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clay projectiles (Read 3633 times)
lee
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clay projectiles
Feb 3rd, 2007 at 5:50pm
 
Hello all,

This may have been a topic on this forum before, but for my benefit I'll ask again... At the moment I'm doing some research on Neolithic sling projectiles. As you may be aware, those recovered from excavations of Neolithic sites in, for example, Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria etc. are made of clay (mostly biconical in shape). My question is quite simply, how effective would such clay projectiles have been? Would they have made good weapons in conflict, or would they have been too light, or even disintegrated on impact? There have been suggestions that that they would probably only have sufficed as a means by which shepherds were able to frighten away wild animals from their flocks.
I would be most grateful for any insights from those with any experience or knowledge in this field.
Many thanks,
Lee
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Tint
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #1 - Feb 3rd, 2007 at 8:13pm
 
If the clay were dried or baked, they could do some damage.

Welcome to the forum, Lee.
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #2 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 2:10am
 
Hi Lee,

These clay glands must have been effective for the people that made them othewise they would not have persisted in making them when stones could be had for much less effort.

The chief advantage of manufactured projectiles of any sort is consistency of performance which translates to superior accuracy, ie. these slingers meant to hit their targets at a reasonable distance. If these projectiles were carefully shaped, not just clods of clay, it would point to fully competent slingers who knew what they were doing. I do not know how large or well finished these particular glands are but assume their finish is consistent and good.

As for effectiveness at killing whatever they were shooting at and I assume this means human enemies, this would depend a lot on the size and hardness of these clay balls and how heavily armoured were those being hit. A clay gland the size of a softball travelling at 100mph which is a conservative speed, would certainly kill a man if it hit him in the face. A similar shot to the chest would require extremely good armour to prevent it being fatal but would still knock a man down and disable him, as would hits to the abdomen or unprotected thighs. A hit taken on the shield would have its energy absorbed by the arm and provided the shield was strong enough, would probably not unduly worry the intended victim. Smaller projectiles would not be quite so destructive but would have higher velocities and carry further.

Shepherds would probably use much lighter slings and ammunition if their intention was merely to frighten off potential predators. Just as modern riflemen select their weapons to suit their quarry, ancient slingers would have selected the appropriate equipment to do the job.

It would be fascinating to reproduce some of these clay glands and put them to the test.

Regads,

Aussieslinger
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lee
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #3 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 5:46am
 
Thanks for the warm welcome to the forum, Tint. It’s great to have the opportunity to correspond with an audience with practical experience in slinging matters. In fact, after going through the site, I’m certainly tempted to start doing my own experiments, i.e. constructing my own sling and producing my own Neolithic projectiles!

Anyway, on reading Aussieslinger’s comments (excellent, thanks for those), I realised that you probably need a bit more background information.

The Neolithic glands (is this the correct terminology?) measure an average 6 cm in length, with an average diameter of 3 cm. They are rather standarised in shape: a classical ovoid (biconical) shape, with 2 more or less pointed butts. On the basis of 13 finds of clay glands from the site of Tell Azmak in Bulgaria (circa 6000-5800 BC), these projectiles can weigh anything between 30 to 75 grams. The projectiles often have a slightly flattened surface on which they can rest without rolling over. This probably stems from the drying process, where it is believed that, after forming, they were placed next to ovens to dry. Thus, these glands were not well baked, but simply dried.

Some questions:

-Would the biconical have suited some types of sling better than others?
-It was mentioned (Aussieslinger) that the advantages of manufactured projectiles is their consistency in performance and accuracy. Am I to take it that this would be the case with the biconical form?
-As to the potential targets. If slings had been used against humans during periods of conflict, the “enemies” would probably not have been particularly well protected (I suspect a basic leather armour may have been used for this purpose, though there is certainly no archaeological evidence for this assumption; as for shields – could be??).
Given these facts, would poorly baked clay glands still have caused damage? Or were these things destined for the smaller slings of shepherds?

Oh, so many questions. I hope this is not too tedious for you. Thanks for your time,

Lee
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #4 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 6:38am
 
biconical shape is not better suited for some sling types than the others, but it's rather the aerodinamics and maximizing the range, by lessening the drag that they are best suited for. and ofcourse, if you can get bullet rotation, all the better (i think lobohunter describes how to get your glans go point-first, wich improves their penetration power)

any type of ammunition that's manufactured, and keeps same size and weight (is consistent) improves consistency with range and accuracy, simply because you get used to it's specifics, and don't need to consider different properties of your ammo for every shot.

we are sure that there were slinging "sharpshooters" (we have some written sources on this site), but maby it would be more appropriate to think of slingers as of artillery batteries, rather than marksmen, because they don't need to aim at certain enemy, try and immagine a hail of glans that could 30-50 slingers unsleash on the group of advancing enemies. (aim at the group, and you'll probably hit someone in it Tongue )


try making a sling, and drie a few glans, so after you get the basics with a tennis ball, you can try and see what demage can you do with clay glans, and what kind of range, so compare it with the ranges on this site, and you could get a nice picture Smiley


p.s. it may be more appropriate if you say that neolithic glans FROM Tell Azmak measure an average ...., because i'm sure that someplace else, in the same period, the measures could be quite different.


hope it helps, and no, nicely structured questions are never tedious.
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #5 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 8:10am
 
Welcome to the forum, Lee!

I don't see why a shepherd would bother with making these projectiles just for herding.

Depending on the quality of the clay, I would expect them to remain intact in contact with a soft body (animal or human!).

Shaping these sling bullets can bring a very great increase in effectiveness, provided that they can be
slung point wise. I have no reason to doubt that slingers then could do this.
The increase in effectiveness isn't just shown at long range, for possible 'artillery bombardments', but also at shorter ranges perhaps more appropriate for hunting.

I reckon, based on some aerodynamics math, that a given weight projectile will strike with the same speed at more than 2.5 times the distance if it is ellipsoidally shaped as opposed to spherical, when launched at
the same speed. That's a big increase for a hunter - and given the narrowing of the ellipsoidal slug it is
also more penetrative when it arrives at its target. All of a sudden, something you needed to get within
20yds of is in trouble at 50!






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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #6 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 12:30pm
 
Many times the clay glandes also had stones and other debris in them to increase damage potential.
  Clay glandes are still made and used today by shepards. What happens is the glande hits the animal ( let's say sheep) and hits it hard enough to get it's attention without hurting it. That way, it can be led from a distance. The same with predators. It recieves a good blow without really hurting it.
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #7 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 1:22pm
 
I was recently at the neolitic site at Newgrange in Ireland where I spoke with the staff at some length about slings and their use among the original inhabitants of the area. While all were of the opinion that slings were in general use there, none have survived or been discovered yet. Of course there is still alot of excavation to do, so we may still get lucky.  Everyone there also felt that no particular ammo was especially made for slings. What was used was whatever was picked up. However, among the disply of recovered items are numerous round stone balls ranging in size from marble size to fist size that no one knows the purpose of. Ammo?  Who knows?
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #8 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 2:34pm
 
I have been doing some slinging with clay ammo for some time.
In my case I started using clay glandes because searching proper stones costed more time than making clay ones. I have found out that dried clay makes nice ammo, but that it will shatter when hitting somthing solid (a tree trunk for instance). When I tried baked clay about 30% of the shots survived impact and the broken ones didn't shatter but just broke in two.

In my opinion dried clay ammo would be best suited for hunting small game or herding.
From my own experiance I'm pretty shure baked clay ammo could be used in conflicts.

Hope this helps a little.

Rodrieguez
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #9 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 8:29pm
 
Lee,

Around here, many of us use the Latin word glans (plural glandes) to refer to projectiles molded or cast from lead, clay, concrete and the like, especially if they have an elliptical or biconical shape.  The word is derived for the Latin word for "acorn."

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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #10 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 9:05pm
 
I'll admit that I have not read the whole thread yet, but maybe some math can help:

You say that some of these weighed in at 75 grams.
It is accepted that slinging projectiles can exceed 400 kilometers per hour.

So,

1/2(.075kg)(111m/s)^2=460J

Leaving the sling, that glande is packing 460 Joules of stopping power. The biconical shape if thrown with a proper spin (think of a football spiral coming from Tom Brady) will make it highly efficient at cutting through the air, and reduce the impact of air resistance.
For comparison, a 22 caliber long rifle will deliver 190 joules, while a .45 caliber Automatic Colt Pistol comes in at 450 joules.
Granted, bullets and glandes work in different ways. Bullets are designed to penetrate, whereas sling projectiles are basically designed to induce blunt force trauma. As a bullet enters your body, it is gradually slowed down. This increases time of impact, thus reducing the force which is applied. The bullet works its magic by cutting up organs and arteries. A sling projectile on the other hand will bounce off, making the time of impact much smaller, increasing the amount of force applied geometrically.  Thus, the big, blunt sling glande will not penetrate like a bullet, but rather, will crush whatever it happens to strike (read: skull).

You can decide whether or not it could have been used for killing, but I don't think you're going to find many slingers willing to stand downrange of anything weighing much more than a tube of chapstick.


*Interesting note: the .45 ACP I've been referencing is actually generally recognized as being much more powerful than 'faster and lighter' bullets. This is due to it's larger, and blunter shape. Thus, the reason this is a more effective round in the world of guns, is also the reason that I'm claiming the sling has more stopping power.
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #11 - Feb 4th, 2007 at 9:14pm
 
More thoughts (having read the thread):

It all depends on the sort of clay. As has been mentioned, it is possible to have clay glandes which will disintegrate upon impact, and not cause any real damage. However, let us not forget that clay glandes have been found stacked behind the walls of cities in preperation for war: http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/01/16/D8MMNSM00.html

Lee, Welcome here! Definitely go ahead and experiment, it's fun!
What's your reasearch for?
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lee
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #12 - Feb 5th, 2007 at 7:51am
 
Thanks everyone for the great response. The research is part of my Phd thesis in Prehistory which I’m currently preparing here in Cologne, Germany. The focus of my project is the transitional period from Late Neolithic to Early Chalcolithic in Anatolia and the Levant, and the spread of Neolithic cultures into Southeastern Europe, all of which occurred at roughly the same time (approx. 6400-5800 BC).
Those of you who know the work of M. Korfmann (1972) will be aware of the fact that this period is also characterised by the domination of the sling, with a contemporaneous reduction in the use of bow and arrow. This is reflected in the many finds of, particularly biconical, clay glandes (cheers, Dale) and a drop in the number of flint/obsidian arrowheads recovered from archaeological sites. The still unresolved question in archaeological spheres is why this happened.
In this respect, it should be noted that the time period in question is also characterised by social turbulence and possibly even endemic displacement, with a shift of population from eastern (Levant) to more western parts (Anatolia), (see, M. Özdogan, On Arrows and Sling Missiles: What happened to the Arrows. In: Mauerschau. Festschrift for M. Korfmann, 2002: p. 437-444).
One explanation offered by Özdogan for the reduction in the number of obsidian arrowheads (and obsidian tools in general) is his proposal that the obsidian specialists, i.e. the obsidian-knappers, also disappear.

Be this as it may, my main question is, do these clay glandes fit in with the social unrest argument? Can we assume that they were, among other thing (e.g. hunting, shepherding), used in conflict between rival groups.
Furthermore, if the transition from bow and arrow to sling was a consciuos decision, what advantages would slingers have had over archers?

Oh my….. Any ideas, folks???

Lee
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #13 - Feb 5th, 2007 at 10:33am
 
lee wrote on Feb 5th, 2007 at 7:51am:
Thanks everyone for the great response. The research is part of my Phd thesis in Prehistory which I’m currently preparing here in Cologne, Germany.


A neighbor!  Smiley Ich studiere in Aachen.

lee wrote on Feb 5th, 2007 at 7:51am:
Be this as it may, my main question is, do these clay glandes fit in with the social unrest argument? Can we assume that they were, among other thing (e.g. hunting, shepherding), used in conflict between rival groups.
Furthermore, if the transition from bow and arrow to sling was a consciuos decision, what advantages would slingers have had over archers?


The weapon and especially the ammunition are much cheaper. It is said that slingers had a higher range than archers. There's more about this in the articles of slinging.org.
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Re: clay projectiles
Reply #14 - Feb 5th, 2007 at 6:13pm
 
Ahh, sling vs. bow. You may have opened a can of worms  Smiley
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