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Is it real? David and Goliath (Read 91792 times)
Fundibularius
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #270 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 2:44pm
 
Why not look at the text? (1 Sam 17, 40 ff):

40 He took his stick in his hand, selected five smooth stones from the river bed and put them in his shepherd's bag, in his pouch; then, sling in hand, he walked towards the Philistine. 
[...]
48 No sooner had the Philistine started forward to confront David than David darted out of the lines and ran to meet the Philistine. 
49 Putting his hand in his bag, he took out a stone, slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead; the stone penetrated his forehead and he fell face downwards on the ground. 
50 Thus David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; he hit the Philistine and killed him, though he had no sword in his hand. 
51 David ran and stood over the Philistine, seized his sword, pulled it from the scabbard, despatched him and cut off his head
. When the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they fled. 
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Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

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wanderer
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #271 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 4:37pm
 
Fundibularius wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 2:44pm:
Why not look at the text? (1 Sam 17, 40 ff):

Yes. Good idea Wink

However I recall that there was scholarly debate about whether Goliath was even hit in the head rather than the knee (!). This is mentioned in passing in the early pages (at least) of this thread.

In that case the sling-stone would hardly have been the cause of death. The presumption was that translations had rather glossed over the detail of the original text.

I have no idea what the current consensus regarding that is. Sad
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slingbadger
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #272 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:09pm
 
Goliath certainly could have been knocked out by a sling. If he was laying there, no moving, he would seem dead.
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The greatest of all the accomplishments of 20th cent. science has been the discovery of human ignorance  The main difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits.-Einstein   I'm getting psychic as I get older. Or is that psychotic?
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #273 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:32pm
 
AFAIK there is no account of this event that doesn't get its origin from the Biblical one, so refer to it.

The passage quoted above is fairly specific. The stone penetrated the skull and Goliath received a mortal wound. David decapitated him with his own sword but even if was technically still alive the decaptation was not required to cause death. Decapitating fallen enemies and displaying their heads was quite common.
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wanderer
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #274 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 6:13pm
 
Aussie wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:32pm:
AFAIK there is no account of this event that doesn't get its origin from the Biblical one, so refer to it.

The passage quoted above is fairly specific. The stone penetrated the skull and Goliath received a mortal wound. David decapitated him with his own sword but even if was technically still alive the decaptation was not required to cause death. Decapitating fallen enemies and displaying their heads was quite common.

The discussion I mentioned rested on the argument that Hebrew words for "forehead" and "knee" are closely related, and on, if I understand the paper (not certain!) a change in the inflection of the noun between an earlier text and later ones. Also that in most (though not all) cases the armor of the Philistines is shown as entirely covering the forehead.

The author of the paper remarks that the currently held translation meaning "forehead" was puzzled over by Jewish scholars in Medieval times.
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Aussie
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #275 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 9:49pm
 
Greetings Wanderer,

Interesting! Do you have the source? I'll go and read the text again with that in mind to see if it "flows". However if it was a deliberate shot it would be a smaller target than his head. Would you fall forward on your face after being hit in the knee? Very painful of course but a tough warrior may not be fully incapacitated by such an injury.

Regards,

Aussie.


PS. Just re-read the text and the knee injury doesn't sound very likely based on the English translation.

It says the stone, "sank in"; consistent with a head injury, cracking the skull and penetrating the soft brain inside, but would you say that about hitting the knee? Broke, smashed or crushed seem more likely.

Verse 50 specifically says David prevailed without a sword in his hand, ie. Goliath was dead or as good as dead, from the sling shot alone. Again the knee injury doesn't seem consistent.
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Fundibularius
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #276 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 3:53am
 
Aussie wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:32pm:
The passage quoted above is fairly specific. The stone penetrated the skull and Goliath received a mortal wound. David decapitated him with his own sword but even if was technically still alive the decaptation was not required to cause death. Decapitating fallen enemies and displaying their heads was quite common.


Furthermore, David had promised to do so in the rhetorical duel in the passage I had left out above:

41 The Philistine, preceded by his shield-bearer, came nearer and nearer to David. 
42 When the Philistine looked David up and down, what he saw filled him with scorn, because David was only a lad, with ruddy cheeks and an attractive appearance. 
43 The Philistine said to David, 'Am I a dog for you to come after me with sticks?' And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. 
44 The Philistine said to David, 'Come over here and I will give your flesh to the birds of the air and the wild beasts!' 
45 David retorted to the Philistine, 'You come to me with sword, spear and scimitar, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh Sabaoth, God of the armies of Israel, whom you have challenged. 
46 Today, Yahweh will deliver you into my hand; I shall kill you, I shall cut off your head; today, I shall give your corpse and the corpses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air and the wild beasts, so that the whole world may know that there is a God in Israel, 
47 and this whole assembly know that Yahweh does not give victory by means of sword and spear -- for Yahweh is lord of the battle and he will deliver you into our power.' 

It was surely Goliathīs sword wich was used for the decapitation, as David went into the duel only with his staff and his sling. This is stressed several times: once in verse 40, then in verse 43, and, before the whole description, in these verses:

38 Saul dressed David in his own armour; he put a bronze helmet on his head, dressed him in a breastplate 
39 and buckled his own sword over David's armour. David tried to walk but, not being used to them, said to Saul, 'I cannot walk in these; I am not used to them.' So they took them off again. 

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Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
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Fundibularius
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #277 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 5:47am
 
As for the words for "kneecap" and "forehead" in Hebrew, I think Shimshon Hagibor can tell us more.

Though I agree with Aussie that "kneecap" wouldnīt make much sense in the whole context.
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Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #278 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 6:06pm
 
It seems that to the question: Did the battle between David and Goliath really happened?  thereīs just no way of knowing.
But to the question: Can a slingshot to the head kill a really big man in armor? All of us who have been slinging for a while, know that the answer is yes.

Itīs unlikely weīll reach consensus to whether the event happened or not. Killing a man with a sling, for sure.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #279 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 4:49am
 
Rockman wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 6:06pm:
It seems that to the question: Did the battle between David and Goliath really happened?  thereīs just no way of knowing.
But to the question: Can a slingshot to the head kill a really big man in armor? All of us who have been slinging for a while, know that the answer is yes.

Itīs unlikely weīll reach consensus to whether the event happened or not. Killing a man with a sling, for sure.


I fully agree.

Many people don't believe the story ultimately because they choose not to. Others like myself are biased in favour, and I admit it is a bias. However the story is in itself quite plausible and is not something that can only be explained in terms of a miracle, it definitely could have happened.
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Rockman
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #280 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 5:14pm
 
Speaking of which, anyone knows the distance of the opponents at the begibning of a traditional duel like this?
The Baleric slinger demo of D&G was a 15 meter shot. Does anyone know this for a fact? Or is it an educated guess?
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #281 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 6:32pm
 
As David and Goliath shouted at each other immediately before the shot they have been within a distance that allowed to understand what the other said. I estimate this being about 30 m, maximum 50 m. 

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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #282 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 12:01pm
 
Remember that after the shouting match Goliath begins to approach David, then David runs toward Goliath, and then suddenly use his sling. 
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Fundibularius
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #283 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 1:23pm
 
According to the report in 1 Sam 17, they may have started the rhetorical duel from the opposing slopes of a valley, as such was the space between their two armies:

"1 The Philistines mustered their troops for war; they assembled at Socoh in Judah and pitched camp between Socoh and Azekah, in Ephes-Dammim.  
2 Saul and the Israelites also mustered, pitching camp in the Valley of the Terebinth, and drew up their battle-line opposite the Philistines.  
3 The Philistines occupied the high ground on one side and the Israelites occupied the high ground on the other side, with the valley between them.  
4 A champion stepped out from the Philistine ranks; his name was Goliath, from Gath; [...]
8 Taking position in front of the Israelite lines, he shouted: ..."

This would mean that they both had to run downhill in order to meet at the bottom of the valley.

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Ferrugo numquam dormit.&&(Nigellus Iuvenis)&&&&

Noch weiz ich an im mere daz mir ist bekant
einen lintrachen  slouch des heledes hant
do badet er in dem blvote  des ist der helt gemeit
von also vester hvte  daz in nie wafen sit versneit.
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #284 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 8:09pm
 
"...and the Stone Sank into His Forehead". A Note on 1 Samuel XVII 49
Ariella Deem
Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 28, Fasc. 3 (Jul., 1978), pp. 349-351

-- argues that the word is "greave" and not forehead
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