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Japanese Slings (Read 6503 times)
Chris
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Japanese Slings
Sep 2nd, 2004 at 11:17am
 
I've never heard much about slings in Japan, so I looked around online this morning.  Found only one real link unfortunately, but it confirmed what I already thought.

"First of all, I've never heard of an art such as ishinagejutsu, the art of throwing stones, at least in terms of an organized system, so that part's easily disposed of. I don't know why it is, but it seems that use of the sling was never widespread in Japan. It certainly was not developed in any sort of organized manner such as one would find in the classical martial arts, or koryu. That leaves sticks. Now we're talking--two or three hundred schools, more or less, that included the bo (staff) or jo (stick) in their training curricula, either as a primary or secondary weapon. Many of these schools are still active."

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/mskoss7.html

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Douglas
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #1 - Sep 3rd, 2004 at 11:20am
 
My Japanese wife recognizes the sling as a Japanese weapon, but she can't recall the proper name of it, so it looks like it did have a folk history. I don't think there's a formal sling-jutsu, though I wouldn't be surprised at this point....
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Chris
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #2 - Sep 3rd, 2004 at 11:04pm
 
Does "ishinagejutsu, the art of throwing stones" ring a bell?

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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #3 - Sep 4th, 2004 at 12:10am
 
Having studied a variety of the eastern martial arts I can say that the most similar weapon I have found to a sling is the manriki gusari or Kusari-fundo.  These weighted chains or cords were swung or thrown at an enemy.   I actually used my star pockets with 1" steel sling ammo ball bearings and dacron cord for my personal Kusari during my Ninjutsu studies.   It is somewhat strange to me that I never found written accounts of the sling in Japanese history......their history is dotted with various anomalous and unlikely inventions in their never ending quest to become the ultimate 'utilitarians' of the world.   Quite ahead of their time in many ways......the invention of the 'hang glider' or 'hito washi' for instance.....

I think that the sling could have made an indelible impact in such a feudal society had their culture not favored much more the honor of meeting their opponents face to face in battle.  Kind of fun to think about what the adoption of the sling as a battle tool might have meant for the future of such a culture....
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Ian Robertson
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #4 - Sep 4th, 2004 at 10:44am
 
Quote:
I think that the sling could have made an indelible impact in such a feudal society had their culture not favored much more the honor of meeting their opponents face to face in battle.  Kind of fun to think about what the adoption of the sling as a battle tool might have meant for the future of such a culture....



The apparent lack of slings in Japanese history is very interesting, but I don't think it can be well explained this way. Recent historical research has suggested that the importance of short range weapons in Japanese military history (above all the sword) has been greatly exaggerated. Until fairly recent times, for example, the bow appears to have been much more crucial--if this the case, the lack of slings is more puzzling. There are several articles that lay out the importance of bows and guns in Japanese military life, but I understand that a recent book by Karl Friday (which I haven't read yet) discusses the issue: "Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan" (Friday/Routledge/2004)

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Ian Robertson
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #5 - Sep 4th, 2004 at 12:39pm
 
Quote:
"The apparent lack of slings in Japanese history is very interesting, but I don't think it can be well explained this way"



I agree, in part.....to which I would add:  The term 'well explained' is itself, subjective, when considering the Japanese.  Wink  The use of bows in japanese warfare was pivotal and ubiquitous.  The type of bows used would certainly have made the sling a formidable battle weapon, to be sure.  But as I stated earlier....long range battle strategy was not her strong suit.....at least in her earlier, more feudal years.   I mistakenly assumed that my statements conveyed the time period I was referencing.  Of course your reference has merit for the time period that you, yourself reference when you make mention of guns alongside bows.   Japanese history is replete with enough recorded accounts of battle strategy to confirm my observation that Japan's feudal years were dominated by close range tactics which generally eschewed long range fighting.   I note that you make mention of the sword as a close range battle weapon, which use was greatly exaggerated in war.  You are correct.   And I can see how my general comment about face to face battle could be construed to emphasize handheld weapons like the sword.  I would point out that the single defining characteristic of Japanese warfare for centuries was the 'Way of the Horse and Bow' which was still a short range affair as practiced by the Japanese.   My point being, presently, that although the Japanese had the intellect and creativity to parallel the advancements of other cultures......her way of life,  her moral code and the very core of her ideological belief system largely prevented the widespread adoption of such innovations.   Of course this may be interpreted various ways, I'm sure.    Apprapo when considering these enigmatic people.
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #6 - Sep 4th, 2004 at 1:21pm
 
I would have thought that the sling would be a good weapon for Japanese warfare - in the time of the aforementioned "Way of the Horse and Bow", the sling would have made an excellent weapon with which to arm ashigaru, because arming them with bows would be very expensive.  And surely it would make sense to ensure that your army had as much long-range power as possible?  Perhaps slings were tried out, but it was found that they could not penetrate samurai armour, or that people found them difficult to use.  I am not much of an expert on Japanese history, although I do find much of it quite fascinating.   I just get lost in the different names - Takeda Shingen, Tokugawa Iesayu, Uesugi Kenshin (the man who died on the toilet after a Ninja assault with a spear, interestingly placed), Oda Nobunaga...  Great men, all of them, but I can never remember who was allied to whom, who betrayed whom, who... you get the idea.
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #7 - Sep 4th, 2004 at 2:02pm
 
It all boils down to the penchant that Japanese war strategists had for short to midrange engagements.....a vestige of centuries of blind loyalty to firmly engrained tradition.  WWII is a prime example.....
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #8 - Sep 4th, 2004 at 2:54pm
 
The Japanese appear to have been reasonably effective in all their tactics in WWII.  Reasonably.
  Centuries of blind loyalty to firmly engrained tradition?  Perhaps.  But in some ways, this is a good thing.  Is that not why you are interested in primitive technology?
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Chris
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #9 - Sep 5th, 2004 at 12:34am
 
One major difference is that western combat was much more siege based.  Slings play well into this formula.  The japanese, even with their bows, we're using them at much closer ranges.  They valued personal maneuverability (bow) over perhaps more effective mass formations (sling).  Also, Japanese combatants wore armor, I'd venture to say more than their western counterparts.  Many of the men participating in these medieval and pre-roman battles were barely armed at all.  Many just had spears of pitchforks.  Bows are far more effective at piercing armor than a sling shot.  Just a thought.

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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #10 - Sep 5th, 2004 at 12:45am
 
Good points Chris.  Gotta love that Japanese armor!
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #11 - Sep 5th, 2004 at 12:47am
 
No english.   Centuries of blind loyalty to firmly engrained tradition is not the reason I am interested in primitive technology.  Roll Eyes
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #12 - Sep 5th, 2004 at 11:30am
 
Maybe not centuries of blind loyalty - but firmly engrained tradition must surely be part of it.
  Japanese warfare, from what I know about ninjutsu and Japanese castles, was reasonably siege-based - there are numerous accounts of sieges, at least in the Sengoku Jidai period.  Perhaps it is limited to this era, but I wouldn't be so sure.  But of course, by the 17th century, guns had been introduced to Japan, making the sling less useful.  I would say, however, that by the time of major sieges in Europe, the sling was rather out of fashion.  The 13th, 14th and 15th centuries saw most siege action in Europe, and the crossbow and longbow were firmly established, weapons which are excellent for siege warfare.  The idea about "personal maneuverability" is totally correct - European warfare was mostly about massed formations, be it of slingers, archers, spearmen, etc.
  And I would agree with the idea that Japanese warriors of all ranks would have worn more armour than their western counterparts.  This is probably because effective armour in the Japanese style is cheaper than effective armour in the European style.  A brigandine in 15th century Europe would have cost more than a full suit of lacquered wooden, leather or other armour in Japan in the same century; and a brigandine would be less effective.  I think armour is the deciding factor in the Japanese non-adoption of the sling.
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #13 - Sep 5th, 2004 at 12:27pm
 
Quote:
Does "ishinagejutsu, the art of throwing stones" ring a bell?

Chris


If her and her relatives (mine, too!) did know anything, it would be of the sling as a folk-weapon, not as a "jutsu" or specialized warrior art.... I would expect the former to surface first...
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Re: Japanese Slings
Reply #14 - Sep 5th, 2004 at 12:30pm
 
English, there might be a 'grain' of truth to that statement.  I mean,  if you factor in genetics.  The sling was never what I'd call an engrained tradition in my family lineage, at least as far back as I've been able to trace.  You must be referring to the fact that I've instituted such in my immediate family.   Or perhaps the tenuous connection to what was, for many, a tradition eons ago.....without which, most likely, my father would not have had the brain fart to make me a sling when I was younger!  Wow....gotta say.....those deductive reasoning skills surpass even your commanding cursory googling prowess.....(lol?)


Statistically.....I had to do it English.  Tongue




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