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olaus magnus (Read 8148 times)
Ethan
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #15 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:16am
 
winkleried wrote on Apr 16th, 2008 at 11:49pm:
Ok so what is the Finnish word for staff-Sling and what would the Russian word be???

Marc Adkins

Mangrove wrote on Apr 16th, 2008 at 7:55am:
Again, I can probably get the original latin text if needed from Finnish National Library.

P. 91-92. About Finns and their weapons.

Quote:
Due of the excessive wildness among the Finns or the Finno-Ugric people the Royal regulation has forbited them using weapons like lance, arrows, throwing spears or long daggers against themselfs during peace time. However one should't think they haven't got any defence weapons to protect themselfs against raiding Muscovians who live too close. The first attacks are averted with staff slings. At close combat the Finns defend themselfs with slinging stones stuffed to belts. They (Finns) are so strong and so accurate that they never miss their target. [...]

Some use fist-size rocks which are attached with rope four span (span is c. 15-20 cm) long (when they haven't got any iron or lead balls or iron chain). With these they entangle the arms of cavalrymen or the feet of horses and then tackle them with yanking the rope.




The Finnish is Linko. The Russian is Pratcha.

Those are according to the Wiki
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"Young men go to war. Sometimes because they have to, sometimes because they want to. Always, they feel they are supposed to. This comes from the sad, layered stories of life, which over the centuries have seen courage confused with picking up arms, and cowardice confused with putting them down."&&--Mitch Albom, The Five People you meet in Heaven
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #16 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:52am
 
Ethan,Those are the terms for the hand sling, I was loking to see if anybody knew the words in those two languages for staff-sling.

Marc Adkins

Ethan wrote on Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:16am:
[quote author=winkleried link=1150386644/0#14 date=1208404186]Ok so what is the Finnish word for staff-Sling and what would the Russian word be???

Marc Adkins


The Finnish is Linko. The Russian is Pratcha.

Those are according to the Wiki

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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #17 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 9:52am
 
winkleried wrote on Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:52am:
I was looking to see if anybody knew the words in those two languages for staff-sling.


The Finnish word is sauvalinko. Sauva = staff or a stick, linko = sling.

Martti
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #18 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:58pm
 
Thanks Mangrove

Marc Adkins

Mangrove wrote on Apr 17th, 2008 at 9:52am:
winkleried wrote on Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:52am:
I was looking to see if anybody knew the words in those two languages for staff-sling.


The Finnish word is sauvalinko. Sauva = staff or a stick, linko = sling.

Martti

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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #19 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 1:51pm
 
OK Olaus Magnus wrote Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalabus in 1555. The battle took place in 1521.
Here is the text, taken from a 1555 edition, Chptr VII
 
  But where there were no stones, which was seldom seen, they cast into forts, as forcible as they may, a piece of iron that is glowing red hot, which they put, with a pair of tongs, into the pouch of the sling. For they always have ready vessels like the Roman baths, full of pieces of iron, and putting that into the fire and fitting it into the sling, and casting it against the besieged. They will make such a violent wound and torture, that it can hardly, or never be cured by the help of a physician.

Chptr XI About war with the Mucscovites.  When they have occasion, they repulse and keep off their assaults with slings like spears ( fustibals) when they come to fight near they defend themselves with stones tied to their girdles thatthey throw at them.
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #20 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 3:03pm
 
Whoops, sorry 'bout that.  Embarrassed
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"Young men go to war. Sometimes because they have to, sometimes because they want to. Always, they feel they are supposed to. This comes from the sad, layered stories of life, which over the centuries have seen courage confused with picking up arms, and cowardice confused with putting them down."&&--Mitch Albom, The Five People you meet in Heaven
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #21 - Apr 18th, 2008 at 3:20pm
 
I am reading and rereading the quote above, (span is ca 15-20 cm), ann it annoys me a little. 4 spans would then be at most 80 cm, well under 3 feet, and when you have tangeled a cavalrymans arm or horses feet, it would not be much rope left for yanking.
But if a span was what it sounds like, outstretched arm to outstretched arm, it would be 150-200 cm, 180 cm for me,  then 4 span of rope with a stone in the end would be a more or less sensible weapon.

Maybe this was obvious, but I had to say it.
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #22 - Apr 18th, 2008 at 4:33pm
 
Slingbadger and Mangrove,

many thanks for the quotations and sources. The information by Olaus Magnus is now very clear to me. They used not bolas but stones with a cord by which they entangled enemies and horses is close hand to hand fight. Like slings and staff slings these are simple and cheap but deadly weapons.

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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #23 - Apr 19th, 2008 at 10:29am
 
timann wrote on Apr 18th, 2008 at 3:20pm:
Maybe this was obvious, but I had to say it.


Span, or vaaksa in Finnish, is distance from end of the thump to end of the index finger. My span is about 20 cm. As I don't have the original latin text I can't verify if the text really speaks about span and not, for example, cubit (which is from 45 cm to 60 centimeters).

Maybe the text is trying to say if the cavalryman is still standing Finns could yank him down by pulling the rope next to him?  Tongue

Martti
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #24 - Apr 19th, 2008 at 1:40pm
 
Hi, Mangrove.  Well, maybe it isn`t so obvious.
I just dismissed the shorter `finger span`, because of the word `yanking`.
I figured it would be easyer to handle horses and cavalrymen with some meters of rope instead of centimeters Smiley.

But, one of my late aunts had a suitor of Finnish heritage.  He was short, powefull, and teached us boys a lot of `practical`stuff, like knives, ropes, crossbows....  if he had trapped you by a few decimeters of rope, you would certainly be in trouble, on a horse or not  Cheesy

Or is the description more bola-like?  Several stones with a rather short rope  connecting them...

I`ll just wait here and try to learn more of ancient Finnish warfare Smiley
timann

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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #25 - Apr 21st, 2008 at 3:13pm
 
What I know about ancient finnish warfare is not lot but there are some tactics that are being used still in Finnish army. We have to remember that Finland is a rather big country compared to it's population. So you can use the land to wear out the enemy. Lots of wilderness; woods, labyrinth like lakes and rivers. Finns have always fought against bigger enemy so the tactics are made against large scale enemy offensives.
Let the enemy come and advance to your own territory. While the enemy attacks retreat defensively, make querilla-like attacks and try to hit the enemy supply line. Try to make the easiest way of the offensive harder. Destroy bridges, burn houses etc. Then choose a place where you make your stand. Finns have always defended narrow places; river crosses and isthmuses for example. Narrow places even the odds. Attacks to the flanks are harder to carry through and it's more man-to-man battle than man-against-battalion. When the enemy is stopped and some what beaten make dearing attacks to the enemy flanks. If possible try to encircle them. Make a 'motti'.
Basically attack the enemy in place you know and where the enemys numbers dont matter so much. This seems quite simple but it's really effective.
  This tactic jumps out in Finnish military history from time to time. First I heard it being used against vikings in 900 AC. Last time it was used in Winter War, Continuation War and Lapland War (II World War). Finnish army still trains this tactic.
Sorry if this went too much off topic.
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #26 - Apr 24th, 2008 at 2:31pm
 
Thanks, Nakki. After reading your post it is even more obvious to me that when the finns made chaos among their enemys, somebody could sneek inn and entangle confused cavalrymen and horses with stones attached to the end of long ropes.

I must try this weapon for myself.  My biggest sling stone and a long rope.  I saw something similar on Youtube.  The Chinese Meteor Hammer.  Seemed to be easy... Cheesy
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #27 - Jun 11th, 2008 at 4:19pm
 
I have recently made an improviced meteorhammer, with a good sice sling stone, and a rope with a monkey fist knot.

I tested it, rather carefully. I am rather happy with my old pair of glasses, and my old teeth, thank you Wink

It seems to be very dangerous to the user, even more so if the chinese fancy tecniques are attempted.  But in desperate times, it appear to be a rather effective weapon to knock or pull cavalrymen to the ground, when it can be done in a sneaky way...from the flanks, ambush, in confused battle...
I would not prefer it as a one on one weapon, the danger of knocking myself out, or ensnare myself with the rope, would be to great
timann.
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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #28 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 4:31pm
 
Do you have a picture of it? Sounds interesting!

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Re: olaus magnus
Reply #29 - Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:04pm
 
I got a bad picture of the test weapon.
Over in Other Primitive Weapons there is a thread called; Sling converted to melee weapon.  There is mentioned monkey fist knot and  slungshot.  This is it, it can be used for short range clubbing and flailing, but with 5 meters of rope attached, new possibilities appear...
timann
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