I recently reached out to Joel Turner from ShotIQ.
Joel is a leading authority in target panic and the mechanisms at work. Some archers on the forum may have heard of him before. I asked Joel if he could give some insight into exactly how target panic applies to slinging. He got back to me today with a short message and seems interested in giving slinging a go himself. His website is www.shotiq.com

Here is his reply:
"Mitch,
Sorry for the delay.  Your weapon system requires only open loop control systems.  There is nothing closed loop about the movements required for that action.  A closed loop movement is a movement that is performed slow enough you can stop it anywhere within the movement based on the feedback you gain while moving.  Throwing requires open loop movements that become automatic through repetition

If you put conscious thought into your throw, it will screw up the totality of the movement, your conscious thought needs to be in target focus.  Your subconscious is running the throw movement,,,,,completely opposite from shooting a bow where you let your subconscious do the aiming and the conscious mind is used for the shot activation movement"

Sounds really interesting. Hope he can do a deeper research about slinging.
I totally agree with the statement about putting "conscious thought into your throw", when you think, it never works.

yep he stated the bleeding obvious :-)

Not sure how you can learn from something you already know though ?

Mersa wrote on Jan 17^th, 2020 at 2:24am:

completely opposite from shooting a bow where you let your subconscious do the aiming and the conscious mind is used for the shot activation movement

I think this can change depending on the style of shooting you're doing.  The are methods to practice bow shooting where you repeat the shooting movement over and over and over, so your body is trained to automatically do it the same way every time.  Then when you're shooting at a target, your focus is on the target, your body takes care of the actual shot.  At least that's how I think about it.

I’m not an expert, but he sounds a little too confident in his answer for someone who doesn’t do a lot of slinging. You can “feel” when a throw is good or bad, and you can interrupt the process up to a point. Subconscious movements start as conscious ones and shift to subconscious through repetition.

It’s also possible to throw, make a conscious correction to your form, then throw again. It doesn’t have to all get fixed at the subconscious level. Otherwise Jaegoor’s coaching wouldn’t work, and we all know that he can teach people how to sling faster than they would learn only by repetition. 

I take Joel's advice seriously and although it is what I expected (as CA stated) it's good to have confirmation on the mechanisms at work, he is truely regarded as a world leader in target panic. He works with multiple weapon systems and helps work on the mind not so much the technique or mechanics of the shot.
I will likely forward our conversation to him so he can respond to any misinterpretations or questions we have.
In regards to archery you can defiantly use both closed and open loop systems, open loop would be a more or less aimed shot where you hold anchor ant a stationary target, and a closed loop would be more instinctual and usually on a surprise or moving target with a more "snap shooting" technique.

Perhaps these mechanics are what's happening to Jaegoor at competition (CA once stated he knows he could get a perfect score but is yet to do so)

Ich habe in meinen leben sehr erfolgreich bogensport betrieben. Ich war auch viele Jahre Trainer. Ich kenne die Problematik. Und es gibt diese definitiv auch bei der sling. Es gibt einiges was man tun kann. Das wichtigste. Man muß mögen was man tut. Ich hasse es zum Beispiel Tennisbälle zu schießen. Die Diane als Ziel, ein gutes Ziel für diesen Sport. Aber wirklich mögen kann ich es nicht.
Es gibt auch bei der sling einen Anker. Eine feste Position vor dem lösen.
Sie können Ängste nicht verringern. Nur die Wirkung der Angst können Sie verringern. Nicht die Angst selbst.

There is defiantly something to it. last time i slung i had a friend with me and could not hit my target for the life of me, as soon as he left i was consistently hitting it

I had the opposite once. It was very strange. He came along while I did some slinging and I was hitting every other shot. I had to explain it was a fluke and I'm never usually that good :D

Seems we ought to train ourselves to be more sociable lol! ;D

"Oh no, someones here... There goes my accuracy!"

Perhaps group slinger training might be the way to go if you are training for something like a competition. If you could get somewhat used to groups/crowds... you might be able to see a large improvement.

Now I just have to find a group or crowd...

I’m ok at distance with a crowd, accuracy I feel I’m best alone or with a few bystanders out of harms way, my nerves come from people standing within the danger zone. Even though I throw forwards every throw these days I still get a little fear about a mishap.

Yeah, Distance slinging I can do just fine with people near me. I am very confident in my distance slinging.

Target slinging. I am ashamed to say that I've never actually done that. At least, targets other than bushes or dead trees.

Which is why I probably haven't noticed any differences in my own slinging when I have people filming/watching me.

Etwas was die Genauigkeit beeinflusst ist das Essen.
Ich treffe hungrig viel besser. 😁

Less mind, more flow.
I think?
Pretty neat thread topic I'll be following this one!

I think in the beginning there needs to be focus on the technique, after a motion is established you can relax your conscious mind to the target.

Very much the zen slinging

When you don’t have time to think accuracy improves

My aerial target submission.

---

Mersa wrote on Jan 29^th, 2020 at 9:24pm:

When you don’t have time to think accuracy improves My aerial target submission.

No mind.  The body and your instincts take over. ;)

Joel got back to me again today and had a look at our discussion so far.
Here is he second instalment.

“Closed loop is for stationary, Precision work, open loop is for moving targets

Closed loop is only for a shot activation movement, not the entire shot movement itself.  For example, pressing the trigger on a rifle for a stationary, Precision target would be a closed loop movement.  Slow enough you can gain feedback and stop the movement if necessary.  With a closed loop trigger press, all concentration is on the movement and therefore you do not know when the gun will fire.  An open loop trigger press would be like the press used in shotgunning on moving targets where the shot is timed and activated by the sight picture.  The problem with open loop trigger movements is that there are always pre ignition movements linked to the trigger motor program if recoil and noise are caused by the movement.  So,,,,you cannot stop the flinch if you go open loop on the trigger.  Because no recoil happens in slinging, it is an open loop movement that gets made more automatic through repetition.

If you go open loop on your shot activation movement in archery, you are actually only making your pre ignition movements more efficient with every shot.  This makes the archery shot one giant linked motor program that is efficient, but actually uncontrolled and rarely accurate. “

Mersa wrote on Jan 29^th, 2020 at 9:24pm:

When you don’t have time to think accuracy improves My aerial target submission.

Amazing! I'll have to give it a go. The weather here has been awful and I now have some work shifts coming up so who knows when I'm going to be and to. Might have to be in Mallorca.

Mersa wrote on Jan 17^th, 2020 at 2:24am:

If you put conscious thought into your throw, it will screw up the totality of the movement, your conscious thought needs to be in target focus.

This is a very good description of my own experience with slinging. For a long time I thought that good and accurate slinging was the result of performing a specific technique down to minute detail. So I would try and memorize and write down every single little, tiny step in a specific technique and replicate those steps when I was slinging.

That, of course, went terrible so the worse I got, the more I tried to correct it by overanalysing my throws which in turn made them worse. It was a downwards spiral and I was close to quitting slinging.

Then I, somehow (I don't remember how I did), realized that I had to "feel" my throws, that is, I had to measure the quality of my throws by an intuitive feeling and BAM, I was instantly getting better results.

i feel like theres a difference in regards to closed/open loop control between bow and sling in the learning of it. i would say that the draw of a bow is a simple easy learned concept, whereas with slinging it follows the steps of motor learning, being cognitive, associative and autonomous.
during cognitive learning i would say slinging HAS to be closed loop, as all your focus needs to be on actually getting the projectile moving, and beginning to understand the way the sling moves and feels in motion. if you were to give someone a sling and tell them to aim at a target, my guess is they wouldnt have much of an idea on how to get it going. then i think that once you move into the associative and autonomous stages is where it is without a doubt open loop.

Nice observation maxi.

Das ist nicht so. Der Unterschied ist nicht groß.
Das richtige ziehen ist ebenso komplex wie slingen.

I agree Jaegoor
But only Partly
I think that in the beginning a fresh archer will shoot forwards
A fresh slinger could throw anywhere  ;D

Mersa. Auch das habe ich schon anders erlebt.
Denn pfeil in der Hand, und der Bow flog weg. 😁 😂

Woah, that’s scary!!

Are there any sling crafters in America that would be generous enough to donate a sling to Joel Turner, he seems genuinely interested in trying it out and could be a good representative to promote slinging to a wider audience. I’d donate my own design but I feel it’s less forgiving for a beginner.

I'll make him a sling from Nova Scotia Canada.
PM me his contact info and I'll get this going 8-)

Thanks Tomas, I’ll get back to you

Mersa wrote on Mar 8^th, 2020 at 7:49pm:

Thanks Tomas, I’ll get back to you

Well, what happened?

Yoh Serkraus, many thanks for bringing this thread back to the top. Over the years I have tried target shooting (rifle,pistol and black powder) archery, a catapult, gaming and even golf.
In the broadest sense all of these interpose a mechanical device between the aimer and the target.  Whilst a lever is a mechanical device the sling "lever" is more an extension of the arm and my epiphany came last week when out with the grandson.  We stand behind each others left shoulder at 5 metres as safe zone. We sling alternately and last week I started my wind up as I walked to the okey and  looking at the target let fly without stopping walking.
Best accuracy ever and totally relaxed with it !
Golf and slinging seem to have more in common than any of the others ....  No sights just a lever and a bullet.
Would be fascinated to hear others thoughts on the comparison and conclusions to be drawn.  Cheers.   🤓

xud9a - call me zud 👍 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2021 at 5:35pm:

Yoh Serkraus, many thanks for bringing this thread back to the top. Over the years I have tried target shooting (rifle,pistol and black powder) archery, a catapult, gaming and even golf. In the broadest sense all of these interpose a mechanical device between the aimer and the target.  Whilst a lever is a mechanical device the sling "lever" is more an extension of the arm and my epiphany came last week when out with the grandson.  We stand behind each others left shoulder at 5 metres as safe zone. We sling alternately and last week I started my wind up as I walked to the okey and  looking at the target let fly without stopping walking. Best accuracy ever and totally relaxed with it ! Golf and slinging seem to have more in common than any of the others ....  No sights just a lever and a bullet. Would be fascinated to hear others thoughts on the comparison and conclusions to be drawn.  Cheers.   🤓

There are few things more satisfying than slinging at a target and hitting it exactly where you wanted to  :)

Indeed, but you are perilously close to Morphy's assertion on the satisfaction of slinging   🤓🤓🤓

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Jan 17^th, 2020 at 2:19pm:

I’m not an expert, but he sounds a little too confident in his answer for someone who doesn’t do a lot of slinging. You can “feel” when a throw is good or bad, and you can interrupt the process up to a point. Subconscious movements start as conscious ones and shift to subconscious through repetition. It’s also possible to throw, make a conscious correction to your form, then throw again. It doesn’t have to all get fixed at the subconscious level. Otherwise Jaegoor’s coaching wouldn’t work, and we all know that he can teach people how to sling faster than they would learn only by repetition.

This.

The only thing better than Jaegoors success and repeatability of that success with others would be massive competitions of world class slingers all using their own style, ammo and sling type. Over the course of two decades trends of what works would become obvious as would trends of what work the best over and above other styles that produce results.

You see a similar effect in Chess. Very organized high level and extremely firece competition. The average chess players rating for upper level players has continued to increase higher and higher over the last several hundred years.

Paul Morphy my name sake and one of the worlds greatest geniuses when it came to understanding  chess traveled to Europe , after lazily destroying all contenders in America, to play a circuit against the greatest players in the world. Europe was the height of competition in chess. He didnt just win, he demolished even the best in the world.

Adolf Anderssen, considered by some to be the best in the world asked to play Morphy even though Morphy had had a severe case of intestinal flu and after treatment with blood sucking leeches left him too weak to stand he obliterated Anderssen. This would be unthinkable in todays chess world as the top players are almost at the peak of what the human mind can do. But in his day Morphy literally changed the way people played chess the world over. He was nothing more than a one in a hundred year savant when it came to being that much better than everyone else of his day.

So whats my point here? Morphy would not stand a chance against probably the top 100 players in the world today let alone the best. That's what happens when you have many years of constant competitions held by people all spending their lives trying to be better than everyone else. The level of skill goes up dramatically.

We dont have that. Jaegoor offers the best alternative to this and his style is the opposite of no thought as far as I can gather.