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The Katana (Read 15850 times)
knight
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The Katana
Jun 6th, 2005 at 3:39pm
 
recently(3 days ago) i bought a katana and i did some reasearch and found out it was sharpend wrong but thats besides the point i also reasearched they could cut through almost anything they even shot a bullet at it and it split the bullet so just post here if u have any info on it
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Mike_R
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Re: The Katana
Reply #1 - Jun 6th, 2005 at 8:47pm
 
Back in the day when I was involved in martial arts, we did kendo training. The shape and size of that kind of sword is nice, but frankly the myth that a katana is the best sword ever is all hype. Yes, they are sharp, and yes the method used to produce makes them quite flexible and durable. But the main reason for using a method of folding and drawing out the steel was that japan had mostly low quality iron. One of the only ways to get a good blade from iron like that is to use many, many repetitions of heating and hammering, and folding. All the extra hammering and heating helps eliminate the impurities.

If you were to objectively compare katanas to swords made in Europe and the middle east, you would find that many swords from those areas were stronger, lighter, and better balanced than a katana. And the folding technique was used in the middle east also.
In the middle east they made blades of what was called damscus steel. They used very, very hard, high carbon steel, and used a folding method also. Those blades had that wavy look just like a katana.

Anyway that is just my two cents. I'm not even sure if any of that answers your question, but I have a pet peeve about people touting the katana as the apex of blade making.

I have some knives I inherited that were made by a man named "Morseth" in arkansas (I think it was made there) They are damascus steel. And they are ridiculously sharp. Sharper than any katana I have ever seen. I use them for skinning.
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Douglas_The_Black
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Re: The Katana
Reply #2 - Jun 6th, 2005 at 9:12pm
 
" Anyway that is just my two cents. I'm not even sure if any of that answers your question, but I have a pet peeve about people touting the katana as the apex of blade making. "


man i cant agree more with you there! I also dont agree with the asian martial arts being better then any other. I have never been in any martial arts, so i dont have any say in this
but european is much easer to learn then the asian stuff. I have seen people use both styles and tryed to replicate them, (i was safe about it Smiley) and the european grabs and what not where much easer to do and seemed much more Straight foreword. But i cant say much on martial arts.  Smiley
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Re: The Katana
Reply #3 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 5:02am
 
I bought a katana long ago and i sharpened it and cuts ok, (just cut some palm leaves)but i'm not sure what kind of steel is it and i don't think it would keep a sharp edge under heavy use. Most of the katana reproductions are crap metal, just a decoration to hang in the wall i guess therre are a few commercial katanas made with good steel that will cut decently, like the ones made by Ontario and cold steel
A spanish brand named "steel warrior" makes them in 440 steel full tangs,  so i think it can get a nice edge and be a reliable katana.
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Re: The Katana
Reply #4 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 5:09am
 
I think that only Quentin Tarantino obsessed teens believe that the swords of Samurai are the best ever created.  If you know even the slightest bit about swords, at all, then you will know that even Anglo-Saxon and Viking craftsmen in the so-called dark ages had, in many ways, better sword producing technology.
  However, Douglas_the_black, I disagree with you about Asian martial arts.  Let's take Tae-Kwon-Do.  It's based on several scientific principles to increase power and efficiency, and it has developed to an art form.  Western martial arts typicalled revolve around the principle of "if I hit him here, it hurts a lot", and there is very little dedication.  In Asia, martial arts are taken very seriously, where children in Martial arts schools train about eight hours every morning, that kind of thing - just look at the displays of Shao-Lin monks for the concentration and skill they show.  In a fight between an Asian martial artist and a person schooled in Western martial arts, I'd put money on the Asian-schooled man (or woman, of course.)
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Douglas_The_Black
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Re: The Katana
Reply #5 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 10:06am
 
yes but im talking about ease of learning. western martial arts seem like they are about 10 times easer to learn, then the asian stuff. western martial arts may not be as good as the asian martial arts but i still like the western stuff.  Smiley
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Re: The Katana
Reply #6 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 10:22am
 
I find tae-kwon-do so ungainly that in a fight it would be ineffective. Maybe if you were a master and had spend 10 years perfecting it. Otherwise, good luck. Just look at the ultimate fighting championship. People who train in asian martial arts are no better off than those who train in boxing and wrestling. Even brazillian jui-jitsu which is a very well designed art is by no means unbeatable. For years I did all kinds of dangerous work (bail recovery mainly) and have been in quite a few confrontations. From this I slowly learned that arts like jui-jitsu with it methods of putting a person on the ground and controlling them without having to beat them into submission, and arts like muay-tai with it fast strikes and focus on close attacks with elbows and knees are in my opinion the best bet for self defence.
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Re: The Katana
Reply #7 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 12:15pm
 
What western martial arts are there apart from boxing nd wrestiling?
Also, its amazing how posts go off topic like this, mst notably one leeding, unexpectedly to falconry...
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knight
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Re: The Katana
Reply #8 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 12:27pm
 
lol well i have a video of a katana splitting a bullet and i think japaneese steel was stronger then thier iron but yeah shao-lin monks are amazing i took tae-kwan-do and hated it with a passion only because it was almost all kicking i wanted to do stuff with a stick or a bokken sword so im thinking of going into kendo(i like thier uniforms) lol
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Mike_R
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Re: The Katana
Reply #9 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 6:37pm
 
Well, just so you know Iron is what steel is made from. So japanese iron and steel are one and the same. All I was saying is that the process used to make their swords had as much to do with the material as anything else.

Oh, and hell yes, pick martial arts based on the uniform!
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Re: The Katana
Reply #10 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 9:46pm
 
English is so right on...To be good with many martial arts you have to practice many different techniques not just flashy kicks and getting belts. The idea of getting different colored belts has been adopted in the west mostly to give people what they pay for. They get to say I am a so and so belt and can do all these wonderful katas...but in actual fighting, katas are almost worthless without "alot" of sparring practice.  When I practiced Aikido there was two types of people. The white belts, and the black belts. The student and the master. If you got to black belt it meant you were one awsome martial artist. Something like 7 years of training to even be ready for taking the test, let alone actually passing it. What bugs me the most is the lack of emphasis western martial artists put on Chi/Ki.  Oh yea..Katanas=good.  Grin
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Re: The Katana
Reply #11 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 11:06pm
 
me,

You study aikido?  I have wanted to learn for a while now but couldn't find a good dojo near my home.  I really like the science and thinking of the art.  How the defender should try not to hurt the attacker make sense to me.

I have studied Iaido and have a katana.  I think the katanas are nothing magical like the ledgends says but at the same time they are in general better quality than most other swords.

Mike_R,

Would jui-jitsu be useless in a gang fight?  While you are busy holding someone wouldn't another attacker be able to strike you easily?  In that case do yo think muay-tai is more useful?  or other style of martial arts?
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Mike_R
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Re: The Katana
Reply #12 - Jun 8th, 2005 at 12:52am
 
Jui-jitsu is very useable. Although brazilian jui-jitsu trains in a lot of tactics for fighting on the ground it very useable as well. From my experiences I have come to group physical conflicts into one of two types. Situations where you want to subdue and control a person without hurting them too badly. For this jui-jitsu is good, I teaches a lot of simple to learn throws and joint holds. If you can isolate a person on the ground and control them with a wrist, finger, arm hold, or similar you can usually do so without causing any lasting harm. The other type is situations where to defend yourself you must neutralize as many attackers as fast as possible. In this situation people may be armed and are probably dangerous. In that case I do not worry about their health. Holds, throws, and locks learned in jui-jitsu can if applied with a little more force break a persons arms, wrists, fingers, etc. This in my opinion makes it an effective art. I think any martial art can be effective if a person trains in such a fashion as to learn it's application outside of the dojo. I also like muay-tai because it taught me lots of fast, hard hitting strikes, easy to practice blocks, and close in fighting techniques. I find that most people who consider themselves good fighters, or bad asses, or whatever need plenty of room to throw haymaker punches, and football kicks with cowboy boots on. If you can get inside of their prefered range you have the advantage. Also I find that strikes with the elbow and knee save a lot of wear and tear on yourself. It seems like every time I punch someone in the mouth I get infected knuckes from their teeth. So I don't do it anymore. Ditto with your feet. You might need them for running away if all else fails.

I don't mean to be a know it all but I just want to share what I have learned the hard way. After 15 years of martial arts I have started to see that I am only ever using less than a dozen techniques. I have also learned that there really is no reason to venerate one art over another. I am glad that so many arts have lasted up till now, and I hope that they continue being taught well into the future, their value in teaching people aboput discipline, the connection between mind, and body, their important spiritual lessons shouldn't be lost. But, when it comes to teaching self-defense I have started to think that a teacher should look at other arts, examine their own arts, and rationally decide what to teach. I don't think I would ever go back to teaching a traditional martial art to people for self defence.
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Mike_R
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Re: The Katana
Reply #13 - Jun 8th, 2005 at 1:08am
 
Oh, sorry Tint, I'm not sure that any of that answered your question. Jui-jitsu is effective against a gang of people. They teach quite a lot about how to position yourself so their numbers work against them. Then you just use holds and throws to their maximum effect. For example instead of throwing a person down and holding them in a wrist lock, using the pain of the wrist lock to hold them in place you would throw them down hard, on their face, wrench the wrist lock and break their wrist, then drop a knee on their neck, or kick them in the head to finish them. Or if someone came at you with a knife, you might step aside, try to control their knife arm and twist it to make them drop it. Then maybe try to sweep them to the ground and hold them there. You could use the same moves again: Step in and control their knife arm, twist their wrist and arm using leverage to control their weapon, then just twist in and stab them in the kidney with their own knife, then as you sweep them instead of pushing them over use the upper knife edge of your hand to strike them in the neck as you sweep.  I'm not saying that you should do these things, all I'm saying is that you can vary the degree of the moves to fit the situation.

The same works for striking arts too. Only then I vary the location of the strikes as well. Like instead of hitting someone in the solar plexus to wind them, you would hit them in a more vital spot to neutralize them more.
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Re: The Katana
Reply #14 - Jun 8th, 2005 at 1:43am
 
Tint, yes I did, but for not as long as I should have, and I wish I was still in it. Their are two schools of thought in Aikido now, one to not cause undue damage to the attacker (which is the dojo I learned at) and one where they vary the defensive/offensive move to cause more damage.  I dont nessacarily agree with the second school but understand why some would want to learn. Harmony and understanding where true power comes from is more important to me. 

Mike_R , as you mentioned their are a great many things which are taught in martial arts schools that rarely if ever get used. And some where you could use them but really a more basic move would be faster and more effective. This reminded me of a story I heard about Bruce Lee. He was fighting in a free-style martial artists tournament and was up against a black belt of some art or another. He took the guy out in about 2 mins, and felt kind of bad because to him this seemed like way to much time. He went back and basically stripped out all the showy/flashy and relativley useless moves from his repetoire and thats how he came up with his own brand of martial arts.  Not sure if this is true, but cool story none the less.  Smiley
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