Slinging.org Forum - Authentic classical era javelin dimensions?

Red_Harvest

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Authentic classical era javelin dimensions?
Apr 9^th, 2006 at 1:36pm

Do any of you happen to know where I can find dimensions on some "typical" classical era javelins. I'm looking for something like what Greek peltasts, Gauls, or eastern armies might have used. (I am not looking for information on pila.)

I suspect the typical javelins would most likely be socketed (based on images I've seen) but I do not know what the internal dimensions would be nor the diameter of the shaft itself. Material would probably be iron, but might also be bronze.

I know that some javelins actually were dual use "throwing spears" with butt spikes as well, but for right now I'm interested in a basic javelin.

Does anyone know where socketed javelin head reproductions can be obtained?

Thanks in advance.

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Pikoro

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Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions?
Reply #1 - Apr 9^th, 2006 at 2:07pm

Welcome to our humble little forum Red_Harvest! I'm sure you'll find a lot of useful information here.

I too am looking for information on the way to make a proper ancient javelin. I haven't had much luck finding anything on it so perhaps someone here can help us.

I want to make a javelin with amentum. The amentum is a cord that the Greeks and other ancient cultures would attach to their javelins to make them go farther. They would use it kind of like an atlatl.

I'm also thinking about making a soliferrum if anyone has any idea how to make one. The soliferrum, which was also used with an amentum, was an all iron javelin that the spanish used around the time they were fighting against the Romans. Apperantly they were pretty effective at punching through shield and armor.

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Arkanii Descens Offline Get back, I can sling! Posts: 230 Gender:	Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions? Reply #2 - Apr 9^th, 2006 at 2:30pm Hey Red_Harvest. Have you by any chance played Rome:Total War?
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Red_Harvest Tiro Offline Where's the "ANY" key? Posts: 10 Gender:	Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions? Reply #3 - Apr 9^th, 2006 at 10:20pm Quote: Hey Red_Harvest. Have you by any chance played Rome:Total War? That would be me.
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Red_Harvest

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Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions?
Reply #4 - Apr 9^th, 2006 at 10:47pm

Quote:

Welcome to our humble little forum Red_Harvest! I'm sure you'll find a lot of useful information here.

I too am looking for information on the way to make a proper ancient javelin. I haven't had much luck finding anything on it so perhaps someone here can help us.

I want to make a javelin with amentum. The amentum is a cord that the Greeks and other ancient cultures would attach to their javelins to make them go farther. They would use it kind of like an atlatl.

I'm also thinking about making a soliferrum if anyone has any idea how to make one. The soliferrum, which was also used with an amentum, was an all iron javelin that the spanish used around the time they were fighting against the Romans. Apperantly they were pretty effective at punching through shield and armor.

Thanks. Yes, I've been thinking about the strap as well, mainly out of curiosity to see how much additional range it gives.

I don't have any dimensions on the soliferrum from literature, but I can roughly estimate them from Connolly's Greece and Rome at War pg. 150. It shows a "saunion" at 1/8th scale and is 8" long in the text (5-1/3 ft). The shaft is extremely thin, maybe 1/4" as best I can measure and slightly thicker through the center than in the front third and with a slight taper to the rear as well. The barbed head is only about 1.6 inches long or so and about 1/3 inch wide. This saunion was recovered from Almedenilla.

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Pikoro

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Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions?
Reply #5 - Apr 10^th, 2006 at 10:26am

Thanks for that info. I think It'll be very usefull.

Here's an example from someone that tried an amentum:
http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=1;action=display;num=11420191...

I have two or three pdf articles on the javelin and amentum. I'll try to figure out a way to post them if you're intreseted in seeing them.

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slingbadger Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Don't Badger a Badger Posts: 3220 Akron NY Gender:	Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions? Reply #6 - Apr 10^th, 2006 at 6:06pm There is a book out by John warry called Weapons and Armor in the Ancient world. It does a good job of explaining the weapons of all time periods, including the javelin, and the amentum. It also goes into the battle strategies.
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Red_Harvest

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Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions?
Reply #7 - Apr 10^th, 2006 at 8:04pm

Quote:

Thanks for that info. I think It'll be very usefull.

Here's an example from someone that tried an amentum:
http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=1;action=display;num=11420191...

I have two or three pdf articles on the javelin and amentum. I'll try to figure out a way to post them if you're intreseted in seeing them.

I would be interested in hearing what articles you have found. I'm going to try to get my hands on some by Gardiner and Harris through a library request. My understanding is that they don't discuss dimensions though.

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Red_Harvest

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Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions?
Reply #8 - Apr 10^th, 2006 at 8:13pm

Quote:

There is a book out by John warry called Weapons and Armor in the Ancient world. It does a good job of explaining the weapons of all time periods, including the javelin, and the amentum. It also goes into the battle strategies.

Are you thinking of Warry's Warfare in the Classical World? I have that and it does a good job of illustrating the Thracian peltast and leather strap. However I'm really looking for detail on the javelin's dimensions or a way to get my hands on a reasonable reproduction. Right now, I don't even have a shaft diameter to work from. I've got far better info on hoplite spears and phalangite sarissa thanks to Markle.

By the way, anyone interested in Warry's book should make certain to get the illustrated version. The one without illustrations is really lacking by comparison (it wouldn't include the Thracian diagrams/sidebar and image for example.) The illustrations tie the work together, and include more detailed sidebars. I started with the non-illustrated version by mistake and I was not at all impressed. Then I obtained the illustrated version and was shocked by the difference it made. (As a result I immediately gave the other version away.)

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Pikoro

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Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions?
Reply #9 - Apr 11^th, 2006 at 7:31am

I'll have to look for that book.

I haven't been able to figure out a way to post the articles I told you about because they're in PDF format. So I'll give you the names and maybe you can find them through your library.

"Spear-Throwing with a Cord." (1934) By E. Cecil Curwen from the journal Man, Vol. 34

"Throwing the Javelin." (1907) By E. Norman Gardiner from The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 27

"Greek Javelin Throwing." (1963) By H.A. Harris from the journal Greece and Rome, Vol. 10

I found these all at my college's library through their journal database. The the specific database that I found all three articles in is the Arts and Sciences Collections I, II & III (JSTOR).

Hope this helps.

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slingbadger Interfector Viris Spurii Offline Don't Badger a Badger Posts: 3220 Akron NY Gender:	Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions? Reply #10 - Apr 11^th, 2006 at 5:45pm Yeah, it's Warfare in the Ancient World. Once in a while I have a brainfart. Sorry.
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Red_Harvest Tiro Offline Where's the "ANY" key? Posts: 10 Gender:	Re: Authentic classical era javelin dimensions? Reply #11 - Apr 11^th, 2006 at 6:47pm Yes, those are the articles that I was going to get (except for the Curwen one that I had not heard of before.) I don't have any direct access to JSTOR so I'll make a request through the library next time I'm there. Thanks.
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