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Throwing Technique Naming Conventions (Read 5112 times)
Gunsonwheels
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Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Apr 22nd, 2007 at 5:17pm
 
I STRONGLY disagree with Dale that Aussie's style is figure eight... It uses the Greek starting stance but there is no "eight" in it that I can see or even imagine and I doubt any intelligent newby could either.

Maybe for clarity sake we should stop calling everything the figure eight or other PET names and start a NEW nomenclature which is a combination of a technique's essential elements.  I studied cv's garbage can whacking and Aussie's clip for quite a while last night... frame by frame... Both use the Greek start but Aussie's pouch release is into a more vertical drop so as to bring the pouch farther up into a more overhand stone release... he appears to be releasing the stone about 60 degrees or more up from a horizontal sidearm.  Cv releases the pouch into the windup more to the side which leads into a more side-arm-ish style with the stone release occurring about 40 degrees up from a horizontal... at least it is very evident from the clips his release is more sidearm than vertical overhand whereas Aussie's is more overhand than sidearm.  I think this is one of the great benefits of having a compendium of these as any of us can study them frame by frame and see that what is really going on is fully disclosed.

I'd like to see all Greek Starting Stance videos filed under that name.  Call the others Hanging Start.

After that, lets count revolutions or degrees.  Cv and Aussie and David taylor's overhand are all One.  Everything one rev or under call "ONE".  One to two call 1-2 and above that Helicopter (plane of rotation horizontal to 45 degrees) or Propeller (plane of rotation vertical to 45 degrees off vertical). 

From there let's go to the stone release.  Everything that appears to have a stone release higher than 45 degrees call Overhand and everything below that 45 but above about 45 degrees downward call Sidearm.  Anything below that call Underhand.

The problem with a Compiled DVD of throwing techniques is going to be finding what you're looking for among all the current "pet" names.  "John's wife's, second husband's cousin, hyperbolic Apache/Navajo variant twist" won't mean a thing to anyone but the oddball (yes I know we are all one of those including & especially me) who invented it and nothing but misleading to anyone who may be trying to find a style that works with the way they grew up throwing rocks and balls without a sling.

If we don't get some kind of naming convention, C_A will collect all of them, stir well for five minutes and pour into a DVD file.  Hunting for a technique may be acceptable for the near term but longer term it definately WILL NOT.  If we can get some orgaization to it now the first issue will have an order and organization and future editions will have more  than one bucket into which ALL clips are dumped.

With a naming convention... if I want the simplest overhand technique with no more than a single rotation from start to release, then I know what that is called under the naming convention rules and can select that section for viewing and because his name starts with "A",  Aussie Slinger's should be right at the top of that section.  If no hanging start   styles are listed then I further know I must use the Greek Starting Stance to begin my learning.

My suggestions for a convention are only that... suggestions...  but I feel strongly one of our moderators should seriously take this on... get inputs and make the decisions necessary to establish a straight-foward and self-explanatory convention but PLEASE no more pet or favorite names that often have NO percievable application to a technique.
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George N
 
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shabundi
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #1 - Apr 22nd, 2007 at 9:36pm
 
Gunsonwheels,

I really like your suggestions, especially since for a very long time I was confused on the terminology used. I would like to add a couple of suggestions…

1.      FOR THE STARTING STANCE category that you mentioned, I would prefer HANGING POUCH (instead of hanging stance) and GRIPPED POUCH (for greek style stance), since one of my confusions initially with the concept of “greek style”.

2.      FOR REVOLUTIONS, it would be easier just to say SINGLE ROTATION, DOUBLE ROTATION, or MULTIPLE-ROTATIONS.

I would also like to add that even though all my throws are pretty much a form of side-arm, my slinging can be categorized (according to your definition) under the styles of over-hand, under-hand, and side-arm due to the fact that I simply pivot my upper body do achieve the desired angle of projectile release. So, I don't know how practicle the definitions that you gave are in that respect.

Shihab
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« Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2007 at 11:18pm by shabundi »  
 
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Gunsonwheels
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #2 - Apr 22nd, 2007 at 9:59pm
 
Excellent input!!!  If no moderator steps up then I will go ahead with a proposed convention after incorporating the inputs and then...  we'll ask C_A if he will approve the convention and organize the DVD accordingly.   I've noticed he doesn't leave too many rocks unturned... (no pun intended about the rocks/stones).

Based on what you have stated... you will need to video and submit all three for the compendium.   The study of the video and the actual stone release position in relationship to horizontal Mother earth will determine which category it will fit in... I want that determination to be left up to the compiler and Editor (C_A)... then we can second guess him as to whether the release was above or below a 45....  sounds like fun... may lead to more threads than a old ragity shirt.
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George N
 
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #3 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 12:02am
 
Gunsonwheels,

After giving more thought to your definition for under-hand, over-hand, and sidearm, I think it is pretty good as it stands right now. Simple is always the key, and my last remark about my sidearm style might just complicate the whole thing. (However, I don’t mind at all posting a video if you wanted to see what I meant.)

The distinction between propeller and helicopter is also pretty ingenious!
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Gunsonwheels
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #4 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 12:41am
 
After watching Tint's video it wasn't ingenious but blatantly obvious.   Even with a good sound naming convention Tint has a lot of stuff that will probably have to be put in "Other".  Maybe he would be the most valuable input for such a convention
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George N
 
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #5 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 8:00am
 
lol
Okay - yep the naming thing is very confusing and primarily because each of us probably developed a style of slinging and THEN learnt what we were doing.

I'm basically going with:
Sidearm variations
Overhand variations
underhand variations
and figure 8 variations.

The key word being variations :-)

Anything else just seems to complicate matters and being too pedantic about what is a very individual thing is just too confusing.
Those 4 categories are clearly seperated and all throws show similiarities - I suppose that figure 8 is really an overhand variation designed for long slings.
But as people here are so fond of it we'll give it it's own home :-)

Figue eight does seem to be one of those weird ones - I find everything else pretty straightforward. But if you look at the figure 8 GIF (which I'm going to have to work out  a way to digitise) potatoe throwing and more interestingly southpaws two videos.
There are two definite styles of figure 8.
One where the sling starts in front, drops behind and then is brought round in the horizontal plane before a vertical plane release. - which is southpaws first video and the gif.
And then there's the one where the sling remains vertical at all points - which seems to need a long sling and is what southpaw used for his second video.
Which - apart from the erratic flight of his projectiles was very impressive. :-)

I'm open to suggestions - but as things stand I can easily sort styles into those four categories. And bearing in mind that each category will have it's own menu system I really don't want to get more complicated than that :-)

As an example of manu tree complexity. Projected dvd layout at the moment is basically.
Intro video clip. Home page with three sections. Introductions, galleries and video
Each of those will then lead to another screen with it's own buttons. Now as far as galleries goes there will probably be straight slideshows for things like sling pictures, action pictures and scenic shots. But then there will also be a tutorials button that will lead to it's own menu (which may or may not also have nested menus) likewise the video page will have buttons for the four categories each of which will lead to it's own menu page with video clip buttons.

That's the basic layout as I currently envisage it. 

Just adding more categories of throw isn't going to help :-)
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #6 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 9:06am
 
Good suggestions everyone! Only suggestion I have is to (sacrilige?) dump the figure-8, at least as a category.

It is an overhand variation as C_A writes. If anyone wants to find it that is where to go. Nothing wrong with tagging the examples of fig-8 as such. Seems to me a good thing to keep the categories 'mutually exclusive and exhaustive' - or some such phrase I remember from somewhere.

Adding the rotation count gives quite a fine separation of techniques which even a complete beginner (or someone who has not trawled through this entire site Wink ) can use effectively.
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #7 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 9:50am
 
well - it certainly seems to be a matter of opinion.
There is a very odd style that seems to work with longer slings that is called figure 8. There is another style also useful for longer slings that is very different that is also called figure 8. And then there is the classic over hand that is apparently (lmao) very choppped down figure 8.

I'll stick with what I have I think as the two figure 8 styles shown by southpaw are sufficiently different to a straight overhand throw to be given their own name.
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Gunsonwheels
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #8 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 1:28pm
 
My background of classification and coding schemes is with aircraft parts with quantities of parts in the tens of thousands... that being said...  I can support keeping "figure eight" in the near term, even if I don't agree with it...  If there are fewer than 50 throw variants then maybe that works...  Realistically, however, we should ask ourselves the question "will the convention we decide on support the quantities of throw variations which may come to light in the future???  ...say a couple hundred???   The "figure eight" (I look at the number eight and I see two rotations one on top of another - and the GIF maks perfect sense TO JUST THAT ONE THROWING TECHNIQUE) definition has already been extended to realms where an intelligent newcomer will just get confused trying to find a throwing technique filed under its sacred name.  I'm new enough and rebelious enough and outspoken enough to say it is a misleading, sacred cow and should be sacrificed on the alter of progress (my apologies to my Indian friends) before it leads us further away from the truth than it already has.  But I am also already on record of supporting C_A on this project so... strongly disagree about filing anything under the F8 name other than the throw depicted in the GIF, by Weaver, by Southpaw and also on Tint's  ...but still will support his final decision.
...and thanks for his efforts to date... it's obvious from his posts he has already put a lot of thought and effort into this.  Thanks Again!!!
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #9 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 8:53pm
 


Quote:
My background of classification and coding schemes is with aircraft parts with quantities of parts in the tens of thousands



I can identify with you to some degree.  Having experienced Cheyenne Aerotec's A&P program, it didn't take long to have my head swimming in a miasma of nomenclature.  I think that as long as we focus on the traversing arc as travelled by the ammo itself, the rest will fall into place.  It can be deceptive to describe a sling style by watching the arm's direction.  For instance, what some might describe as a 'sidearm' style, has been intuitively described by most, as simply an underhand style.  This, perhaps, because it is more natural for a slinger to describe the traversing arc of his ammo rather than what his arm may or may not be doing.



TS
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Gunsonwheels
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #10 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 10:19pm
 
I gotta admit I was looking at the angle described by the cords and not the arm at the moment of stone release...  it does appear the forearm is about the same as the cords.  I getting more and more glad C_A is doing this and not me...  but hey yeh... the focus should be the ammo in the pouch from start of the windup up to the actual release of what I call the trigger cord and its effect of stone release..
The classification and coding in aerospace was being driven by engineers designing new parts almost identical to something done before... the idea was to use the code to identify the previous part and allow the engineer to try and use the earlier design.  Boeing was never very successful at achieving that objective during my tenure there.  Maybe they just needed me to leave...
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George N
 
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #11 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:46am
 
Friends,

I am sitting here in stunned wonderment at the thoroughness of your classification system. I think we will have more categories than styles. Perhaps it will be like the periodic table of the elements where past chemists hadn't yet isolated some particular element but knew it had to exist because of the unfilled gap in the table. Grin We will have to invent styles to fill our gaps. (Perhaps I had better brush up on my Patagonian contra-rotatinal style.)

Nonsense aside, I would like to add one further complication; that of release style and grip. I always use a loop over my middle finger and have a wooden bead about the size of a very small acorn on the relese cord. This I hold between my bent index finger and thumb. The projectile always has a clockwise spin as seen from my point of view. But I know that others shoot with wide grip or hold both cords together and impart back or top spin etc. What do you think?

Regards,

Aussieslinger
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #12 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 3:57am
 

As with any niche sport, it's easy to put the cart before the horse.


Or in our case, more like putting the rickshaw before the human mule.  


Wait, I think they actually do put the rickshaw in front.  


Nevermind, bad metaphor.
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #13 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 8:13am
 
pretty sure most ricksahws are pulled not pushed. :-)
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Re: Throwing Technique Naming Conventions
Reply #14 - Apr 25th, 2007 at 11:22am
 

Well, alrighty then.....thanks for vindicating my highly relevant metaphor!


Mostly.


Huh


TS
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