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Natural Selection (Read 11374 times)
Hellfire
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Natural Selection
Feb 25th, 2005 at 8:01pm
 
Is it true or just an idea that the first man who became proficient with providing food, or shelter, or other necessities live long enough, pass on their genes, of which the genes are "preprogrammed" to be similar to the parent, and then they progress, like so, the smart, the strong, the ones who could communicate and function in a city, nation, or empire, are the only ones who will eventually be here, so like it makes an efficient people.

Or is this just blasphemy, waiting to be cast aside?
Any opinions?
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lobohunter
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #1 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 9:28pm
 
awe this subject could fire a wonderfully heated discussion
lets take it one step deeper to the first female human in constant estrus being able to choose and Denny mates at will and produce maximum amount of offspring. where as only the males best at providing would be chosen as mates there by providing the origin of our extremely competitive nature which has truly separated us from the rest of animal kind
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #2 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 1:14am
 
Natural selection does exist...  Grin
check this.  http://www.darwinawards.com/
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english
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #3 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 5:00am
 
Evolution works by single mutations occuring in DNA every time it replicates.  Sometimes the mutation provides an advantage, such as bigger teeth, something like that, sometimes it's a disadvantage, such as a smaller brain, and sometimes it happens to "junk" DNA.  If there is an advantage, then the organism will be able to compete better for resources than other organisms, and so will survive, hopefully to pass on it's better advanced genes to the next generation.
  That used to be the case.  Now, unfortunately, it seems like someone shat in the gene pool, and we have everyone surviving.  If someone was born without the ability to have babies, then surely it is not advantageous for that person to have babies because then they will, in turn, not be able to have babies and thus the distinct disadvantage continues.  Also, because of advances in medicines, fat people, stupid people, and so on are surviving to pass on their stupid, fat genes.  Everyone is surviving.  People say this is a good thing, but is it?
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #4 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 5:20am
 
nowadays, i wouldn't say 'natural selecetion' because evolution and the competition for live was always linked with a high evolution pressure. the conditions (like weather, wild animals, not enough food etc) were very bad and only those, who were better adapted than the others, survived.
nowadays, especially in the great industrie nations, things like luck or good connections are much more important than the ability to make and handle a deadly long ranging weapon of some cords.
we don't have this pressure like 15000 years ago, and so i wouldn't tell it evoulution nowadays.
but i'm happy that there isn't the evolution pressure like 15000 years ago. everybody can imagine how difficult our live would be without the achieves of the civilization, for example medicaments and anaesthesia in the modern medicine.

english: i agree with you, but i believe you wouldn't want to die, if (for example) a large grizzly is going to mangle you. don't you? in this view, i think it's a good thing that all/most people survive.

if we say 'everyone survive', we forget that for example in africa every day thousands of children die of hunger and diseases. not everyone survives, only those who have enough money to buy medicine, food, etc.  Sad
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #5 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 5:33am
 
You know, surprisingly, your life would not be too difficult, for a number of reasons.  You wouldn't have anything to compare it to, so you'd think that your life was just great.  Secondly, weather, wild animals, food problems are also modern problems.  Perhaps not in the same way, but you would be much more used to being around bears and snakes, and only extreme conditions would really endanger you, just as it is today.
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #6 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 5:38am
 
could you imagine the pain of a operation without anaesthesia?? could you imagine to be ill and don't have any medicaments? could you imagine a cold winter (-15°C) without warm clothes and central heating fire? (for the woman) could you imagine a birth without pain soothing medicaments?
i don't think so...
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #7 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 6:00am
 
But, if you didn't know those things, such as anaesthetics, existed, you would have absolutely no problem with having operations done on you without them.  Also, it is possible to make soothing medicines and remedies from wild plants.  Where do you think modern medicines come from?
  Also, you say "without warm clothes."  Of course people had warm clothes in the stone age, as far back as you can go, really.  Tribes people the world over do not go around naked or wearing bark loincloths only, you know.  They would kill bears, deer, and other fur bearing animals.  Fire, also, is something you mention as absent, although I do believe controlled use of fire goes back 1.5 million years ago.
  And the point is, if you couldn't cope with giving birth with no medicines, or couldn't stand amputation of an arm to prevent infection and death without anaesthesia, then you would die, and your genes would not pass on, and this would be, from the point of view of evolution, a good thing.
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #8 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 6:13am
 
when was the last time you had really great pain, for example from a open wound? i don't think you would go into the forest and take some plants as anaesthetic (i think, scientists isolate the agents of wild plants, synthetizise them and put them with a much more concentration in pills, don't they? the concentration of these agents in plants is too less to really sooth pain).
my favourite example with the modern medicine is only one of many. what i want to say, is: live 15000 years ago was hard. very hard. and i wouldn't want to change all these achieves of civilization with this simplier live 15000 years ago.
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english
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #9 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 6:39am
 
The last time I experienced great pain was when my right calf muscle was opened up by a sheared off piece of metal from a table about two years ago.  I have a big, enduring scar there.  Before that, my nose was smashed by someone headbutting me in the head.
  Plants can be used for medicine totally wild.  Salix sp, digitalis sp, both of these are very strong (very very strong) pain killers, and salix (willow) is very common.  There are many many others.  Too many to know fully.
  The point is, though, that hunter gatherer life is actually very leisured and relaxed.  Obviously if there is an accident, you might die quite quickly, but you would make sure that you never had an accident.  Simple as that.  All hunter gatherer peoples move from one food source to another in a relaxed manner, waking up when they please.  These people do not suffer heart attacks from work related stress - something that regularly happens in London, New York, Tokyo, Frankfurt.  People would learn about pain early on and would become accustomed to it.  The only major problem would likely be infection of small wounds - and that can be avoided by repeatedly washing the wound, something that requires common sense rather than a computer and a team of scientists to realise.
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #10 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 7:00am
 
some scenarios for a hunter 15000 years ago:
you are falling down a rock and break your leg. nobody is there to help you.
you've got a chill and nobody is there to say you which plant is the right.
it's snowy, your fire is going out and there is no dry wood around you.

some scenarios for a group of hunters 15000 years ago:
a other group of hunters attacked you. a enemy wounds you with a spear and now, you've got a 2 inch deep and 5 inch wide wound on the leg. there was also some fresh blood of a tiger and fish on this spear. don't you think you would cry of pain and wish to have modern medicine which easily can help you?
your fire is going out, it's rainy and you don't have any dry wood.
in the night, your fire is going out and in the forest around you is a group of hungry lions.

what does a hunter during the (in the winter) short day? he hunts. but what to do if there aren't any animals to hunt, for example in the winter?
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english
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #11 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 7:25am
 
Clearly you need to learn some primitive skills.  If a hunter doesn't know any plants that can help him, then he is not worthy of hunting.
  If an hunter can't find dry wood, or is not prepared, then he is not any kind of woodsman I know.

  The stabbing scenario..... Well, obviously you wouldn't know about modern medicine, but of course you would want a way out of the situation if you had been stabbed.  I know of no spear that can make a hole that big, but assuming it can, you can find some plantains leaves to soothe the pain, and maggots to eat the dead flesh.  You can use a flint or obsidian knife to amputate your leg, or you could clean it out and hope for the best.
  In winter there is actually plenty of game.  Many animals are, of course, hibernating.  But many kinds of edible prey are around, although actually going out and hunting them if often not viable in winter.  That is why you use knowledge of traps to help you, simple deadfalls, snares, and so on.  That's the winter way.
  It would also be rare to hunt alone, and if you did, you would be totally prepared and know what to do in most situations.  Also, true hunter gatherer groups rarely fought each other.  Farming brought about warfare (eg, in the Great Basin in America, and most of Australia, warfare was incredibly rare if it happened at all.  In the northeast USA, where there was much agriculture, there was also a great deal of warfare.)
  The point is, if you can't hack it, then you die.  That is natural selection.  People can't understand it nowadays, they would be far too scared.  But it's the natural way.  Any other is just wrong.
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #12 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 7:34am
 
so you say it's natural selection to self-amputate a leg with a flint knife? i believe i could renounce of that. and i don't believe, you, although you think this sort auf evolution is a good thing, would amputate your leg with a knife. i can't believe that. i bet you will change your opinion, if you are in the situation to amputate your leg or stand in front of an angry grizzly mum. everybody wants to live.
don't misunderstand me. in my opinion, these evolution was good to reach all these abilities we now have. but now, our civilization is on a level where is no more of this evolution needed.
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Hellfire
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #13 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 1:19pm
 
ok.
These "scenarios" kind of ideas, they dont make any sense. It is like the very idea of a natural athletic woodsman getting into a scrape that only a city slicker would even think about ( because they are so ignorant) If you have lived in the wilderness all of your life (about twenty five years) and you experienced, learned, and know much of what there is necessary to know, then nothing will surprise you. You will likely get into a scrape
because you are dumb, there you go, you dont pass on your genes so more dumb peopel are made.
This is evolution.
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english
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Re: Natural Selection
Reply #14 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 1:35pm
 
That's right.  You've hit the nail slap bang on the head there, Hellfire.
  Btw graf_zahl, did you hear of that guy in Utah who cut off his own arm because it was trapped under a rock?  He used his knife to cut off his flesh, but had trouble with bone.  Apparently he used the rock as leverage to break the bone.
  Yes, I do believe I could cut off my own leg.
  And evolution is a thing that happens whatever.  You can't stop it, because it's just random mutations to your DNA.
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