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Is it real? David and Goliath (Read 94256 times)
axon50
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #225 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm
 
the bible is the oldest record of history ever, it tells us not to lie, it tells us not to be hypocrites, so if they say all that what point would their be to lie? The bible so far has never been proven rong, most other common belief systems have been or are ridiculios any way. why should the bible be rong? the idea of god has always no matter how far back in history you go, all of man's idea's have faded or lost momentum, but the idea of god has always been their. Smiley
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Žęr węron ongemang eallra žisra rinca seofone hund manna ža že węron wineserhande, žara ęlc cuše weorpan stan mid lišere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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Lasse C
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #226 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 3:35am
 
axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm:
the bible is the oldest record of history ever, it tells us not to lie, it tells us not to be hypocrites, so if they say all that what point would their be to lie? The bible so far has never been proven rong, most other common belief systems have been or are ridiculios any way. why should the bible be rong? the idea of god has always no matter how far back in history you go, all of man's idea's have faded or lost momentum, but the idea of god has always been their. Smiley


Oh, my goodness...
So because the bible tells us not to lie, this means the bible itself by definition has to be true in every little aspect and detail?  
And as a consequence of this most other beliefs are wrong or at least ridiculous?
Do you seriously and honestly mean that? ...

I remember what made me turn my back on Christianity. It was people thinking and saying things like that...

Oh, man... I“m out of this discussion. (On the other hand, it was against better judgment I got into it in the first place.) ...


Lasse C
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #227 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 12:21pm
 
axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm:
the bible is the oldest record of history ever...

Not so.  The Israelites were comparative newcomers on the Middle Eastern scene.  Some Sumerian records date back to the 4th century B.C.E., 3000 years before the bible was written and 2000 years before the Jews, Judea, and Jehovah even existed.  Many Egyptian records are almost as old.  Heck, even the Iliad and the Odyssey are older than the bible, and have at least as good a historical basis.  These all make fascinating reading, particularly if you're interested in the evolution of Western religions, cultures, and legal codes.

No slings in any of them, alas.  But the Greeks and Trojans do throw a lot of rocks at each other in the Iliad ("Uf da!"  BONK!  "Ouch!"), so at least their hearts were in the right place Smiley
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #228 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 4:03pm
 
Lasse C wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 3:35am:
http://www.langkawi.dk/smileys/a1374.gif[/img]

I remember what made me turn my back on Christianity. It was people thinking and saying things like that...

Oh, man... I“m out of this discussion. (On the other hand, it was against better judgment I got into it in the first place.) ...


Lasse C



IMO it may benefit discussion in the future, if in response to a previous post consideration is paid to whom you are responding. This may dictate tone and even make remarks made on your part more meaningful. The poster you are responding to is a young man and quite possibly less experienced than you in debating. DesertPilot's response in my opinion is more relevant and constructive and if a correction is to be made it should be done so more toward this manner. In response to your declaration that people who make such statements are what made you "turn your back on Christianity". I would suggest that all walks of life have people who make less than calculated statements, you may have not run into them yet. This is only a suggestion and not meant to single this comment out I am sure it happens a lot and was just a thought. I know this can be a passionate subject.
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axon50
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #229 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 6:50pm
 
Lasse C wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 3:35am:
axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm:
the bible is the oldest record of history ever, it tells us not to lie, it tells us not to be hypocrites, so if they say all that what point would their be to lie? The bible so far has never been proven rong, most other common belief systems have been or are ridiculios any way. why should the bible be rong? the idea of god has always no matter how far back in history you go, all of man's idea's have faded or lost momentum, but the idea of god has always been their. Smiley


Oh, my goodness...
So because the bible tells us not to lie, this means the bible itself by definition has to be true in every little aspect and detail? 
And as a consequence of this most other beliefs are wrong or at least ridiculous?
Do you seriously and honestly mean that? ...

I remember what made me turn my back on Christianity. It was people thinking and saying things like that...
Oh, man... I“m out of this discussion. (On the other hand, it was against better judgment I got into it in the first place.) ...


Lasse C


Are you saying that 6,000 years of records are rong? every single other belief system was made by a man who thought it was a good idea, the bible and god have always been their, they weren't written by your average corruptable person, men are flickers in history that we make a big deal of, you'll find that every other religion or belief system except the bible is a mere idea, people come up with stuff and they anounce it as if it's real....... believe what you want i guess, we'll all find out what was the correct belief system when we're dead, i personally can't wait that long.
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Žęr węron ongemang eallra žisra rinca seofone hund manna ža že węron wineserhande, žara ęlc cuše weorpan stan mid lišere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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axon50
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #230 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 7:15pm
 
DesertPilot wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 12:21pm:
axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm:
the bible is the oldest record of history ever...

Not so.  The Israelites were comparative newcomers on the Middle Eastern scene.  Some Sumerian records date back to the 4th century B.C.E., 3000 years before the bible was written and 2000 years before the Jews, Judea, and Jehovah even existed.  Many Egyptian records are almost as old.  Heck, even the Iliad and the Odyssey are older than the bible, and have at least as good a historical basis.  These all make fascinating reading, particularly if you're interested in the evolution of Western religions, cultures, and legal codes.

No slings in any of them, alas.  But the Greeks and Trojans do throw a lot of rocks at each other in the Iliad ("Uf da!"  BONK!  "Ouch!"), so at least their hearts were in the right place Smiley


the bible was written about four thousand years ago, and covers about 6,000 years ago, the oldest book that was written from experience was probably about four and a half thousand years old (job), although you'll find that many things in the bible are more acurate then other records, such as the flood, their is a version of the flood in most ancient cultures, but all of them are different, but you'll find that (with all the fossiles all around the world), the global flood is most correct. theirs a little town in the middle east that can track it's hostory all the way back to, i think it's james the disciple, as i have said before abraham apears in muslim history, also the bible is a pretty acurate map of the middle east, the the anchors of pauls shipwrecked ship have been found (they would be the only things that would survive on a wooden ship), i watched a documentary by bob cornuke (he's an archeoligist, not how you spell it) and he went looking for the mount arrerat of the bible, and he found it, it was a cool vid to  Smiley, in my opinion, the more truth something tells, the more you can trust that source of information....... a person who tells lies all the time is likely to tell lies, and visa versa.
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Žęr węron ongemang eallra žisra rinca seofone hund manna ža že węron wineserhande, žara ęlc cuše weorpan stan mid lišere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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axon50
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #231 - Nov 2nd, 2007 at 8:30pm
 
some interesting links concerning the bible (www.answersingenesis.org, www.doveministries.com, www.baseinstitute.org, www.biblegateway.com, bible.com, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/jew, www.greatsite.com/timeline-eng, ww.allaboutthejourney.org/hist, www.ldolphin.org/flood.shtml .
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Žęr węron ongemang eallra žisra rinca seofone hund manna ža že węron wineserhande, žara ęlc cuše weorpan stan mid lišere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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Lasse C
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #232 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 6:05am
 
Woody wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 4:03pm:
This may dictate tone and even make remarks made on your part more meaningful. The poster you are responding to is a young man and quite possibly less experienced than you in debating.


First of all, it“s really nice of you to act as support troops for Axon50. As you note, he apparently is young and rather naļve. Well, if being young and naļve is a flaw, most people grow out of it in time. (But I suppose he and I should postpone any discussion between us until he has... Wink)

When I wrote my reply I was just rather upset (and, I have to say, in my eyes rightfully so) by the deep disrespect he showed towards the billions of people whose beliefs he brushed off as "wrong or ridiculous". I certainly did not mean to belittle him or to show contempt, and if offence was taken, I apologize. None intended.

When I wrote that it was thinking and saying things like that which made me turn my back on Christianity I very nearly adressed Axon50 by writing "people like you" - but that would have been wrong and very unfair. The kind of "teachers, preachers and missionaries" who tell young, easily influenced people like Axon50 that kind of one-eyed intolerant rubbish and to accept it without questioning - they made me turn my back in disgust on Christianity.

One of the few really honest and credible Christians I have met was a PhD in theology, had studied on that famous institute in Dallas, and had even learned to read Ancient Greek in order to read the actual oldest preserved texts from the New Testament without anything getting lost in translation. He had also worked as a missionary in India for many years. (Meaning: We are not talking about an ordinary "thirteen-a-dozen" preacher here, OK?) He was very firm in stating:
"If you disrespect or ridicule the faith of others, question your own faith! A faith that is disrespectful to other fellow humans is not truly rooted in The Lord. The Lord had nothing but love and respect for any human being! You may disagree with other people“s faith, but never disrespect it!".


Enough said, I think.

Lasse C

If you think without questioning, you don“t really think at all...
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axon50
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #233 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 8:07pm
 
Lasse C wrote on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 6:05am:
Woody wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 4:03pm:
This may dictate tone and even make remarks made on your part more meaningful. The poster you are responding to is a young man and quite possibly less experienced than you in debating.


First of all, it“s really nice of you to act as support troops for Axon50. As you note, he apparently is young and rather naļve. Well, if being young and naļve is a flaw, most people grow out of it in time. (But I suppose he and I should postpone any discussion between us until he has... Wink)

When I wrote my reply I was just rather upset (and, I have to say, in my eyes rightfully so) by the deep disrespect he showed towards the billions of people whose beliefs he brushed off as "wrong or ridiculous". I certainly did not mean to belittle him or to show contempt, and if offence was taken, I apologize. None intended.

When I wrote that it was thinking and saying things like that which made me turn my back on Christianity I very nearly adressed Axon50 by writing "people like you" - but that would have been wrong and very unfair. The kind of "teachers, preachers and missionaries" who tell young, easily influenced people like Axon50 that kind of one-eyed intolerant rubbish and to accept it without questioning - they made me turn my back in disgust on Christianity.

One of the few really honest and credible Christians I have met was a PhD in theology, had studied on that famous institute in Dallas, and had even learned to read Ancient Greek in order to read the actual oldest preserved texts from the New Testament without anything getting lost in translation. He had also worked as a missionary in India for many years. (Meaning: We are not talking about an ordinary "thirteen-a-dozen" preacher here, OK?) He was very firm in stating:
"If you disrespect or ridicule the faith of others, question your own faith! A faith that is disrespectful to other fellow humans is not truly rooted in The Lord. The Lord had nothing but love and respect for any human being! You may disagree with other people“s faith, but never disrespect it!".


Enough said, I think.

Lasse C

If you think without questioning, you don“t really think at all...


i read that....... oh well like i said, we'll all know what the correct way of thinking is when we die...... nice thought i guess Smiley. (and what makes you say the new testament is greek?) we don't question christianity because everyone else does it for us and we come up with answers, and we don't have any reason to question it, because nobody's ever proven it rong. you can try but all you did was ask if i can prove it right.
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Žęr węron ongemang eallra žisra rinca seofone hund manna ža že węron wineserhande, žara ęlc cuše weorpan stan mid lišere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #234 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 10:43pm
 
axon50 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 8:07pm:
because nobody's ever proven it rong. you can try but all you did was ask if i can prove it right.


Well obviously no christian with a mindset like yours will accept the proposal that christianity is wrong, because if you believe the biblfe word for word it says that you have to believe the bible. Even if definitive evidence was provided on the other side, you would continue to believe what you do. Some call this ignorance, some call it faith, it all depends on what you believe.

However, the Bible has proved hypocritical on many cases. For example, the Bible says that incest is a sin, however the children of Adam and Eve supposedly committed incest, and one could take it to mean all people are related and terefore commit incest. It claims evolution does not exist, but in a world where genes do not exist and change, how do people of different races appear?
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #235 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 11:53pm
 
axon50 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 8:07pm:
...and what makes you say the new testament is greek?

But... but... it IS Greek!  Everybody knows that!  The New Testament in the King James Bible was translated from the original Greek texts.  Don't make fun of my ancestors!  We created most of your religion at the Council of Nicea, back in 325 C.E.!  If it wasn't for us, you might all be worshiping Mithra Smiley

This raises an important question: why are so many car companies named after gods of the West?  There's Mazda, named after the god of the Zoroastrians and Mithraists, there's Chrysler, named after You-Know-Who, there's even Saturn and Mercury.  Why isn't there a company named Buddhiac?  Or Shivarolet?  Or Brahman Motor Works?  Does this prove the superiority of Western religion over its Eastern competitors?  If so, then what god is Toyota named after?  Judging from their market share, this would seem to be the most powerful god of all...

BTW, no offense is intended to anyone in what I recognize is an important and heartfelt debate.  It's just that after watching 1600 years of religious warfare between different believers in the same god, we Greeks find it very difficult to take these things seriously anymore.  We know, from centuries of experience, that too much devotion can only lead to tears.  I respect your sincerity and I promise not to make any more posts to this particular thread.  Best wishes to you all, I thank the Moderators for their forbearance, and I hope to go slinging with you someday!
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #236 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:22am
 
Guys, I really think you should all just agree to disagree. Arguments about religion are particularly pointless because they are almost never able to be resolved by reasoned persuasion as interpretations can vary enormously. For example the Bible does not actually say that "evolution does not exist". What it does say is that animals reproduce, "after their own kind". Now some have taken that to mean that absolutely no variation is possible from generation to generation. However, that is their interpretation, which may or may not be correct, based on just four words, which were probably never intended to be submitted to that degree of scrutiny.

Another problem is that the Bible "rules" can vary and be modified from time to time. The example given is that Adam and Eve's children committed "incest" when marrying each other. But the prohibitions against marrying close family were not introduced until Moses' time. Even Abraham, called the father of the faithful, married his half-sister and was in no way criticized for it. Many other incidental rules detailed in the Law of Moses are no longer applicable as is explained in Acts 15 and other places.

Christians need to get to the core issue of Christ's commandments, which is showing the love of Christ to each other and the rest of the world instead of bickering about incidentals and bringing Christianity itself into disrepute. It is a terrible indictment on Christians if people "turn their back on Christianity" because our actions are so contrary to the will of the One whom we allegedly serve.
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Cranks are little things that make revolutions.&&
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #237 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 1:43am
 
Aussie wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:22am:
Christians need to get to the core issue of Christ's commandments, which is showing the love of Christ to each other and the rest of the world instead of bickering about incidentals and bringing Christianity itself into disrepute. It is a terrible indictment on Christians if people "turn their back on Christianity" because our actions are so contrary to the will of the One whom we allegedly serve.


I agree with you 100% on that one, Aussie.
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #238 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 3:23am
 
Aussie wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:22am:
Guys, I really think you should all just agree to disagree. Arguments about religion are particularly pointless because they are almost never able to be resolved by reasoned persuasion as interpretations can vary enormously. For example the Bible does not actually say that "evolution does not exist". What it does say is that animals reproduce, "after their own kind". Now some have taken that to mean that absolutely no variation is possible from generation to generation. However, that is their interpretation, which may or may not be correct, based on just four words, which were probably never intended to be submitted to that degree of scrutiny.

Another problem is that the Bible "rules" can vary and be modified from time to time. The example given is that Adam and Eve's children committed "incest" when marrying each other. But the prohibitions against marrying close family were not introduced until Moses' time. Even Abraham, called the father of the faithful, married his half-sister and was in no way criticized for it. Many other incidental rules detailed in the Law of Moses are no longer applicable as is explained in Acts 15 and other places.

Christians need to get to the core issue of Christ's commandments, which is showing the love of Christ to each other and the rest of the world instead of bickering about incidentals and bringing Christianity itself into disrepute. It is a terrible indictment on Christians if people "turn their back on Christianity" because our actions are so contrary to the will of the One whom we allegedly serve.


very well, i disagree with everyone who thinks that most of the authors of the bible are lyers (i very recently read something like what you said, in a book.) sorry about the arguement but i'm not one to sit back in a biblical argeument or hostorical argeument that i know something about Smiley. But i would like to point this out before i sighn of this arguement (hopefully), if the bible is mostly a lie, then why are their so many sucessfull christian archeoligists, doctors, scientists, ect ect (those are the only scientific carrers that i can think of with something to do with science that more than one person that I know of and is an extrimely sucessfull christian, or follows the bible as a guide.)
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Žęr węron ongemang eallra žisra rinca seofone hund manna ža že węron wineserhande, žara ęlc cuše weorpan stan mid lišere and ne misweorpan. &&&&16 ferses 20 heafodwearde Demena bec. (Judges 20:16)
 
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Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Reply #239 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 7:11am
 
axon50 wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 3:23am:
very well, i disagree with everyone who thinks that most of the authors of the bible are lyers

Did anyone call them lyers? I don't think so. Just because the stories are not scientifically correct to the last word does not mean that their authors "lied". They just wanted to share their wisdom as far as they knew. But as time goes on, we learn more and more (ok, sometimes we also forget). I don't think most of them even intended to write scientific texts. When you write a rough story, a picture that is meant to simplify a more complex reality, do you lie? I don't think so. But you should not make the mistake to mix the simplification with the reality.

And thanks to AussieSlinger for his words of wisdom!
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