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And one more joins the fray.. (Read 3846 times)
sv
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #15 - Sep 28th, 2005 at 6:16pm
 
it's not a snap from the shoulder, it's from the wrist/forearm.
i spent a holiday in july slinging on a beach, and it was weeks before my shoulde recovered, plus the tendon on the inner side of the elbow. but it was wrong! i can throw just as far
(120 -150m) without straining anything. it isn't training the shoulder, it's using the wrist in the final flick of the sling to accelerate the stone.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #16 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 4:50am
 
I experimented the last nights in the dark with only a weight, i.e. nothing flying away. There the figure-8 felt the best. I tried it this morning with stones and failed misserably. Two flew about 5-10m and the other three I didn't even see. Probably because they went in the totally wrong direction. And I still stress to much my shoulder. I try to buy in the next days 25kg of river stones for 6 EUR for training. And I will follow the "Tip for those studying the figure-8" thread closely.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #17 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 5:49am
 
people seem to either pick up the fig 8 straight away or find it incredibly tricky, like i do. if i was starting again i would ignore this technique and the apache technique, and start with greek overhand, or sidearm release. a 10m throw shows you're on the wrong track with the fig 8. there are plenty of vids here, the latest from africa_slinger with fig 8 shows this technique at it's fluid effortless best.
don't force the stone. it has it's own force based on the speed of the final snap, not a convulsive muscular torture session.
think chameleon's tongue - the reptilian b****rd sits there and barely moves. 
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #18 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 6:06am
 
Which of the guides here online do you recommend? I find all these different names and styles confusing. I still haven't found out what the Apache style is. Maybe I am trying to achieve to much at the beginning. Thank you.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #19 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 8:06am
 
Welcome Zywack.... might I enquire which military Strategy Website it was?

Pat
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #20 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 3:09pm
 
I will try the throw described by Lynn Ballard. In my tests of this this night I think I managed to not hurt me. I will try it on the weekend with stones.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #21 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 5:21pm
 
Zwiebeltuete,
I found
David Taylor's guide
to be the most useful for a beginning slinger (me, at the time).  David casts with a short windup, not a lot of spinning.  His underhand cast was the easiest for me to learn.

You found Lynn Ballard's article?  Good!  There is also a more detailed
figure study
drawn by Johnny Shumate, showing the figure-8 cast in nine steps instead of three steps.

As for the Apache style, it was described by Larry Forsyth ("
How to Build and Use a Traditional Apache Sling
").  Not a good style for distance, but very good for accuracy at close to medium range.

I'm not sure you can be too ambitious (though there is a price to be paid, in frustration experienced).  There is certainly a limit to how quickly you can assimilate a new style, but you pick up new styles faster with practice, I have found.  It took me a couple of months even to become consistent with Taylor's and Greenfield's underhand styles.  It took me several weeks and several bruises to learn the figure-8.  Each succeeding style has been quicker to pick up.  I think you will see the same thing, as you learn.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #22 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 6:26pm
 
Dale,

Thanks. I just noticed that Lynn's overhand style is a figure-8. Mark Weaver's too.  (I tried Lynn's with the sling always being in front of me.)

Now I think I know what Apache style is. Chris Harrison's Overarm seems to me the same.

So there seem to me two other styles: helicopter/overhead/sidearm and underhand/underarm, because I haven't seen in the articles section any overhand which is not a figure-8 or Apache and David Taylor's styles are to me underhand and overhead. I can't see any differences between his video 1 and 2 and between 4 and 5 while 4/5 being 1/2 with some different rotations prepended.

I am not so interested in underhand, because accuracy is more important to me than distance and I doubt that underhand is good there. So I'd rather try David Taylor's Greek Overhand. With something like that I started and got the stone at least flying mostly in the correct direction.

I think it would really be helpful to have an overview of basic styles with their characteristics and clear names.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #23 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 8:26pm
 
For me, the underhand cast is great for distance, and I am getting to where I can drop a rock pretty close to my target.  If I get good enough, I could perhaps catch dinner by dropping a rock on it from many yards away, where using the Apache style requires that I get within twenty yards or so (past that, my inaccuracy is enough to completely miss my target).  of course, all I have hunted so far is stumps... but if I were a termite, I would be eating pretty good!  Grin

Taylor's Greek overhand is a good one to learn.  If you haven't already, look at
Sv's video
of himself taking out the trash (putting a potato into a trash can from the other end of his back yard).  He uses the Greek overhand to very good effect!

A few months ago, I catalogued all the slinging styles I knew of.  I have been revising and expanding that catalogue, and this seems as good a time as any to "preview" the opening notes.  Your comments and criticism would be appreciated (especially about trying to describe things in a "hand-neutral" fashion); I want this thing, if I ever finish it, to be readable and useful.   These notes are not the whole catalog; they are just where I introduce the terms that I will use in the catalog, and describe the major classes of slinging styles.
____________________________________________

Some introductory notes on terminology

Every slinging technique has three phases, which I will call the
windup, the release snap and the follow-through.
The windup gets the rock (or whatever is being slung) moving, helps you
get a feel for its weight, and get it into position for the release
snap.  The release snap is the final quarter-turn or half-turn where all
the energy is added to the rock, by a combination of motions using the
arms, body, and often legs.  The follow-through is simply whatever
motions are needed to keep your body and the sling under control and
bring them to rest after releasing the rock; follow-through is a part of
every throw, but I will not mention it again.  I assume that you all
know you cannot just stop your arm after releasing, but must continue
the swing and bring your arm to rest in a controlled manner.

Slingers may be right-handed or left-handed (and a couple of us may be
both).  Rather than describe everything twice, or from just one
perspective, I have chosen to attempt "hand-neutral" descriptions.  The
hand you hold your sling cords in, is your sling hand; the hand
you hold the rock or ball or whatever in, is your rock hand.  I
may also refer to your sling side, sling shoulder, etc.  When you are
spinning your sling during the wind-up, if you would release the rock at
the bottom of the swing, you are spinning underhand (this is
clockwise for right-handers, counterclockwise for left-handers); if you
would release at the top, you are spinning overhand.  These terms
are used whether the sling is in front of you, behind you, beside you,
or above you.  If you are spinning the sling over your head like a
helicopter rotor, an underhand spin would release on your sling-hand
side, if you are facing the target.  (Justification: spin a sling beside
your body in the underhand direction, and gradually raise your arm until
the sling is spinning overhead like a helicopter rotor; which way is it
spinning?)  An overhand horizontal spin would release on your rock-hand
side.  The Frisbee style is the only style I know of that uses an
overhand horizontal spin.

And this brings us to the major classes of styles, of which the author
recognizes four.  Overhand and underhand styles spin the
sling in a more-or-less vertical plane; overhand styles release the rock
at the top of the swing, underhand styles release at the bottom.
Overhead and side-arm styles spin the sling in a
more-or-less horizontal plane; overhead styles release the rock above
shoulder-level, side-arm styles release anywhere from shoulder to
hip-level.  And none of these are defined rigidly; each slinger is going
to perceive and perform the styles differently.  I, personally, have a
hard time distinguishing David Taylor's Greek overhand from his Greek
side-arm, unless I'm stepping through his videos a frame at a time.  But
to David, they are distinct.

Please note that I categorize a style by how the sling moves during the
release snap.  There are styles that have a wind-up entirely different
from the release snap.  Can't have things too simple, you know.
____________________________________________

The original version of the style catalog, was posted
here
.  It is useful mostly for the links to the original descriptions, pictures, and videos.  Please note that it was written during a period when several people (including myself) had just "gotten" the figure-8 and were raving about it.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #24 - Sep 30th, 2005 at 12:12pm
 
Dale,

The first have of your description is very good. The second halve is understandable but not easily.

First you introduce over/underhand as a release position, then you shift it to a rotation direction. It would be more logical to me if you went the other direction: If it is rotated clockwise (I want to call it "R" like in chemistry. It probably comes from latin word for right.) it is an underhand release in vertical rotation and a right side release on horizontal rotation. And in S (Also used in chemistry for different orientation meaning left.) it is an overhand release in vertical rotation and a left side release on horizontal rotation.

The second thing is, that you describe in detail over/underhand and near the end of your text there appears the sidearm. Also this sidearm can be also R or S, over- or underhand, depending on the ritation direction. Although it is certainly more difficult to find a reference direction. If a rotate over the head and it is an R swing is the same rotation done under my head still R or is it S because now I look down?

The split into the phases is very good. I would try to give a list of possible differences if possible according to their phase, e.g.:

- rotation direction
- vertical/horizontal
- vertical: all in front, in front and in back
- horizontal in case of the second phase: obove head, shoulder height, hip height (diskus style)
- releases depending on rotation direction
- leg/body movement?

These are than bulding blocks I can use to describe a swing.  The Apache style throw is (as I understand it) an [all vertical] [S] rotation (->overhand release) [in front of the body] with a very short first phase. And a figure-8 style throw is an [all vertical] [S] rotation (->overhand release) [in front and in back of the body] with a medium length first phase.

Btw, the only difference I can see in Dave's first two videos even in slow motion is that in the first he hits the target.

And btw. I am now a proud owner of 25kg marble pebbles.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #25 - Oct 2nd, 2005 at 5:32am
 
This morning I had washed and dried pebbles AND no rain so I took this oportunity and did some slinging. I tried to imitate Dave's Style no. 1 and amed at a corn plant about 5-10m away.  Direction was most of the time relatively good. Sometimes I let go to late so the stone went left into the ground. Max. distance was about 10-20m. This is without much body movement, because there I have not or nearly no strain in the shoulder. If I add body movement at the end it strains and doesn't get farer.

I also tried a few times improvised vertical underhand trows. They went about 20-30m. But I think this is only because of the slinging angle and not because they have more speed.

Next batch of stones cleaned. I hope there is tomorrow a time when it doesn't rain.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #26 - Oct 3rd, 2005 at 9:19am
 
I have noticed that it is important in Dave's 1 to don't move the hand much above or left of the head. So I can get easily without strain about 20m.

And with the diskus style it is easy to get more power.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #27 - Oct 4th, 2005 at 2:37pm
 
Zwiebeltuete,
Ich danke Sie, für Ihre Kritik.  And that just about exhausts my command of die deutsche Sprache.  I appreciate your comments and analysis.

Based on your comments and on some other comments I received, I believe my experiment with "hand-neutral" descriptions is a mistake.  The idea itself is good, but to execute the idea I must introduce the terminology (as I attempted above) and require my readers to become familiar with that terminology.  I think it may, after all, be better to describe everything from my own perspective (right-handed) and put the left-handed through their usual exercise of translating the descriptions for their own use.

I thought of writing everything from a left-handed perspective, and make the right-handers do the work this time, but I fear I would make mistakes and end by confusing everybody.  Better to stick to what I am familiar with.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #28 - Oct 8th, 2005 at 7:36pm
 
I have improved my main body movements. It helped me a lot to get me filmed so I can see how pathetic the power behind these shots was. I concentrated on Dave's body moves and then I got most of the time about 50m and sometimes about 60m with the Greek overhead style. I tried today also the Apache style and got with nearly no training also about 50m. And I haven't even used a quarter of the 25kg of marble pebbles.
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Re: And one more joins the fray..
Reply #29 - Oct 8th, 2005 at 7:48pm
 
hey I dont know how that happens but there are so many things in this world that are similar in that nature.and I wish you luck in that.
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