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wrist action redundant (Read 4724 times)
sv
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wrist action redundant
Nov 11th, 2005 at 10:43pm
 
i've developed quite a good wrist action (not as good as techstuf's i bet) and used to sling as if i was skimming a stone. but recently i've been slinging keeping the elbow and wrist rigid, using only the shoulder/chest muscle. this not only reduces strain on the joints but has increased my range and has also made the apache style seem far more sensible. by making the arm rigid i've made my whole arm into a kind of staff sling - perhaps this is the way forward, it's easier and far harder hitting. with no wind-up, and by using a slightly longer sling than my usual 27" i have added a good 50 yerds to my range. the key seems to be to hold the release knot at a given pressure and let it release by itself.  i can knock a good chunk of bark from an oak by christ. and it's acurate.
does anyone else sling with a rigid arm?
sv

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Dale
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #1 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 2:10am
 
I've been playing with several styles recently, two of which are basically rigid-arm: the Apache and MagnumSlinger's "bowing centerline."

The Apache style, as Forsyth described it, is done with a straight arm:

"Without hesitation and without moving a step, very quickly swing your arm and sling up from behind you and over the top in an overhand throw while attempting to keep your arm as straight and long as you can for airspeed. Put your body fully behind it in a fast turning motion similar to a baseball pitcher but without the step. Be aggressive and make all motions as large as you can."


MagnumSlinger's style
starts with the arm bent (you look as if you were rubbing the back of your neck) but at the start of the cast you straighten your arm and it stays straight until release, if I am reading his description right.  Check the link and see what you think.

In both of those styles, the primary power comes from the torso (twisting for the Apache style, bowing forward for MagnumSlinger's style).  The arm just acts, as you describe, like a staff.

But they both are only short-range styles for me.  I cannot cast a stone more than about thirty yards with either style, so far.  It's good to hear you are getting good ranges; gives me some hope that I will improve.
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #2 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 2:22pm
 
sv

I resently found too that a rigid arm works better for me.
I'm still testing different styles but the best for me is having my sling hanging down not touching the ground while standing with my side facing the target.
I lift the sling in a diagonal curve over my head and go diagonal round my back down again. then in the next round it's time to ad force and release while I turn my upperbody to face the target.
Only I did hurt my elbow when throwing lighter stones.
I remebbered what I learned in AIKIDO.
It's the "unbendable arm"-principle.
In this techniq you have your arm slightly bent and you focus, immagining it to be a tube with extreem fast/hard gushing water. Somewhat amazingly, your muscles are not hard but relaxed, and your arm is unbendable...With tens muscles your arm would be bendable.
-Sounds strange when I write it down.-
This "unbendable arm" I added to the last half turn when I ad force and release.
I release somewhere between sideways and underhand.
This way I have no more ache in my elbow and added like you a lot of power and meters to the slingrange

sander
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #3 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 9:20pm
 
does anyone have any video, sounds like a cool idea! 8)
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #4 - Nov 13th, 2005 at 5:41pm
 
i've been having problems with forsythe's apache style in that my overarm action isn't vertical like a bowler's, but more of a 45 degree angle.  nevertheless the rigid arm seems to be the way forward as i said. it stands to reason, as a twisting body and the larger pectoral muscle are bound to generate more power than just the arm muscles. after all, discus throwers (and cricketers) use a rigid arm. the only trick is the release, it's harder to judge as there seems to be a lot more pressure on the release knot  -  instead of just opening your thumb ther knot has to be held at the correct tension so it is released "automatically" when the stone comes forward.
dale, there's no reason for short ranges with a rigid arm if you try the tense release-knot approach.
sv
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #5 - Nov 14th, 2005 at 2:09pm
 
Sv,
Yes, I also have trouble keeping my arm vertical.  Every time that I have actually hit my target, my arm has swung at an angle (around 30 degrees from vertical).

You suggestion about releasing, sounds good; I will try it.  It sounds like it should work.  It's just a matter of getting the greatest velocity (and therefore force) on the stone at the point where you would want to release it anyway.  And judging how tightly to hold the knot.  And... anyway, I'll see what happens.

Sander,
Your description of the "unbendable arm" sounds interesting.  I'll try that ... it will probably ruin my slinging for several days, but that happens any time I try something new  Cheesy
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #6 - Nov 21st, 2005 at 1:48pm
 
Hi there

I've been paying some more attention to the different techniques I use, and the 'unbendable arm' is usefull every time espescially for unstressing your wrist and elbow.
(I use underhand, greek overhand and the one discribed before, I try figure 8 and the helicopter but am still not very good with that, they seem not powerfull enough when I do it. But I'm probably doing something wrong, too littlle wrist-action I asume.)

Good luck

Sander
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #7 - Nov 21st, 2005 at 7:51pm
 
Wow, Dale, you are exactly correct that the straight arm IS a key to my "bowing centerline" technique, which evolved partially from my experiences knife throwing:  When you first learn to throw a knife, it should be done with a stiff arm and wrist, and the wrist, as SV said should NEVER snap, or bend, as this destroys accuracy (similar to "shooting off of" the elbows in prone combat pistol CQC shooting:  By stabilising the wrists by resting them on the ground, and "firing off of the wrists", you AUTOMATICALLY tighten groups fired under the WORST of possible stress conditions, often by FEET, from misses to possible head/organ shots!  The same holds true for slinging, so far as not bending the wrists is concerned!

The mention of so many true points with regard to such an approach has made this thread one of my favourites already!  The "unbendable arm" sort of automatically happens later, with practice, as you settle into a more natural, relaxed style and loosen up after hundreds of successful throws with knives, or the sling.  Your arm is relaxed, and partially bent, with a barely perceptible  "bouncing" sensation as the elbow naturally compensates for the momentum/dampens the shock, but only slightly, as in Aikido's "unbendable arm", and its Southern Chinese boxing counterpart, as used in Wing Ts'un Gong Fu, etc. where you find the optimum angle by extending your lead elbow a  five-spread-fingers distance from your rib cage (just make a Taiji/Tai Chi Chuan "fist guards elbow, open your fist to wide-spread "Aikido hand" fingers, and flip the rear "guarding" hand palm up so that the thumb tip is against your lead elbow, and adjust your elbow so that the tip of the pinky pushes it forward until the pinky is just touching the ribcage (approximately at the "bottom" touchable rib level/circa Gall Bladder 24-liver 13).  This is the optimum position for a strong guard (adaptable to "Dao Chi Do's" counter-Muay Thai "shield", and shifts well into Ryukyu Kenpo's/Aikido's (nikkyo) counter-grappling equilateral triangle pull of both hands into the thymus to set up further counters, such as the "bowing wrist/finger breaker", or striking down on the radial bone/nerve/lung and colon acupuncture/dim mak meridians, then backfisting or -chopping across (same movement as kali's backhand punyo strike, or step three of classic sinawali) the opponent's stomach-9 point/ (or just behind at the vagus nerve for a safer nerve/stunning knockout strike) at the carotid sinus for a dangerous "emergency only" blood pressure knockout.

At any rate, the more-or-less straight, unbendable arm is what you get when you practice the slinging technique you, Dale, so astutely refered to!  That made my day!  SV and the other very sharp posters here have hit on so many great related fine points, I'll have to re-read it to fully appreciate and digest all of it!  In knife throwing, you should always go straight down from twelve o'clock to six, and NEVER diagonally for most consistent accuracy, but with slinging, it seems to be both useful, and natural to do so, in many cases.  Although they have much in common, knife throwing and slinging are two different things, of course!  Horizontal "helecopter" slinging makes it easier to make a windage error, and likewise, the horizontal "overhead" release makes it harder to make windage errors, if your feet/body angle are positioned naturally aligned with the target, but makes it easier to make elevation mistakes with an early or late release.  With a diagonal release, however, both of these error tendencies are  lessened, so misses are less drastic along both lines, and corrections a little easier to make, initially..  However, with the "bowing centerline", by definition, your ideal path of your power stroke/release tends to BE your head's/body's  vertical centerline, so if your swing tends a little diagonal, that's fine, so long as your release line crosses the centerline at the same position each time, releasing just slightly before the intersection point, and the stone should cross the centerline just as it impacts with the target.

Thanks for bearing with me!  There's a video of this (several, in fact!) posted under the "Rapid Fire" thread, where I modify this technique slightly for applying maximum killing power and speed under "red line" self-defense/close quarters combat conditions.  It's not pretty, or graceful, and won't impress anyone wanting a Chinese opera-ballet wushu choreography, but it gets the job done like nothing else I've ever seen, or tried, and it's the one I WOULD USE (with or without the sling!), if forced to defend myself, or drive away a dangerous animal, and had something to throw (beer bottle, mug, glass, soda/soup cans, groceries, tools, small appliances, shoes, boots, belt buckle (slung by the handy, ingenius strap that they usually throw in when you buy the buckle! Grin)  heavy books, pipe fixtures, yanked-out heavy industrial power plugs, public phone recievers, sticks, rocks, cell phone, pens, furniture, (modified for using both hands, of course!) lap top, the kitchen sink, etc.! Roll Eyes Tongue Wink
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« Last Edit: Nov 22nd, 2005 at 3:51am by magnumslinger »  

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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #8 - Nov 22nd, 2005 at 2:06am
 
I'm with you.. you can't wrist it when the thing is pulling really hard as it does on a long throw.  You have to use the large muscles and let the small ones relax and stretch out.

I'm BACK
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #9 - Nov 22nd, 2005 at 2:13am
 
Master Knollslinger!!!!

You are back!!!  We have been worried about you.

The site have grown since you were here last and I think we have all been getting better at slinging by sharing our experiences.

I am still hoping to see your full spin technique on film!

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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #10 - Nov 22nd, 2005 at 2:16am
 
yes, I'm BACK. 

But am going thru difficult times.
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #11 - Nov 22nd, 2005 at 2:17am
 
Anything we can help?
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #12 - Nov 22nd, 2005 at 2:19am
 
There is a chat function to this site now.  If you have the time we can chat there.
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #13 - Nov 23rd, 2005 at 2:40pm
 
Welcome back, KnollSlinger!  Good to hear from you again.  I am sad to hear that times are rough.
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Re: wrist action redundant
Reply #14 - Nov 23rd, 2005 at 2:51pm
 
MagnumSlinger,

I have spent several evenings outside recently, playing with several slings (different lengths) and several styles.  I'm getting pretty accurate with your bowing centerline style, though I still cannot get any distance with it (timing problem, I think).  I also practiced the Forsyth Apache style, and the figure-8.

I had one of those "A-HA!" moments last night.  I switched from centerline to figure-8, and realized that I was doing the SAME MOTION!  The stance is different, as I am standing sideways to the target and twist to the left, but at the moment I start lifting the stone from hip level over my head, my arm is straightening and remains straight, and comes from behind me straight over my head and into the release.  The only difference (from the hips up) is that the stone is still, for the centerline style, and already moving, for the figure-8 style.  My stance at release is similar with both styles, though I get there by taking a step, for the centerline, and by twisting, for the figure-8.  However, I end up bent over, for the centerline, and upright, for the figure-8; I think the power I get from bowing, is attained by the wind-up spin of the figure-8.
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