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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
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Message started by Gemwise on Sep 28th, 2020 at 10:32am

Title: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Gemwise on Sep 28th, 2020 at 10:32am
I am currently writing a historical or perhaps I should say, a prehistorical novel set in the Aurignacian Period in France.á 40-23,000 years back.á

Slings are made of organic/perishable materials and as far as I know the closest thing that can be found from say 20,000 years ago to indicate even the existence of artifacts like woven cords are impressions in clay.á On the other hand, shaped missiles might be found though I know of no examples.

By the time modern humans entered Europe (45-50,000) years ago, our species had been around for perhaps 180,000 years.á Based on the sophistication of the cave paintings at Chauvet Cave, it seems to me that they were far more technologically advanced than can be proven from artifacts alone.á

I'd be appreciative of your comments.á

Richardáá

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Sarosh on Sep 28th, 2020 at 11:15am
probably before archery, or after any kind of cordage, knitting,weaving,braiding or leather work evidence.
So +65,000(65k-2m) years? there is no clear evidence that I know of.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Bill Skinner on Sep 28th, 2020 at 5:51pm
I believe we had some French archies come on here asking questions about shaped chalk projectiles from around 35,000 years ago that were suspected sling stones.  They were on the edge of a prehistoric march or swamp that had silted in.

Consensus was probably sling stones used for hunting waterfowl of some type.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Bill Skinner on Sep 28th, 2020 at 6:23pm
There are a number of articles that have dates from the Bronze age to historic, but I wasn't able to find one that says anything with proof.  Like a cave drawing or something like that. 

Mauro had a professor that said the dots on some of the cave drawing represented stones hitting the animal and that the sling could be possible as much as 80K years old.  Problem is that it's a theory, others say those dots represent spear or dart  damage or hits.   

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 29th, 2020 at 1:43am
It's 3 500 years for shaped chalk projectiles. Not 35 000.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 29th, 2020 at 1:48am
https://www.inrap.fr/en/millennial-footprints-normandy-13107
The link in english.
During the paleolithic, the hunted animals are big. So, I don't believe that the sling is good for hunting. Just my idea.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kick on Sep 29th, 2020 at 6:13am
Birds are perfect targets for slinging though. They weren't just eating mammoth burgers.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Sep 29th, 2020 at 7:18am
Agree with you  :)
But there is no archaeological evidence to my knowledge.
After, why not for a novel ; it's a choice.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Gemwise on Oct 1st, 2020 at 12:26pm
Thanks all!  The great thing about a novel is that historical accuracy is...optional!  However, trying my best.  As I mention in my introductory post, I am considering the possibility that "thong-throwing" as described in  Primitive Technology:  A Book of Earth Skills (1999) which sounds to me like a slightly more primitive form of slinging, might be the way to go.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Oct 2nd, 2020 at 5:25am
We are glad to help you :)
And keep us posted.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Slyngorm on Oct 12th, 2020 at 4:20pm
Ripped straight from wikipedia, but:

The sling is believed to have been invented in the upper paleolithic probably around the same time as the atlatl.
The very oldest surviving sling is from 2500 bc in Peru.
The oldest from the old world was from around 1325, found in the tomb of Tutankhamon.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Caldou on Nov 8th, 2020 at 8:31am
The first picture of a slinger (that I know of) if from šatal H÷yŘk, 7000 BC.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Slyngorm on Nov 17th, 2020 at 11:12am
That sounds very interesting.
Catal H÷yŘk is a very interesting site.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kilisi on Nov 20th, 2020 at 11:51am
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that prehumans were slinging.

They were manufacturing spheroids of a good size for it and no one knows why. I reckon they were sling stones. So well over 2million years ago.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Nov 21st, 2020 at 5:39am
They made also big sphero´ds.
All ideas are good.
I can say for example, that these sphero´ds would be the symbol of the egg of the "great" bird, the mother of humanity. But for us, slingstones are cool.  ;)

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Nov 21st, 2020 at 7:38am
More seriously. Here's a link to an article about these sphero´ds.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30614

Sometimes difficult but really interesting.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kilisi on Nov 22nd, 2020 at 6:42pm

TOMBELAINE wrote on Nov 21st, 2020 at 7:38am:
More seriously. Here's a link to an article about these sphero´ds.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30614

Sometimes difficult but really interesting.

Yep, throwing projectiles is the only thing that makes sense. So I'm happy to say they were sling stones. If they're smart enough to manufacture these, then they're smart enough to twist some grass or use a strip of skin and make a simple sling.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kick on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 3:30am
It's a little hard to see exactly how heavy the stones they were looking at are but they seem to be ranging from 0.2kg up to something around 2.2kg. I think it would be pretty difficult to sling 2.2kg and a lot of those stones are pretty heavy for slinging in my opinion but some are right around the size I would use. One thing that I think is very interesting is that the stones thrown by hand were calculated to be disabling against an impala-like animal. That's one stone being thrown by one person. They were easily killing them then with multiple people and multiple stones. Really shows how effective a stone can be and great that they were able to quantify it. A very useful little equation that we could implement for stones we know are being slung. If they did have slings and were using these stones (which to my mind is absolutely possible, I mean they were intelligent enough to specifically seek out and transport these stones from another area for a specific purpose and they were using various other tools) then there is no question that they were very effective hunters. Stones really are no joke.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kilisi on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 3:43am

Kick wrote on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 3:30am:
It's a little hard to see exactly how heavy the stones they were looking at are but they seem to be ranging from 0.2kg up to something around 2.2kg.

Three things to think about, firstly a lot were an inch to 11/2 inches around.
Secondly prehumans were a LOT stronger than modern humans. Something people always seem to forget.
Lastly these primates would have had incredibly strong and dextrous shoulders and arms, they were made differently from us. Their sense of balance likewise.

So I've gone ahead and convinced myself and will now tell everyone as if it's established scientific fact :-)

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kick on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 3:56am
Those are good points. I'm really pretty small and weak to be honest so I am one hundred percent sure they could out throw me even if I had a sling and they didn't :D

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kilisi on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 4:01am

Kick wrote on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 3:56am:
Those are good points. I'm really pretty small and weak to be honest so I am one hundred percent sure they could out throw me even if I had a sling and they didn't

Me and you both... plus I'm old as heck.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 10:57am
I think I found the olders trace of a sling. :D

But more seriously. Just a band of leather. This hypothesis needs a silex to cut the leather and a hunted animal. It's all.
Thank you Kilisi for your photo.  :)
sacky_001.jpg (71 KB | 0 )

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kilisi on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 11:06am

TOMBELAINE wrote on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 10:57am:
I think I found the olders trace of a sling.

But more seriously. Just a band of leather. This hypothesis needs a silex to cut the leather and a hunted animal. It's all.
Thank you Kilisi for your photo.á

Ahaha... I've been playing with my video editor, here's a short clip tutorial of that sling throwing a big stone. https://youtu.be/mqu-plfFFj4

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by TOMBELAINE on Nov 24th, 2020 at 3:04am
Sorry, I realize that I used a french word in my post.
Silex is flint.
With a knife of flint, the cavemen could make a sling with the leather. It's a very easy technology.
I don't test in the true life and the archeologists don't find these artefacts.
So we don't know.
But I like this idea.

Title: Re: Slinging, The Oldest Evidence?
Post by Kilisi on Nov 24th, 2020 at 3:36am

TOMBELAINE wrote on Nov 24th, 2020 at 3:04am:
Sorry, I realize that I used a french word in my post.
Silex is flint.

Merci beaucoup, je ne suis pas comptant a la langue... un petit peu seulement

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