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Bernini's David (Read 2740 times)
Matthias
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Bernini's David
Jan 28th, 2006 at 12:36am
 
In
another thread
we've talked a bit about how the posing of Michaelangelo's David might be an effective starting position for an underhand, quick release throw.

The statue is posed with the sling draped over the shoulder. This doesn't look much like an action shot, but Lobohunters setup for an underhandthrow works pretty cleanly starting from this somewhat "relaxed" looking pose.

Another famous (and much more dynamic) work depicting David moments before the casting of the most famous glans was executed by Bernini - check our media gallery.

You can use Google images to turn up lots of different angles that more effectively show the positioning, but the view that is most often seen is shown below:

...

I thought we'd talked about this one before, but I can't find anything in the search. It looks to me like he is setting up for an overhand throw, something that is also suggested by Bernini's other slingers.

(actually, it always looks to me that he is recovering from an underhand throw, but this is personal bias based on the way I learned to sling, and clearly refuted by the rock still in the pouch! Smiley)

David is holding the projectile palm down in his left hand, while pivoted to place his right foot forward. His right hand is drawn back low and behind his hip. The tension in the statue suggests the moment just before he releases the stone.

It seems like the most likely throw is a simple drop down on the right side while stepping forward with the left foot and whipping the sling over the top in a no-windup overhand. There is always room for an extra fig-8 type turn in there but the starting pose looks a little too powerful to me.

What do you guys think? It is clearly a very effective posing for a sculpture, but is it based on "real life"? Let's hear some experiences with this windup...

Matthias
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CanDo
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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #1 - Jan 28th, 2006 at 12:50am
 
Could it be that the sculptor didn't know how to sling, so just decided that this pose looked best? (I know this isn't supposed to come in until everyone starts getting really tense defending their explanation, but why not?Tongue) Seriously though, is that a consideration?
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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #2 - Jan 28th, 2006 at 11:34am
 
It looks like it would work for an overhand shot. You could start like that, then very quickly turn your waist and whip the sling like a baseball throw. I'm gonna go try it.
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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #3 - Jan 28th, 2006 at 3:13pm
 
Yeah, looks to me like a slightly dramatized windup for an overhand.
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Dale
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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #4 - Jan 30th, 2006 at 1:23pm
 
OK, everybody, I found a way to sling the way Bernini shows David slinging!

I've seen pictures of that statue before, and it always looked like a dramatic (but awkward) pose.  But last night I decided to figure this pose out, and I discovered that Bernini's David is not STANDING that way ... Bernini carved David in the middle of the windup, just before he let go of the rock!

Here is how it works, for a right-hander (left-handers swap all "rights" and "lefts").  Stand facing your target, with your feet apart (shoulder-width or a bit wider).  For me, it worked best if my left foot was pointing toward the target and my right foot was turned 45 degrees to the right, or may be a bit farther.  Hold your sling with both palms down --- if you start in the Hondero "en garde" position (the pose from the Greek vase) and drop your arms to hip level, you'll have your hands right.  Or just copy how Bernini shows David's hands.

Now, twist your torso to the right, keeping your eye on the target, shifting your weight onto your right foot, so that your left heel rises off the ground.  As you reach the end of the twist, drop the rock and draw your right arm back, then whip it up and to the left as you untwist your torso and bring your weight back to both feet and then more onto your left foot (how I shift my weight and move my feet, is very much like how I move when I swing a golf club).  Your sling will swing in almost a side-arm arc, because you were still twisting to the right as you started the swing and because you were untwisting to the left so that your torso and arm together put power into the sling.

I still have to think about this as I do it, so it is slow and I have no power yet --- but the golf ball I was casting at a pile of dirt still hit pretty hard a couple of times.  When I get this style trained into my reflexes, I think I'm really going to like it.

Addendum, 2006 November 14 -- I just found this topic again (while looking for something else) and read Matthias's opening comments.  Matthias described the style depicted in the statue, essentially the same as my description but using far fewer words.

The Bernini style is not one I use often, but I do still practice it and it works well.
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« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2006 at 3:50pm by Dale »  

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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #5 - Feb 3rd, 2006 at 5:42pm
 
Follow-up to my last post, after practicing this style a few days.

CanDo,
Bernini may or may not have known how to sling, but his model for that statue definitely did know.  His statue shows the slinger in the middle of the wind-up.

Matthias,
I already described how I thought the slinger got to the position shown, and what he did next.  But I did not consider taking a step as I slung; I like to keep both feet planted, because of a coordination disability: I cannot walk and chew gum at the same time ( I either swallow the gum or I fall down  Embarrassed )

But yesterday I re-read your description of what the slinger is doing, and I decided to try it.  If I pretend to pitch a baseball a few times, and then sling with the Bernini style, it works!  And I get more power than I do just standing.

So the statue shows the slinger when he has shifted his weight to his right foot, is ready to drop the rock and swing it, and is lifting his left foot to step toward the target.

This is good!  Excellent style!
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Matthias
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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #6 - Feb 3rd, 2006 at 8:33pm
 
Yep, until someone can demonstrate a method that seems more likely, I'm keeping my vote with the left-foot-step-baseball-pitch. I messed around with is a bit today (indoors! a chunk of tire wrapped in bubblewrap and tape makes a pretty nice bang on a metal bay door) and it feels really smooth once the timing is right. Like any of the "full-body" throws, there is lots of potential for power, and this one is *fast* to set up.

The lifted heel on his back foot and tension in his right (push-off) leg seems to tie in pretty well. I think one of the problems I've always had with this sculpture is trying to interpret it as a static pose. The difference in rotation between the hips and shoulders is pretty awkward. Visualising this as being frozen a split second *after* he has commited to throwing make it clearer.

Amazing stuff. Bernini was 24 when he started this, and is said to have modeled David's face as his own.

Matthias
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Matthias
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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #7 - Feb 3rd, 2006 at 8:33pm
 
Here's another perspective to mix things up a bit. See what I mean about the different angles?

...

Matthias
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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #8 - Feb 4th, 2006 at 7:40am
 
It seems readily apparent to me that this statue is shown in an action sequence:
1) the head and upper torso is preparing to throw right handed.
2) the hands show what each of us would do to load the pouch while on the move, and with a foe watching.
He didn't neccessarily have to throw from this position, just load up.
3) the sholders, arms, legs and lower torso show a follow-through to a left handed throw.

Put all these seperate sections together and we get confused.

I believe that the artist made the model stand this way to capture the most "action-like" pose, not to be a study of how to sling.
It is perfectly clear that the model is one of us, a slinger.
If you want a model of a hunter, get a southern redneck, not a New York pretty boy.

Michaelangelo's David isn't even circumcised.
Didn't Michaengelo know about this Jewish religious custom?
And I still can't find his sling. His raincoat? Yes. Sling? No.


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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #9 - Feb 6th, 2006 at 7:39pm
 
hey guys, we have been looking at pictures of this one in my sculpture class, and i have been thinking; the sling he is using is very short, just based on pics i have seen of actual people using the sling, and my own experiances.  as for how legitimate the pose is, it seems very legitimate and i think that it could actually work for a throw.  another option is that is going to just sort of swing the sling around and just kind of wing the stone at him sideways across his chest.  i have done this kind of throw before, mostly by accident, and it is a powerful throw, but i have yet  to try it out for accuracy, though pretty much all throws can be refined for accuracy.

(sorry for the essay-like answer, i just got through writing a history paper)
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Re: Bernini's David
Reply #10 - Feb 6th, 2006 at 8:09pm
 
Siguy,
Compared to some of us (well, OK, with me), you are quite concise  Grin

This style is quite usable, and quite accurate.  I am still learning it (and still throwing straight into the ground because I do not  have my moves straightened out) but my ball or rock always goes straight toward the target (it just rarely gets there without a couple of bounces).

For me, after trying it for a week and reading what everybody else had to say about it, this works best:

Start facing your target, hands at or below your waist with the sling stretched between them, feet apart about shoulder-width.

Lift your right foot and take a step to the right, and twist your torso to the right, but keep looking at the target.  Place your right foot almost at right angles to the target, and bring your weight over your right leg.  The sling should now be pointing slightly to the right of the target.  At this point you should look just like the statue, if you stop there and somebody throws flour all over you.

OK, OK, I'll be serious.  Now, drop the rock from your left hand and pull back and up with your right arm.  Start twisting back to the left, as your arm comes up.  As your arm comes over your right shoulder, you should be taking a step toward the target with your left foot, and your weight should be shifting over to the left leg.  Release the rock and plant your left foot.  Or maybe they happen in the opposite order, I still am working on it.

Between the swing of your arm, the twisting of your torso, and the motion of your whole body toward the target as you step, this style should have a lot of power.  But you have to get the timing right.  Get the step and the swing out of phase with each other, and you will either drop the rock in front of you, or you will feel like you just stepped off a stair you did not know was there... very uncomfortable!  This style seems very similar to the figure-8 to me, in this way: it is very awkward most of the time, but a couple of times I have accidentally gotten it right and it really works well!  I will just have to work at it for awhile, same as I did with the figure-8.  I gave myself a couple of bruises with that one, but now it is very natural, very smooth.  I hope in a few more weeks the Bernini overhand will be as smooth for me.
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