Welcome, Guest. Please Login
SLINGING.ORG
 
Home Help Search Login


Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12
Send Topic Print
Re: david and goliath (Read 90370 times)
Masiakasaurus
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us

Posts: 6067
Alabama, USA
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #120 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:39am
 
I like the fact that the guy is trying to make people think critically about the story in an actual historical sense, but he makes 1 critical mistake that seems to crop up everywhere. He's assuming how long the lengths of measure are! There are multiple types of cubit, and Jewish people had a tendency of borrowing them from all over. If you read the wiki article on cubits it makes you think "okay, so they used this measure during this period and after that they started using this one," but in reality different tribes used different measures of cubit depending on where they lived and who they traded with the most. The person who wrote down the measure of Goliath could have been from south Judea and traded with Egyptians (cubit was between 518.5 and 525 mm) and the measure we think is standard could have been from Northern Israel which they used because they traded with Mesopotamians (cubit=533.4 mm). That leads to an error as great as 89.4 mm (3.5") when measuring Goliath's height. 3.5 inches may not be much, but it's the difference between being considered average (5'10") and tall (6'1.5").

We know that the ancient Jews used the Babylonian cubit at one time (428 mm) and the largest cubit I know of is the Hashimi cubit (650.2 mm), so if someone accidentally used the hashimi cubit to figure the height of Goliath and used the 6 cubit measure the possible error could be as high as 1333.2 mm (52.5") if the Babylonian cubit was the correct measure.
Back to top
 

Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
WWW elsabio04  
IP Logged
 
HurlinThom
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Leverage artillerist

Posts: 1458
Re: david and goliath
Reply #121 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:08pm
 
Length of a cubit notwithstanding, there is scriptural disagreement on how many cubits Goliath stood. The Dead Sea Scrolls say 4, plus one span, as do other sources. Not the six plus a span as is currently accepted.

And who did the measuring? I mean after he was killed his head was cut off, and before that I doubt that anyone on the Hebrew side took a tape to him. The whole question is on shaky ground.
Back to top
 

When all is said and done more will have been said than done.
 
IP Logged
 
Masiakasaurus
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us

Posts: 6067
Alabama, USA
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #122 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:00pm
 
HurlinThom wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:08pm:
And who did the measuring? I mean after he was killed his head was cut off, and before that I doubt that anyone on the Hebrew side took a tape to him. The whole question is on shaky ground.

Now that I think about it, maybe the measure of his height was a boast from his own side (although the Philistines were ethnically close to the Jews in the same way as Pakistanis are to Indians) so the height could have even been an exaggeration from the beginning.
Back to top
 

Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
WWW elsabio04  
IP Logged
 
David Morningstar
Slinging.org Moderator
Forum Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3191
UK
Re: david and goliath
Reply #123 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:12pm
 

Goliath was the Philistine champion, so his impressive statistics would have been known all across the region.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
timann
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 2497
Norway
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #124 - Mar 22nd, 2011 at 2:44pm
 
David Morningstar wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:12pm:
Goliath was the Philistine champion, so his impressive statistics would have been known all across the region.

No, he was not the champion, he was one of several, the "sons of Rapha"(?).
timann
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
winkleried
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline



Posts: 1534
Norman Oklahoma
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #125 - May 6th, 2011 at 3:49pm
 
In one of my files from 2 employers ago ( when I had all sorts of access to academic datbases) was an paper on that very fact David. It is probably where they got that particular tid-bit of information from. I will try later this weekend to see if I can find it and give the bibliographical info for it. From what I remeber it all hinged on haow a particular ward was interpreted and I don't remember the details Sad

Marc Adkins

David Morningstar wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:10am:
Four part article:

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-pa...

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-pa...

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-pa...

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-pa...

Heavy on religion, but the main points are:

Goliath was six feet seven inches tall

The stone struck him on the greave (lower leg armour) and dropped him, David then killed him with his own sword.

I am not 100% convinced by the greave suggestion but it is interesting.



Back to top
 

The Few...The Proud.....The Slingers&&Sling to live, Live to sling&&I Ain't right
WWW winkleried  
IP Logged
 
jpderidder
Tiro
**
Offline


Oeps!

Posts: 10
zeeland. the old one!
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #126 - May 16th, 2011 at 12:37pm
 
Masiakasaurus wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:00pm:
HurlinThom wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:08pm:
And who did the measuring? I mean after he was killed his head was cut off, and before that I doubt that anyone on the Hebrew side took a tape to him. The whole question is on shaky ground.

Now that I think about it, maybe the measure of his height was a boast from his own side (although the Philistines were ethnically close to the Jews in the same way as Pakistanis are to Indians) so the height could have even been an exaggeration from the beginning.


just my 2 cnts but the philistines are were not related ethnically to the jews. this is an other thing many people dont know.  the philistines originated from grease or that region, hense the advanced weaponry and the fighting with champions (see the Iliad for cultural reference). they settled that region long before the jews came to judea.

the Palestinians are not related to the philistines but they are blood relatives of the jews through abraham.

this is not mend as a political statement just a historical one.
-------------------------
Vires et honestas


Back to top
 

Vires et honestas
 
IP Logged
 
Masiakasaurus
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us

Posts: 6067
Alabama, USA
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #127 - May 16th, 2011 at 2:29pm
 
Geographically, the Philistines came from south Canaan, which is today the area to the east around the Agean Sea into the Mediterranean including Cyprus. The Greeks inhabited to opposite coast of the Agean. The Philistines had trade contacts with the Greek sea traders, but they did not come from Greece. Instead the Philistines had a long history of intermarrying with the Canaanites to the north and their culture and religion were the same as evidenced by figurines dug in in Philistine City-States. The Hebrew people are a cultural offshoot of the Canaanites in Middle Canaan but were not originally a different ethnicity. There are theories that the Philistines were the "Sea Peoples" that invaded Egypt during the reign of Ramses III or that the Philistines were descendants of the Ionians, but we know nothing about the Philistine language that would prove this. All we know is that some words in the Bible appear to be Proto-Indo-European instead of Semitic, but even that is speculation. Assuming the Philistines originally spoke a Proto-Indo-European language, the most likely reason is that they migrated north from a region of the West Asian Peninsula where Proto-Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic languages (including Semitic languages) was mixed. These people also intermarried with the Canaanites on the borders of Canaan, so it's likely that a good portion of the Philistines were part or mostly Canaanite. The Isrealites were descendants of West-Central Canaanites, and the Judeans were descendants of South-Western Canaanites so the Philistines were close to the Jews.
Back to top
 

Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
WWW elsabio04  
IP Logged
 
Thearos
Interfector Viris Spurii
*****
Offline


Take that

Posts: 3253
Re: david and goliath
Reply #128 - May 21st, 2011 at 5:48am
 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sadrice
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 35
Re: david and goliath
Reply #129 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 6:36am
 
Masiakasaurus wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 7:10pm:
In response to Iron Goober in the Overlooked variable thread, taking the Bible literally must be done very carefully. Remember that you are reading an update of a translation of a translation of a translation (check my math: Original Aramaic to Greek to Latin to German/English and then modernized. 1 original, 3 translations, and a revision).

That only (sort of) applies to the new testament of the king james version.  Samuel was probably composed in Hebrew, and we still have the Hebrew version (though certainly not exactly the same Hebrew version), and modern translations are made directly from that, rather than using the vulgate (and as I recall Jerome prepared that part of the vulgate from the Hebrew, rather than using the septuagint).  

Even the new testament was almost certainly not originally in Aramaic.  Though Jesus and friends probably did most of their speaking in Aramaic, the overwhelming majority of bible scholars believe that the gospels were composed in Greek, which was the standard literary language.

(sorry to reply to a year old post just to nitpick, but I couldn't resist)
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Masiakasaurus
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us

Posts: 6067
Alabama, USA
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #130 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 12:45pm
 
The Old Testament of the Bible was written in both Aramaic and Hebrew with multiple retanslations between the two and the Dead Sea Scrolls present evidence that the New Tesatament was written in a mix of Hebrew and Aramaic for some books and Greek for others. Interestingly, they used a very archaic form of the word "God" an an older form of the Hebrew Alphabet every time the word appeared which would be like English Bibles using the German word "Gott" in runes. Even if the New Testament was written in Greek, unless Jesus's spoken words were translated into Greek first they'd be Greek gibberish.

Even if you think you have the original language be careful, compare the Dead Sea Scrolls to other Hebrew and Greek versions of the New Testament and disparities appear. To copy, these books were written out by hand and small errors did start adding up. Over the time that the Bible was written the Hebrew Language also changed significantly and the Torah was changed to match. Shakespeare lived 400 years ago and modern readers have trouble understanding what he wrote even though English is their native language. The oldest hebrew writing we have is 3,000 years old. That makes 1000 years between the first know inscription and the Mishnaic Hebrew read during the time of Jesus and 3,000 years between that first Hebrew and Modern Hebrew.

Ignoring all that, what about metaphors and idioms? Even if they're translated right how are you supposed to understand them? I say again, be very careful taking the Bible literally because you cannot know what was originally written and you can be even less sure of what was originally meant.
Back to top
 

Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
WWW elsabio04  
IP Logged
 
Sadrice
Tiro
**
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 35
Re: david and goliath
Reply #131 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 2:14pm
 
Certainly we don't have the same version of the text as was originally written, even if it's in (nominally) the same language, and my goodness the metaphors and idioms can be obtuse (eg in Job).  This is particularly apparent in the Torah, with the merging of separate sources and various redactions, but the Nevi'im certainly weren't passed down pristine either.  But as for Aramaic composition, my Hebrew bible teacher told me that the only evidence for Aramaic composition of any part of the bible is part of Daniel (would that be the "some books" you referred to?), and a direct quote attributed to Jesus or two.  Apparently, although Aramaic and Hebrew traded dominance as the common language of Israel several times, Hebrew was always the language of literature, especially scripture.  Doesn't mean he's right, but I took his word for it.

By archaic form, are you referring to their tendency to put some odd vowel diacritics on YHWH?  Because I was told that that was them putting the vowels for Adonai on the consonants for Yahweh, as a signal to the reader that they should say Adonai instead (which confused modernish scholars and made them think that Jehovah was a sensible transliteration).  This certainly wasn't "every time", as they used an incredible variety of names to refer to god, like Yahweh, Elohim, Elohe, Adonai, Yahweh Sebaot, El Shaddai, and a pile of others that have slipped my mind.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I agree totally with your main point, that is, that the bible has changed too dramatically over the millennia for taking it exactly literally to make any sense (not that it would even if we had the original).  I just take issue with you applying that particular string of translations to this particular bit of text.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Masiakasaurus
Slinging.org Moderator
*****
Offline


mah-SEE-a-kah-SOR-us

Posts: 6067
Alabama, USA
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #132 - Jun 5th, 2011 at 2:21pm
 
Most of my historical information on how the ancient texts were written comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls, and significant portions of the New Testament Hebrew books contain direct Aramaic quotes. AFAIK none were totally Aramaic, but we have younger versions of the same books  exclusively in Hebrew which is evidence enough to me that someone went through and edited/translated them at lease once.

As for the archaic form, yes I am referring to the diacritic in addition to other details. The script used to write God was different from the rest of the text in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well. Best way I can describe it is that if the scrolls were written in English the word God would be Schwabacher while the rest of it would be in Times New Roman or Arial.
Back to top
 

Pikåru wrote on Nov 19th, 2013 at 6:59pm:
Massi - WTF? It's called a sling. You use it to throw rocks farther and faster than you could otherwise. That's all. 
~Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily avialable, they will create their own problems.~
WWW elsabio04  
IP Logged
 
kentuckythrower
Descens
***
Offline


Illegitimi non carborundum

Posts: 244
Kentucky, U.S.A.
Re: david and goliath
Reply #133 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 11:57pm
 
I've been reading 1 Samuel 17 here lately and after thinking about it all, I'd bet a dollar to anyone's dime that David didn't actually kill Goliath with the sling...only dropped him and then finished him off with Goliath's own sword. I have not a doubt in my mind this fight actually happened, but based upon my take of the reading...particularly the word "smote", I'd have to say it was a stunning...not a killing shot. According to the King James Version of this fight, in verse 50 we read that David "smote" Goliath and slew him. then in verse 51 it relates how David slew him with a sword. I have to point out that one definition of "smote" is "hit with a heavy blow". This seems much more plausible than an out-and-out killing shot. Regardless of the detail...David used a sling to knock out his enemy and Goliath was killed.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dan
Interfector Viris Spurii
SlingingGuide Moderator
*****
Offline


Slinging Rocks!

Posts: 3952
Gender: male
Re: david and goliath
Reply #134 - Dec 22nd, 2012 at 6:59pm
 
David Morningstar wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:10am:
Four part article:

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-pa...

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-pa...

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-pa...

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-pa...

Heavy on religion, but the main points are:

Goliath was six feet seven inches tall

The stone struck him on the greave (lower leg armour) and dropped him, David then killed him with his own sword.

I am not 100% convinced by the greave suggestion but it is interesting.





Just read this and 1st Sam 17, some interesting points but also some things I'd like to mention.

The word for greave and forehead are actually several letters apart. Brow or forehead is 'metsach' and greave or shin is 'mitshah'. As can be seen in this page and the following word H4697. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4696&t=KJV
And obviously, 'metsach' is the word used in scripture.

Very similar to our words 'help' and 'hell' (but even further apart). Similar spelling, but very clearly understood in their context.

His sheild bearer was also in front of him so that would lessen the probablility of getting in a good shot at his very well armored shins.

I'd like to see anyone take a full force shot to the forehead out of a shepeards sling and keep fighting. I know I'd be dead or in a very strong coma. Beaheading would definitly take you out. Granted, there wasn't a autopsy afterward, but I'm fairly certain just about anyone would be dead if they had a sling stone 'sunk in' their forehead.

Giants were also relatively common back then too. I personally am not sure exactly how tall Goliath was but there are records of other giants in the Bible, if that is of question. In 2nd Samuel 23, some of Davids' mighty men went to the Valley of Rephaim to fetch him a glass of cool water. 'Repahim' means 'giant'. And there are various other refererence through scripture.

It is possible Goliath was a Giant, but on the smaller side of giants, and still much larger than your average person.

Just some general scripture points that I felt were worth mentioning in relation to those articles.  Smiley
Back to top
 

"Like tying a stone to a sling is the giving of honor to a fool" Proverbs 26:8
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12
Send Topic Print
(Moderators: Mauro Fiorentini, David Morningstar, Curious Aardvark, Masiakasaurus, Chris, Rat Man, Bill Skinner) - (Moderator Group: Forum Moderator)