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Fig.8 Comanche Style (Read 15590 times)
Jonas.N
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #30 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 7:23am
 
Come to think about it this style is like the "lazy" version of a "standard" fig.8 (as shown on wiki). IMO even improved since the "standard" takes more arm-movement. With the comanche the single revolution comes naturally while in fig.8 it's produced mechanically with a seperate, twirling, or at least less consisistent motion.

Peacefuljeffrey:
Quote:
I was attempting the "Comanche" style as described here lately, and I think I was doing it. Actually, I have to say that I was pretty darn successful at it.  Decent accuracy (at this point, for me, that means getting them to go forward, within about 20 degrees of target, I guess) and decent distance (no way to measure it, but estimated at approaching 100 yards at times.


Good to see others find it useful as well Smiley What length sling did you use?

David:
Quote:
Yesterday I tried a couple of gentle sidearm throws without releasing the sling just to get a feel for it and see if it would work. I found that on the release arc I was getting some up and down oscillations as the pouch went through the release point. I gave up and stuck to the overhand. Advancing the timing of the throw would probably help here. If the pouch never gets under the plane of release then there wont be any oscillation.


Timing really is of the essence in this throw. To make a side-arm throw with this helix-like technique I found it useful to raise up and hold the throwing hand higher than normally in the beginning of the throw. Just realised that's just what you said. That evens out the oscillations pretty nicely though. Tongue
Another thing I found concerning oscillations is the importance of starting the throw slowly, then at the right moment throw, thus creating a good whip. The circle one makes behind ones back should be much smaller than in "standard" fig.8. In the video it almost looks like he throws the pouch straight down behind his back, then just rips it forward with no circle at all. This small circle I think is the key and power to and of the technique.

Best regards
Jonas
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peacefuljeffrey
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #31 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 5:00pm
 
It's a paracord sling approximately 30" from loop to cradle (5.5 ft. overall length including cradle).

It's about the most ideal length for me in terms of comfort in use, at this point.
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Rockman
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #32 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:53pm
 
I was wondering what is the advantage of a figure 8 style over other styles.
Figure 8 looks good, but is it better than a simple greek release?
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #33 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 1:40am
 
These judgements are always subjective but in my opinion the Fig.8 is better in several ways. It allows a longer sling and has more initial windup, both of which mean a higher release velocity. On the negative side it requires a little more space so if slinging near trees, bushes etc. there is a greater likelihood of snagging. In a hunting scenario there is also a slightly longer gap between commencing the throw and the release so more chance of spooking game. (This is pretty much only a theoretical disadvantage of course.)

Most people seem to have a bit of trouble learning it but find it very natural after the initial period, self definitely included. At first I found accuracy down compared with Greek style but now am better with Fig.8 and rarely use anything else.
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peacefuljeffrey
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #34 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 1:42am
 
At times recently when I tried Figure-8, I found that the issue of not hitting myself in the back caused me to have to assume an odd posture that failed to facilitate the development of any significant power.  Strangely, the Comanche, which is sort of like the Figure-8, I have no problem with.

I guess that the Figure-8 has the advantage of adding most of a circle to the acceleration of the throw, although in my own experience it really doesn't seem to matter until the last final whip of acceleration, which is why other styles achieve plenty of power.  Of course, I must avow that I am a newbie, and don't have extensive experience with any of these styles.

I like the Greek style.  I can use it successfully.  But I think I found that when I tried out Comanche last night, the overhand release aided my lateral accuracy.
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Jonas.N
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #35 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 8:20am
 
Rockman wrote on Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:53pm:
I was wondering what is the advantage of a figure 8 style over other styles.
Figure 8 looks good, but is it better than a simple greek release?


Greek style, side-arm, is in my experience easy to obtain accuracy with. The fig.8 sort of styles, like the comanche, are a bit harder getting accurate with, yet the power is greater than with the greek style. Also the fig.8 styles allow one to move the arm during the throw more freely and further back than the Greek. This is just my experience, and I use quite short slings. Don't know if that matters.

Jeffrey: Thanks, I'll have to try it with a longer sling later as well.

Best regards
Jonas
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winkleried
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #36 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 5:44pm
 
Million Dollar Question, I am reporting second hand what the authors of the articles were reporting what the Tribes were telling them.

I was going to try and get a few more articles, And then post the Question to the Project Goliath Section and see if us history Geeks could come up with an answer. but I lost access to JSTOR.

May still do it with the extremely few articles I have. Now I will admit the answer was extremly similar from eastern Tribes all the way up to the Inuit tribe.

Also all were describing the leather thong and pouch sling.

Marc Adkins
[/quote]

What is wrong with his sling? Why consider it a toy? [/quote]
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David Morningstar
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #37 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:06pm
 
winkleried wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 5:44pm:
Million Dollar Question, I am reporting second hand what the authors of the articles were reporting what the Tribes were telling them.

I was going to try and get a few more articles, And then post the Question to the Project Goliath Section and see if us history Geeks could come up with an answer. but I lost access to JSTOR.

May still do it with the extremely few articles I have. Now I will admit the answer was extremly similar from eastern Tribes all the way up to the Inuit tribe.

Also all were describing the leather thong and pouch sling.

Marc Adkins
Quote:
What is wrong with his sling? Why consider it a toy?



And the answer was.....?

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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #38 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 9:09pm
 
I don't Know, which was why I was going to send it to the Project Goliath crew and see if we could put our collective heads to gather to figure it out.

Marc Adkins


David Morningstar wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:06pm:
And the answer was.....?


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peacefuljeffrey
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #39 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 9:10pm
 
David Morningstar wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:06pm:
And the answer was.....?



Available for the low, low price of only $39.95 plus shipping and handling!!   Grin
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #40 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 1:20pm
 
No video camera at this time, Sorry. Looks like Brian is going to have to carry the weight for us on this one.
No white flag necessary Aussie, this is just a standard debate.

You did make a good point in that LKF article is lacking certain details. Like most slinging styles they are extremely undocumented until the later quarter of the last century. Then this forum came out and things started snowballing.

One just has to look in some pretty strange place to find the various pieces of the puzzle and then try fitting them togather.

Yes I am looking for documentation for Native American Slinging Styles, to either confirm or deny the Apache and now the "Commanche"

Dang didn't realise they were concentrated Around the Lawton Oklahoma area. That area is more famous for the apache. But then again it's also the area around Ft. Sill ( Which is still an active Military Base) so that kinnda makes sense ( Keep your enemies close sort of thing)

I will try and post my references on the Goliath Section maybe by sunday...............

Marc Adkins

[quote author=aussieslinger link=1223285825/15#24 date=1223443561
Great! Let me reiterate my request to Brian. Make a video of yourself or at least get an accurate measurement of your stone speed using the recorded sound method over a distance of 10 m or so.

Better still if you can get some independent verification of the Apache, or for that matter, any Native American slinging styles I would LOVE to hear about it. Didn't the Comanche nation originally inhabit the territory of Oklahoma? May be right next door to you.

BTW All you Apache users out there with your hackles raised, "Peace and Goodwill from Down Under!" I am not in any way opposed to Apache. If you are getting good results and/or having fun all the best to you. All I would really like to know is that our understanding of Apache is really what Grandfather was using. [/quote]
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #41 - Oct 10th, 2008 at 11:07pm
 
  I should have some time tomorrow to shoot some video.  I'll get it up as soon as possible.  As far as estimating speed goes... I'll post the video up and you guys can work that out Wink
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #42 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 2:06am
 
[quote author=aussieslinger link=1223285825/15#24 date=1223443561]

BTW All you Apache users out there with your hackles raised, "Peace and Goodwill from Down Under!" I am not in any way opposed to Apache. If you are getting good results and/or having fun all the best to you. All I would really like to know is that our understanding of Apache is really what Grandfather was using.[/quote]

Don't worry Aussi, I didn't take any offence either. I too want to know if our understanding of the Apache throw matches what Grandfather used. I also look forward to Brian and/or Marc making videos of their throws (remember that most digital cameras today can record videos (but please put in on a tripod or equivalent structure)). I would like to get some more Apache examples before finally finishing an article about it.

Back to the topic at hand, I still have not been able to figure out the exact motion of the Comanche technique. I just got a copy of the video from youtube (google for "all in one bookmarklet" for a script to do this) in flash video format. The video players I have don't allow for playing frame by frame, but hopefully I can convert the file format tomorrow and get it into the video editing software I am using, where I will have some hope to see what he is doing.

Has anybody found any way to contact the author to see if he would answer questions? Also it would be nice to get permission to put up a slow motion video of his throw if I can create one.
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #43 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 3:58am
 
I have been looking at the video some more and I will have to change my throw as a result. The throw is actually a kind of diagonal between overarm and sidearm and the path of the pouch is high but not overhead. My own throw so far has been overarm with a very overhead trajectory.

Of course, it might also be that he has had to modify his style over the years to compensate for his increasing seniority. If we could contact him somehow and get more information that would be awesome!


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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #44 - Oct 11th, 2008 at 5:17am
 
One of our members has written to the gentleman and had a favourable response. Of course he posted his video on YouTube which is a public forum and anyone is free to comment on his material or contact him as they choose however in the interests of propriety it may be preferable if we don't all inundate the man and post all comments/questions on this forum.
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