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Cestrosphendone (Read 126309 times)
wannabeslinger
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #300 - Aug 31st, 2008 at 10:19pm
 
I made a a dart today. I used a metal tube that I flattened at the end and sharpered to a point also and I think it will work well once I make a proper sling for it.

thanks for the idea

ill sub on youtube if I havent already
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DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #301 - Dec 24th, 2008 at 2:46am
 
How did it go?
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David Morningstar
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #302 - Jan 11th, 2009 at 4:33pm
 
Some more Latin types having a crack at Cestros translations....

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8956
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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #303 - Jan 13th, 2009 at 12:11pm
 
Hi friends… Ah! it have passed a year since my last post here, although I enter to read from time to time. As said in Reply 283, wich show the different designs of the cestros sling, I was working with a new design that could be the original Macedonian.  Past summer I´ve tested the design exhaustively and have found that is the best of all others. It locates the point of attachment of the dart over the fins, like in the Hollenback design.
Thanks David M. for that link on Latin, it´s awesome that somebody has raised the text of Livius on the cestros there and I wonder if Archimedes is a buddy of this forum too. I like his interpretation of the text since it agrees with my new design. I will enter that Latin forum to continuing commenting the text with them to see if we all are able to definitively clarify the mystery of the cestros.


Usually, priority is given to the cestros text of Polibius since it is previous and apparently Livius was inspired by him. Nevertheless, the text of Livius is more explicit in the description of the most enigmatic part of the weapon: the way of atachement  of the dart to the sling. As I said at the beginning of the topic, Livius uses the mysterious word " scutalia" , very rare in Latin, so rare that it only appears twice in all kept Latin texts, being the second time also by him in a text that describes the Achaean  sling: “et est non simplicis habenae, ut Balearic aliarumque gentium funda, sed triplex scutale, crebis suturis duratum…” (and were not made of two single strap, like those of the Balearic slingers, but they consist of three thongs, stiffen by being sewn together…). Here the mysterious word does not show any ambiguity since it talks about a pouch made of three pieces or strips of leather sewn to each other to make the concave shape of the pouch. And in my opinion that is the real meaning of the word “scutale” (plural scutalia): pouch or part of the pouch. And according to this meaning, the correct translation of the text of Livius “funda media duo scutalia imparia habebat” would be: the middle of the sling (that is, the pouch) was formed by two unequal pieces. We would have then a splitted pouch, but unlike the habitual thing, one of the parts would be longer than the other.

I always have interpreted the word “scutale” like pouch, and my first design, based on Bertrand´s one, interpreted the text “funda media duo scutalia imparia habebat” like a sling with two little pouches in its center to attach the dart ends. This design have some problems with the point, that nail the leather of the little pouch and makes necessary a sophisticated design to avoid it, as was seen in the thread. Eventually I thought on the other possible interpretation, very bizarre, a pouch made of two unequal parts or pieces. I made that sling and try to attach the dart to it by the fins, the only possibility to do it. After some castings I knew this design was a success. The inequality of the two “scutalia” allows the attachement so that the longest “scutale” partially surrounds the tail of the dart making it to leave straight, without deviation. The pictures clarify better what I say.

...

The text of Polibius is more generic in the description of the sling, more ambiguous, and it has been translated generally in the sense that the two thongs of the sling were of different length, which have conditioned the translation of Livius text in the same sense. We have to consider that the linguistics and translators are not experts in armament, and not dedicated either to experimental research, reason why they make common or banal interpretations of the ancient weapons they describe.

The sling is simple to make and the pouch is an evolution from a conventional splitted one, that can be used too to cast the cestros but with more oscillation and less control. The ranges are spectacular, 100 or 150 meters can easily be reached depending on the weight of the dart.
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David Morningstar
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #304 - Jan 13th, 2009 at 1:01pm
 
Fantastic news, Hondero! Do you have video yet? What are your length of sling and dart construction details?
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wanderer
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #305 - Jan 15th, 2009 at 8:38am
 
Hondero - that's brilliant.

It seems so darn obvious after the fact.
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DuckofDeath
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #306 - Jan 15th, 2009 at 11:55pm
 
Hondero wrote on Jan 13th, 2009 at 12:11pm:
Past summer I´ve tested the design exhaustively and have found that is the best of all others. It locates the point of attachment of the dart over the fins, like in the Hollenback design.


Earlier you bad-mouthed the Hollenback design when you recreated it. I noticed then that you had the cord touching the leading edge of all three fins. Now it's touching the leading edge of only two fins. Did that make a difference?  
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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #307 - Jan 16th, 2009 at 7:25am
 
Thanks David M. and Wonderer for your interest. The details of construction of the dart according to classic texts are throughout the thread, although darts with other somewhat different measures, slighter and more aerodynamic, can be constructed to get better stability and ranges. I believe that an interpretation of texts does not have to be rigid and we know that the more distance between  the fins and the center of gravity of the dart will be the more stability. As far as the sling, any length can be used, although it is necessary to consider the launching style. If it is underhand it will be necessary to take care the dart does not strike the ground, and the sling will have to be short. I use an average sling normally, of about 80 cm (doubled), with spinning in an inclined plane. Generally, whatever is the launching style, the trajectory will have to be ample so that the dart makes the smaller possible angle with the cords at the time of the casting. It is necessary to get used to cast the cestros, because it is something different to cast a stone.
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« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2009 at 2:49am by Hondero »  

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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #308 - Jan 16th, 2009 at 11:48am
 
DuckofDeath wrote on Jan 15th, 2009 at 11:55pm:
Earlier you bad-mouthed the Hollenback design when you recreated it...



Well pointed out, my friend,  Grin . I must confess that the first time I saw the design of Hollenback, with that short leather tube that is not a pouch, and the whole device  that is not a sling, I was enough irritated. I had the feel that first he had made a device that worked more or less well to cast a dart and after he had tried to handle arbitrary the text of Polibius so to match the device. I could have done the same with my design n. 6 in the Replay 283, that works better than Hollenback n.5, and the ambiguous part of the Polibius text would have match too, but I was sure that mine was not the macedonian design, like also I´m sure it isn´t  the one of Hollenback. If Polibius had wanted to describe this tube to direct the dart I think he could have done with the precise words.

In the case of my last design the process has been the contrary. I looked first for a new interpretation of the Livius text, and found a reasonable one. Then I tested it in spite of being very odd such sling with a splitted asymmetric pouch. But it worked very well. Obviously I realized that apparently the design was based technically on similar bases to Holl. design, which irritated me once more, ha ha.

The design of Holl. have enough operation difficulties, and peculiarly he attributes to this that the cestros was left by the Greeks, but I had the impression that he tries to justify his own difficulties. He says that the design of the fins is very critical, defined by a strict geometric formulation, so that a small variation in its design, imperceptible in view, can cause that the device does not work well. All this seems to me too truculent. In my design that does not happen and the design of the fins admits variations, not being necessary to carefully keep a mysterious template and formula on which to exactly reproduce the fins of all the cestros to be made, as he says it was necessary. These and others personal and arbitrary conjectures don´t give, in my opinion, the necessary scientific validity to the article of Holl.

The difference of Holl. design and mine is not the number of fins that touch the cord. It was an error in the drawing of Replay 283  and the cord also touch only two fins in the design of Hall. I believe that the real difference is based on the damn leather tube, that give very little freedom to the dart and facilitates the jam with the cords, for which Holl must use that precise design of the fins that does not let slip the dart in the spinning, on one hand, and by another not entangle in the casting. In my design, the tail of the dart is placed with  freedom in the loop formed by the branches of the pouch, and these problems of design of the fins doesn´t exist.
Nevertheless, I recognize that Hollenback has made a good approach to the cestros real design by positioning the attachment of the cords on the fins. I think is necessary to continue analyzing  Polibius text under the perspective of different designs.
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Thomas
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #309 - Jan 16th, 2009 at 1:56pm
 
Hondero

This newest proposal will allow a relatively high rate of fire. The sideways/to rotation position of the dart is the most practical real world approach and allows more latitude of style. Proper cord design combined with balance are the key ingredients that makes this work, also a slight disregard for the law of momentum which states, an object released from an arced (arcuate) path must continue on at 90 degrees to the release point. For our purposes, HOGWASH, if in the absence of air resistance the outstretched retention cord in its arc would follow and pass the line of flight of a tumbling dart. This scenario is cut short by air resistance, hence our sling slows after release and darts go out quickly reoriented to a very slightly less distance but deadly to be sure.

Here is a related thread.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1105387499/0


tom            
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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #310 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 1:10pm
 
Thomas wrote on Jan 16th, 2009 at 1:56pm:
Proper cord design combined with balance are the key ingredients that makes this work...

An object released from an arced (arcuate) path must continue on at 90 degrees to the release point....
tom            



Hi Thomas,

You are right,  it is very important the contact surface between fin and cord to be enough so that they do not nail and make a tangle at snap. For that reason the cord must be of some width (or a leather strip) and the fin not to be too thin although light (to be reject metallic fins).

About physics of the casting, as you say, it was spoken enough in the link you point out. Btw,I know that the drawing at the starting of the thread is not  correct as it was a simplification so that the idea was understood easily. In fact, as we said at the time, the throwing trajectory is not exactly circular but spiral. In addition, the dart goes delayed with respect to the hand, reason why when the release takes place, although it leaves tangential to the trajectory, it moves towards the target. Certain that initially it leaves somewhat crossed with respect to his movement towards the target, but because the center of gravity is near the point it is reoriented immediately.
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« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2009 at 2:28am by Hondero »  

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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #311 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 8:42pm
 
Well congratulations, Hondero, you persistent scholar!  I say you've solved the Cestros riddle!!  This for two reason: 

1/ It's a simple adaption of the basic sling design.   Some ancient soldier with a split-pocket sling probably was messing around and figured out that he could launch heavy hand-darts with his sling.  Bet that made him a real celebrity around the camp.

2/ It works.

I'm glad I stopped in just at the right time to see you do this.

The Cestros mystery seems to be one of the last to be solved of all the slinging mysteries tackled years ago when this forum was young.    Seems like now we've got sling design and construction figured out.  Also, how to use the things.

One last mystery is how very light elliptical glands were used; the ones under 15-20gm in weight.

Again, congratulations, and best wishes always!

MikeG
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Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #312 - Jan 18th, 2009 at 7:32am
 
Mgreenfield, old friend! , I am glad too to see you here again and that you follow so enthusiastic as ever. I remember the first times here, with those good guys like Whipartist, David-T, Yurek, Johnny, etc. Those were good times but the old rockers never die and is a pleasure to meet them from time to time. Thanks for your opinions on the new design of the cestros, although I would not surprise if somebody find another new design also effective. The great mysteries usually are ageless.

Another riddle is that of little glands, indeed. Why don´t you restart the topic? I promise some comments and perhaps somebody has experimented with them.

Salud,
Hondero
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #313 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 6:15pm
 
hmm. that looks like, it would possibly have greater ranges than a bow and arrow! As long as the arrow is heavy enough. does anyone think so?????????
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Re: Cestrosphendone
Reply #314 - Jan 22nd, 2009 at 1:39am
 
Please keep the research up!

I am considering commissioning a friend of mine who makes beautiful hand made arrows to make darts for me. I need to construct that form of sling however.

On that note feel free to send me the dimensions and specs for any dart design you might come up with. He is rather talented in this field, so I am sure he would make something flight worthy.

-Unsapien
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