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Message started by Rat Man on Jun 28th, 2020 at 1:18pm

Title: My First Post
Post by Rat Man on Jun 28th, 2020 at 1:18pm
† †If this isn't my first post, it's the first one from me that I could find.† It's amazing how green and ignorant I was.† I was using only Appu-slings made from leather bootlaces and Apache Style was the only one I knew.† Hey, we all had to start somewhere.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1233159453

There's some interesting input from mrboss in this thread.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by IronGoober on Jun 28th, 2020 at 1:36pm
Wow, Mr. Boss. I remember reading his posts. I don't think he's posted in a long time....Nope. 2011.


Title: Re: My First Post
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jun 28th, 2020 at 2:21pm
That's cool Rat Man.† Although after reading through that topic, I have to ask.† Does anyone remember if Mr. Boss ever showed a video or map of a 300+ yard throw?† That would definitely be a great feat.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Rat Man on Jun 28th, 2020 at 2:36pm

joe_meadmaker wrote on Jun 28th, 2020 at 2:21pm:
That's cool Rat Man.† Although after reading through that topic, I have to ask.† Does anyone remember if Mr. Boss ever showed a video or map of a 300+ yard throw?† That would definitely be a great feat.


Nope.  There were some vids of him slinging.  He used Pirouette style and did have a lot of power, but I don't recall him ever verifying his claim.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jun 28th, 2020 at 3:36pm
Don't agree with how Thomas said the apache is of a most standard and natural form of throw. To me it always felt the most unnatural because of that byzantine posture at the beginning. Now turkey overhand† and general overhand and underhand too do feel a lot more natural.

There is this guy on Youtube who curses a lot and uses piroutte and extremely long slings. I believe he touched 400m with lead

I think a major factor in distance is whether or not you're slinging with or against the wind. Shots with the wind can easily travel a lot further. Same for arrows. I guess in ancient times times it could've been very advantegous if the wind was on your side during times of battle

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by IronGoober on Jun 28th, 2020 at 5:26pm

Jauke wrote on Jun 28th, 2020 at 3:36pm:
Don't agree with how Thomas said the apache is of a most standard and natural form of throw. To me it always felt the most unnatural because of that byzantine posture at the beginning. Now turkey overhand† and general overhand and underhand too do feel a lot more natural.

There is this guy on Youtube who curses a lot and uses piroutte and extremely long slings. I believe he touched 400m with lead

I think a major factor in distance is whether or not you're slinging with or against the wind. Shots with the wind can easily travel a lot further. Same for arrows. I guess in ancient times times it could've been very advantegous if the wind was on your side during times of battle


Yes, I remember him. Problem is you can't see a darn thing in his videos because it is so foggy and windy, and he uses tiny ammo. I do wonder whether or not he really did reach 400m.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Morphy on Jun 28th, 2020 at 5:56pm
He may have gotten them pretty far out there. But without some type of proof all it will ever be is ďmaybeĒ. I tend to think he was getting them pretty far out there.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jun 29th, 2020 at 3:07am
VoloundExpounds and he made a video where he calculated throws at 800m which seems... questionable honestly. I just can't see that happening even with lead and super light and thin slings. I don't know enough at the physics (and I certainly can't speak on the mathematics), but... I don't know. I'm sure he is getting them out there and may well have broken the record, but it's just so hard to verify that I think relying on the maths isn't the most accurate way of knowing. We need to see where they land.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoN4EPpCJtQ

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Mersa on Jun 29th, 2020 at 4:18am
Agreed, his claims are almost doubling actual records.
I dismissed these videos as soon as I watched them.
When it comes to distance slinging I think finding the projectile is a must and also flat ground. Anything less is a guess at best

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jun 29th, 2020 at 9:02am
I could see some of his claims being true slinging with the wind, lead, ultra long thin slings and a sidearm release. He also seems quite tall and flexible.
I believe those heavy beach winds can really carry the projectile 100-200 m further opposed to slinging against in it.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by JudoP on Jun 29th, 2020 at 9:47am
I personally think 800m should be achievable with lead, though certainly at the top end of possibility with a very strong slinger. He doesn't measure 800m but predicts it given the 100m/s speed I believe. The speed calculation isn't shown but if it's legit then 800m range is probably about right. A theoretically perfect projectile at 100m/s would go about 1000m, and from the slinging paper that was circulating a few years back it seemed lead glandes achieved something like 90% of the range of theoretically perfect projectiles. Now, we can't be sure how this relationship scales up to 100m/s but it's probably a fair estimate to say 800m IF you do measure a lead glande at 100m/s. It may even be closer to 900m if the 90% relationship scales.

We also have precedent of Larry Bray hitting 400m+ with a *stone* which is aerodynamically very poor compared to a lead glande and (from memory) achieves only about 50% of the range of an idealised projectile (again according to the slinging paper). I believe that if Bray had done that same throw with a lead glande he would probably have been around the 700-800m mark.

I don't think we can say for sure that 800m is being hit until we see a measured throw. It's also possible or maybe even likely (given the very high results) that his speed calculations are overestimates. However, I don't think the claim can be rejected out of hand, it seems even if his speed measurements are overestimates it's still likely he's hitting over 500m and beating the WR mark. If I saw more about his speed measurement or his speed->distance calculation it could throw more light on how reliable the number of 800m is, but I don't think it's immediately unbelievable.

I'm also taking a lot from the slinging paper, if it turns out that lead only hits 50% more range than stones rather than almost doubling the range, then 800m sounds a lot less viable and would imply significantly higher slinging power than Bray, who for my money is the strongest recorded modern slinger. Having never slung with lead I have no personal experience to compare.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jun 29th, 2020 at 10:17am
mr boss was an interesting kid.
Like all teenagers he already knew everything :-)

Amazing how the older you get the more you realise you don't know.

not sure about 800 metres, but I reckon in his prime, larry bray could have broken 600 if he'd had† a lead glande.
Hell 25 years after his record, I watched him put a golf ball over 400 metres.

At those kinds of distrances, it's almost more about being able to actually find the missile, than achieving the distance :-)†

And like every other person who's claimed such distances as 'normal' mrboss never managed to come up with any kind of evidence.
What a surpise :-)

If you guys want some idle reading - look up 'gronk'.
I'm 90% certain that every single thing he ever said was made up - but somehow he was convincing enough that the 10% still exists lol

I mean if I write down some of the stuff I've done and that's happened to me over the last 50 odd years.
Some of it does stretch credibility :-)

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jun 29th, 2020 at 12:00pm
Has slinging.org become more polite compared to the early days?

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Morphy on Jun 29th, 2020 at 5:04pm

Jauke wrote on Jun 29th, 2020 at 12:00pm:
Has slinging.org become more polite compared to the early days?


Recently, say in the last year or two itís definitely become less weird. I personally like a few interesting characters around to liven things up with random insanity. The last two I really remember were RS and Apex Apoc. Both very interesting characters that I miss lol.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jun 29th, 2020 at 6:02pm
I forgot about Apex-apoc! By god that was an annoying time period. I've got to say, they added colour those particular members, but I also have far fewer headaches these days.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jun 29th, 2020 at 6:18pm
Looking back at his posts I can see why I forgot about him. I could never be bothered to sift through his science word salad so skim read most of them. I do remember his claims and how it was completely physically impossible for him to gain access to any form of recording device so he could actually back up any of his incredible distances. This was particularly interesting to revisit...

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1499008756/180

A very strange man.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by JudoP on Jun 29th, 2020 at 6:18pm

Kick wrote on Jun 29th, 2020 at 6:02pm:
I forgot about Apex-apoc! By god that was an annoying time period. I've got to say, they added colour those particular members, but I also have far fewer headaches these days.


Yes, debating the physics of slinging with that guy was like driving nails into your eyes.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Morphy on Jun 29th, 2020 at 6:55pm
So long as these characters we get from time to time can take the inevitable roasting and/or extreme skepticism without completely losing it I really enjoy their presence. There was one thread with Apoc though that went on...and on...and on. It was like The Walking Dead version of threads. Peaked in the first few pages but refused to die after it had long outlived itís usefulness. Still, what I wouldnít give for RS and Apoc debating the physics of noodle performance these days.

EDIT: I shouldíve looked at the link first Kick. It seems in true zombie form it has risen once more.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jun 29th, 2020 at 8:19pm
It always comes down to not backing stuff up with evidence. RS apparently had the whole history of slingers and there being some sort or archer cult forcing them out in an old book that he was happy to give the name of but... oh where did he put it? Somewhere around here. He'll try and find it next week. Apex couldn't afford to buy a camera or borrow one one from a friend because... well why should the burden of proof be on him!? He was the one claiming easy 700+ throws, but really it was up to us to prove him wrong because maths! Look at all the maths! A picture is worth a thousand words, but Apex could ramble on for page after page after page after page and then quote something mentioned 5 comments back that you thought he had already comented on.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Mersa on Jun 29th, 2020 at 9:45pm
But RS did give us the turkey, for that Iím grateful

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jun 30th, 2020 at 1:19am

Mersa wrote on Jun 29th, 2020 at 9:45pm:
But RS did give us the turkey, for that Iím grateful

This is true. I should get some more practice with it sometime.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by IronGoober on Jun 30th, 2020 at 11:20am
Ok, guys. I remember reading some of his posts, and the sheer aggression of everyone needing him to back up hils claims :P, but the turkey is one that I missed. Link?

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jun 30th, 2020 at 11:48am
Didnt morphy start with the turkey throw

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jun 30th, 2020 at 12:13pm

Jauke wrote on Jun 30th, 2020 at 11:48am:
Didnt morphy start with the turkey throw

No that was RS's creation.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Rat Man on Jun 30th, 2020 at 1:48pm

Jauke wrote on Jun 29th, 2020 at 12:00pm:
Has slinging.org become more polite compared to the early days?

Very much so.  We used to have some real characters.  Some just weren't wrapped very tight.  There was a sheep herder from Iceland... Kuger Slingdog.  He was always spoiling for a fight.  He attacked me on one of my very first threads.  To his credit if you stayed with it long enough he could be made to see reason.  He left slinging.org because he hated America and Americans.  I think I'm the only one who was sorry to see him go. 
    There was another named Connor.  He was an Irish kid I believe.  He liked to use his sling to destroy others' property.  I ended up banning him. After multiple warnings he wouldn't stop attacking another member's religious beliefs. 
  There were many others.  Yes, we were a lot less polite. 

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 1st, 2020 at 2:45am
I remember morphy had videos about the Turkey throw back in the 2013 or 14, long before 2018 when RS joined, he propagated it as a new style he thought of for hunting, holding the rock behind his back with one quick overhand sweep throw. Morphy could you chime in?

Morphy's youtube videos are set to private or deleted, I can no longer find his video where he showed it

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 1st, 2020 at 3:07am
Was just looking at Kicks video to see if he meant the same thing with Turkey throw. Yep RS definitely didn't invent that one

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jul 1st, 2020 at 7:50am
every single thing that rs said was complete and total bollocks !

He even lied about where he lived.

If you think he 'invented' a throw, then it's 100% certain he nicked it from somewhere else - or just plain guessed.
If he ever held a sling in his hands - it was a short term loan from someone else.

I like 'characters' but I don't like people who just plain come out with total fantasy and claim it's gospel.
That kind of thing makes the forum look bad.

I honestly don't know why I let rs stay so long.

Don't remember apoch at all.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Morphy on Jul 1st, 2020 at 8:05am

Jauke wrote on Jul 1st, 2020 at 2:45am:
I remember morphy had videos about the Turkey throw back in the 2013 or 14, long before 2018 when RS joined, he propagated it as a new style he thought of for hunting, holding the rock behind his back with one quick overhand sweep throw. Morphy could you chime in?

Morphy's youtube videos are set to private or deleted, I can no longer find his video where he showed it


Hah! Thatís when you know youíve been here awhile. I had forgotten all about the ďOvershoulderĒ throw. That was the name that we as a forum eventually voted on. Two ways to do it, hold it behind your back if you wish but easier to use a correctly sized sling and just sling it over your shoulder and wait for game. Then itís just a normal throwing move.

I used it to hunt birds that were in large brush piles once. Never actually hit one but it was more proof of concept that it functions in the way I was looking for. Works very well to get the shot off instantly. You can walk with your arm up and the sling behind your back so long as you have a reasonable idea what brush your game is hiding in.

Again though this works better if you donít use your other hand to hold the pouch behind your back. Otherwise it would be really awkward, at least while moving around.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jul 1st, 2020 at 8:40am
I had no idea! I truly thought RS came up with it. Should have guessed he nicked it :D You can see in my video I was finding it very awkward to grab the pouch. I'll try again without holding it.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Mersa on Jul 1st, 2020 at 8:46am
Really!!
Morphy invented the turkey??
Iím even more excited about his calendar entry now!!

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jul 3rd, 2020 at 7:38am

Quote:
gain though this works better if you donít use your other hand to hold the pouch behind your back.


so an apache throw :-)

Also starting a throw with the sling held behind your back is an ancient tibetan technique for using their long slings.

It's how puchi - who grew up herding yaks with her sling, on the family farm in tibet - starts her throws.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGmnXHQxi0E

Not sure where the yak was hiding that makes the noise at the end of that video clip. We were actually slinging at a makeshift target on a coastal gun turret, at the military museum/fort in palma.

The guy in the t-shirt in the background is Uwe (the naked german himself :-)

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Morphy on Jul 3rd, 2020 at 8:26am
Apache throw uses a straight arm trebuchet movement while the Overshoulder has your throwing hand up near your shoulder while the sling hangs back over the shoulder against your back.

Itís a bit different than the Tibetan throw as well since ideally you donít hold the sling and itís an overhand motion instead of a side arm.

Thereís only so many ways to twirl a piece of string so I really doubt I invented anything but if nothing else I started a thread on it. Thereís my very minor claim to fame lol.

Thatís a really interesting throw. I wonder if thatís more of a personal thing or thatís how they all use such long slings?

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jul 4th, 2020 at 10:55am
I've talked about it before, but that video was a revelation. It makes using long slings a piece of cake. I've hurt my shoulder trying to get some momentum into a long sling before, but starting it across the shoulders works like a charm.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Morphy on Jul 4th, 2020 at 2:35pm

Kick wrote on Jul 4th, 2020 at 10:55am:
I've talked about it before, but that video was a revelation. It makes using long slings a piece of cake. I've hurt my shoulder trying to get some momentum into a long sling before, but starting it across the shoulders works like a charm.


So is this Tibets answer to the Greek throw? Really seems like it. Although I must say their representatives are easier on the eyes than any of the other throwers Iíve seen.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Rat Man on Jul 5th, 2020 at 12:40pm

Morphy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2020 at 8:26am:
Thereís only so many ways to twirl a piece of string so I really doubt I invented anything but if nothing else I started a thread on it. Thereís my very minor claim to fame lol.


    People have been slinging since there were people.  Up until very recently in human history the sling was a very important weapon/tool.  Everybody used one.  We are talking countless millions if not billions of slingers over tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of years. 
     In light of all that, a while back after much discussion we decided that we were inventing nothing here. It was a agreed that we were rediscovering these techniques and sling designs. 

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Morphy on Jul 6th, 2020 at 7:16am

Rat Man wrote on Jul 5th, 2020 at 12:40pm:

Morphy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2020 at 8:26am:
Thereís only so many ways to twirl a piece of string so I really doubt I invented anything but if nothing else I started a thread on it. Thereís my very minor claim to fame lol.


† † People have been slinging since there were people.† Up until very recently in human history the sling was a very important weapon/tool.† Everybody used one.† We are talking countless millions if not billions of slingers over tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of years.†
† †† In light of all that, a while back after much discussion we decided that we were inventing nothing here. It was a agreed that we were rediscovering these techniques and sling designs.†


I agree and probably the same is true for primitive bow making even though in some ways it has more variables. That being said, there is one way we as a group can do something in slinging that has never been done. And that is to research it and through scientific testing unravel what makes a good sling, ammo and throwing style. Not opinions but facts. And that is the most exciting part to me since it will rapidly help increase the general skill level of slingers across the world.

Canít wait to see what people are capable of 50 years from now with heavy competition and a very good general understanding of what works best. Assuming society is still here lol.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 7th, 2020 at 1:58am
I too would like to see a discussion on this, to settle once and for all what are the best style of sling.
There are certain requirements to a good sling and a good throw.

I think we can all agree we need a smooth transition from pouch to release cord, or are there people here who think a ''bump'' is needed to send the projectile out earlier?

I think we've been focusing too much on material what the sling is build out of instead of what the sling is shaped like.

Then we can discuss 'how much' pouch is optimal, the optimal width and shape of the release cord, should it be flat like the Balearic slings (more friction spin/less aero) or should it be round like paracord slings (less friction more aero)

And/or is the increased speed from aerodynamic cords enough to make up for less friction so that in the end the friction is still the same? (more speed = more friction)

In the end most of these are micro optimalizations, although some can have a decent effect
My foremost requirement now is a transition from pouch to release cord that is almost indistinguisable
If you want to achieve this with plant fibre it takes a lot of skill and time, as this is what the Balearic sling tries to achieve with their ''belly''.†it can be amateurishly recreated with stitching as well. The all leather sling has the same properties from the get go.

Slings can be made in many shapes and sizes but their basic fundamental operation is based on the same laws, and slings designed to follow these laws will be better slings. There is a type of sling that is optimal for what we consider normal slings (not ''special ultra long slings''† or other specialized slings).

If we can figure this once and for all the sport can become more universally adapted and consistent
Right now so many sling designs, is so chaotic.
What does it result in? New people not knowing what a proper sling is, then going out to cut a piece of leather and tie some cord to it, then make a cringeworthy video (Tod) on youtube showing how to make a sling and then trying to throw with it, getting over a 100k views...

Saying a piece of leather with some paracord tied to it is a sling is like saying a twig with some string is a bow. Technically its correct but there's so much to it to make a good bow other than tying a string to a twig, same with slings.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 7th, 2020 at 9:18am

Jauke wrote on Jul 7th, 2020 at 1:58am:
Right now so many sling designs, is so chaotic.

So would the 'Pictures of Slings' thread be better if we all posted pictures of the exact same sling?† The variety is one of the things I find extremely appealing.



Jauke wrote on Jul 7th, 2020 at 1:58am:
Saying a piece of leather with some paracord tied to it is a sling is like saying a twig with some string is a bow.

I think this is a pretty dismissive comment.† I think a piece of leather and paracord makes a very quick and effective sling.† Will it have a release as clean as some other slings?† Perhaps not.† But that's not to say that it doesn't work well.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Kick on Jul 7th, 2020 at 3:55pm
If it sends a rock in vaguely the right direction it gets a pass from me. I like the acronym KISS; Keep It Simple Stupid :D One the slings I have the most fun throwing is the super long, one-piece knotted paracord sling. I made it in about 5 minutes and it can send a tennis ball reliably downrange for the dogs to chase.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 7th, 2020 at 4:04pm
Joe, look at archery, they have figured it all out what makes a good bow, and† yet there is still plenty of diversity and variation in archery design.

Similarily there can still be huge variation in sling cosmetics, even if they all share the same basic characteristics that make a good sling.

Knots between pouch and release cords, folded leather,† cupped pouches, do not make good slings, I am now confident in stating this.† Obviously I am talking about portrusions here, that get in the way of a good release.

I do not judge anyone who still makes sling that way - I did for a very long time. It was only until recently that I put more thought into slings that I came to understand how they work.† And once I did I couldn't help but cringe at so many slings, including the vast majority of my own! It has shown the amateuristic nature of this sport, I wish others would've plainly said to me right in the face that my slings were wrong, impropre or simply shit. Jaegoor did exactly this (although not as rude.)
It's what got me motivated and opened my eyes to learn more about slings. Pampering isn't good for the sport, we need to tell it as it is.† ;)

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 7th, 2020 at 5:01pm
Don't get me wrong, there are times when a simple, crude slings are justified, absolutely
Times when you need a sling in a pinch, or when you are very limited in building material.

Just like there are times when an untillered stick with a string tied to it is justified to serve as a bow.

But to use crude slings for years and years, is not a good sport.

it is a sign of lazyness, incompetence or ignorance (and yes, I am projecting heavily)
and to even promote them, is even worse (I am fully guilty of this)

I like the analogy to bows. An untillered stick is the equivalent of a crude sling, while a proper tillered bow is a well build, well thought out sling.

If you go through the historical databases, you find a lot of crude slings from past cultures, this is understandable, as the sling was not the main for many peoples, but as a secondary. But among more sophisticated cultures that emphasized slings, like shepherds, the Balearics or Incas, you find see refinement of the sling. Certain universal characteristics that make a good sling.
These we need to define clearly.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Morphy on Jul 7th, 2020 at 8:28pm

Jauke wrote on Jul 7th, 2020 at 4:04pm:
.

Knots between pouch and release cords, folded leather,† cupped pouches, do not make good slings, I am now confident in stating this.†)


What do you mean by folded leather?

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 8th, 2020 at 4:01am
Any fold that creates a portrusion between pouch and release cord.
it's like a putting a cement block on a runway that an airplane has to take off from
The end result is not as drastic with the sling but you get the gist

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Mersa on Jul 8th, 2020 at 7:27am
A perfect bow will not shoot crap arrows as well as a ďnot so perfect bowĒ shoots perfect arrows, I think the same is true for a sling. You can overcome sling flaws if the ammo is really good/consistent. Not that I find any of my slings all that bad.

My personal sling is a ďimperfectĒ design by your standards but I find it the most accurate and efficient sling Iíve ever used.
It might be that you are trying to fix a problem others donít have?



Title: Re: My First Post
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 8th, 2020 at 8:27am
@Jauke - I get your point.† But I think what makes for good sling characteristics is very dependent on the situation.† A couple examples.† A few weeks ago I got some 425 paracord to try out (after getting a sling from NOC which was made with it).† I hadn't seen the stuff before.† When the paracord arrived I quickly put together a simple pouch and tied on the cords.† Not only did the sling work well, it was ideal because it was made it about 20 minutes and I was trying to get a feel for the cord.

And on the topic of the poor cupped pouch that gets so much criticism.† I think almost everyone is aware that my usual projectile of choice is an ice ball.† They're quick and easy to make, and you don't have to gather them up after slinging.† But they are also completely round (more or less), hard, and have a diameter of about 2.5 in. (6.3 cm).† I haven't had the best of luck in keeping them seated with balearic and other split pouch slings.† I've lost them during the rotor, and also when going into my throwing motion.† With a cupped pouch, that ice ball isn't going anywhere until it's released.† If that means that release isn't quite as clean as it could be, I'll take that trade off.† I think this characteristic also makes cupped pouches good for beginners.

I think Mersa brings up some good points.† In the search to find a sling that's good, there are other variables to consider than the sling itself.† Imagine if at some point a sling is made and it is "perfect".† As soon as you change the slinger, the environment, the projectile, or the distance, that sling may not be perfect anymore.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 8th, 2020 at 10:29am
A sling made to sling ice balls is a rather specialist sling.

Of course it is justified to make simple slings in a pinch when you need to.
You can even use it your whole life time for all I care
But it's not right to call it just as good as any of the more well thought-out slings.

The regular sling is meant to throw river rocks, clay balls and glandes, and lead glandes. Aside from that we also like them to throw tennisballs and golfballs for recreation.
A normal sling with the right characteristics can sling all of these equally well.
It doesn't matter what environment it is in, in Mexico or Russia. The basic laws of the sling apply everywhere.

As long as your 'pouch' is long enough than having a knot somewhere on the release cord won't matter, then the shot too will be thrown cleanly without interference.

There is only a certain amount of pouch and or release cord the stone uses.
I don't like differentiating the two as two seperate entities, they are part of each other (release cord and pouch.)

If a portrusion is too near, the projectile will touch it and possibly foul the shot.
This isn't up to debate, it's how the sling works
Now whether it is significant enough for you to care, is up to you.
I personally find it unacceptable, the sling is already so simple, it shouldn't be made with such errors, especially in times of peace.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 8th, 2020 at 11:27am
This part is the runway of the sling
It doesn't mean it always uses all of it, far from it
But still it is best if this part is totally even
It can be course like fibre or leather to provide grip, like asphalt does to wheels
But a good road is free from obstructions

And one cannot say this sling works on different principles than your simple paracord slings.
Your simple paracord slings work exactly by the same laws as slings like this, unless you would be using an Y-sling of some sort, and even then, to a degree.

So if your paracord slings have bumps, knots, folds on the runway, it is suboptimal.
This is why I no longer use PJs, sheep shanks, rockmans,†capt. paul, aussie pouches, or seatbelt sling, they all suffer from this design fault, mine sure did.
You can practice it away, even convince yourself it's the best, but nonetheless, the error is there. It has no use to deny this. Of course you are free to keep using these slings with the desing fault inherent to it, if you are comfortable with it, I cannot however after learning this. Unless I would one day be forced to make one in a pinch.

Of course for specialist slings for things like ice, darts, what not, things are different.
Ice, being so slippery, has little friction, thus it can still release well even with a cupped pouch.

There's no nice way to put it. My sling stash underwent serious reordering.


Credit to the original owner
runway.png (378 KB | 0 )

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 8th, 2020 at 2:52pm
The slings I use for ice are definitely designed for that, meaning a spherical projectile of (what I would consider) medium weight.

A question on something you said.† You stated that a normal sling with the right characteristics would be able to throw all the listed projectiles equally well.† The biggest difference in the list of projectiles would probably be the lead glande and the tennis ball.† I don't disagree that there could be a sling that throws these equally well.† But these objects are quite different in size, weight, and shape.† Doesn't it make sense that there could be adjustments made to the sling which would make it more efficient with one of these projectiles, but in turn would make it less efficient with the other?† Sort of a "jack of all trades, master of none" sling.

And when I mentioned environment, I wasn't referring to countries.† I was talking about immediate surroundings.† An example of this is when we were doing the indoor challenges.† For several of them I used a smaller sling because of limited space.† Many of the slings I use outside just wouldn't have been an option.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 8th, 2020 at 3:06pm
The general sling that we use and know is meant to throw river stone, which makes it already a jack of all trade sling, since no stone is truly alike.

However, if it can throw a range of river stones, it should also be able to throw tennisballs, golf balls, clay and lead, since all of these share charactistics with the river stone, they can roll and they are of size that fit.

One could go as far as excludi of being able to throw spheres like golf balls and tennisballs, since these two are unnatural objects and the sphere is not the ideal projectile for the friction sling.
Excluding these two would make the sling a little more efficient towards purely stones, lead or clay glande.

But we still like to use these in this day and age, so I include it in my list of requirements.
what do spheres need: a stiffer pouch and not too big of a slit. If we exclude these requirements, the sling would become more efficient.

But if the sling can sling spheres, it will also more readily retain other shapes as well.
So the ability to sling spheres may just be a happy byproduct of seeking better retention for stones, clay and lead.

My totally flat pouched leather slings retain golf balls very well, but not any more than it needs, due to the slit.

As to immediate surroundings, the length of the sling is a different subject, it can be varied and changed but it won't change the way a projectile is released (maybe the angle, speed, but not the 'way', I hope you understand.) I agree different lengths for different environents are great.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 8th, 2020 at 7:47pm
Thanks Jauke!† And sorry, didn't mean to bombard you like that.† I still don't entirely agree with everything you're saying, but I think you have some good ideas.† Look forward to continue seeing what you come up with.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by JudoP on Jul 9th, 2020 at 9:45am
I don't think knots connecting to the pouch or things like this are necessarily an issue. They can still release very cleanly especially with much lighter release cords than some traditional slings. A knot or some leather protrusions isn't a massive issue if there is literally only grams of inertia behind them.

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Mersa on Jul 9th, 2020 at 7:02pm
Must be why I like my dyneema slings so much

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 10th, 2020 at 1:13am
as long as its as flat as you can get it
and if you don't want your release cord to be part of the runway in any way shape or form
then simply the pouch must be long enough so the projectile has enough space without interference of portrusions
How long this is depends, the pouch does not have to be symmetric

What bothers me are slings so poorly constructed that the stone is seated firmly
like some amateur folded seatbelt slings that have the side ends folded in to where the stone sits, or with leather
if they would understand how a sling releases they wouldn't build it that way, those who made slings that way seem to think that the sling just dumps the stone from the side like an Y-sling does. I've seen Joergsprave made his slings like this and it hurts to see

These slings are in no way shape or form equal to performance to a proper sling
Their pouches are made solely to accodomate the cradling of a stone,
not to accodomate to exit action of the stone
A sling that has a pouch that accomodates cradling of a stone and accomodates the rolling exit of the stone is a good sling, these 2 requirements are fundamental to the sling no matter what design

Title: Re: My First Post
Post by Jauke on Jul 10th, 2020 at 2:11am
I saw a member that is no longer active draw the analogy to a rifled barrel with a bad crown

The shepherd sling is made to rifle, if there is a significant portrusion on the runway of the stone, there is a bad crown at the end of the barrel.

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