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Fig.8 Comanche Style (Read 10752 times)
Aussie
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Fig.8 Comanche Style
Oct 6th, 2008 at 5:37am
 
Have a look at this elderly gentleman slinging with what he calls a "stonethrower" as taught to him by a Comanche Indian nearly 70 years ago. The style is almost exactly Fig.8! An absolutely fascinating clip and easy to miss as he purposely avoids using the name slingshot or sling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaIT9HcnVqg



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« Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2008 at 6:50am by Aussie »  

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Re: Fig.8 Comanchee Style
Reply #1 - Oct 6th, 2008 at 5:59am
 
The old man has good form,accuracy and power.He looks natural and relaxed,and altogether much more convincing than the "Apache" stuff going around.

  Thanks Aussie,

                    Brett
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #2 - Oct 6th, 2008 at 6:53am
 
What a great find. Get him on the forum immediately! Smiley
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #3 - Oct 6th, 2008 at 8:10am
 
lol - it's hard to stay humble when you're feeling this smug Smiley

Wonder why he never called it a sling though - odd that. And yep that's definitely fig8.
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #4 - Oct 6th, 2008 at 8:18am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 6th, 2008 at 8:10am:
lol - it's hard to stay humble when you're feeling this smug Smiley

About what? - in particular? Cheesy
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #5 - Oct 6th, 2008 at 8:43am
 
Its a figure-8 turned around 90 degrees. The rotation is in front then behind and the throw is out of the plane of rotation.

Since the historical provenance is about as good as it gets, and it is distinctly different from its closest similar style, I propose we adopt this as the Comanche style.

I dont want to see this just chucked into the big figure-8 melting pot, especially since the figure-8 has no particular historical or ethnographic link.

Nice one Aussie, this is a fantastic find!
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #6 - Oct 6th, 2008 at 1:47pm
 
awsome find did you check out part two where are the wooly mamoths i and my sling are a going hunting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmIS1-kQFHo&feature=related
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #7 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 2:18am
 
Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 6th, 2008 at 8:10am:
lol - it's hard to stay humble when you're feeling this smug Smiley

Wonder why he never called it a sling though - odd that. And yep that's definitely fig8.


Recalling recent discussions about everything tasting like chicken I was specifically guarded about calling it Fig.8 unequivocally. It is slightly different from the demonstrations by Nwmanitou and Mark Weaver but IMHO well within being merely a personal interpretation not a different style. Still great to get your personal blessing on the matter, C-A.

He doesn't call it a sling/slingshot because that's what his Comanche mentor asked him. As he does not seem to make the clear distinction between sling and slingshot that we do here on slinging.org perhaps he insists on stone thrower to avoid confusion.

However what got me particularly excited is that here at last we have a living primary source for Native American slinging, who goes back 20 years earlier than Forsyth. Also I know that Comanche isn't Apache but certainly in the same general part of the world, so perhaps we can at last find out exactly what constitutes Apache style. For some time I have had a suspicion that Forsyth's description is missing detail and that Apache is actually some variation of hanging pouch start Fig.8.
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #8 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 2:46am
 
I reckon it is our duty to preserve and respect the historical source of this style, which is why it merits being named as a style in its own right.

Also, throwing out of the plane of rotation is a big conceptual step and brings practical consequences too, since the timing of the start of the forward throw becomes far more critical for the final trajectory.

With luck and good weather I will try and do some Comanche style slinging of tennis balls in the park at lunchtime.

At the risk of veering slightly off-topic:

I am confident that we have got the Apache throw correct. The description "very quickly swing your arm and sling up from behind you and over the top in an overhand throw while attempting to keep your arm as straight and long as you can for airspeed" doesnt suggest and kind of fig-8 to me.

The relatively awkward elements of the Apache throw are dictated by tactical considerations, i.e. the need to get the stone flying before your prey can react. Considered purely on throwing terms, its not great. Considered as a package intended to put meat on the table, it makes a lot of sense.


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« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:06am by David Morningstar »  
 
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #9 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am
 
Hi David,

Generally I agree with your point of view and  have posted extensively on this subject before hoping that someone would be able to come up with some other primary source for Apache style. The only other that has come to light so far is a small partial clip of an Inuit kid slinging at some seagulls using what appears to be Apache. At first I took this as an independent verification but it has also been pointed out the kid was very young and his throwing may have been a youngsters flailing attempt rather than an accurate copy of a style taught by adults. I also know how hard it is to accurately describe any action in words alone. Reuben's fine video clip of his interpretation of Apache certainly appears to follow Forsyth's description. However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.

Whatever the case this gentleman is a living treasure and I am just itching to hear all he has to say on the subject, though I think his primary interest is the atlatl. As far a naming rights for the style, I certainly think that honour should go to him.

Regards,

Aussie
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #10 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 7:07am
 
Aussie wrote on Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:59am:
Hi David,

However I just can't imagine being able to sling hard enough to kill a deer or a human being using that style and Foryth claims that Grandfather was able to and presumably had done both. Perhaps, just perhaps, our understanding of Forsyth is in error.


 I have to dissagree here Aussie.  I've used the apache style a good bit, in fact it's all I used for the first few months of slinging.  I got to the point where I was getting a lot of power out of it, if the bark flying off the trees was any indication.  I gotta run out the door, I'll post more in an hour or so.

  Anyway, as I was saying.  I like the videos that reuben has done, and I think he has the mechanics of it down pretty well.  As far as power goes though, it is possible to get a lot more out of it.  I start with a wider stance for one thing, and when I twist around I put a lot more body action into it.  I'll add that to the list of videos I need to make, 'cause like you said, it's hard to describe the slinging action using words.
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« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2008 at 8:14am by BrianGrubbs »  

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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #11 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 8:36am
 

A quick field report on Comanche style slinging... WOW!

The slightly longer version... Its easy to get the front to back windup without hitting yourself. The natural pullback of the arm takes care of this. It feels very safe and leaves the throwing arm in a good position.

The key thing seems to be to throw early, maybe 2 or 3 o'clock on the downswing. Too late and the shot pulls to the left. Get it right and the whip overhead is amazing!
This style has serious power.

I have theory on this, which I will think some more about before I risk presenting it.

I used a 30" with tennis balls and one attempt with a 41" and a golf ball which I then had to dig out of the ground six feet in front of me... ooops!

Get out there and thow some Comanche! Smiley
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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #12 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 8:37am
 
Aussie! and you coming from a cricket playing nation Grin

I've tended to view the Apache throw as related to a cricket delivery, as has been mentioned several times by me and others. I started with it, and firmly believe it can be a useful style. I really see no evidence in Forsyth's description that what he saw was a figure eight style. He emphasisted the straight arm, and an apparently much less complex throwing motion than is required by fig-8.

The only thing I find questionable in his description is the degree to which he faces the target. It seems to me that being more side on (closer to a classic cricket delivery) makes much more sense both from the point of view of power and accuracy. That is the main difference between the description and the way I practice the 'Apache' style.



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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #13 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 11:01am
 
As far as this vexed business of chickens, figure-8 etc. Isn't it about time to recognise that there are variations on the figure-8 which are big enough to make them distinct?

If you like, figure-8 describes a set of styles rather than itself being a style. In taxonomic terms - it's a genus not a species Cheesy.

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Re: Fig.8 Comanche Style
Reply #14 - Oct 7th, 2008 at 4:53pm
 
Even though I think that the Figure-8 style looks really cool with its flourish-y motion, I have not really gotten it working.  Yeah, I've hit myself in the back on slow practice throws.  I do like the way this guy's Comanche style looks, and the results seem to be worth the effort to try it out, so I will, when I have the time.

It looks to me from the video that a major feature of this style is that the thrower is much more forward facing than with the "traditional" Figure-8.  Anyone agree with that?

I just don't know how to manage the transition from the plane of the spin to the plane of the release.  What exactly is the plane of the release?

Hey, are we going to start calling these things "aitsikkos" now?

Also, on one of the placards in the video, the knot I've been calling the "release knot" is referred to as the "trigger knot."  I like that a lot, and I think I'll start using it as a replacement. Smiley
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