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Compound Sling (Read 21194 times)
jlasud
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #165 - Jun 21st, 2012, 6:19am
 
a 300g booster seems to be a good weight to a folded 1m compound sling.Whatcha think? Also that automatic release seems to me that could have problems not releasing,or releasing at the slightest slack of the cord. Of course it would have to be adjusted,but still..the biggest problem with this whole compound sling would be an automatic release,the rest is a piece of cake(finding the ammo booster weight ratio for ideal energy transfer)
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #166 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 6:49am
 
I've just come from theHURL.org where I was reading about a trebuchet using this two-stage compound sling.
The high school team has a successful model based on Matthias' theory.
 
As for usage in a hand sling, I have a hard time seeing how a 2/3 Lb (33g) booster would have enough mass to assist throwing a projectile of 1/2 Lbs. (200g or 8oz). As with a normal trebuchet, the out-swing of the projectile creates a centrifugal effect pulling against the forward motion of the Booster. I don't think that booster has enough mass to inertia it's way through the back pull and will stop swinging somewhere over the users head.
 
The concept is fascinating
I think I will do some experimenting with a weighted poll sling. Something like having a slip pin on a sledge hammer.
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jlasud
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #167 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 8:20am
 
Who would want a 300g booster with a 200g projectile? that's 500g+ ,it would be heavy and very inefficient. A 300g booster and a 50g projectile would be much more suitable. Although the ideal weights and their ratios will have to be tested.  
Chuck,what weights were those guys using,and with what degree of success?
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #168 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 9:24am
 
Quote from jlasud on Jul 22nd, 2012, 8:20am:
Who would want a 300g booster with a 200g projectile? that's 500g+ ,it would be heavy and very inefficient. A 300g booster and a 50g projectile would be much more suitable. Although the ideal weights and their ratios will have to be tested.
Chuck,what weights were those guys using,and with what degree of success?

 
Sorry, I don't have that data yet but I'll presume that they are aiming toward hurling a 10Lb pumpkin.
 
I realize that not everyone uses a hand sling for massive projectiles like I do but I guess I just don't know how much weight is considered standard by our slinging community. Right now I'm throwing wild Florida grapefruit, average weight about 2-Lbs estimated. Given an extrapolated booster weight of "way-too-much", I don't think I could handle it.
I have done cantalopes which weigh around 4-Lbs but they almost rip my arms off. I'm getting too old for that.
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #169 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 9:39am
 
I came to this party late.  A few pages back there were several links to a video of a working model of this 'compound sling' but the none of the links work for me.  They all lead to a 404 error 'page not found'?  Is there anyplace else that the video's are still available?
 
I'm also curious how the release issue was solved to allow controlled release at just the right point in the compound arc?
 
-Modified: Never mind on the release I found links to the pictures... but still no video.
 
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #170 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 10:17am
 
Quote from ChuckRocks on Jul 22nd, 2012, 9:24am:
Quote from jlasud on Jul 22nd, 2012, 8:20am:
Who would want a 300g booster with a 200g projectile? that's 500g+ ,it would be heavy and very inefficient. A 300g booster and a 50g projectile would be much more suitable. Although the ideal weights and their ratios will have to be tested.
Chuck,what weights were those guys using,and with what degree of success?


Sorry, I don't have that data yet but I'll presume that they are aiming toward hurling a 10Lb pumpkin.

I realize that not everyone uses a hand sling for massive projectiles like I do but I guess I just don't know how much weight is considered standard by our slinging community. Right now I'm throwing wild Florida grapefruit, average weight about 2-Lbs estimated. Given an extrapolated booster weight of "way-too-much", I don't think I could handle it.
I have done cantalopes which weigh around 4-Lbs but they almost rip my arms off. I'm getting too old for that.

 
The point of the compound sling would be to use the KE of a heavy booster to propel a lightweight projectile at very high speeds,unattainable with a conventional sling. For most of us one pound is about the max weight we would want to rotate around. Around 4 oz is the most popular,average ,conventional sling ammo weight for most of us.
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #171 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 10:41am
 
I noticed that in the photos and posts that I was able to read the release was 'automatic' by virtue of the energy storage weight sliding to hit a release hook at the apex of the arc of the secondary pouch.  I read a lot about needing to tune this to release at the right place.  It seems that this would make accuracy very challenging  since the release could not be 'adjusted' in realtime for variations in the spin up by the thrower.  I haven't tried any of this obviously and since I'm so new to this sport, I hope not to sound off and offend anyone, but may I suggest an alternate that might give control to the release.
 
Attach a second string to the sliding weight and adjust the length so the weight is restrained only a fraction of an inch from the release hook.  The separation would have to be enough to ensure that the weight didn't hit the hook prematurely due to stretch of the restraining cord.  The other end of the restraining cord would be knotted and held in the fingers just like the release side of a conventional sling.  When the thrower times his/her throw and senses the pouch reaching the chosen release point the secondary restraint/release cord is released and the weight slides the fraction of an inch and releases the actual release cord of the pouch.
 
It might take some getting used to the lag from the release of the restraint cord to the release of the actual pouch release cord but I think it would not be much different from the lag in the firing of a flintlock rifle in compensating for the pan flash to actual ignition... something every flintlock shooter does in shooting at a moving target.  
 
If this is an unworkable suggestion, for some reason I haven't seen in my brief time looking at this problem please forgive my intrusion, but my first career was as a theoretical physicist and I'm fascinated by these kind of problems.
 
-namuh1
 
Modified: After looking deeper I'm afraid it would not work Sad
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« Last Edit: Jul 22nd, 2012, 12:19pm by namuh1 »  
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #172 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 12:30pm
 
Your analysis is fairly close about having little control over the ballast, but it does not affect the point that the sling releases at very much. The hook automatically releases at the same spot on every throw the same way a staff sling does. This is adjusted by changing the length of one sling cord in relation to the other. The sliding ballast only adjusts the length of the second sling, which increases the angular velocity at the end of the second sling, making it move faster. It's possible to make a compound sling with a fixed ballast, but it will be less efficient at transferring energy from the ballast to the projectile. The sliding of the ballast is the way that the compound sling's designers chose to throw small, light projectiles with the speed that they could a larger projectile. By the time the ballast hits the hook the sling will have already released, though it needs to be tuned a little so that the ballast will have transferred as much energy to the projectile as possible (which will happen close to, but not during impact with the hook since that can decrease accuracy). Attaching a string to the ballast is not a ideal solution for this because it bleeds energy from the ballast. Given that primer, welcome aboard! As you can see, this is a complex task and we can use all the help we can get!
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #173 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 1:34pm
 
Your explanation is precisely the conclusion I reached after opening my mouth when I shouldn't have.  At first glance I didn't think about the fact that the ballast is released when the pouch is released.  I was only thinking about the release of the secondary.  After further observation, I saw that the real impulse of energy came from the sliding of the ballast in much larger ratio than it's presence in the first place... exactly as you recounted.  I'm not sure that I follow your comment that the hook will have already released by the time the ballast hits the hook?  I'll have to make some calculations regarding the event before I make any more mistakes but this is one of the most fascinating problems in multiple body motion I've encountered, not to mention the fun of making one of these things and getting it to work!
 
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #174 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 7:10pm
 
Quote from jlasud on Jul 22nd, 2012, 10:17am:
Quote from ChuckRocks on Jul 22nd, 2012, 9:24am:
Quote from jlasud on Jul 22nd, 2012, 8:20am:
Who would want a 300g booster with a 200g projectile? that's 500g+ ,it would be heavy and very inefficient. A 300g booster and a 50g projectile would be much more suitable. Although the ideal weights and their ratios will have to be tested.
Chuck,what weights were those guys using,and with what degree of success?


Sorry, I don't have that data yet but I'll presume that they are aiming toward hurling a 10Lb pumpkin.

I realize that not everyone uses a hand sling for massive projectiles like I do but I guess I just don't know how much weight is considered standard by our slinging community. Right now I'm throwing wild Florida grapefruit, average weight about 2-Lbs estimated. Given an extrapolated booster weight of "way-too-much", I don't think I could handle it.
I have done cantalopes which weigh around 4-Lbs but they almost rip my arms off. I'm getting too old for that.


The point of the compound sling would be to use the KE of a heavy booster to propel a lightweight projectile at very high speeds,unattainable with a conventional sling. For most of us one pound is about the max weight we would want to rotate around. Around 4 oz is the most popular,average ,conventional sling ammo weight for most of us.

 
Thanks Jlasud,
Now, did I miss the explanation for how the design overcomes centrifugal retardation of the booster?
I beleave the booster concept can be made to work on a trebuchet but I strongly doubt it working for a hand sling without a whole lot of tweeking and perfect repitition of motion by the slinger.
 
Also, why would anyone want to sling anything small? Who slings BBs?
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #175 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 9:58pm
 
  Great idea.  I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I have made and seen bullroarers on the end of a pole, you don't swing the pole but you kind of rotate it in a sort of butter churning motion, it works kind of the way a screwdriver works increasing the torque with a longer handle.  A bullroarer on the on the end of a stick needs only a very short cord to make it work but it needs a long one without it.  I suppose you could try the same thing with a sling and there would be different ways to release it, including a hook that it slips off when you tilt it or run the cord through a ring down to the hand hold and let go of it.
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #176 - Jul 22nd, 2012, 10:51pm
 
So let me get this straight. The counterweight takes the place of the normal pouch, and the loaded pouch takes the place of the release cord.  
 
when you wind up, W accelerates up to normal sling speeds. As you release, first R2 opens up and extends at close to speed of sound velocities (what normally makes a crack), then RL opens, and the stone inside is released at much higher velocities as normal. W must be pretty heavy to be able to generate the speed needed for RL+ammo to open at high speeds.  
 
My thought is that rather than having a pouch, a slip knot or something of the sort could be used instead. The loop would be very wide to safely hold a stone, while the running end would be anchored on R1, similar to a captive release sling. On release, when R1 and R2 attempt to separate and open up, R1 (anchored to the slip knot) would yank on the running end and release the knot, allowing the stone to fly free. The knot end would have to have enough slack to allow the sling to open fully and gain max speed before going taut and yanking the sling open. It would also have to undo itself in a way where it doesn't get in the way of the stones release, so that accuracy isn't affected too much.  
 
I would think that something like a grapeshot sling, with one end covered with a flap would be the best, only that the flap could only be opened when yanked on. This would allow for the smoothest opening. Rather than using a bottle or can, you'd have to use an actual bag like thing, that would be just large enough to hold things in place (so that it wouldn't get in the way too much, and still go fast enough). I would think the ammo would best be something like 1/2 inch steel ball, or small pebble. It would be light enough to go at optimum speed, assuming W is heavy enough. It should be something that someone could normally pick up off the ground, maintaining the slings versatility (two big words [for me] in one sentence while out of an essay, wow).
 
BUT: by having the easy release system you wouldn't have to deal with the added bulk of RL.  
 
The release has to be infinitely reusable until worn through too, once again still being as versatile as a normal sling. It might be easier to have the ammo held onto RL by a thin strand of something that will break as soon as the sling hits a high speed, but it will be very slow to reload, slightly less safe, and not as self sustaining.  
 
My best guess for pouch is a circle with very shallow cupping, so that when a 1/2 in steel ball is placed in it, 1/3 of it is covered. There would be slits on the edge of the pouch for a wide strap to pass through. This would face outward and would hold the steel ball in place. One end of the strap should taper and be attached to R1, the other should be held in one of the slits in the pouch by friction or something that would give when yanked on.  
 
Am I even close to what the original purpose of the compound sling is? This is just based on the OP and Masi's diagram.
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #177 - Jul 23rd, 2012, 12:50am
 
I'm not exactly sure I understand your proposal about a slip knot, kid.
 
To answer your question, the original purpose of the compound sling was to sling lighter weight projectiles with a higher speed than is normally possible with a sling. Potential Energy is stored in the ballast and transferred to the projectile as Kinetic Energy during the second, automatic release. The compound sling works just like a staff sling at the moment of release, but the complicated booster mass mechanism makes it so that the second sling moves faster than a staff sling ever could.
 
C_A did a great job of explaining the benefits, and operating principles of the compound sling.
Quote from curious_aardvark on Mar 25th, 2007, 8:30am:
Not so adaxl the enrgy you put into the booster mass is converted directly into the missile via the longer cord.
What it should allow you to do (if correctly made and working) is to put a lot more strength into the throw itself.
The heavier the missie in a normal sling the harder you can pull against it without straining your own muscles (it's like throwing a punch and missing, the hader you punch the more you hurt yourself when you miss).
The problem with a conventional sling is that sure you can use heavier ammo and up to a point you will get more distance. But at a certain weight your own strength will start to tell against you and the velocity will drop - even if you are putting more effort into the throw.
With this method you can put a lot of effort into a fairly slow throw which is then directly converted into a much faster throw with a lighter missile.

If it helps, think of it as gearing. High gearing on a bike lets you push really hard and pedal slowly but the wheels go round faster than low gearing where you pedal faster but with less effort and the wheels go round proportionally slower.

 
Quote from curious_aardvark on Mar 27th, 2007, 6:02am:
Ah ha finally a bit I can answer again lol
Forget the maths and the mechanics - don't have the inclination to tackle those, but I do actually understand the principle involved and for me jureks drawing makes things perfectly clear. And I do know about the physiology Smiley

Funslinger The main reason we get sore joints when attempting to sling missiles - literally - out of sight,  is that we are moving our joints as fast as we can to transfer that speed into the sling. And to a certain extent even with a reasonable weight missile we're still putting in a lot more effort than can be efficiently translated into the missile (we're back to the punching and missing again).

This method relies on the slower application of force. It's like picking something fairly light up from the ground and doing so as fast as you can. Very easy to bugger your back up. If you pick something much heavier up with a more measured lift, your body will be working more efficiently and less likely to cause problems.

This compound sling works on the same principle. You are expending the same amount of energy, but in a more controlled and efficient manner.
Also you are using a much longer release cord - so effectively, if it works, you can sling with a 6 foot sling while retainng the velocity that you can manually impart to a 3 foot sling.

The impact on the slingers body should be less because your muscles are working more in harmony and with greater efficiency.   Smiley

I do have to say matthias that yureks design [sliding booster mass] does look a lot more elegant than yours sounds Wink
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #178 - Jul 23rd, 2012, 1:40am
 
Quote from ChuckRocks on Jul 22nd, 2012, 7:10pm:

Thanks Jlasud,
Now, did I miss the explanation for how the design overcomes centrifugal retardation of the booster?
I beleave the booster concept can be made to work on a trebuchet but I strongly doubt it working for a hand sling without a whole lot of tweeking and perfect repitition of motion by the slinger.

Also, why would anyone want to sling anything small? Who slings BBs?

 
I undrstand the overall concept but,i'm not far beyond that,for me actual prototypes would tell me what's up.For now i'm too busy to start working on this.
Some of us would rather see a 50g lead,or stone projectile flying at 150 m\s, than a 5 pound rock at 15 m\s,me included, also you can carry more 50g ammo,and sling farther than 5 pound ones,and they would be extremely powerful.
Sort of like how medieval handguns used  1" lead balls and today's handguns use tiny bullets that are much faster and more efficient.  
I could have hired you to sling big stones to build my houses foundation Cheesy
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Re: Compound Sling
Reply #179 - Jul 23rd, 2012, 9:12am
 
I'm working on the mechanics to understand what's going on here. For the sake of endless repetition I see the breakdown this way:
 
With a static ballast, i.e. one that is fixed and does not slide, the effect is like an inefficient staff sling.  Why? Because the ballast is not transferring its energy to anything but simply acting as a 'stabilizer' against which the secondary retaining string rotates.  Without the ballast in this configuration the rotational energy imparted to the pouch at the end of the secondary retainer would be absorbed by flexion in the primary string thus subtracting from the transfer of energy that a stiff staff would impart.  With the ballast and to the degree that the ballast resists flexion in the primary string because of its mass, the system works like a staff sling where the transfer of energy is increased only because of the longer moment arm created by the primary string added to the slingers arm.
 
Since this whole problem is about rotational velocity:
 
The sliding ballast system works in a very very different manner.  Here the ballast actually does store energy that is transferred to the pouch on release of the pouch from the hand.  It does so because it 'effectively' pulls the secondary retention string shorter as it slides out to the end of its travel as the pouch at the end of the secondary retention string (along which the ballast is sliding) spins up around the center of mass of the ballast.  This is conservation of momentum of the pouch which is seen every day in school yards.  On the spinning platforms that the kids push into circular motion and then jump on the kids can substantially increase the rotational velocity by moving their bodies closer to the center of the spinning platform.  It may seem backwards to the spinning pouch but it is the same mechanically.  As the radius of the secondary retaining string is shortened by the sliding ballast, the momentum of the pouch is kept constant by the pouch increasing it rotational velocity exactly as the originators of this design wanted.  You can test this simply by tying a rock to a string and passing the string through a sewing thimble.  Then whirl the string/rock combination over your head helicopter style but by holding the thimble as the center of rotation and the end of the string in the other hand to keep it from flying off.  Then while the rock is spinning around, pull the string shorter through the thimble and observe that the rock moves faster the shorter you pull the string.  You will also feel why the mass of the ballast is important because your hand holding the thimble will feel quite some force to resist being pulled out of line as you shorten the string through it.
 
In truth, this is a simplification of the real problem.  For example there are second order effects that do contribute to the problem.  The fixed ballast does, in fact, interact to some degree with the energy given to the pouch because its mass must resist, by inertia, being displaced by the rotating mass of the pouch pulling on it, but I believe that this is a second order effect and contributes little to (and may even detract from) the pouches energy compared to the increase in moment arm achieved by the long strings.  This would be a terrific problem to assign to a graduate physics class in mechanics, better even than the classic dragster problem.
 
My skill with differential equations is 40 years old so I've asked a friend, more competent than I am, to work out the actual mechanics so I'm hoping to have a more complete and accurate description of the problem in a few weeks.  In the meantime, I've GOT to try making one of these things!
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