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Digging for truth - History channel - David (Read 4398 times)
Steven
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Digging for truth - History channel - David
Jul 17th, 2007 at 9:01am
 
Watched this last night they were looking for historical evidence of King David ... Smiley
Their segment on the David and Goliath was interesting... Wink

They used a terra cotta head on a pole to get the nine foot height. the slings the were using were in the 1 meter (39 inches) (folded) plus range ... The two slingers  were big men and measured slings finger tip to far side shoulder. Seemed to take 8-10 shots to hit the head  Embarrassed.... a lot of shots passed through the torso area (if there was a torso on the target) ...one hit the pole ...one nicked the head in the neck and one was a dead center head shot . Shocked .. throwing stones about half the size of their fist...pretty credible looking slinging
using what I would refer to as helicopter ...slow horizonal revolutions with hand overhead then dial in the power. Cool
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #1 - Jul 17th, 2007 at 10:06am
 
This is a common question on the Mythbusters bulletin board; "could David have really killed Goliath with a sling?"  Of course, some history-challenged lad always asks about slingshots...

I always point out that the sling was a well-established weapon of war at the time, and David, a good shepherd lad, would have had lots of practice...

Also, (according to which particular account you read) David only needed to knock Goliath a bit loopy; he beheaded the fellow after he was down.

Of course, we might wonder why David didn't use more conventional ammuntion...Maybe he was just used to rocks?
(Provided of course, that we accept this tale as factual; more likely just a story meant to establish David's bona fides as the future king.
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #2 - Jul 17th, 2007 at 3:06pm
 
its completly possible, in fact, i got in trouble at scout camp last year for putting a hole in the side of a trailer with a sling that i made in under a minute using duckt tape, ironicaly they used duct tape to patch up the hole that is still in the trailer. My boy scout troop now has a strict "no sling" policy
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #3 - Jul 17th, 2007 at 3:27pm
 
modern slingers - particularly with too long a sling (fingertip to shoulder of same arm) are just not going to be anywhere near the level of someone who used it every single day as their personal weapon and had done so for some years.

None of these programs ever compare like with like.

Your basic helicopter windup and side release is never going to be as accurate as an over arm release and a much shorter windup.

This modern mentality of: 'we can't do it so them buggers from olden days can't possibly have been able to do it' is just so much cow flop.

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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #4 - Jul 17th, 2007 at 3:59pm
 
I'm not sure what disturbs me more... Scout troops making a "NO SLINGS" policy on the basis of p3's episode or the arrogance of "if WE can't do it... no-one can".

I remember the story of Edison trying to frost the inside of a light bulb (so the bright glare of the filiment wasn't ever-present when the light was illuminated...) he took new-hire engineers and isolated them, giving them the task to frost the inside of the bulb... all the older guys who'd tried (and failed) would walk by the glass partitions and laugh at the newby trying to frost the bulb... until one day when the current newby did it.  Edison understood the power in the positve mental attitude axiom "whether you can or can't... you are usually right!"  He didn't want those who'd failed even able to associate with those who currently had the task to do it.

Any dedicated slinger who has been through the process of believing, learning and doing with a sling knows things that non-slingers just don't understand.   After my Sling Golf presentation to the Powell Gold Club Board they asked if I could show them... the 63 year old fat man, without any warmup, stepped out to their driving range and whipped a golf ball 175 yards down range.  The vision of "Sling Golf" was complete in their minds and there was more than one "wow" or "gee" or other expression of wonderment and dis-belief.  If at my age and condition I can do that with no more than a decent sling and a good technique then no wonder Larry Bray can throw over 450 meters and David could (and I believe did) kill Goliath.  I've believed the story of David and Goliath ever since about age eight... when I built and learned to shoot my first sling.
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #5 - Jul 17th, 2007 at 4:33pm
 
It does seem to be one of those cathartic moments in life. The first time you loose a stone with a sling and it just keeps on going - you KNOW for a fact that goliath was sold a pup :-), stitched up, taken for a ride etc and davids people were just doing their best not to laugh and give the game away :-)

And it's pretty much the same the first time you demonstrate the power of the sling to other people you can almost see the penny drop: 'oh wow, man that giant was suckered but good'.
And it's the one slinging story that EVERYBODY knows. show them a working sling and they'll believe it as well.

Oddly the biblical version then has considerably less impact as a 'david triumphed because god helped him' tale. Once you see a sling in action you know that david needed no divine help :-) 
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #6 - Jul 17th, 2007 at 7:31pm
 
[quote author=curious_aardvark link=1184677294/0#3 date=1184700446]modern slingers - particularly with too long a sling (fingertip to shoulder of same arm) are just not going to be anywhere near the level of someone who used it every single day as their personal weapon and had done so for some years.
None of these programs ever compare like with like.
Your basic helicopter windup and side release is never going to be as accurate as an over arm release and a much shorter windup.
This modern mentality of: 'we can't do it so them buggers from olden days can't possibly have been able to do it' is just so much cow flop.

[/quote]

  I couldn't agree more. It took years of research for Atlatl Bob to work out the proportions of the atlatl to make it as accurate as ancient weapons, and he was using advanced scientific knowledge. Our ancestors not only had cause to use their weapons frequently, but also make them while snowed in or otherwise not busy.
  I would hazard a very uneducated guess that the sling has a far more complex set of issues effecting accuracy than does the atlatl. String length, pouch dimensions, overall flexability of materials; weight, size & consistency, integrity & uniformity of projectiles; I'm sure that we could go on ad infinitum without even considering user experience, accuracy and personal dimensions or technique.

  I would also note that the mythbuster's crew are stunt men. Their job is and has always been to create spectacular plausabilities, not to explore scientific reality with any degree of accuracy. Although some of the assistants do have engineering degrees they do not intend to make anything other than entertainment through exploration of limited possibilities. An entertaining show, but not even approaching the thoroughness of ancient civilizations, much less sound or thorough scientific method.


As an aside, fist-sized rocks probably weren't historically accurate, since David collected 5 stones according to historical accounts. They were probably about the size of a duck egg or so.
As for the damage caused, I believe that "sunk deep into Goliath's forehead" is used. From a physiologic standpoint, this is both possible and lethal.
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #7 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 6:01am
 
Quote:
I would hazard a very uneducated guess that the sling has a far more complex set of issues effecting accuracy than does the atlatl. String length, pouch dimensions, overall flexability of materials; weight, size & consistency, integrity & uniformity of projectiles; I'm sure that we could go on ad infinitum without even considering user experience, accuracy and personal dimensions or technique.


i would tend to disagree. an atlatl is a very complex machine, with the components - dart, thrower, counter-weight and tip in a very precise relationship. the thrower is really a machine operator. atlatl dart heads have been found over a huge geographical area with a very small differential in weight. this suggests that the atlatl is a precision instrument which depends on ideal components to make it work. the dart must flex in a precise way as the throw progresses, and is a spring which depends on it's weight, length, springiness, the momentum of the tip etc etc - the throwing component was skilfully balanced with a counter-weight.  there are other refinements, but as we know, the atlatl is much more of a technological achievement than it looks.      

the sling, however, depends for accuracy on the brain of the thrower. any difference from one sling to the next is quickly dialled-out, and compensated for by the brain of the thrower. i would say that any accomplished slinger could get results with any sling. two cords and a pouch are two cords and a pouch.

i would be surprised if, supposing we could all swap slings, we found ourselves incapable of hitting anything  (or noticeably less capable than usual!)   

SV
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #8 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 7:55am
 
I agree with SV here. There is just one main difference in slings: the length of the cords. And even there, there is no ideal length, that is why the mercenary slingers of the Balearics took three different slings with them.
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #9 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 8:22am
 
[quote]i would say that any accomplished slinger could get results with any sling. two cords and a pouch are two cords and a pouch[/quote]
Results - yes. Good results - no.
I have a sling that is 5 foot long, its just for fun as any kind of accuracy is just not an issue.

Like many weapons there is an ideal trade off point between length and usage (more so than most with a sling), yep that's down to an individual's size and shape - but proportionally it's a very real measurement.

[quote]There is just one main difference in slings[/quote]
And as for any sling being as good as any other - no way joses :-)
I wouldn't give you tuppence for a split pouch sling in any situation where accuracy and reliability mattered. For me it's a solid pouch every time and there are huge operational differences between types of solid pouch as well. Some pouches have a 'release' that compromises accuracy while others add more or less spin. Some fare better with large stones some with smaller stones.
Picking a perfect sling is very much a matter of personal choice, but there are also a wide array of design and style considerations that also matter.

Three slings make sense. Short range, medium range and one for totally inaccurate mass bombardment.  And each of those three slings would have been very carefully selected by the individual slinger. 

A good sling is probably tailored more to an individual than the vast majority of weapons. One reason why slingers invariably made their own weapons.
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #10 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 8:32am
 
[quote author=curious_aardvark link=1184677294/0#9 date=1184761352 quote]slingers invariably made their own weapons.[/quote]

Aren't we just the coolest that way?  No arrow, sword or gun smiths to baby us. 8-)
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #11 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 9:03am
 
I for one am a firm believer in David killing Goliath with a sling do'nt the Bible also tell us that he also killed the lion and bear with a sling?David knew how capable he was with his sling.And the added knowlage tha G
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #12 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:00am
 
well goliath I'll buy - but  a bear ? With a sling ?
You got any idea how fast bears are ?
Not too mention how thick their fur and hard their heads.

And a lion - well that depends on the type of lion.  Most big cats tend to be called lions in the bible. So it could have been a mountain lion. Which while fast would succumb to a good sling shot.

But anyone going up against a bear with a sling - has a death wish.
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #13 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:18pm
 
Heartily agree about bears if it's a grizzly, kodiak or polar...  a black bear is another story...    I've chased at least a dozen of those out of our camps both in developed campgrounds and pitch-where-you-land camps...  gotta admit I've never used the sling to try and do that however...  growing up in the Mountain West of the US you quickly learn there are bears and there are "very pissed-off bears".
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Re: Digging for truth - History channel - David
Reply #14 - Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:19pm
 
Quote:
But anyone going up against a bear with a sling - has a death wish.
That's what makes it miraculous, and worth mentioning.  Stupid, but miraculous.  But I'm sure there have been accounts somewhere of Bedouin slingers on horseback shooting at lions - probably mountain lions, but still, no mean feat.

Quote:
There is just one main difference in slings: the length of the cords.
And the shape of the pocket.  If the pocket whips the rock or retains it for a few nano-seconds more because of the shape, that will affect accuracy.  But then it's just down to technique.

Quote:
Short range, medium range and one for totally inaccurate mass bombardment.
A good policy for military slingers, but not for hunting.  Most hunting encounters are at under 30 metre ranges, so having a range of different slings isn't really necessary.  And since David was supposedly going up against one guy, and then going hunting, he probably only had the one sling.
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