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Message started by jauke on Jul 28th, 2020 at 12:38pm

Title: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 28th, 2020 at 12:38pm
This problem has been solved

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Morphy on Jul 28th, 2020 at 1:39pm
The solution is to use the same style each time, become consistent with it and make sure the spin you are getting is perfectly rifled. Iíve seen no problem with them. I can assure you a high degree of  accuracy is possible with cords at least as thin as paracord. No need for massive cords if you choose not to use them.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Sarosh on Jul 28th, 2020 at 2:19pm
yes that is another reason you cant go too long on the cords , there is little torsion resistance.
I'm trying to figure things out because I made a paracord sling and I get angles of attack more random than the tightly braided natural fiber slings. Maybe if I improve in the paracord low torsion then it will benefit my control with the better torsion slings.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 28th, 2020 at 3:53pm
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Sarosh on Jul 28th, 2020 at 4:25pm
you'll have to find the mean and that is personal. I like thin tightly braided split pouches, right now it's the best choice for me for performance ,accuracy , lifetime. I want more lifetime(thicker) but that would get in the way of the other two and that I dont like, I'm performance over lifetime. I had slings that lasted a month and that didnt bother me because they were performing good and others that lasted many more shots but didn't like them and used them for tossing around very abrasive ammo or for warm ups.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by kairo on Jul 28th, 2020 at 4:39pm
What problems with controlling the rotational axis did you encounter more specifically? My current sling is very thin and light, too. However my only problems were that the stones flipped out during windup from time to time.

You could try wrapping the sling's coords tightly with another fine yarn, by that they get more stiff just like wire, while staying light.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Albion Slinger on Jul 28th, 2020 at 11:08pm
My solution to this problem was to shorten my slings considerably so that I can have relatively thick, stable cords. Because I believe you are bio-mechanically limited to how fast you can throw with short slings, you can make them thicker without losing power for the most part. I still make my slings a lot lighter than Luis's though, as they are designed for a giant!

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Captain_Twine on Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:30am
So, the issue here is that thin, light cords tend to not stay in place as well (i.e., twist) and that affects retention? Because I've been using rather thin slings recently, and I've notice some twisting as well (Though I'm not sure how it's affecting my slinging.)

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 29th, 2020 at 7:02am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 29th, 2020 at 8:25am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 29th, 2020 at 8:49am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:00am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 29th, 2020 at 11:01am
Again it also makes obvious why Balearics use such stiff cords, a stiffer cords translates to better control over how the pouch turns. They've optimized their slings for that.
And as a result the range of the Balearic slingers is lacking compared to other slingers, but consistent accuracy at shorter ranges is higher.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Sarosh on Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:33pm

J wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am:
I ordered some 20mm and 30mm steel balls so I can do better range testing with Y-sling soon.


I cant see how you'll be able to differentiate the results you'll get from y vs traditional slings using steel BBs.  steel bbs are very smooth I expect similar release friction from both designs, spin orientation will have very little impact on trajectory because of the smooth spherical shape and the high density.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:36pm

J wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am:
It's almost scary because what he is saying is totally in line with my thinking. And I am definitely not trying to troll anybody.


Oh come on Jauke!  A little bit of trolling never hurt anyone.  You should try it some time :)

I can't agree with his "I don't want to play with you guys anymore" approach, but before he went back to his little sandbox yesterday, Jaegoor was right that a lot of the same topics come up on here again and again.  When the technical topics get recycled, it's the people who keep the forum interesting.   I personally enjoy a little bit of unserious banter as long as it's all in good fun and you make it fairly obvious when you are joking and when you are not.  That's where RS and Apex went wrong.  We couldn't tell when they were genuinely contributing and when they were not.  That's just annoying. 

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Sarosh on Jul 29th, 2020 at 1:39pm

Apex-apoc wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 1:30pm:
And with a ball of tungsten (heavy metall class 4 - 18,5 g/cm3 - diameter = 17,51 mm, same wight = 52 g) Larry Bray's record would have been minimum 808 m!

That can be calculated (online) here: http://www.schuetzenverein-ettenheim.de/sportschiessen/ballistikrechner.php


112m/s @40į, flight time 13.4 sec, 808m

and if something I shot reaches over 200m I 'm not able to see where it landed and I lose my ammo even at 20m† >:( , that guy is a superhuman with metal detector abilities.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 29th, 2020 at 2:09pm
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Morphy on Jul 29th, 2020 at 2:36pm

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 12:36pm:

J wrote on Jul 29th, 2020 at 10:56am:
It's almost scary because what he is saying is totally in line with my thinking. And I am definitely not trying to troll anybody.


Oh come on Jauke!† A little bit of trolling never hurt anyone.† You should try it some time :)

I can't agree with his "I don't want to play with you guys anymore" approach, but before he went back to his little sandbox yesterday, Jaegoor was right that a lot of the same topics come up on here again and again.† When the technical topics get recycled, it's the people who keep the forum interesting.† †I personally enjoy a little bit of unserious banter as long as it's all in good fun and you make it fairly obvious when you are joking and when you are not.† That's where RS and Apex went wrong.† We couldn't tell when they were genuinely contributing and when they were not.† That's just annoying.†


To be fair I still contend that you are all crazy for questioning any of RSíes stories. It all seemed perfectly legit to me.  ::) :P

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 30th, 2020 at 9:02am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 30th, 2020 at 2:48pm
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 30th, 2020 at 2:59pm
And don't worry, if you can't stand my posts, soon I will 'disappear' from active posting so much and go back to lurking occassionally, as my sling holiday is over within 1 month† and I will be very busy with other things :o These last 2 months I am a little obsessed with slings.


Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Sarosh on Jul 30th, 2020 at 4:32pm

J wrote on Jul 30th, 2020 at 2:48pm:
I think that we just started using biconical ammo because the sling was not optimal.


saying stuff like this makes me wonder if you have ever tried slinging over 100m.


J wrote on Jul 30th, 2020 at 2:48pm:
I also think this is exactly why slings sort of died out or never took off as a sport, because we have been using the wrong slings. There is a reason why the only slinging we see as an olympic sport is hammer throwing. For something to become an olympic sport, the differences in equipment has to be removed. Convential slings are too much subject to internal ballistics caused by build construction that a universal model could never be agreed upon. But I think that target throwing done with simple one-stone bolas with a set-weight for the weight would level the playing field.


I think uniformity kills sports. Javelin was nerfed and it became less technical and less interesting, other throwing sports are also not getting better from the olympics .

Archery on the other hand has been advancing changing adapting for many years on every branch. I think widely practiced/traditional or commercialized sports can get into the olympics and then get simplified for the olympics not the other way around.


Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Mersa on Jul 30th, 2020 at 8:11pm
Iíve found quite the opposite, tapered release cords open faster and the weight should be in the pouch not in the cords. The cords should be low stretch and then the energy quickly transfers into movement.

Biconical ammo is designed for killing, itís sharp and sharp things kill. Itís just a added bonus that it flys further and rolls out of a sling better than a ball.

Title: -
Post by jauke on Jul 31st, 2020 at 3:33am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Mersa on Jul 31st, 2020 at 4:07am
Well itís pretty similar to a whip. Itís a cord, that cord is pulled by the momentum of the cord below it. Half the sling remains as it was during the throw before release the other half is pulled by the tension as it is released.
If I could draw a diagram it could be understood easier but Iíll try.

If the weight/tension on the release cord stays the same between 3 identical release cords but one is tapered one is straight and one is opposite tapered it makes the most sense that a tapered one would open faster. All that opens them is the tension on the cord, so as that tension is pulled straight it moves the fastest on a tapered release. I hope this makes sense without a diagram . Think about a whip and that might help.
Having weight in the pouch is going to pull the release cord.
Hold a regular sling and put tension on the pouch with your hand , let go of the cord and it will open as your still adding tension. The more tension the faster it will open. Or on the other side reduce the overall weight of the release cord.
There is actually more too it and the angles flexibility and elasticity of the cords can change it but as far as I understand it canít open faster with a reverse taper it goes against my understanding of energy transfer.

Title: -
Post by jauke on Jul 31st, 2020 at 4:37am
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biconical.png (521 KB | 1 )

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by JudoP on Jul 31st, 2020 at 5:22am
I also feel adding weight to the end of release cord makes for a very unclean release. Perhaps you can get away using light cords and a light weight at the end but if you made a balearic with reversed taper it would throw horribly. Even adding moderate weight to the end of braided slings has a really poor effect.

Balearic throws clean because when you push the thicker part of the release cord the rest simply whips out of the way. Reverse this and you have a cord which would almost hook on and really interfere with release.

Title: -
Post by jauke on Jul 31st, 2020 at 5:27am
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Title: -
Post by jauke on Jul 31st, 2020 at 5:47am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Morphy on Jul 31st, 2020 at 9:49am
My cleanest throwing sling has been with paracord and a tab at the end. Basically the closest to reverse taper you are likely to see.

I wonder how much it really matters that a release cord is tapered? Is the stone really that likely to contact the end of the cord? I think the only time Iíve had this happen was when using very poor ammo which didnít release cleanly due to the ammo not the sling.

Maybe certain throwing styles and/or set ups are more prone to such problems. To my knowledge it hasnít been a huge issue with my paracord slings.

Come to think of it a stone is a lot more likely to contact the near pouch portion of the cord so wouldnít it make sense to have that as small as possible?

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Jul 31st, 2020 at 12:45pm
The ammo should be out of the pouch after the release cord has moved outward by half the length of the pouch. Itís only a few inches. The mass distribution shouldnít have a huge effect either way. The biggest reason to taper is for that supersonic whip crack.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 31st, 2020 at 1:13pm
I really do advise to buy one of Luis slings. His slings are some of the best

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Jul 31st, 2020 at 1:50pm
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Kick on Aug 1st, 2020 at 4:27am
I've whipped myself pretty hard just with a knot and it can sting like hell.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Mersa on Aug 3rd, 2020 at 4:11am
Thin efficient sling in action!!!



VvvvvvvvvvV
      VvvV
         V

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=928F37B2-DC64-4D33-AE90-8CA214145B32.MOV (6099 KB | 12 )

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Aug 3rd, 2020 at 4:03pm
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by IronGoober on Aug 3rd, 2020 at 5:40pm

J wrote on Aug 3rd, 2020 at 4:03pm:
I understand what you say now Mersa. You are right about a taper hastening a release.
That does not mean that an extremely tapered cord (i.e. very thick a the base) would release quicker than just a straight thin cord (the misunderstanding). And if there's a fluffy end it will slow it down again.
Before I tied a little weight I had a knot. To my mind it felt as if it released quicker with the tiny weight. I added a larger weight and it slowed down again. That means it can't open up quicker with more weight at the end. It is counterintuitive.

But now that I have removed both the weight and the knot it feels as if that gives the quickest release. No knot, no weight, no tab, no fluffy tail. Just the thinnest cord possible


I quite enjoy reading your posts. It's almost like a stream of consciousness.

I was thinking that a weight on the end should impede the sling from opening faster, but I held my tongue in the occasion of you coming back with video evidence proving me wrong :)

Actually, I was thinking that if you had a small weight on the release side of the pouch might help with opening. Because the weight is out at a larger radius in the rotating reference frame (with the same angular velocity), the force on it should be larger, allowing more acceleration and hence the pouch should open faster.  So the balearic sling design may actually be something the helps to open the sling, given it's overall large mass. Of course thin and light should "open" faster.  And I say "open" because it simply means that the sling is out of the way, enough for the projectile to get by. A heavier sling has more inertia and can affect the projectile more by being in contact with it.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Aug 4th, 2020 at 2:22am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Mersa on Aug 5th, 2020 at 7:34pm
I agree IG , Iíve always pondered the idea of a weight on the release side of the pouch to help open the sling but truth be told itís only a thought and Iíve not tryed it in practice

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 6th, 2020 at 8:20am
(Sigh)... I really do need to set up those high speed video experiments.  Iíll add cord mass distribution to the list of experiments to try... some day.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Morphy on Aug 6th, 2020 at 8:27am
Not to be a huge downer but release timing is far less crucial imo than is being made out to be in this thread.

The crucial part of it is consistent release timing. So long as it happens consistently from one shot to the next thatís all that matters for target and perhaps even distance. On a decent throw the stone is already exiting the pouch in a matter of tenths of a second.

That being said Iím a hypocrite  as Iíve considered for years putting a weak elastic cord on the release side of the pouch to flip it open faster. I never did because I canít reason out how that would actually help. Interesting idea though.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 6th, 2020 at 8:48am
By the way, thereís two extremes to consider for pouch opening: one is where the release cord swings outward without bending... opening the pouch like a hinge. That would be the slowest mode of opening the pouch because the entire release cord has to swing 180 degrees to completely open the pouch. The other extreme is where the release cord moves outward, parallel to the retention cord, gliding directly away from the slingerís hand. This rolls the pouch open and is the fastest release because the pouch will be flat after a few inches of motion.

Real slings will do something in between these two behaviors. The pouch rolls open and the release cord also swings away. If a particular weight setup reduces the release cordís outward swing, then it will release faster, but added mass will also slow the acceleration of the cord, so for any particular motion, less mass will open the pouch faster. 

Howís that for a complicated non-answer? ;D

Obviously we need experiments and high speed video to get a real answer.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 6th, 2020 at 8:50am
@Morphy, If you buy into the hinge versus glide model above, it may very well be a source of inconsistency in the release timing if the sling opens differently each time.

(I suspect the slinger is still the most significant factor most of the time though)

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Aug 6th, 2020 at 9:00am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Morphy on Aug 6th, 2020 at 9:00am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Aug 6th, 2020 at 8:50am:
@Morphy, If you buy into the hinge versus glide model above, it may very well be a source of inconsistency in the release timing if the sling opens differently each time.

(I suspect the slinger is still the most significant factor most of the time though)


I agree that ultimately the slinger is the biggest factor. Ammo plays a really big part as well. I remember when I was super serious about target slinging and my handmade concrete ammo would react so much better than even smooth albeit irregular stones. Every shot felt silky smooth with no lag in release. I almost canít bring myself to sling anymore with poor ammo after having slung so consistently with the good stuff.

The other aspect here is a sling stone probably pushes the pouch open as it ejects more than any cord opens it. Obviously this is a bit of a guess on my part but it makes sense.

Title: -
Post by jauke on Aug 6th, 2020 at 9:08am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 6th, 2020 at 9:25am
It also sounds like I need to head on over to the maths section and lay down some proper theory now.

As far as I can tell, most of the last decade+ of math-based conversations boils down to someone using a simplified model of the sling and then other people arguing over whether the model is oversimplified. I think I may have an idea for how to avoid this cycle. Iíll get to work on it in my copious free time.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Sarosh on Aug 6th, 2020 at 10:12am

J wrote on Aug 6th, 2020 at 9:08am:
I don't think the magnus effect will make a ball fly further, it can only make it fly straighter in case of overhand or curve it as the case with sidehand, but the lift it generates caused by the magnus effect is a loss of energy to the projectile.


check out airsoft hop up they seem to get a lot of range from it, not 100% sure if we can transfer it to slings though.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Aug 6th, 2020 at 11:40am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by jauke on Aug 6th, 2020 at 11:53am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by MitchInTheGlatrix on Aug 6th, 2020 at 1:06pm

Quote:
Spheres, no matter how they orientate, provide a uniform front to the air. That's why I think they're the overall superior and more accurate sling projectile in practice.


And simpler to work with!† Though ovoid, bi-conical, and other enlongated variants can be made to fly quite well, employing spin stabilization along the projectile's longitudinal axis.† Sling ammo is much larger than rifle ammo, and tends to spin too fast compared to it's forward speed.† This can be controlled by pocket shape, size, and orientation.† By creating a release system that dramatically lessens pocket contact duration after release, ballistic spin ratios are made more manageable along with vastly increased release consistency and pocket durability.

Though such efforts are admittedly, obssessive.


SpiralGlideReleaseSystem.jpg (140 KB | 4 )

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Mersa on Aug 6th, 2020 at 9:34pm
I like the look of that sling, captive release?? And also a modified pouch with that ring?? I like it, it looks exactly how I pictured it in my head but I never constructed it. Nice!!!

As for spin or no spin , Iíll take spin any day , no spin is for slingshots not slings

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Mersa on Aug 6th, 2020 at 10:17pm
Any videos of that sling in action??

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by MitchInTheGlatrix on Aug 6th, 2020 at 10:34pm
I'll be going through my old folders and if I don't find any, looks like I'll just have to make new ones!

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Sarosh on Aug 7th, 2020 at 3:55am
@ MitchInTheGlatrix

;D awesome sling

Title: -
Post by jauke on Aug 7th, 2020 at 4:51am
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 8th, 2020 at 12:50pm

J wrote on Aug 6th, 2020 at 9:08am:
I don't think the magnus effect will make a ball fly further, it can only make it fly straighter in case of overhand or curve it as the case with sidehand, but the lift it generates caused by the magnus effect is a loss of energy to the projectile.


The magnus effect absolutely makes a ball fly farther if itís generating lift from backspin. It will never fly as far as a ball in a vacuum with no wind resistance but the lift counteracts the wind drag partially.

Title: -
Post by jauke on Aug 8th, 2020 at 1:01pm
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Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 8th, 2020 at 2:29pm
Ok. Iím a little behind.

Title: Re: Problem with thin efficient slings
Post by Mersa on Aug 9th, 2020 at 1:33am
Actually I think it could end up going further on lower release angles, not on the optimal 45ē for a vacuum

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