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Assyrian Slings with "Tails" (Read 9246 times)
magnumslinger
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #15 - May 15th, 2006 at 12:24pm
 
SV read my mind, in that I always thought that these pictures of Assyrian "slings" looked more like those "stone throwers" made of bamboo, or toli sticks that we Choctaw Injuns use in ball games to launch a little woven deer skin ball (or, more commonly, a ball of wadded up duct tape) at a little stripe on a pole to score a point!  Or you can just touch the stripe with the ball held inside your sticks.

Anyway, perhaps the definition of "Sling" can be stretched to include stick slings, since the Achaeans used to stiffen the cords on their long-range slings in the belief that it somehow extended their range (A more certain, consistent release due to no flexibility in the strings to prevent more variation a la the beginner's "stiff-arm" knife throwing technique, or the practice of firing off of the wrists rather than the elbows using a pistol from the prone position?).
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #16 - May 15th, 2006 at 2:51pm
 
I'm not sure about that....

If you look at the other assyrian slingers in the gallery, you can see a clearer divide between two cords (the split comes 1/4 way down trom the pouch).

If they are sticks, then why are they holding them where they are? What is the purpose of the curve? Considering that these aren't duck tape balls, but heavy rocks in war, why aren't they using two hands?
I'm not asking these rhetorically or sardonically, but rather, if we're going to say they were actually wooden, we must answer these.

All quite interesting.
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #17 - May 15th, 2006 at 2:56pm
 
the only thing I can add to this is I now use wrist loops and tails on my slings. My target practice has improved. that sling configuration is very easy to adjust for length
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #18 - May 15th, 2006 at 3:07pm
 
Any Sardonian slingsman, were he alive today, could attest to the validity of Cando's inquiries.

And since I'm right here....I'll take a swipe at it.  (Wish Johnny were here at the moment)

It seems fairly obvious that what is being displayed, combined with a modicum of artistic license....is meant to convey a single instant in an action scene....and, just as the archers are readying to release their arrows skyward, the slingers are nearing the moment of their release, in overhand fashion, as well.  Their slings at an angle which ammo, if released tangentially at the moment captured, would put their ammo on a course nearly parallel to that of the arrows.


Although the archer's bowstrings are inscribed with finer detail.....it seems probable that such a level of detail was not deemed as important for the slings, the connotative split near the pocket perhaps deemed sufficiently descriptive by this particular artisan.


TS
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #19 - May 15th, 2006 at 3:13pm
 
This is off topic but did anyone else catch the "Laurel and a Hearty handshake"?
Aside from techstuf?

Maybe they arent "longtailed" slings but normals slings in which the style used by the assyrian fighters was to hold one string further up closer to the pouch?
I know I do that sometimes....if I hold the string further up, it makes my sling stiffer and my release harder.
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #20 - May 15th, 2006 at 4:36pm
 
Bjärn,
I did catch it, but (having thirty years of experience with a man that I call "friend" despite his propensity for mis-using words), I chose to ignore it.

For those who prey on words, being ignored is the only PUN-ishment that stands a chance of working  Roll Eyes

...except that it usually doesn't work ... normally he just tries harder until I HAVE to react.
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #21 - May 15th, 2006 at 4:50pm
 
lobohunter & Bjarn, ....so what's the secret of having a long tail on the release cord and NOT having it mess up the shot??

Couple of us have tried long tails with lousey results. 

Maybe need matching extra length on the retained cord, too, and get that only with wrist loop??

It would be great to use a long sling w wrist loop and just "choke up" on it for short shots.

I've never used a wrist loop.  Maybe should try one soon!
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #22 - May 15th, 2006 at 4:57pm
 
What?
I just offered up another possibility.... Undecided
I think a harder release is to my benefit...I thought anyway...

I think maybe I will try a wrist loop too Grin
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #23 - May 15th, 2006 at 5:17pm
 
Mgreenfield,
I second your request for information on how to use a long tail.  'Way back with my first braided sling, I tried gripping both cords high, to shorten the sling, and the release cord just whipped my hand on the way through.  I would like to know how to keep that from happening.

Try a wrist loop, I think you may like it.  It feels a bit different, as you only have to grip the release cord.  My normal grip is the Knollslinger style: the knot on the release cord is matched by a knot on the retained cord, above the finger loop; I grip both knots.  This helps with stress from the fingerloop.  With a wrist loop, the stress from the retained cord is distributed around your whole wrist.  The knot on the retained cord is not necessary.
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #24 - May 16th, 2006 at 12:02pm
 
Okay, so maybe, as we all originally assumed, the Assyrian who engraved the picture was just a lousy artist, but Toli sticks ALSO show what looks like a "SPLIT" a few  inches up from the loop, because it is made from one piece of white oak, soaked until the end is soft, and then bent around to form a loop, and then tied over back on itself to the shaft  portion of the stick, which makes it suspiciously like the Assyrian picture, and, lest you think you are talking to an inexperienced amateur, or whatever (ACTUALLY, you ARE, but... ;->, heh, heh! IRONY METER DANGEROUSLY HIGH!)

, please note that the overhand cast would be a TERRIBLE choice of techniques for a short, flexible sling as shown for long-range massed use, and a late release here and there would eventually fatally bean several archers over time.  However, using a stick rock thrower this way wouild be the most effective way (in fact, the ONLY way) to launch rocks a maximal distance in such a formation.  In answer to the weight question, rocks or bullets thrown at long ranges are NOT typically heavier than balls used for sport

Baseballs, for example, weigh five ounces.  Toli balls, are a little lighter, but, then, so are 1-3 ounce glandes.


If Lobohunter uses long-tailed, wrap-around slings, that's good enough for me that they work, so, perhaps that IS what the "artist" is depicting.  Personally, I think Johnny is a lot better artist, though!
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« Last Edit: May 26th, 2006 at 8:47pm by magnumslinger »  

Slinging.org people are progressive preservers of pre-historic protective, pantry-packing, and post-paleolithic parabellum practices...and they're also generally REALLY COOL!  Their bootlaces are their arsenal, and the world is their ammo dump!
 
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #25 - May 16th, 2006 at 12:20pm
 
I just Googled 'Toli Stick' and came up blank.  Any other terms to use??

Magnumslinger - Any detailed descriptions, sketches, drawings, photos, (w dimensions) etc would be much appreciated.  Also, descriptions of suitable ammo (w weights) etc.
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #26 - May 16th, 2006 at 12:29pm
 
Dear MGREENFIELD,  It's so good to hear from you again!  I'm sorry that I don't have any pictures offhand, but the sticks are a little longer than the slings shown in the Assyrian photos, and the balls are l little bigger than golf balls, I think.    I could throw rocks with mine, but I am now in Korea, and far away from Toli, and my sticks.  I will try to find something.  You could try "Choctaw stick ball" on dogpile.  How are you, by the way?  Wait...here's a site:

http://members.tripod.com/isaac_44_99/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw

http://members.tripod.com/isaac_44_99/choctaw.htm
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Slinging.org people are progressive preservers of pre-historic protective, pantry-packing, and post-paleolithic parabellum practices...and they're also generally REALLY COOL!  Their bootlaces are their arsenal, and the world is their ammo dump!
 
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #27 - May 16th, 2006 at 12:32pm
 
[quotelobohunter & Bjarn, ....so what's the secret of having a long tail on the release cord and NOT having it mess up the shot?? ] [/quote]
Is there a secret? I just use a overhead base ball stlye pitch with a wide grip. The release string lays out nice and flat at the end of the shot. I snatch it back and reload. I do use a very wide grip. retention string between the pinky and ring finger i alternate between that and between ring finger and middle finger. mostly because I am switching over to the wider grip. I am not sure if that has any thing to do with using a tail.
I use a longer release cord because it is simpler and quicker to gather for another shot. Also it is mor comfortable to hold on to a whole cord than using a knot. I the longer cord gives me more confidence.
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #28 - May 16th, 2006 at 1:04pm
 
magnum slinger,

Quote:
lest you think you are talking to an inexperienced amateur, or whatever, please note that the overhand cast would be a TERRIBLE choice of techniques for a short, flexible sling as shown for long-range massed use

Why is overhand a poor choice of cast for a short sling? What other type of cast could you use?  An overhand technique (whether it be classic, apache, figure 8 or what not) means that slingers can be packed closer abreast. It also provides a good launch point and trajectory angle for clearing soldiers in front.
Slings were used in formation by the Romans, so why not Assyrians? It could be due to artistic liberty that the slings appear short (it wouldn't look right to have long slings so far above the rest of the action). Similarly, the soldiers are being shown closer together than is likely; having big gaps between them would have been a waste of space, and would make the art appear 'empty'.

Also, how do we know that it is long range use as you suggest?(angle of the bows perhaps... again possibly artistic license).   And, if it were long range, the sling would be at least as effective than a stick in terms of power and accuracy..... How on earth is the toli stick better?

The "hitting archers" point isn't really valid, as the slingers would have been trained professionals. Accidents could happen just as easily with a toli stick anyway.


Also, everything in the image is drawn in profile. The bodies are turned sideways (we know this since the heads are facing forward, and because we can use archers as a solid reference).  So, let's say for a moment that they are toli sticks. In order for both sides of the 'pouch' to be visible as well as the rock, the stick would have to be facing out towards the audience. This would make the cast perpendicular to that of the archers, and to the direction of the slingers heads... not very effective.  Are there any artifacts of actual Assyrian slings (or toli sticks)? That sure would clear up a lot.

Hey, look, the second archer dosn't have a hand on the bow.... magic Tongue
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Re: Assyrian Slings with "Tails"
Reply #29 - May 16th, 2006 at 2:39pm
 
I dont know, I use overhand technique more comfortably and I do leave a "tail" at the end, only because I tend to have a habit of moving the cord down my wrist to tighten in.

Maybe it is a poor choice for master slingers but for a newbie who lacks a refined hand and sense of slinging style, it works pretty good for me!
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