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Point-first flight (Read 16814 times)
David_T
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #15 - Mar 9th, 2004 at 1:49am
 
Yes Siry,

They certainly do fly point first. No doubt at all in my mind either!! Some better than others, but they stablize and spin nice if they have enough air time.
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Dan_Bollinger
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #16 - Mar 9th, 2004 at 9:06am
 
I am returning to this thread, too, with renewed interest.

I am sure oscillations diminish during flight, but at the expense of velocity since the energy for dampening the oscillations comes from the kinetic energy of the glandes. It would be best to throw without oscillations.

I am still looking for a high-speed digital camera. I want to understand what I am calling the transitional period between the glandes in the pouch and glandes in flight.

I tried using my digital camera, but its slow shutter and frame speed I got blurred still pictures instead of sharp, motion pictures. Still it was enough to whet my appetite.

I think Hondero is right, the pouch may have to be shaped to fit the glandes to keep orientation correct during the toss and to induce the maximum spin on the glandes.  For starters, use a high-friction material.
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WalkingBird
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #17 - Mar 9th, 2004 at 8:28pm
 
Dan

   I have to agree with you on the fact that the "weather-vaining" of a glande must produce more drag on the projectile. At least until the gland is oriented long axis in line with the line of flight.
   So... glandes launched from a sling will experience more drag at first and less later in flight. The only question, I think left to settle, is weather the effect over the whole flight is more or less drag, and hence more or less distance. In other words, is the average overall drag increased or decressed. And that answer is beyond me, and what little testing I've done so far.
   Still I think there are some things we can conclude. First, that glandes were used extensively by the roman army necessitates some advantage to the slinger, if not they would not be used. Secondly if glandes of the same weight did not fly at least as far as a sphear then no matter how effective they are they would not be used, as the advantage on the battle field would shift to whoever could throw the furthest. So the glande must be capable of at least the same range as the sphear. Two things are evident, one the glande is more stable in the pouch for loading and slinging, two that the glande has more penitrating power for a given weight if thrown from sufficent distance. This still does not answer our question, but in my mind at least, I'm satisfied that on the battle field they are much more effective as ammo.
    My hat is off to who ever can settle the matter of overall efficency of the glande verses the sphear for flight distance.
   

   WalkingBird

   Who is having fun on the forum!
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Chris
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #18 - Mar 10th, 2004 at 12:33am
 
I think we'll produce some formal research on this topic, as it is a good one and as far as I know, has never been explored.  I'm trying to get in touch with some aeronautical engineers and physicist. 

Chris
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Re: what followswhat followsPoint-first flight
Reply #19 - Mar 10th, 2004 at 11:03am
 
Chris

    Good luck with the research. I'm very interested in the outcome, as I'm sure many are.

WalkingBird

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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #20 - May 17th, 2006 at 5:03pm
 
Reading this thread I remembered an article of Dietwulf Baatz about the ballistics of slinging of lead glandes.

Baatz (Schleudergeschosse aus Blei, page 59 pp., Saalburg Jahrbuch 1990) made some remarks on the physical characteristics of lead glandes. The sphere is an aerodynamcal disadvantageous form. For this reason modern bullets are long and pointed. For his ballistic formulas he defined a drag factor Cw which shows the air resistance of a shape of the projectile. The more disadvantageous a shape is the higher is its Cw. For the sphere Baatz estimated a drag factor of 0,48. Other shapes like unround, biconicle and looping projectiles or such with a rough surface are estimated with aunified Cw = 0,4. It is the interruption of air current at the edges of these projectiles that diminishes the drag of the air. Baatz believes that the ancient slingers got the optimal shape by practise. I think these shapes where already an old tradition when lead glandes became popular. Korfmann gave examples of shapes of neolithic clay projectiles in his doctor thesis. They are egg shaped or biconic.

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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #21 - May 18th, 2006 at 7:00am
 
Baatz knows probably not more about aerodynamics than I do and I do know very little about that. In fact I learned most about that here on slinging.org. So I rather recommend search here on slinging.org for air drag. The Achenbach curves you can find here are IMO very interesting. The form of these cd/speed curves are probably similar with glandes, i.e. there is probably a critical speed where the cd drops down, but the actual critical speed and cd values are different. Scientific research of knowledgable people would be interesting, but because of the asymmetry the rotation is even more important than on spheres[1] which makes it probably much more difficult to analyze.

Zwiebeltuete

[1] To calculate the range of golf balls you have to include the lift caused by rotation of the ball. It is pretty important there.
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #22 - May 18th, 2006 at 3:28pm
 
Logically, one may deduce that in our day at least, slinging hand made obloid glandes would only be of true benefit for long distance slinging.  That being the case, it is truly most suited only for occasional extreme distance practice or competition, and given that the record distance is still held by natural ammo....perhaps naturally obloid ammo is the true bargain.  Certainly, it was by observation of the increased distance gained by obloid stones, that lead glandes got their shape.

It is always fun to watch an enlongated stone come out of the pocket attempting a topspin dive to the dirt until it's spin axis precesses into a fixed position parallel with it's trajectory....at which point it squirts ahead with noticeably increased velocity.

Spheroid ammo is truly advantageous to the more challenging slinging exercise, accuracy sport.


TS
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #23 - May 18th, 2006 at 4:01pm
 
If the shape does matter what's about the direction in which the slinger puts the glans in the pouch. One might put it in the pouch with its length following the direction of the cords or crosswise. Is there a significant difference?

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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #24 - May 18th, 2006 at 4:06pm
 
it depends on your slinging style.  there can be a signifigant differeance, if you sling to put spin on the ammo in a particular direction, but if you just whip it out it probably won't make much of a differnce
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #25 - May 19th, 2006 at 6:12pm
 
I pesonaly think wide grip point first spiral is the only way to go. I am of the thought that it improves your aim.
But just my humble thought
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #26 - Jun 4th, 2006 at 3:21pm
 
thanks, but I'm not sure whether I understand in detail the meaning of "wide grip point first spiral". Does  wide grip mean that I put the loop on  ring finger instead of indexfinger? And what's point first spiral exactly?

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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #27 - Jun 4th, 2006 at 6:57pm
 
Retention on little finger, release pinched 'tween thumb and index. Cords are a palm width appart ... throw with your palm facing target when release is made. 8)  Oh the glandes need to be oriented in the pouch pointed across the narrow dimension Smiley
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #28 - Jun 4th, 2006 at 8:41pm
 
It is when the glande spins American Football, or rifled bullet style as opposed to just wobbling or flipping through the air.
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Re: Point-first flight
Reply #29 - Jun 7th, 2006 at 3:37pm
 
Many thanks for your quick answer. Just one question, for I'm not sure whether I understand right (I'm not a native speaker).  Does "pointed across the narrow dimension" mean that the longitudinal axis of the glans is parallel to the longitudinal axis of the sling?

What's about the slinging style? I normally use the helicopter or over head style. Does that make a difference?

funda
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