(Asking for a friend)

Two questions:
A) Is there a name for a split pouch sling with an all-leather pouch?
2. For those who don’t like the split pouch... why?  Is it only about ammo falling out of the pouch and flying dangerously in any direction? Or is there some other reason people prefer solid pouches?

I think the only logical reason to use a split pouch is when using larger ammo. I made a split pouch to throw tennis balls.

I’ve used split pouches with tennis balls too, but I’ve also seen people say that split pouches don’t play nice with balls and that you need to use rocks.

Personally I don’t see a huge difference between split pouches and properly sized cupped pouches with tennis balls, but I’m pretty new to using split pouches. The main difference I see so far is that a cupped pouch has slightly better retention of the ammo.

   I like split pouch slings because of their versatility.  You can throw many different sized and shaped projectiles with the same sling.  I never have a problem with ammo falling out prematurely. The Rockman is one of my favorite sling designs. 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with split pouches as long as you choose the right ammo. Even spherical ammo can be be used if the pouch is the right fit.

I believe the Balearic-type split-pouch is the best design for throwing stones. It will effectively hold any proper sized stone, and stones almost never get hung up on release.
I would only really use a full-pouch if I was throwing small projectiles or glandes.

I think the main criticism of the split-pouches is that projectiles may fall out more easily, but I only really had this problem when I was just starting out. To me, the benefits greatly out-way the downsides.

Ok... so is there a name for the split pouch sling where the pouch is made entirely out of leather?  I’ve seen them on here occasionally (and made a few myself), but they don’t seem to have a specific name or origin.

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Sep 7^th, 2020 at 12:53am:

the split pouch sling where the pouch is made entirely out of leather

Can you link an example of this?

I've used a cupped pouch way more than a split pouch, but I use spherical projectiles much more often as well.  In my experience, a cupped pouch holds spherical projectiles much better.  If your projectile has a center of mass that is closer to the pouch, then a split pouch works very well.  I have used split pouches for ice balls, and have had them come out early during the throw.  Admittedly it was likely my technique that was the issue, and could be corrected with more practice.

joe_meadmaker wrote on Sep 7^th, 2020 at 1:48am:

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Sep 7th, 2020 at 12:53am: the split pouch sling where the pouch is made entirely out of leather Can you link an example of this?

Sure... I just posted this one in the pictures of slings thread a few days ago.  Here it is again. There are similar ones on the forum from 10+ years ago but I haven’t found a name other than “leather split pouch”

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I gotcha.  I've used a pouch like that several times.  I like them a lot.  But isn't this a leather version of what's referred to (at least recently, not sure about 10 years ago) as the Rockman?  Or does a pouch need to be woven to be a Rockman?

In my opinion this style of pouch behaves much more like a cupped pouch than a split pouch. I definitely get why someone would call it a split pouch.  But because of how the leather overlap is alternated on each side, it does not lay flat.

Hmm... I had a thought. I made a sling like that one once, with the alternating leather overlap design. This keeps the pouch from ever going flat, even upon release - Helping retention, but harming release. Making them not overlap causes them to slide against one another, making it almost impossible to load in the first place, much less retain the shot. I wonder, though, if any of these alternatives would help:

I. If the pouch straps were flexible enough to go flat or even turn inside-out upon release, it might make the release cleaner. I made mine with super-thick leather that would remain cupped after release, which I think may have hindered the projectile.

II. If the pouch straps were suspended independently of one another, maybe they would have more room to open more upon release, like this:

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NooneOfConsequence wrote on Sep 7^th, 2020 at 10:52am:

There are similar ones on the forum from 10+ years ago but I haven’t found a name other than “leather split pouch”

That's called an Aussi pouch. AussiSlinger / Aussi / Ludwik Siedlecki used to give these away for free. May he rest in peace. He made them out of old conveyer belt if I remember correctly.

joe_meadmaker wrote on Sep 7^th, 2020 at 11:13am:

Or does a pouch need to be woven to be a Rockman?

A rockman used to refer to a woven split pouch. The two parts can lay side by side, but can also be crossed over (as in an Aussi). It is named after Rockman / Bruno Tosso, who posted a tutorial a long time ago.
It is a simplified version of an andean sling design.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1270681768
This defines some common terms.

Split pouches are great. And designs like aussie pouch and rockman integrate a solid pouch element which provides advantages of both.

My philosophy is that solid pouch and split pouch slings can both be great designs, but they require you to know what you are doing and build them right for the right ammo. You have to know the limitations and strengths.

Teg wrote on Sep 7^th, 2020 at 2:10pm:

A rockman used to refer to a woven split pouch.

My understanding of the rockman was incorrect.  Thanks for the clarification!

My sling preference is always a split pouch, but I mainly throw inconsistent ammo so I need the ability to switch from stone to stone.

For me it’s never really a problem holding ammo unless it’s clearly too small or big, a solid pouch might solve to too small problem but not the too big. Another issue is polished spheres you are limited to a more specific size, in general I think both designs work and neither is better than the others it’s all preference and practice.

I have cupped pouches that tend to wrap around the rock  or Walnut as you sling   then come back and hit me because  it doesn't release .

As a result of some experimentation, I have recently become quite fond of what I call a 'double-split pouch'. For thin slings where a normal split pouch isn't preferable, it provides good stone retention while still providing a clean release. It also can accept a good variety of stone sizes.

Eudave wrote on Sep 28^th, 2020 at 2:39pm:

I have cupped pouches that tend to wrap around the rock  or Walnut as you sling   then come back and hit me because  it doesn't release .

I recommend to trash these slings immediately. I once overstretched an ellbow because the stone did not release. It's quite dangerous.

Eudave wrote on Sep 28^th, 2020 at 2:39pm:

I have cupped pouches that tend to wrap around the rock  or Walnut as you sling   then come back and hit me because  it doesn't release .

can you upload a picture ? I'm curious
it sounds like some kind of bucket pouch sling

Sarosh, You have made a few Egyptian-type slings - do you think the cupped pouch negatively effects the consistency of your throws?

To me; a split pouch is mainly made for the reason that they are a lot quicker and easier to make than cupped pouches if we’re talking about just making slings from fiber, they certainly work and are a good choice for a rugged shepherd or a speedy skirmisher. But if somebody had leather or something laying around they would probably go for a solid pouch as that would make sling production even faster. I prefer cupped pouches as I tend to sling a certain size anyway. I remember CA posted something about split pouches and his experiences with them being a bit unpredictable, and unfortunately my personal experiences are similarly bad enough to where I’d rather spend the extra time and make a solid one.

Archaic Arms wrote on Sep 29^th, 2020 at 12:02am:

Sarosh, You have made a few Egyptian-type slings - do you think the cupped pouch negatively effects the consistency of your throws?

Somewhat. It feels like it adds delay on release of light stones. I believe it can be compensated. I haven't concluded if it adds or steals energy in any way. I should mention that the egyptian style slings that I made were tightened a lot.

I have a sling with a fairly deep pouch.  As Eudave described, I also once had a misfire with this sling.  There wasn't any injury, but it tweaked my arm a little bit when the projectile didn't release.  I have since stopped using this sling.

It seemed to be fine with large projectiles, so the pouch couldn't form around it.  But with smaller projectiles, no good at all.

I'll get it fixed at some point in the near future.  I'm just going to cut the pouch off and put on a new one that's more flat.

http://beehatmead.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/HempSling-DeepCup.jpg

Early in my slinging career I had the same experience, I’m almost always using the same sling these days , split pouch for me is a great design

I kinda settled in the middle.

For me, too much cupping and the stone tends to touch the rim of the pouch as it releases. That contact basically deflects your shot.
   That being said, too thin of a split pouch does seem to let the stones fall out.
I settled on a "semi-split" pouch modeled after an old member's(Pikaru) design.

It's flat so there's no rim for the stone to catch on but the slit does allow the stone to sink into the pouch a bit.

So perhaps my question is: If you had to vouch, how much couch do you like in your pouch?   :D

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This problem was recognized a long time ago.  Projectiles can really suck themselves into the sling.  There are several solutions to this.  You share the letter.  Or you put many slits in the letter.  The latter can be found at Haithabu and many Nordic slings.  A split letter is the main reason for biconical projectiles.  There is one more method to prevent bulging.  I found it in Tibetan slings.  But also with the cordaillot sling from Switzerland.  This slingshot is very old.  It dates from the 10th century BC.  The principle is simple.  Leave a thick thread in the middle of the letter fabric.  This very effectively prevents bulging.  But I think this type of sling fires a special projectile.  I've tested that.  It's surprisingly effective.

One of the questions in my mind is what the relative timing is during the release process.  This will have a major impact on how you design your sling.  If the ammo leaves the sling before the release cord is out of the way, then the ammo must exit to one side of the release cord, possibly pushing the cord out of the way and interfering with the shot.

If the release cord opens up faster than the ammo rolls out, then the ammo can exit straight out of the open pouch without interference. 

If the ammo rolls off to one side of the cord, your sling pouch geometry matters a lot.  The more the ammo moves to the side, the more it impacts your accuracy.  You can adjust your aim to compensate, of course, but if you change the pouch shape, you also have to change your aim compensation. 

If, on the other hand, the pouch and cord both move out of the way first, then the shape of the pouch does not matter as much, and you could throw exactly the same way with different sling designs. 

It's possible that both situations occur at different times, depending on how fast you are throwing, how heavy the ammo is, how much friction there is between the ammo and the pouch, and air resistance on the release cord... but then again, it's also possible that the ammo always releases to the side?  The straight rib along the Cordailot sling suggests that the release cord moves out of the way, but we've all had situations where the cord hangs up and throws off a shot too.

This is yet another one of those investigations I haven't had time to really investigate... and yet another question that a robo-slinger could help to answer... some day.

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I believe it leaves perpendicular to the release cord. Or at least on an angle

I think it may depend on the throw.  But I know my own throws have contact with the release cord.

I have a black walnut tree in my yard.  Once they fall to the ground, I just sling them out into the brush.  Autumn has arrived and I actually did this yesterday.  If you're not familiar with a black walnut, underneath the outer shell is this black tar-like stuff that stains everything like crazy.  When slinging, some of them always break open a little bit and leave that black stuff on the release cord of the sling.

Here's one of my slings that I've used for this.  You can see the cordage is stained where the black walnuts push passed the release cord.  This is another reason that I would love to get a high speed camera one of these days.  I'd like to see some close-up, slow motion videos of the release.

http://beehatmead.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Sling-BlackWalnutStain.jpg

Joe, totally off topic. If you ever have animal skins, apparently walnut husks have ~20% tannin content. Tannins can be used to tan hides. I've used oak bark and ponderosa pine. Oak is really strong and it is only around 10-15% tannin content.

Also, I'm going to use my wife's Pixel 3a and a bluetooth remote tomorrow to shoot some 240 fps video from overhead and hopefully of the release from different directions. Some of David's footage shows quite a bit of contact. If you haven't seen them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJjFK68mn0w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDTO1VYoMXw

Didn't know that about the walnut husks.  That's not something I've ever done before, but maybe someday.

Thanks for linking David's videos.  I've watched a number of his videos but hadn't seen those ones.  That's kind of what I was expecting to see.  A roll off the release cord until it's pushed out of the way.

Also, it looks like David's channel has a bunch of videos from Mallorca that were posted a couple weeks ago.  Just mentioning in case anyone want to check them out.  It looks like a bunch of short clips.

I'm in one of those clips :D

Kick wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2020 at 3:35pm:

I'm in one of those clips :D

I saw that! :thumb:

Kick, you're just racking up those claims to fame!

Like I said in the other comment, you just have to find a niche enough hobby and you'll climb the ranks in no time  ;)

  I like split pouches the best  . I have tried many others but find that the split pouch wilo fit a variety of shapes and sizes  , and tends to release far cleaner than anything else.
     due to the way they are made they are very easie to adjust ,make them about six inches long and then adjust to desired length
  keep the attatchment holes large and even,  and leave the cord loose in them to establish equilibrem .    At least ,these are my thoughts and experience .

I try making the odd solid pouch sling, but always end up making more split pouch ones after just because they're so versatile. I frequently put a net in the centre of my pouches as well; that way there's zero chance of ammo slipping through (not that it ever happens anyway if you load your sling correctly) but it still cradles like a split pouch! All the safety of a solid pouch with the versatility of a split pouch.

@ Geronimo

please post a pic showing the net in a split pouch.

Eudave wrote on Oct 19^th, 2020 at 2:03pm:

I like split pouches the best  . I have tried many others but find that the split pouch wilo fit a variety of shapes and sizes  , and tends to release far cleaner than anything else.      due to the way they are made they are very easie to adjust ,make them about six inches long and then adjust to desired length   keep the attatchment holes large and even,  and leave the cord loose in them to establish equilibrem .    At least ,these are my thoughts and experience .

What do you mean about adjusting them to length?  Is this during the manufacture of the sling? or afterwards? If you have a design to change the pouch size after the sling is made, I'd love to see it.

I have to admit that split pouches seeem to work better for me , I dont like the cupped ones
I was slinging with a new white para cord sling and found something interesting .
   I was using black walnuts  in the husk and discovered that they were leavin a brown mark on th release cord about two thirds of the way up .
   The cord was not getting out of the way fast enough .I am working with that now to find out why ?  Any insites would be gratefully received

Do you have a large tassle on the release cord? Tassles slow down the cord so could be leaving it in the way of the walnuts. Tapering the cords and maybe making a larger knot can help it get out of the way faster.

Eudave wrote on Nov 12^th, 2020 at 2:15pm:

I have to admit that split pouches seeem to work better for me , I dont like the cupped ones I was slinging with a new white para cord sling and found something interesting .    I was using black walnuts  in the husk and discovered that they were leavin a brown mark on th release cord about two thirds of the way up .    The cord was not getting out of the way fast enough .I am working with that now to find out why ?  Any insites would be gratefully received

I think this is universally true for slings. The amount of contact with the release cord depends on design, as mentioned by Kick.  We've had a lot of discussion about that subject this year.

This video shows a good example, which is apparently rather extreme in the amount of contact, because the release cord was very stiff, but you can see the physics of what is happening. A lighter release cord could get out of the way faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJjFK68mn0w

This second video has much less contact on release.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvidIcGUXkQ

If you didn't already know, if you pause the video and hit "<" and ">" you can go frame by frame. Its a very instructive way of watching youtube.