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Fig.8 Comanche Style (Read 15593 times)
David Morningstar
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #15 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 5:57pm
 
peacefuljeffrey wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:53pm:
Even though I think that the Figure-8 style looks really cool with its flourish-y motion, I have not really gotten it working.  Yeah, I've hit myself in the back on slow practice throws.


Been there, done that. You feel like a right prat when there's a family and two dogs watching you from just up the beach...

Quote:
I do like the way this guy's Comanche style looks, and the results seem to be worth the effort to try it out, so I will, when I have the time.



Make the time! Or, spend more time in the office. Your call.

Quote:
It looks to me from the video that a major feature of this style is that the thrower is much more forward facing than with the "traditional" Figure-8.  Anyone agree with that



Thats not the difference of the Comanche style. The difference is the angle of the windup compared to the direction of the throw. It is easier to be more forward facing using this style but you would lose some throwing power doing so. No biggie.

Quote:
I just don't know how to manage the transition from the plane of the spin to the plane of the release.  What exactly is the plane of the release?



The plane of release is mostly vertical. To get from spin to release you just throw... *** AT THE RIGHT TIME!!!! ***

The timing of the start of the throw is vital to the final trajectory.  Timing the release is just the usual parcel of fun.

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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #16 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:25pm
 
Hey Guys! Been a while since I actually wrote something in this forum.. This is quite similar to the comanche (SIMPLE):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj0r3VqWP4w

I really liked this style, nice find Aussie. Was out throwing rocks for about 2-3 hours today, mostly practising this technique. It worked out very good for me, akward at first as usual, but now it feels really natural. I got pretty good accuracy and force with it. Another good thing with it is it's adjustability, one can easily make over-under-sidearm just changing the throwing movement.

Currently I'm using a very short sling, elbow-to-finger length, about 48 cm that is (yeah, I'm short). Until recently I have mostly casted Greek sidearm style with which accuracy is very good, but power is suffering. Now I've decided to only use the Comanche style. I reckon it's good or even better with longer slings.

Best regards
Jonas
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peacefuljeffrey
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #17 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 9:01pm
 
It appears to me that the windup is done as a sort of tilted-back halo around the head, like an enlargement of a beanie projected up and rearward from the head (is that clear?).  How does one transition the sling from rotating in this plane to making an overhand release??
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #18 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 10:50pm
 
Jeffrey,

  I'm not clear on your question.

              Brett
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #19 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 10:53pm
 
I tried this today with tennis balls and it feels like all of my throws combined.

  Totally confusing...............

                B.T.
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #20 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 12:30am
 
BrianGrubbs wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:07am:
Aussie wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am:
Hi David,

However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.


 I have to dissagree here Aussie.  I've used the apache style a good bit, in fact it's all I used for the first few months of slinging.  I got to the point where I was getting a lot of power out of it, if the bark flying off the trees was any indication.  I gotta run out the door, I'll post more in an hour or so.

 Anyway, as I was saying.  I like the videos that reuben has done, and I think he has the mechanics of it down pretty well.  As far as power goes though, it is possible to get a lot more out of it.  I start with a wider stance for one thing, and when I twist around I put a lot more body action into it.  I'll add that to the list of videos I need to make, 'cause like you said, it's hard to describe the slinging action using words.


Greetings Brian,

I was hoping you would comment in this thread, especially after reading of your involvement in both teaching and the native american festival. Let me second your proposal to make a video of yourself doing Apache. May I request it be done with a stone of sufficient size to be a viable hunting projectile (say 2-3 oz.) and at a target a measured distance from your front foot. If the sound of the sling and the stone hitting the target can be heard it will be easy to calculate the average velocity. Anything over 40 m/s would be very good. Perhaps my own lack of success with this style is due to the fact that I have some arthritis in both shoulder and elbow and have never been particularly athletic, rather than to a deficiency in the style itself.

Like Wanderer I have been a wonderer about Apache's apparent similarity to fast bowling in cricket. However cricket bowling action is not a natural throwing action; it is necessitated by rules that state the elbow may not be bent at the time the ball is released. Additionally a bowler is running at full speed as he releases the ball, very different from a no-step Apache throw. BTW I have noticed that when fielding even specialist bowlers will usually return the ball with just a normal throw not a bowling action.

(For all you mystified Americans, cricket is a bat and ball game broadly similar to baseball.)

Regards,

Aussie.
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #21 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 12:52am
 
I'm going to agree with Brian here. I'm also starting to get some power out of it myself. Still fairly short range but I dang sure wouldn't want to get by my rocks in that range.

Marc Adkins


BrianGrubbs wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:07am:
Aussie wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am:
Hi David,

However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.


 I have to dissagree here Aussie.  I've used the apache style a good bit, in fact it's all I used for the first few months of slinging.  I got to the point where I was getting a lot of power out of it, if the bark flying off the trees was any indication.  I gotta run out the door, I'll post more in an hour or so.

 Anyway, as I was saying.  I like the videos that reuben has done, and I think he has the mechanics of it down pretty well.  As far as power goes though, it is possible to get a lot more out of it.  I start with a wider stance for one thing, and when I twist around I put a lot more body action into it.  I'll add that to the list of videos I need to make, 'cause like you said, it's hard to describe the slinging action using words.

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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #22 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 12:59am
 
Quote:
Jeffrey,

  I'm not clear on your question.

              Brett


Well, it just seems like the original rotation of the sling is on a plane like a rotor on a helicopter that is slowing its forward speed; and then the last section of the rotation is sort of overhand.  How does one so rapidly redirect the force of the rotation into that new direction for the release?  It seems like there is too drastic a change in direction, too quickly.
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #23 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 1:11am
 
Aussie, There is just so much about his story that is sending off alarm bells. Maybe it's all those years dodging martial arts advertising, ( Ya know the super secrect death moves taught by the last master of ......) You get the gist maybe he is telling the truth........Maybe not. I would love to see more.

We have proof of native american slinging for a lot longer than this century. Oh yeah another area I am haveing probblems with is the type of sling he is using is considered a toy by the tribes that I have some documentation for. ( Alright it's a very limited number but it's amazing consistant). I'll post the titles and other information when I get back to my hard copy references.

Where are you getting Figure 8 outta LKFs article? He's pretty specific about the straight arm over shot.

"very quickly swing your arm and sling up from behind you and over the top in an overhand throw while attempting to keep your arm as straight and long as you can for airspeed. Put your body fully behind it in a fast turning motion similar to a baseball pitcher but without the step. Be aggressive and make all motions as large as you can. It's usually harder to correct a bad habit than to learn it right the first time. You may try a forward step as you throw but I believe you'll find that it slows you down. The body motion requires more twisting than an Atlatl or Tomahawk throw.

The whole action is over from start to stop in less than a second and the arm has swung less than 360 degrees. If your muscles are not used to this motion, start slow and work up to speed over a period of time. Speed and accuracy will only come with daily practice and everyone, male and female is a potential master. "



Now I do agree that Forsyths article is lacking some needed details but you have to remember he was writing almost 40 years after the fact and Grandfather was almost 70 at the time. There is probably a whole lot that happened during that time that father time has erased in his endless march

Marc Adkins



He doesn't call it a sling/slingshot because that's what his Comanche mentor asked him. As he does not seem to make the clear distinction between sling and slingshot that we do here on slinging.org perhaps he insists on stone thrower to avoid confusion.

However what got me particularly excited is that here at last we have a living primary source for Native American slinging, who goes back 20 years earlier than Forsyth. Also I know that Comanche isn't Apache but certainly in the same general part of the world, so perhaps we can at last find out exactly what constitutes Apache style. For some time I have had a suspicion that Forsyth's description is missing detail and that Apache is actually some variation of hanging pouch start Fig.8. [/quote]
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #24 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 1:26am
 
winkleried wrote on Oct 8th, 2008 at 12:52am:
I'm going to agree with Brian here. I'm also starting to get some power out of it myself. Still fairly short range but I dang sure wouldn't want to get by my rocks in that range.

Marc Adkins


BrianGrubbs wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:07am:
Aussie wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am:
Hi David,

However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.


 I have to dissagree here Aussie.  I've used the apache style a good bit, in fact it's all I used for the first few months of slinging.  I got to the point where I was getting a lot of power out of it, if the bark flying off the trees was any indication.  I gotta run out the door, I'll post more in an hour or so.

 Anyway, as I was saying.  I like the videos that reuben has done, and I think he has the mechanics of it down pretty well.  As far as power goes though, it is possible to get a lot more out of it.  I start with a wider stance for one thing, and when I twist around I put a lot more body action into it.  I'll add that to the list of videos I need to make, 'cause like you said, it's hard to describe the slinging action using words.



Great! Let me reiterate my request to Brian. Make a video of yourself or at least get an accurate measurement of your stone speed using the recorded sound method over a distance of 10 m or so.

Better still if you can get some independent verification of the Apache, or for that matter, any Native American slinging styles I would LOVE to hear about it. Didn't the Comanche nation originally inhabit the territory of Oklahoma? May be right next door to you.

BTW All you Apache users out there with your hackles raised, "Peace and Goodwill from Down Under!" I am not in any way opposed to Apache. If you are getting good results and/or having fun all the best to you. All I would really like to know is that our understanding of Apache is really what Grandfather was using.
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #25 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 1:29am
 
peacefuljeffrey wrote on Oct 8th, 2008 at 12:59am:
Well, it just seems like the original rotation of the sling is on a plane like a rotor on a helicopter that is slowing its forward speed; and then the last section of the rotation is sort of overhand.  How does one so rapidly redirect the force of the rotation into that new direction for the release?  It seems like there is too drastic a change in direction, too quickly.


The windup is a helix running from front to back. The axis of rotation points approximately towards the target. You are absolutely right there is a rapid change of rotation when the throw happens. This is exactly where the power comes from.

When you throw there is a very strong whipping action you can feel. The stone has to accelerate hard to keep up with your hand because its speed and direction start out being so different from the movement dictated by your hand.

All you have to do is throw, but the caveat is that you have to make that throw at the right time to get the right trajectory.

Watch the guy in the blue tshirt, second and third clip on the compilation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rNRlXv2Ms His last throw is different and does not apply to this example.

Its exactly the same throw. He uses multiple windup spins behind the body, Comanche uses a single helical windup starting in front and ending behind. The throw happens with the pouch in the same place, about 3 o'clock. The final trajectory ends up 90 degrees away from the plane of rotation.
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #26 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 1:45am
 
Jonas.N wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:25pm:
Hey Guys! Been a while since I actually wrote something in this forum.. This is quite similar to the comanche (SIMPLE):


I really liked this style, nice find Aussie. Was out throwing rocks for about 2-3 hours today, mostly practising this technique. It worked out very good for me, akward at first as usual, but now it feels really natural. I got pretty good accuracy and force with it. Another good thing with it is it's adjustability, one can easily make over-under-sidearm just changing the throwing movement.

Currently I'm using a very short sling, elbow-to-finger length, about 48 cm that is (yeah, I'm short). Until recently I have mostly casted Greek sidearm style with which accuracy is very good, but power is suffering. Now I've decided to only use the Comanche style. I reckon it's good or even better with longer slings.

Best regards
Jonas


Well spotted! What Hondero is doing with the 'Simple' style is basically the Comanche using a sidearm throw.

Yesterday I tried a couple of gentle sidearm throws without releasing the sling just to get a feel for it and see if it would work. I found that on the release arc I was getting some up and down oscillations as the pouch went through the release point. I gave up and stuck to the overhand. Advancing the timing of the throw would probably help here. If the pouch never gets under the plane of release then there wont be any oscillation.

I will make a monkey fist around a golf ball and try that again. It will be a useful practice technique for me when I dont have somewhere I can actually throw, which is almost all the time!
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #27 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 1:46am
 
Aussieslinger

There is no mention that grandfather was saying that the "Apache Style"Was used to kill deer.

"To the best of his knowledge, his Mescalaro tribe had been using slings for centuries for hunting or combat and could kill a deer or warrior with equal ease"

Using slings does not mean that they were only using the "Apache Style" In thier efforts .

Although I can see a stone cast in this manner (Apache Style) killing a human. I am basing this claim strictly on the state of late 19th century early 20th century medicine. I never sid it would instantly kill just that it would eventually kill. 

Again we have no evidence that the native american slingers used the "Figure-8".In a similar vein we have no evidence either that they didn't use it. I think you are going in the right direction on your belief that figure-8 is an American Style based on the evidence out there of family members teaching it to thier young.

Unfortunately unless we can document with no ( Or Almost no) uncertainity that this training took place before before 5/1/ 1985 then we have no way of knowing for sure if the technique in question was influenced by Lynn Ballards Article in the Mother Earth News. This Article as Far as I know is the earliest one in which the Figure 8 is described. Korfmann in his seminal 1973 article ( for example) only illustrated the underhand throw

After seeing both videos. I would agree that his primary intrest is in the Atlatl. I am not buying the "combined-arms concept" of slingers protecting spearmen during a large animal hunt. My understanding is that the atlatl has a greater range than he is showing in his little demonstration os slinging against a rock face.

I have got to get to bed, we will continue this later

Marc Adkins

Aussie wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am:
Hi David,

. However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.

Whatever the case this gentleman is a living treasure and I am just itching to hear all he has to say on the subject, though I think his primary interest is the atlatl. As far a naming rights for the style, I certainly think that honour should go to him.

Regards,

Aussie

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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #28 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 2:53am
 
I left work at about 02:00 Wednesday, and when I got to my street, I drove past my house to the end of the street where it meets the Intracoastal Waterway.  I stood on the sidewalk along the seawall and must've shot about 30 or so golf balls into the drink.  (Eeeew, the idea of drinking that water...  Undecided )

I was attempting the "Comanche" style as described here lately, and I think I was doing it. Actually, I have to say that I was pretty damn successful at it.  Decent accuracy (at this point, for me, that means getting them to go forward, within about 20 degrees of target, I guess) and decent distance (no way to measure it, but estimated at approaching 100 yards at times.

I'll be practicing this technique with my ... um ... "aitsikko."
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #29 - Oct 8th, 2008 at 5:22am
 
winkleried wrote on Oct 8th, 2008 at 1:11am:
  Oh yeah another area I am haveing probblems with is the type of sling he is using is considered a toy by the tribes that I have some documentation for. ( Alright it's a very limited number but it's amazing consistant). I'll post the titles and other information when I get back to my hard copy references.



What is wrong with his sling? Why consider it a toy?
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