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Buy rocks cheap! (Read 7005 times)
4accord
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Buy rocks cheap!
Mar 9th, 2009 at 9:00pm
 
For those who don't want to buy golf balls, can't make lead balls, don't like tennis balls...there is hope!  I just got back from the stone yard - you know, for landscaping - and could buy my pick of gorgeous round stones for what worked out to about 3 cents each.  I think they charged 9 cents a pound.  I don't live near a good source of river rock, so this is helpful for me.  I wanted to have the experience of at least a few throws with carefully selected, weighed, and matched stones.  Thought to share the excitement.  One could, of course, paint them and try to find them again after slinging, which would make the 3 cents go even further, so to speak!
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wellslung
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #1 - Mar 10th, 2009 at 2:23am
 
I was thinking of doing something like or maybe buying a bag of readymix cement and hand shaping a bunch of little footballs. Might be fun with the kids.
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walter
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #2 - Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:27pm
 
I've got az geodes. We call'em brain rocks. 3 - 5 oz. Spray paint em and you can recover your ammo!

Walter
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #3 - Mar 11th, 2009 at 11:56am
 
I bought a bag of rocks from walmart for about $2.00. It was a 40 pound bag. I needed it to fill in the area where my dog goes potty, but noticed that almost all the rocks worked great for slinging.
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #4 - Mar 15th, 2009 at 4:35am
 
eeeww. hope you washed them off Grin Wink
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #5 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 10:26am
 
Update: buying a bucket of round stones at the stone yard has turned out to be a very good move.  Since then, I have sorted and weighed a dozen or so in each weight class.  I found that stones under 75 grams are too light for effective slinging (for me), and same for those over 150 grams - too heavy.  So, it seems that about 2.5-5 ounces are ideal for me.  I have sorted these into three groups: 75-100g, 100-125, and 125-150.  I painted them in three different colors to help retrieve them, which has worked very well - haven't lost a single one.  I also (and this may be the most important) am finding that accuracy and point of impact changes with the weights....that when I use the same sling, wind-up and throw, the rocks go right about where I want them when the sling fits me and the ammo fits me.  No doubt another slinger would prefer a different weight, sling, length, style, grip....  But this proved to me that we have to each determine our own variables.  The sweet smack of my rock on a bucket set 30 paces out told me that, yes, I can do this (if only once in a while).  

In rifle shooting, we learn to look not only for where they hit but also for how tightly they group.  In slinging, I could see this same thing - not only were they starting to go where I was aiming, much more so than with lighter, heavier or unsorted rocks, but they were also grouping much tighter.  They also did not have the pronounced tendency to curve that I see with tennis balls, tuff balls, and golf balls.  Now the rest is fine tuning through practice.
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #6 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 2:29am
 
Very good and systematic approach. I love the idea of colour coding the stones according to weight. As a rifle shooter you know the importance of consistent ammunition and consistent groups rather than chasing the error all over the target.
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #7 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 9:10am
 
Thanks, Aussie.  Yes! [and my favorite rifle is a 1916 Lithgow SMLE].  The same process happens in archery, but people using powerful bows won't see the difference because powerful bows will eat any arrows you feed them.  But light bows are very fussy about the arrows that work or don't, and it has to do with spline - the flex of the arrow as it begins its flight.  A poor match of arrow and bow, even to a good archer, will go off who knows where.

Atlatlists see the same thing with the fit of the dart to the flex of the atlatl (spline), and it also has to do with the balance (weight forward) of the dart and the style of the atlatlist.  So, I am seeing the same principles with slings and rocks.  In all cases, we are looking for that ideal blend of vectors and forces that will result in the desired trajectory and force of impact.  Ultimately, it's all physics - can't be anything else - and our challenge as slingers is to narow the variables to achieve consistency.  Once we're truly consistent (a theoretical ideal), it only becomes a matter of varying the point of aim (just like adjusting the sights on your rifle once you see where they hit, so they hit where you are looking).  At least that's the state of my understanding at this early point in time.
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #8 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 11:41pm
 
I see we are of one-accord. Poor quality stones not only fly differently due to windplaning etc. They also come out of the sling in an unpredictable manner as the stone hangs up in the pouch.  (A Lithgow SMLE in the US! Must be quite a rarity.)
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #9 - Mar 21st, 2009 at 3:57am
 
wellslung wrote on Mar 10th, 2009 at 2:23am:
I was thinking of doing something like or maybe buying a bag of readymix cement and hand shaping a bunch of little footballs. Might be fun with the kids.

I actually wound up doing this, but by myself. I spent maybe an hour and filled up a bucket of about just over a hundred little bullets, which I spray painted red. It was pretty good, spent $4 on the bag of cement and used probably less than a quarter of the bag, but I want to give one very serious warning to any of you out there who may consider trying this. Wear gloves! Now I work with cement all the time without gloves so I foolishly took it for granted, but by the next day my hands were so dried out I literally started losing a whole layer of skin. I could only imagine what it would do to the soft tender skin of a child so I'm glad I didn't invite them to help me. So thats all, wear some kid of rubber or latex gloves for you own sake even if you're as rugged as I am.
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #10 - Mar 21st, 2009 at 9:50am
 
Aussie wrote on Mar 20th, 2009 at 11:41pm:
Poor quality stones not only fly differently due to windplaning etc. They also come out of the sling in an unpredictable manner as the stone hangs up in the pouch.


Thanks, Aussie, for the explanation.  I don't really understand WHY some rocks head south and north while others go where you want them...so I appreciate your thinking this through with me.  I suspect, at least with lightweight ammo, it's also a critical minimum grip - like, without enough weight in the pouch, the pouch doesn't hold the stone securely enough to throw it consistently (and this will vary with the style of the individual slinger - for me, I might lose the necessary control with 50 grams or below, and someone else with 40 or below).  Otherwise, it's like throwing a ball with soap on your hands.  I know in darts, my game goes all to Hades if my hands are too cold, so then I go to a fatter dart (brass), which has a cost in accuracy but is better than a skinny tungsten dart I can't control because I can't grip it properly.

Similar for heavy stones (for me, anything over 150 grams, but for others, maybe 200).  If the stones are too heavy for me, I lose accuracy because I don't have the strength to heave them.  Same with throwing knives.  I quit because I am useless at 20 feet, even though I do pretty well at 8, 11, and 14; I just don't have the strength to accurately throw that weight of knife that far away.  So, when a slinger steps up with a heavy stone, does he still have enough reserves to maintain the control he has with a lighter stone?  Otherwise, it's like throwing darts that are too heavy (some love a 30 gram, others do best with an 18...most with a 23-26).  A light bow loses effectiveness if the arrows are too heavy; rifles have their own favorite combination of powder type and amount, bullet weight and diameter, and overall cartridge length.

I think we're on to something here - of accord, you might say.
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #11 - Mar 28th, 2009 at 12:50pm
 
Nah, They (Lithgow SMLEs) are around, but ya defiantely had to know where to look for them when they hit the market about 10-15 years ago, ( Mine is a 1941). Like all surplus supplies they eventually dried up.

To get this back on topic, if you look at some of my posts I mentioned buying round rocks at hardware and DIY stores multiple times. In my area a 40 lb bag of rocks will normally go from 4-6 dollars depending on the size of the rocks. I use "river rocks" for my regular slings and what are called "Pond Pebbles" for my Iberian slings. both of these are rounded rocks

I have used landscaping marble chips as well. due to thier irrgular size they were fun to cast but extremly erratic in flight and range.


Aussie wrote on Mar 20th, 2009 at 11:41pm:
I see we are of one-accord. Poor quality stones not only fly differently due to windplaning etc. They also come out of the sling in an unpredictable manner as the stone hangs up in the pouch.  (A Lithgow SMLE in the US! Must be quite a rarity.)

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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #12 - Mar 28th, 2009 at 12:56pm
 

Accord,

Trick is to be able to send those heavier rocks down range. Dealing with 200-500g rocks that my replica Iberian Slings are used with defiantely don't get the same range out of them that I do with lighter rocks but I still get a decent flight out of them, and they make a nice heavy sound when they impact.

Don't worry if ya can't ever get the large stones to fly as far as ya want them to, enjoy the hades out slinging the lighter stones. This is a recreational hobby for most of us Smiley

Marc Adkins

4accord wrote on Mar 21st, 2009 at 9:50am:
Aussie wrote on Mar 20th, 2009 at 11:41pm:
Poor quality stones not only fly differently due to windplaning etc. They also come out of the sling in an unpredictable manner as the stone hangs up in the pouch.


Thanks, Aussie, for the explanation.  I don't really understand WHY some rocks head south and north while others go where you want them...so I appreciate your thinking this through with me.  I suspect, at least with lightweight ammo, it's also a critical minimum grip - like, without enough weight in the pouch, the pouch doesn't hold the stone securely enough to throw it consistently (and this will vary with the style of the individual slinger - for me, I might lose the necessary control with 50 grams or below, and someone else with 40 or below).  Otherwise, it's like throwing a ball with soap on your hands.  I know in darts, my game goes all to Hades if my hands are too cold, so then I go to a fatter dart (brass), which has a cost in accuracy but is better than a skinny tungsten dart I can't control because I can't grip it properly.

Similar for heavy stones (for me, anything over 150 grams, but for others, maybe 200).  If the stones are too heavy for me, I lose accuracy because I don't have the strength to heave them.  Same with throwing knives.  I quit because I am useless at 20 feet, even though I do pretty well at 8, 11, and 14; I just don't have the strength to accurately throw that weight of knife that far away.  So, when a slinger steps up with a heavy stone, does he still have enough reserves to maintain the control he has with a lighter stone?  Otherwise, it's like throwing darts that are too heavy (some love a 30 gram, others do best with an 18...most with a 23-26).  A light bow loses effectiveness if the arrows are too heavy; rifles have their own favorite combination of powder type and amount, bullet weight and diameter, and overall cartridge length.

I think we're on to something here - of accord, you might say.

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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #13 - Mar 28th, 2009 at 5:10pm
 
I'm going to try something similar.  Not far from where I live, where I sometimes fish there's a very beautiful river called the Mullica.  There are a few places there, especially one, where you can dig up all of the good quality clay that you want.  I'm going to bring home a big bucket of it the next time I go fishing there and try making my own ammo.  Has anyone done this before?  I'm going to trial and error it but if anyone can shorten the process with some good advice based on experience I'd appreciate it.  I'm going to make them approximately the size of an extra large egg since that's my favorite rock size. 
   My two biggest questions are 1:  Which shape is the best?  I know that my projectiles will be some sort of variation of an oval, but I'm just sure if I should make pure ovals, football shaped with rounded ends, or football shaped with pointed ends. 
2:  Would it help to bake the projectiles.  I've made objects from this clay before and they've dried hard using just sunlight, but is there an advantage to baking them, like would they be harder, more dense, etc.. 
   I've read about using clay projectiles and I know that they have a similar density to stone so they'd have about the same hitting power also.  I'll report back and let you all know how it goes.  Who knows, if it's a total success maybe I'll start my own business.  "Rat Man's clay sling bullets!"  Get 'em while they're hot!!!  lol
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Re: Buy rocks cheap!
Reply #14 - Mar 28th, 2009 at 5:56pm
 
IMHO the best shape for projectiles boils down to either spherical or oval.

Oval should fly further than spherical for equivalent mass because it has a higher sectional density so retains velocity better, BUT this is only true if thrown so it flies point forward, spinning like a bullet.

If you can't get a predictable spin then spherical is better than a tumbling oval projectile. Smooth stones and clay balls are subject to curving in flight due to unwanted spin, (Magnus effect), but much less so than golf balls.

Oval projectiles sit better if laid across the pouch and are less likely to move or fall out during windup. Pouches for spherical ammo really need to be slightly cupped or soft enough to securely grip the round shape. Of course projectile orientation is irrelevant so reloading is marginally quicker.

As to the actual degree of "pointiness", I doubt that there would be an appreciable difference but probably not too pointy as it may be a little fragile. Egg shaped should be perfect.

If your clay is suitable for firing or baking it would probably make them harder but also increase the likelihood of cracking. I doubt it would make any difference to performance so unless you intend using them for actual hunting or warfare it's probably not worth the effort for something that will have a working life of a couple of seconds or so.
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