Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 
Send Topic Print
Re: david and goliath (Read 92324 times)
RoyUK
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 31
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #135 - Aug 20th, 2013 at 9:15pm
 
Hi guys,

Dont really intend to revive this thread as it seems as though it has gone through the mill already, but just reading the tail end here (not read anything before this) has anyone read beyond Biblical sources ? 

Flavius Josephus is writing in the first century AD and without doubt has to be taken seriously way before any manufactured Bibles after his time - especially King James versions. 

Anyhow, my point being here is that he states that Goliath was indeed hit in the forehead and it sunk into the brain - however, he goes on to say Goliath was STUNNED.  Then David runs up and decapitates him when Goliath is down.

I have no doubt the power of the sling against an unarmored man will probably knock him out - maybe kill him but only around 10% of the time.  I have little doubt a heavy pebble thrown from around 100+ feet could gain enough momentum to kill a man, but from a closer range of around 30 feet I am in doubt if this would do anything other than send him unconscious. 

Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Just my thoughts.

Don't mean to be reviving old posts, I am just surfing a site I know nothing of but loving every minute of it! 

Thanks  Smiley

Roy.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Steven
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


RaptorIsAsRaptorDoes

Posts: 2101
Austin, Tx.
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #136 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 3:18pm
 
RoyUK wrote on Aug 20th, 2013 at 9:15pm:
... I have little doubt a heavy pebble thrown from around 100+ feet could gain enough momentum to kill a man, but from a closer range of around 30 feet I am in doubt if this would do anything other than send him unconscious.  ...
Roy.


A thrown projectile does not gain momentum; at the release all of the momentum the projectile has or ever will have (unless ammo has rocket assist) begins to degrade due to drag forces. I always try to throw with the same force, whether the range is 100+ feet or 10+ feet ... the 10 foot shot will arrive with more momentum as the drag forces have had less time to act on the projectile ....
imao ... Wink ... and if that story is not true it should be.

mo·men·tum 
/mōˈmentəm/NounThe quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity.
The impetus gained by a moving object.
Back to top
 

A Curmudgeon@Large Civilly Fomenting Anarchy one post at a time...I don't like it is not a valid reason and Everyone knows is not a valid rule...Hi Ho, Hi Ho Its Off To Work I Go; As Ci-vi-lly As I Can Be Hi Ho, Hi Ho, Hi Ho...
THIS ADVICE IS WORTH WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT.
 
IP Logged
 
Dan
Interfector Viris Spurii
SlingingGuide Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3961
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #137 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 3:55pm
 
Steven answered the momentum question well.


I've only been slinging for a few years and I have no doubt that the sling has enough potential to kill someone easily. David had been slinging his entire life, and was no doubt had more practice time than most of us so I don't doubt his capability/lethality with the sling.

I found this link while doing research for TSG. It goes into the DvsG story quite in depth and I figured yall might appreciate it. Smiley


http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0917.htm
Back to top
 

"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8
 
IP Logged
 
jlasud
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Programming stones

Posts: 2358
Transilvania
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #138 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 5:50am
 
Just an average shot from close range,with a decent "pebble" of 150g ~5.3oz will dent/crack a skull on the forehead part. A good one will implant it into the skull,halfway sticking out. I know that. Period.
Back to top
 

Respect existance or expect resistance!
 
IP Logged
 
RoyUK
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 31
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #139 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 5:13pm
 
Hi guys,

Well put Steve regarding momentum in a straight horizontal plane - but what about slinging downhill as armies generally did, surely the gain in momentum would be considerable at 100 feet and less so at 30 feet.  (Think I am grasping at straws here though lol  Cheesy).

Anyhow, the point of my post was actually about an author whose text is considerably older than the Bible as it came down to us - even the earliest Bible we can find dates to 4th century AD, which is at least 300 years after Flavius Josephus writes. 

The interesting part with Flavius text is the use of the word "stunned" as though Goliath was not actually dead. The context of the passage with David then quickly rushing to decapitate Goliath (armored too) also makes me believe he may only have been stunned.  Remember Goliath was a giant of a man, a tough seasoned veteran, and a veritable giant Achilles-like-champion too, well able to take a knock on the head more than a common man I think, even if it did know him down I think given time he would certainly have killed David - whom he stupidly underestimated.

Thanks Dan for that link I will read it soon.  As a reader of history I prefer to put more weight in older writers rather than later ones, especially where the Bible is concerned.

Like I mentioned in another thread Caesar mentions one of his officers being hit square in the face by a Gaulish Slinger and he was still able to fight - though severely disabled.  With more thought and google searching though I do now think a slingshot is very likely to kill a man outright but only IF hit square in the head without armor - and was not built like old Goliath  Wink


Thanks guys. Smiley
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
squirrelslinger
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


peace through superior
firepower

Posts: 2870
Ky, USA
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #140 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 6:28pm
 
Please don't call slings slingshots. it drives me absolutly insane.


anyway... drag outweighs gravity EXCEPT on stuff past 45 degrees downhill(from horizontal)...

very, very few armies would be stupid enough to charge up a 45 degree slope longer than a few yards.

it does seem that it takes a few seconds for the projectile to stabilize in the air(actually only a second or so)... maybe that's what you are thinking of.
Back to top
 

“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
"You don't think the electricity is off. You check it 3 times to make SURE its off"
"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
IP Logged
 
RoyUK
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 31
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #141 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:54am
 
Many armies have stupidly attacked Roman armies up very steep hills - read Caesar Gallic Wars as simple example, but thanks for your comment.

Yep I meant sling, not slingshot - watching too many catapult videos at the moment.

Peace.  Smiley
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Curious Aardvark
Slinging.org Administrator
*****
Offline


Taller than the average
Dwarf

Posts: 12030
Midlands England
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #142 - Aug 28th, 2013 at 6:18pm
 
Quote:
well able to take a knock on the head more than a common man I think, even if it did know him down I think given time he would certainly have killed David - whom he stupidly underestimated.


a 'knock on the head'.

It's clear you have very little experience and knowlege of slings in action.
In The most recent scientific attempt to replicate the event louis pons livermore hit an head sized target with 3 times the force required to kill.

I myself in a simulated attack uphill at a target 50 meters away was putting enough power behind my throws to send the missiles - in a flat trajectory - over 50 metres beyond the actual target when i missed.

At the distances involved in a duel - I NEVER missed the target and with 5 shots at a large head - I can pretty much guarentee a good slinger would NEVER lose a duel with a man armed only with a sword or spear.

You're appear to be making the mistake most historians make - pete the hillfort man is a rare exception -  and that is to base your conclusions on your own actual or perceived ability.

For a close quarter battle david would have used large pebbles in the 8oz - 225g weight range. Which is most probably why he was only carrying five.
And he'd have thrown them with sufficient force to bring down an ox let alone a man.

Bear in mind david was nota callow youth but a young man and atrained warrior who had honed his slinging skills over many years asa shepherd where the sling would have been used daily to both herd the flocks and defend them from predators.
Any hit anywhere on goliaths body would have caused significant damage, anything from broken bones to internal injuries. Armour notwithstanding.
In the right hands a sling is a seriously dangerous weapon.
Goliath had bugger all chance of walking out of that arena.
   
lets put it this way the hardest throwing slinger in the modern era is Larry bray. He slung a stone 425 metres. Had that stone been intercepted by a human head in the first 20 metres of that flight - that human would have been heading straight to the morgue.

It's a bit more serious than a 'knock on the head'  Wink
Back to top
 

Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
RoyUK
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 31
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #143 - Sep 1st, 2013 at 5:45pm
 
Hi Aardvark,

I am only a beginner with slings in action as you rightly point out, but having slung them for 6 months and smacked myself in the brow with one using some fast heavy spin - having a huge lump even now might I add -  and having read historical accounts on top of this, I truly believe the sling to be a LETHAL WEAPON.  Do not get me wrong here.

Let me not underestimate this.  Having said that, I will state, David was in no way an ordinary warrior - Bible actually way underestimates him - and also Goliath is shown for the mammoth he is but also undermined somewhat.  No normal human could withstand a typical sling hit and this I know.

My original point was none of this really, but to point out ACTUAL historical DATA.  Flavius Josephus is a more reliable witness to events of his times and Biblical than any bible amended and edited 300 years after his time and beyond.

Thank you for your comments.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
squirrelslinger
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


peace through superior
firepower

Posts: 2870
Ky, USA
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #144 - Sep 13th, 2013 at 10:17pm
 
david might have gotten a concussion and been knocked out cold and soon to die, and david beheaded him Wink
Back to top
 

“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
"You don't think the electricity is off. You check it 3 times to make SURE its off"
"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
IP Logged
 
RoyUK
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 31
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #145 - Sep 14th, 2013 at 10:00pm
 
Those are pretty much my thoughts Squirrelslinger, especially with the context.  I think Flavius is a way more reliable source of that era or especially of the era talked about, rather than any edited bible several hundred years later, and especially anything of King James era in 1600AD - massive propaganda environment. 

Not that it was any different before and when this is realized, we could live better if we only knew how to - without the indoctrination of the modern matrix.  That matrix has probably always been there though.

We live in a crappy world with idiots attempting to rule over us, and doing it very easily unfortunately.

I despise most of the human race right now.  We are way too simple.  We are machines, with machine minds.  We think if it don't affect us NOW then we don't care, no matter if it meant our neighbor being shut away for nothing.

We most of us have machine minds.  We are despicable.

I am sorry if any of that offends someone, it certainly will.  Such is life.   

You work 25 years of your life away, then on reaching 40 realize just how insane this world is.  I don't know who on here understands much of what I am typing, but it should reach some hearts and also healthy minds, especially those who still avoid fluoride, and aspartame.

Life in this world makes me sick sometimes.

This is my rant.  Love you all.

Safe slinging.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
jlasud
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Programming stones

Posts: 2358
Transilvania
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #146 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 1:45am
 
Hey RoyUK! Knowledge has the power to set one free.The only constant thing is change. Though with our perception,a few years can appear a long time,that's just a milisecond in eternity.
This is not a permanent situation,nor for you,nor for the world.
And if you will,be the change you want to see in the world.

You can be David with only a sling and 5 stones,and slew The Giant.
Back to top
 

Respect existance or expect resistance!
 
IP Logged
 
squirrelslinger
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


peace through superior
firepower

Posts: 2870
Ky, USA
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #147 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 9:21am
 
I avoid aspertame..
but not flouride.
Back to top
 

“Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.”
"You don't think the electricity is off. You check it 3 times to make SURE its off"
"Remember, this is not a scalpel. It is a steel wedge that you will be slamming into knotty wood. Hone accordingly."
 
IP Logged
 
jlasud
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Programming stones

Posts: 2358
Transilvania
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #148 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 4:04pm
 
I use a simple rule: What our ancestors didn't eat or wash themselves with for the last couple million years,it's not necessary,and probably harmful to our bodies, especially with higher exposure to them.

P.S. besides the last 200 years,when a bunch of clever guys were born.
Back to top
 

Respect existance or expect resistance!
 
IP Logged
 
balearic-sling
Junior Member
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 81
Menorca
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #149 - Dec 4th, 2014 at 11:19am
 
here you are , a nem link of the video. the other was deleted.
enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xPhrgPvq6c&list=UUVMEEgWY0ZbVdSv0iS8fUPg
Back to top
 
livermore  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Chris, Curious Aardvark, Mauro Fiorentini, David Morningstar, Rat Man, Bill Skinner, Masiakasaurus) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)