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Ammo Prep (Read 1838 times)
Gunsonwheels
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Ammo Prep
Apr 13th, 2007 at 5:11pm
 
Has anyone out there ever gone the the creek bottom, picked out a small bucketful of the finest offerings for slinging and taken them home to put in the rock tumbler for a couple weeks???

The rockhounds and lapidary nuts usually have lots of samples around it it seems to me that the polishing would/could only improve the flight characteristics.  If I had to compete in a distance competition with "prospected"  (as opposed to poured) ammo I would definately polish... but any actual experience...???
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George N
 
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Markmyster
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #1 - Apr 13th, 2007 at 5:48pm
 
I think it may be that dimpled objects are the ones that travel faster. That is why golf balls are dimpled. There are some topics on this site that talk about this, it's called the Magnus effect.
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Gunsonwheels
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #2 - Apr 13th, 2007 at 6:05pm
 
The dimples on golf balls set up a scream coming off my sling akin to a sharp cornered stone and describe a curved flight any professional baseball picture would be proud to own but probably never able to control...   I do NOT believe golf balls are designed to fly far and straight IF they have a high rate of rotation in flight... I cannot suoort any other conclusion based on the way they come off my sling with my thrrowing style.


...come to think of it the curve direction (the plane the curve lies in) of a golfball should tell me the orientation of the patch at release which should in turn indicate if my technique will support a football-shaped gland being able to come off into a spiral of the gland.  I gotta go try this...  back later.
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George N
 
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Dale
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #3 - Apr 13th, 2007 at 6:17pm
 
Markmyster,
    Um, not quite.  The
Magnus effect
is what happens to a spinning projectile travelling through the air.  As the projectile spins, the air on one side is sucked past faster by the spinning of the ball, and the air on the other side is slowed as it passes.  This causes a sideways force on the projectile.  Oh, heck, just look at the picture at the Wikipedia link.

What you are talking about is an effect that I don't know a fancy physics or engineering name for, and I don't have a link to a nifty picture.  When air flows past a ball, there is drag from two sources: (1) the ball has to push air out of the way, so pressure is higher in front of the ball, and (2) the air cannot flow fast enough into the space just vacated by the ball, so the pressure is lower behind the ball.  But the drag on a teardrop-shaped projectile is less, because the air doesn't have to flow so fast to fill the space "gradually" being vacated by the elongated tail of the projectile.  Now, if the airflow around the ball is turbulent, instead of smooth, that turbulent air gets kind of sucked along with the ball and acts like a teardrop-shaped tail, as far as the rest of the surrounding air is concerned.  Magically, you have an elongated, tear-drop shaped ball -- as long as it is moving fast enough, and as long as the surface of the ball is slightly bumpy to make the airflow become turbulent.

All clear now?
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No, I don't live in a glass house.&&&&"If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."&&&&Context matters!  "Nothing but net" is a BAD thing in tennis...
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Dale
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #4 - Apr 13th, 2007 at 6:54pm
 
GunsOnWheels,
   Golf balls will fly far and straight, IF they have a backspin that is dead-on vertical.  A golf club naturally imparts a backspin to the ball, but getting it precisely vertical is the difference between Jack Nicklaus and ... well, me.  I have sliced a ball so severely, that it nearly took the nose off the guy five lanes to my right at the driving range.  My ball's backspin was so far off vertical, it was a sidespin!
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No, I don't live in a glass house.&&&&"If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."&&&&Context matters!  "Nothing but net" is a BAD thing in tennis...
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Gunsonwheels
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #5 - Apr 14th, 2007 at 6:38am
 
So... the wild trajectory of a golfball off my sling with my technique is attibuted to a very "off-vertical" spinning or back spin...?  If I have read and understand your explanation and the Wiki re the Magnus effect  then that's what's happening...   and If one could get it right (e.g. Jack Nicklaus) then the spin would be vertical, have minimal windage influence on the trajectory and would actually cause the projectile to rise which would increase the net distance it would travel...???

Is my understanding correct?

It seems to me if the dimples really do disrupt the boundary layer then a dimpled ball should fly straighter than a non-dimpled even if the spin is off vertical which seems to not be bourne out by my observed flight of a steel ball.  I've shot .750, .875 and 1.0 inch in diameter and all appear to fly straight and true compared to the wild arc I get with a golf ball.
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George N
 
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Matthias
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #6 - Apr 14th, 2007 at 11:42am
 
Once you change material all bets are off. In firearms you'd say that the steel ball has a different ballistic coefficient - although it is the same shape, it is much heavier relative to it's projected area/surface area than the golf ball. If you think of it in terms of momentum, it has a higher tendency to keep going straight, while the sideways forces are the same, or smaller.

A better test would be to either fill the dimples in (autobody putty?) or sand them smooth, which will change the diameter but not by too much. For the best comparison you'd like to get the ball as close to polished as possible. I don't think anyone (here) has done this, but if someone does, make sure to post the qualitative results - one more data point for my collection. Separating the magnus effects from the boundary layer transition effects is tough in practice, but the smooth ball should travel a shorter distance.

If I throw underhand/sidearm, a golfball veers down and right, with a vengeance.

I'm not sure what grip you are using, but an interesting experiment is to reverse the spin on the ball by switching which is the trailing cord. With most grips, the release cord is held "on top" of the fist, while the retention side goes somewhere between the fingers, or pinched with the release in a narrow grip. For a right-hander this normally leads to top/clockwise spin. If instead you run the retension cord up through your fist and out the gap at the base of your thumbe and forefinger you can reverse the rollout direction without changing your throw.

Matthias
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Dale
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #7 - Apr 14th, 2007 at 4:23pm
 
The interaction between the Magnus effect and the unnamed turbulent-boundary-layer effect, is not simple.  For a golf ball, IF the ball was not spinning (or it was spinning like a football or a rifle bullet -- that is, axis of spin in line with direction of flight) then a dimpled ball would fly farther than a smooth ball.  With the ball spinning, it flies farther with a backspin (a topspin will dive the ball right into the ground).  I'm not sure which effect predominates when a dimpled golf ball is spinning.
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No, I don't live in a glass house.&&&&"If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."&&&&Context matters!  "Nothing but net" is a BAD thing in tennis...
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Gunsonwheels
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #8 - Apr 14th, 2007 at 10:17pm
 
I appreciate being made aware of the above... it sounds like if someone really wanted to quantitatively measure all of this they would have to develop a mechanical "slinger" where the variables could be fairly precisely controlled and once set, repeat within a small deviation... how "precise" and how "small a deviation" probably TBD.  Seems like if one could develop such a "slinger" and then use ammunition which is loaded with multi-color LED's, shot at dusk and video'd at 30 to 40 thousand frames a second (so one could observe the rotation speed and direction)... aw heck... I'm not sure I want to know that badly.  If I had all the resources available I did before I retired then we could have a go at it but not now.  It would make an interesting test setup and wonderful data ciphering  opportunity though.

Thanks again
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George N
 
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1srelluc
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Re: Ammo Prep
Reply #9 - Apr 14th, 2007 at 10:30pm
 
It figures, I passed up a nice rock tumbler today at a yard sale for $10.00 Cry

Thats a great idea.
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