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Velocity and Penetration (Read 31555 times)
BrianGrubbs
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #60 - May 15th, 2008 at 8:13am
 
I have been trying to find some video of this on the internet but I unfortunately can not.  There was a television special I saw as a child called "Ancient Secrets of the Bible."  I found it on Amazon.com but I digress...  They did a section on David and Goliath with the usuall "there's no way it could ever happen," and "heck yes it could, check out what I can do with a sling!" back and forth.  The guy they had on to show how awesome the sling really is, I wish I could remember his name, proceeded to break a series of pine boards (1/2 in. thick I think) from about 40 feet away.  The amazing thing was, the boards were only eight inches square, and he had someone holding them up in the air and he shot the boards out of their hand.  He even shot one that was thrown up in the air.  Needless to say, as a six year old kid, I was very impressed.  Anyone know about this and perhaps know this man's name?
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When in doubt, shoot for the head (worked for David anyway...)
 
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #61 - May 16th, 2008 at 4:24pm
 
An archeologist who had done research in Syria once wrote that the boys in the village near the site where he worked shot down the flying birds from the air with a sling. The problem about modern experiments is the fact that only few people train their abilities in using devices with that serious aproach which once had been necessary for survival. And if they have no success the audience blames the sling for the result.  Embarrassed

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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #62 - May 16th, 2008 at 8:11pm
 
Stacy Groscup.  Good man.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_i92VekJnY



TS


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Curious Aardvark
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #63 - May 17th, 2008 at 6:44am
 
nice video - shame about the pathetic target stacy chose to destroy. You'd have thought he'd have gone for something a bit tougher.
:-)
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Do All things with Honour and Generosity: Regret Nothing, Envy None, Apologise Seldom and Bow your head to No One  - works for me Smiley
 
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #64 - May 17th, 2008 at 2:30pm
 

Yeah, white pine don't hold a candle to marble and granite.  Neither lead balls to sulphur ones, I suppose.


http://www.wyattmuseum.com/cities-of-the-plain.htm


The slinger makes all the difference, I'm told.


God bless,


TS
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #65 - May 17th, 2008 at 7:55pm
 
Interesting - actually sulphur is a very interesting element.
In that it is strongly allotropic. Ie: sulphur can hold several different crystalling and physical forms at the same temperature.
It can form a plastic like solid, a powder and a solid crystalline form all at room temperature.

So finding unusual looking sulphur deposits is not in itself unusual. It just means that those particular sulphur deposits show signs of allotrophic activity.
It's possible that sulphur was formed into balls in it's semi-solid form and ignited and then slung as a missile.
Doesn't have to be divine intervention could be simply manmade intervention.

But the evidence for the four cities is pretty good.
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Aussie
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #66 - May 18th, 2008 at 12:55am
 
[quote author=curious_aardvark link=1146852045/60#63 date=1211021048]nice video - shame about the pathetic target stacy chose to destroy. You'd have thought he'd have gone for something a bit tougher.
:-)
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more about the target choice; you can snap a small piece of pine along the grain with light finger pressure. It would take a lot more than that to kill any man let alone a powerful warrior. As "proof" that it could be done, TechStuf's own video of him putting a stone through a plywood Goliath is much more convincing.

Generally I found the "Mythbusters style" video very weak and inaccurate in many ways. Firstly David was no weakling incapable of picking up Saul's sword; he used Goliath's own large sword to decapitate him after killing him with his sling. Nor was Saul's armour rejected because it was too heavy but because it was restrictive. He also did not tell Saul he intended to use his sling, the first mention of anything related to slinging is when he selects his sling stones from the stream. The Sunday School graphic of little David with his tiny sling killing the huge nasty Goliath with a shield in his hand, may be cute but it is historically wrong and only serves to lend credibility to the next speaker's assertion that it would not be possible to kill a fearsome warrior in armour and with a shield with a leather sling and a "pebble". This assertion may have been correct but David was not using a small pebble and Goliath was not using his shield. He was taken by surprise before he had a chance to cover up.

The videos of an allegedly Palestinian boy slinging is again nice but the size and speed of the stone he throws would barely break an Isreali Police station window much less kill anyone. The Spanish civil war grenade throwers scene is so obviously fake it's laughable. Two guys on a roof can barely get the grenades over the roof ridge and on the other side we are supposed to believe is utter devastation and explosions that would do credit to long range artillery.

Next we see the alleged expert who also makes statements which are questionable. He claims that his sling is a replica of the one used by David. He has no justification for making that claim. There are no slings intact from David's time and no details of it are recorded in the Bible at all. If we are to assume that sling technology in the Middle East has remained essentially the same for thousands of years then David's sling is more likely to have looked like the braided styles used by the Balearics, much stronger and longer and suitable for use with a larger stone, capable of smashing a man's skull.

Not that I need convincing, but if I were a skeptic who needed convincing that it could be done I would need two questions answered; is it possible to sling hard enough and accurately enough to do the job? For that I would like to see a single video clip of a competent slinger throwing a sizeable stone with a reasonable velocity at a small target and hitting it several times in a row, just so I know it's not a fluke and the video is not a montage. Sorry but we Australians are a cynical bunch.
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #67 - May 18th, 2008 at 2:15am
 

Quote:
Not that I need convincing, but if I were a skeptic who needed convincing that it could be done I would need two questions answered; is it possible to sling hard enough and accurately enough to do the job?



Well said.


I've yet to meet a skeptic worth his (pillar of) salt who could be convinced of much of anything of true value.  Especially facts.


Mr. Groscup's various demonstrations have spawned a legend or two in their own right.  His sling demos (for a man of his advanced years, He has been dead a while now) are excellent examples in support of the accuracy side of the slinging equation, which many a skeptic would be otherwise hard pressed to admit. 



TS

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Ethan
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #68 - May 18th, 2008 at 9:50pm
 
Aussie, as far as David refusing Saul's sword, it certainly wasn't because he was weak, which you pointed out. However, for a boy (speaking relatively) who has spent his life as a shepherd, wielding - at most - a sling and staff, a sword would have been a pretty foolish choice to carry into the fight.
Goliath, we must assume, was a well-trained, experienced warrior. He was also a brute, and well-outfitted. David wielding a sword would have been pathetic. David would have been pulp.

Here we go again though. If Goliath was so smart and battle-savvy, how was he dumb enough to not realize he was about to get creamed with a rock? I mean, the sling wasn't exactly a novelty in those days.
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #69 - May 19th, 2008 at 1:12am
 
Ethan wrote on May 18th, 2008 at 9:50pm:
Aussie, as far as David refusing Saul's sword, it certainly wasn't because he was weak, which you pointed out. However, for a boy (speaking relatively) who has spent his life as a shepherd, wielding - at most - a sling and staff, a sword would have been a pretty foolish choice to carry into the fight.
Goliath, we must assume, was a well-trained, experienced warrior. He was also a brute, and well-outfitted. David wielding a sword would have been pathetic. David would have been pulp.

Here we go again though. If Goliath was so smart and battle-savvy, how was he dumb enough to not realize he was about to get creamed with a rock? I mean, the sling wasn't exactly a novelty in those days.


Agree with you fully re the sword. My comment was based on the video which shows a wimpy David who has to apologize to Saul for dropping his sword. I know that many people think the Biblical account is just a story. Be that as it may, but it is the only record that we have and it records no such conversation between David and Saul. David tells Saul about how he killed a lion and a bear which threatened his sheep. David's whole demeanour brims with confidence and outrage against Goliath. The sling does not get a mention until David selects his sling stones from the stream.

The account in 1Sam. 17 also clearly states that Goliath's shield bearer was going before him, ie. Goliath was not carrying his shield. Additionally David drew Goliath's sword out of its scabbard, ie. he did not have it in his hand at the time he was hit by David's stone. Yet what does the graphic show? A little David wearing what for all the world looks like a diaper nailing Goliath who is holding both shield and sword. Sure it's only a picture but those images stick in your mind and they are clearly wrong. This is supposed to be a scholarly objective look at the possibility of David' defeating Goliath yet it makes basic errors like that.

Now TechStuf vouches for Mr. Groscup's ability but otherwise being my cynical suspcious self I see him whizzing his little sling around then the camera shows a breaking board. I must accept on goodwill that the two events are actually related. Then I am told that I have just seen a demonstration of how effective the sling can be. Sorry a fly colliding with Goliath's head would cause as much damage even assuming it was genuine.

If this video is intended to convince me as a skeptic that the Biblical account could be, not necessarily is, true then I need much less hoopla, pseudo experts etc. and lots more objective evidence that a slingstone will have the required destructive power and can be thrown with the required accuracy to do the job. And I am not a skeptic! So how will the real skeptics be convinced? Personally I think this video is counter productive.

As far as why Goliath allowed himself to be so easily beaten, I am as amazed as anyone. However all speculation is just that, speculation. Sure the sling was common in shepherding societies but then Goliath was no shepherd. Perhaps he was not aware how accurately a stone could be slung. It may be that David concealed the sling until the last moment. The account says he had it in his hand but coiled up it may have been not readily visible. It may be that in single combat you were not supposed to use a sling and David pulled what amounts to a dirty trick. I am willing to accept any explanation on the understanding that everything is only a maybe.

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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #70 - May 19th, 2008 at 3:23am
 

Quote:
Now TechStuf vouches for Mr. Groscup's ability



Indubitably.


Quote:
If this video is intended to convince me as a skeptic...



An IF big enough to hang one's 10 gallon Akubra on, to be sure. 
Obviously, the clip is not intended to convince skeptics nearly as much as to pique the curiousity of optimists. 


Quote:
So how will the real skeptics be convinced? Personally I think this video is counter productive.



Quote:
...being my cynical suspcious self I see him whizzing his little sling around then the camera shows a breaking board. I must accept on goodwill that the two events are actually related. Then I am told that I have just seen a demonstration of how effective the sling can be. Sorry a fly colliding with Goliath's head would cause as much damage even assuming it was genuine.



Disadvantageously produced is certainly not counterproductive.  I vote Aussieslinger put his skills where his mouth is and show us a video of him hitting any moving arial target AT ALL  at any distance as well, much less with the force of a fly landing on Goliath's nose.  Give an old man a break, at least he can hit what he aims at, even if his power and sphere of influence has been reduced with age.  In my opinion the potential of the sling is reasonably well represented, especially given the relative rarity of more dedicated examples at the time of the production.


Quote:
As far as why Goliath allowed himself to be so easily beaten, I am as amazed as anyone.



Yeah, it's real easy to achieve both fantastic accuracy under pressure and devastating power both at the same time, with a sling.   Roll Eyes


Then too, perhaps Goliath, like so many in every era, was simply a skeptic right up until he wasn't?  A poor time for anyone to wish they had been more of an optimist in life, eh?


I guess, when you get right down to it, an optimist affords himself a wealth of educational opportunities that are otherwise ill afforded by the skeptics.  I know I learned a thing or two even in that short, counter productive video clip.



Nothing but love for ya though, AS,  I understand that you only played devil's advocate (in lieu of a more suitable candidate for the job) merely to incite a response.



Whatever worked, I guess.  Cool



TS
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #71 - May 19th, 2008 at 5:25am
 
Now TS old mate, don't shoot the messenger. I at no time claimed or implied that hitting a moving (or any) target was easy, or that I could do it. What I said was that Goliath allowed himself to be defeated easily. (Now I also know you Americans have just about abandoned adverbs in favour of adjectives but "easily" is not the same as "easy".)

What is clear is that Goliath was not prepared for what was coming. He was not crouched behind his shield or apparently taking any measures to defend himself against what was coming. It appears the whole encounter lasted only a few minutes. In that sense Goliath was defeated easily. To face such a killer was undoubtedly an extraordinary act of courage and the slinging skill, especially the accuracy was also extraordinary. However I am also sure that many of the slingers on this forum, you definitely included as I have said before, would be capable of slinging powerfully enough. The thing that I have yet to see is a slinger who can consistently put in a first shot that would be accurate enough. Your Dr Groscup may be this man but the shots shown on the video, all hyperboles aside, would not have been nearly powerful to crack Goliath's skull.

As far as me facing Goliath, if he would kindly consent to standing absolutely still and not waving his arms about or doing anything else to distract or frighten me, I am fairly sure I could also eventually knock him down. But I do not claim to be a particularly good or strong slinger. Chronologically I am definitely on the decline, nor was I ever particularly sports minded.

When you say I am acting as devil's advocate you are right. To make matters worse I am an Australian devil's advocate. I believe the Bible to be true but generally Australia is a particularly secular society, religion is often viewed as suspect and a conjob. That's why I cosidered the video counter productive because I know that in Australia it would attract derision as religious crap, for the reasons I listed before, rather than conviction that the story of David's defeating Goliath is perfectly plausible. If I was to show my workmates any video to demonstrate how potentially destructive a sling can be it would be your own.
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #72 - May 19th, 2008 at 7:57am
 
jolly good glad we got the sorted. And for the record. I did not believe that the board in the air was broken by a bloke with a sling either lol.

Show me the video where both man and sling and board are all on the screen at the same time and I'll believe you. But those tv-magic cutaways make me suspicious every time :-)
If you watch that video clip, at no point do you see the man and the target in the same frame at the same time.
Being cynical I'd have said he used a slingshot to break the boards - which would account for the choice of boards. He is known as an expert with a slingshot. A much easier weapon to hit airborne targets with.

And the david and goliath discussion - well that's just repitition of the david and goliath threads :-)
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #73 - May 19th, 2008 at 9:17am
 
I doubt that anybody half sensible would shoot at a board held in the hand unless the person holding it is well armoured. Even with relatively high precision weapons you would never do that. So either they were very foolish or they were faking. In both cases they might give other people the wrong impression that a sling is a safe and precise weapon, which can cause deathly accidents.

They should have stayed with the shot in the fruit, that was much more realistic.
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Re: Velocity and Penetration
Reply #74 - May 19th, 2008 at 5:40pm
 
Upon rewatching that video, I was reminded of how inacurately they portrayed David and Goliath in their dramatization.  It seems that instead of actually reading the biblical account, they went of of what somebody thought they remembered from when they were a kid.  The other parts of the series (the part about the crossing of the red sea, Sampson, etc.) were similarly inaccurate.  Whatever you might say about the sling demonstration, it was responsible for my initial intrest in slinging... so not all bad!
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« Last Edit: May 20th, 2008 at 5:09pm by BrianGrubbs »  

When in doubt, shoot for the head (worked for David anyway...)
 
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