Slinging.org Forum
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl
General >> Slinging as a Sport, Competition Rules, Slinging Awards And Events >> Sling Standart
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1566806901

Message started by Jaegoor on Aug 26th, 2019 at 4:08am

Title: Sling Standart
Post by Jaegoor on Aug 26th, 2019 at 4:08am
Es wird viel diskutiert. Slingen als Sport. Und doch geht es nicht voran. Auf denn Balearen ist slingen rückläufig. Es gibt große Probleme. Kein Nachwuchs.
Ich beobachte es schon sehr lange. Ich führte viele Gespräche.
Slingen ist ein Sport der Individualisten. Damit habe ich kein Problem. Aber wir reden ständig über das selbe. Stile und Power.
Jeder mir bekannte Sport hat sehr eigene Merkmale. Standart.
Was ist der Standart beim slingen? Wie kann man es reizvoller gestalten?


Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Jauke on Aug 26th, 2019 at 10:24am
We need safe ammo to use when there are other people around, that also doesn't bounce around and get lost easily. Otherwise competitions are too dangerous, imo.

Rocks/clayballs/glandes, I would never be comfortable utilizing their full power when there are many people around, just too dangerous if it accidentally slips out during wind up. I would never risk it.  And without utilizing all the power, the throw becomes weak and boring. It would be like an archery competition where all the bows are sub 25 pounds drawweight.

Tennisballs aren't good either, they bounce so far and easily get lost, and they are too light.

Balloons filled with sands are the best choice for competition or sport ammo when there are other people around. On impact they disform and fall below the target. You can reshape them back into the perfect shape. They dig into the pouch well. You can also make them consistent in the weight you prefer. Competition requires consistent ammo properties. So are the arrows of an archer.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Sarosh on Aug 26th, 2019 at 10:51am
google translate :
Quote:
There is a lot of discussion. Slipping as a sport. And yet it is not progressing. On the Balearic Islands sling is declining. There are big problems. No offspring.
I've been watching it for a long time. I had many talks.
Slings is a sport of the individualists. I do not have a problem with that. But we are always talking about the same thing. Styles and Power.
Every sport I know has very own characteristics. Standart.
What is the standard in slinging? How can you make it more attractive?



Jaegoor wrote on Aug 26th, 2019 at 4:08am:
Wie kann man es reizvoller gestalten?


a safe place- a field/range made for slingers similar to archery . For example an archery club near me once had a big field  90m and a small indoors 10m I was excited with the idea that one day I will do archery at 90m. When i visited the indoors range I was informed that the outdoors range was closed indefinitely for safety reasons, i was very disappointed , no outdoors means for me no room for improvement, I didn't even sign up.
I'm running to the same problem with slinging I'm getting sick and tired of being limited to the same 40m range.
with no prospect of slinging at your max potential who will want to learn such a difficult skill.

it's not a foolproof sport , an idiot trying to sling will be a danger to everyone at the range, even advanced slingers might get a stone slip from the pouch during windup. So the field must be made safe not only for those outside but for those slinging as well. Maybe put slinging cages? like those used in hammer throwing. And now things are too complicated , expensive and spacious .

PS: just read jauke's answer. I think we have the same problem but we provide different solutions. I would prefer to be able to sling any ammo that I like, from tennis balls to lead, inside a cage rather than be restricted to a particular "safe" projectile.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 26th, 2019 at 11:48am
you are awae that a 'balloon filled with sand' is a slug blackjack. Blackjacks are illegal in many countries.

It might not bounce but if you get hit with one of mr jaegoors rusty balls. It will break bones and easily kill.

Tennis balls are plenty heavy enough and a good size. If you sling at a target on grass - they also don't roll that far.
Bear in mind you are target slinging - so actually trying to hit something rather than kill it.

They are also designed to not travel far in the air, so you can use a smaller area for the competition.
And they are a universal size and weight, the world over.

Realistically the tennis ball is THE ONLY universal ammunition that anyone anywhere in the world can easily acquire.

Now, if you want to know how slinging can be promoted as both as pastime and a sport.
Then there is only one place you look to: Guam.

They go into schools, they play sling golf (with the blessing of the golf courses) they hold regular meetings.
He's a modest guy, but Roman De La Cruz, has driven the slinging program on guam to the point that, Guam and the marianas islands are the current world centre for slinging. Both for growth in slinger numbers and variety of slinging - and it's variety that attracts people.

It's just a damn shame it's so frigging far away from the rest of the world.

But basically if it can be done, Roman will find a away to get it done.
 

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Sarosh on Aug 26th, 2019 at 11:59am

A paragraph from:
              Traditional bowyers bible vol4
        LESSONS FROM TARGET ARCHERY  Jim Hamm
"Target bows were, by that time, far removed from their battlefield origins, but they were nevertheless involved in some notable feats. The first nationwide British archery tournament was held in 1844, and five years later , in 1849, Horace Ford won the first of a remarkable eleven national championships in a row, a record that still stands today. In the double York round in 1857, which consisted of 144 arrows at 100yds, 96 arrows at 80 yards and 48 arrows at 60 yards- a grueling day's shooting by any standard- Ford shot a world record 1251, a mark that stood unbroken for more than fifty years.Understand he was shooting at these long ranges at a target with a gold center ring(scoring 9 points) under ten inches in diameter, and his skill seems all the more amazing."

I don't know about you but just reading this got me excited about archery, I bet a similar tournament with slings will excite lots of people .
Studying how archery/bow making and other "forgotten" arts were revived will be a good guide for making slinging a more widespread sport.

The sad truth is that since there are no products to be mass produced and make profit from, like the modern bows, no one is going to invest in fields , marketing or the promotion of the sport.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Jauke on Aug 26th, 2019 at 2:07pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 26th, 2019 at 11:48am:
you are awae that a 'balloon filled with sand' is a slug blackjack. Blackjacks are illegal in many countries.

It might not bounce but if you get hit with one of mr jaegoors rusty balls. It will break bones and easily kill.

Tennis balls are plenty heavy enough and a good size. If you sling at a target on grass - they also don't roll that far.
Bear in mind you are target slinging - so actually trying to hit something rather than kill it.

They are also designed to not travel far in the air, so you can use a smaller area for the competition.
And they are a universal size and weight, the world over.

Realistically the tennis ball is THE ONLY universal ammunition that anyone anywhere in the world can easily acquire.

Now, if you want to know how slinging can be promoted as both as pastime and a sport.
Then there is only one place you look to: Guam.

They go into schools, they play sling golf (with the blessing of the golf courses) they hold regular meetings.
He's a modest guy, but Roman De La Cruz, has driven the slinging program on guam to the point that, Guam and the marianas islands are the current world centre for slinging. Both for growth in slinger numbers and variety of slinging - and it's variety that attracts people.

It's just a damn shame it's so frigging far away from the rest of the world.

But basically if it can be done, Roman will find a away to get it done.
 


I make mine much smaller than Jeagoors. These are 65 gram.
Granted, that's only about 10 grams heavier than a tennisball, but they're a lot smaller and fly much faster + don't bounce.

Jeagoor uses 10(?) balloons for one of his balls. These only use 3.
The more balloons you use, the more force it takes to deform / the harder it hits. This one is very soft. It will not break bones, nor considered to be a black jack, anywhere.

I've thrown these ones over a 100 times against a wooden backstop. Not a single one has broken. Because the balloon is barely stretched, it is very durable. Fill them with the finest sand, and they become even softer. On impact, they flatten out completely.

No more tennisballs for me. After they hit the backstop they usually end up in the neighbours yard 2 houses further  :)
WP_20141119_04_28_09_Pro.jpg (88 KB | 6 )

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Jaegoor on Aug 26th, 2019 at 4:11pm
Tennisbälle sind scheiße. Ich mag sie einfach nicht. Die Schleuder schlägt zurück. Das ist unangenehm. Rustyballs funktionieren sehr gut. Und ja sie sind gefährlich. Aber das ist ein Pfeil auch. Es ist also nur ein schwaches Argument.
Ton als Munition  ist weltweit verfügbar. Mit denn richtigen Formen kann sie jeder selber machen. Angler tun das. Schützen tun das. Selbst im bogensport gibt es sehr viel Material zum selber bauen.
Ich habe in Deutschland eine Gruppe slinger gegründet. Innerhalb eines sportvereins. Das war nicht ganz einfach.
Vor Jahren habe ich bereits ein System erdacht. Ähnlich wie im Judo oder kampfsport. Sie können im slingen mehrere schülergatuierungen erreichen. Bis hin zur Meisterschaft. Wir tragen keine Gürtel. Wir verwenden farbige t Shirts. Es funktioniert sehr gut. Kinder entwickeln dadurch Ehrgeiz besser zu werden. Und es schafft einen guten Überblick über denn Stand der Ausbildung. Und wir trainieren nicht nur mit der sling. Im Training gibt es viele Spiele. Mit und ohne sling. Besonders beliebt ist pelota mano. Es ist ein perfektes körperliches Training.
Wir schießen Tennisbälle mit der sling. Ein andere fängt sie auf. Ohne viel Power. So lernt man schnell geradeaus zu schießen. Das fangen koordiniert Hand und Auge. Und es gibt noch einige mehr dieser Spiele.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Morphy on Aug 26th, 2019 at 10:33pm
The biggest issue at least here in America would probably be a lack of the commercial aspect to the sport.

Archery gives hunters another season to enjoy their sport which means a lot of people who wouldn't be as interested end up doing archery for the hunting aspect and not vice versa. This creates a whole culture around it that slinging lacks since hunting is big business here in America and ties into other cousins of the sport- camping, fishing, hiking etc. In other words there's big money for companies to push hunting culture.

Since slinging is very difficult to master to ethical hunting levels and is not yet legal for deer anyways, that leaves mostly target slinging or distance slinging to draw people into the sport. Neither of which are enough by themselves to have a wide spread influx of slingers. The overly difficult nature of the sling ensures that it will likely not be commercialized for hunting so in effect it is its own worst enemy.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 27th, 2019 at 1:06am

Jaegoor wrote on Aug 26th, 2019 at 4:08am:
Es wird viel diskutiert. Slingen als Sport...Wie kann man es reizvoller


We are too focused on what rules or styles or ammunition would make slinging more popular, but those are the wrong things to focus on.  With enough effort, you could make almost any version of slinging popular: long range, accuracy-based, teams slinging soft projectiles at other teams, sling-based golf... whatever. It doesn’t matter what games or rules you pick.  Obviously the game must be fun, but what really matters is that the game makes people always want more of it.
One of the most effective ways to do this is with money. If you can find a way to organize something that people are willing to pay for, then anyone who makes money from it will be motivated to put in the effort to spread the slinging culture.  Selling slings is generally not very profitable, but selling training might be if you can duplicate your martial art format for new clubs without also duplicating Jaegoor.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 27th, 2019 at 6:26am
one jaegoor is enough for any world !
lol

Yep, we talk a lot about this at the international.

Competitions should be much more comprehensive.
Speed slinging for example: How many throws in 30 seconds.

Distance, that has a lot of arguing. I maintain that distance comps with tennis balls is the only logical approach.
You don't need much space, it's safe and also very hard. Getting a tennis ball to travel any real distance is really bloody difficult.
But it's something anyone can practice anywhere in the world.

You need to seperate distance competitions from absolute distance.

Given that absolute distance would need to be done on an area well over 500metres on a side, and with a totally lethal projectile, it's not practical for regular competition.
I still have yet to find anywhere in the uk that we could use for a world record attempt with a lead glande.

But everyone slinging the same missile for distance - very easy to do.

Given that target slinging is only 20-30 metres, I really don't see why it has to be split into male and female categories.
I know puchi and mar agree with me.
In team slinging everyone slings 20 metres. And teams can be as mixed as you like - men, women, kids.

There are a lot of the current balearic rules that make no sense.

And for a global slinging movement we'll need to lose many of them.

@jauke - that is still a potentially lethal projectile.

There needs to be something for everyone. people who can't hit a barn door if they're holding the handle, might be really good at speed slinging or distance slinging - and vice versa.
People who can't swing a golf club - for whatever reason, might be able to use a sling to play golf.

But tying it all up to history and tradition - is not the way forward. Unfortunately convincing the balearic folk of this is a long and constantly uphill battle. 

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Aug 27th, 2019 at 9:33am
You also need a flagship game that everyone associates with slinging. There can be more than one game, obviously, but you need one thing or one epic event that serves as a focal point.   Speed, range, accuracy challenges, etc are technical things that serious slingers appreciate but those are highly technical and nuanced games that are not good spectator sports. You need something fun to watch and fun to play. There should be drama, suspense, cliff-hangers, and rivalries.
... and after all of that, you need originality and ease of access. Slam Ball is arguably more fun and exciting than basketball, but both because it’s derivative, and because its difficult for people to play at home, it’s not as big:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ouXw328WYI

In the same way that slam ball is derivative of basketball (and maybe a few other sports too), sling golf only borrows from the popularity of golf.  It’s also less accessible because it requires a golf course.

Start by imagining how you want the sling-based sport to look, then work backwards to your actual system.


Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Sarosh on Aug 27th, 2019 at 10:40am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on Aug 27th, 2019 at 9:33am:
Start by imagining how you want the sling-based sport to look, then work backwards to your actual system.

something like this but for slings and staff slings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bJvT7RHh7o
it seems like a university , a temple and a range for archery
or any other #MyRange . That would be wow!
I wonder how the other ranges were founded, the turkish range is from 1450s.
it's not easy to work backwards to the actual system. Probably we should start with creating many small clubs in a lot of different cities around the world and attract some curious souls :p
then cooperate
then it can be recognised as a sport
it's going to take decades...  :-/

at first the only common thing the clubs should have is the use of sling , no need for any other standard.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm
Actually what works best is to give a bunch of people a sling and a sock ball each - stick them in a field and just let them sling at each other :-)

IT's all anyone wants to do at the start.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Mersa on Aug 28th, 2019 at 2:44am
I think that the most marketable version of a sling would be as a dog ball thrower, that doubles as a leash. But the ball throwing sticks are still probally more marketable.

As a kids toy I think it's too hard in the beginning , it would need to become viral like a fidget spinner or yoyo. And then it falls into the problem of what it's throwing.
I think that as a harmless game where you throw at eachother with the right ammo it could be fun but again hard to get people keen to play.

As a survival tool it would get a little traction , you could make videos on how to use the sling in multiple variations as a snare or bowdril. And videos displaying its potential . But again that's individual.

For me the most fun I have with a sling is just messing around by a lake or ocean where there is an abundance of free ammo and space.

the sling is the tool and the game depends on the projectile

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Kick on Aug 28th, 2019 at 2:51am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Aug 27th, 2019 at 7:25pm:
Actually what works best is to give a bunch of people a sling and a sock ball each - stick them in a field and just let them sling at each other :-)

IT's all anyone wants to do at the start.


I'm still kind of sad I haven't had the opportunity for a "sling war". If you give a sling to a kid (or an adult really...) the first or at least second thing they'll think is "I wonder if I could hit them...". It's human nature in my opinion. Might be good to play into that but safely!

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Curious Aardvark on Aug 28th, 2019 at 6:22am
sock balls :-)

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by funditor on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 4:19pm
Haha yes a 'sling war' is great fun!
We make one every year at the Roman Festival in Carnuntum. When the visitors have left, I bring fourty slings and hundred tennis balls for the reenactors, we arrange in two groups on the big battle field, and thenn the bally fly until everyone is exhausted 😀😀

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by funditor on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 4:23pm
For increasing the sport - A good idea is to use as much from other popular sports as possible.

As the main bullet type I vote for tennis balls
Reasons
Relative safety for bystanders
Easy availibility in large numbers at low prize
Standardized size and weight

We have a slinging club founded this year in Austria, and can train with the balls at  regular tennis court

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by funditor on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 4:26pm
For distance I look over to golf
There distance cn be combined with precision, as Vegetius states for the trining of soldiers with the sling

Sling golf - All the infrastructure is there at the golg course, as also safe, cheap and standardized projectiles

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Sarosh on Sep 4th, 2019 at 3:45am

funditor wrote on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 4:26pm:
For distance I look over to golf

Isn't it expensive? I think it's 60euro/day here.

safe projectiles aren't that attractive to me a safe range is very attractive

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Sep 4th, 2019 at 8:55pm
The only way sling golf makes sense is if you use free frisbee golf courses at public parks (or talk the golf course into a huge discount). Slingers are too cheap to pay golf course prices :)

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by TheJackinati on Sep 5th, 2019 at 2:14am
Slingers are also likely way to cheap to buy archery equipment...  ;D

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by NooneOfConsequence on Sep 6th, 2019 at 9:43pm
What’s interesting about Jaegoor’s approach is that he treats it like a martial art instead of a ball sport. The colored shirts give people a clear understanding that they can improve by achieving certain criteria or passing a test. Have you ever posted your criteria Jaegoor?  How do your students earn the next shirt?

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Jaegoor on Sep 8th, 2019 at 11:22am
Ja ich habe es schon einmal gepostet.
Es ist sehr schwierig Menschen davon zu überzeugen.
Ich sehe slingen als Sport mit vielen Möglichkeiten. Nicht nur schießen. Viele haben heute verkümmerte koordinative Fähigkeiten. Diese muß man wieder aktivieren. Dann wird auch der Umgang mit der sling besser.
Ein Spiel was wir für unser Training entdeckt haben ist pelota a mano. Ein tolles Spiel für Kraft, Geschicklichkeit und Koordination. Perfekt für ein sling Training

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Jaegoor on Sep 14th, 2019 at 2:27am
;) wo steht ihr?
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Slinger.pdf (130 KB | 13 )

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by GurtTractor on Sep 14th, 2019 at 8:27am
Regarding ammunition; I saw a thing where somebody was taking part in medieval reenactments as a slinger, using ammunition made of dried peas wrapped in duct tape. Apparently could still hurt but wouldn't be particularly dangerous. Not sure where I saw that, might have been here.

And I saw this a while back - https://youtu.be/rqUy2NZFXdU
A sling competition for schools in Guam, the guy made some safer ammuntion using silicone and starch, proto putty apparently. They're just shooting at targets there though.

I think a good way of having safe but somewhat realistic ammuntion would be to have a heavy core with a soft deformable outer layer. For indoor practice I use bits of used aluminium foil wrapped into a ball then wrapped with some bubble wrap and tape. Not as heavy as a proper stone but they can go plenty fast for the very short distances inside. Bubble wrap tends to pop and deflate quickly, but something like some kind of closed cell foam to cover a heavy core might make for excellent ammo for martial practice. Face or at least eye protection would certainly be needed, but I bet it's possible to make good ammo that would be safe and still usable for close/medium distance.

Title: Re: Sling Standart
Post by Jaegoor on Sep 14th, 2019 at 5:26pm
Munition ist kein Thema
Kinder trainieren mit Tennisbällen.
Indoor funktionieren Tennisbälle und Rusty Balls hervorragend.
Draußen benutzt man Stein oder Ton, bzw Lehm.
Haben sie eine entsprechende Anlage zum trainieren, ist auch Blei möglich.
Auch ein pfeil ist tödlich. Von fast jeden Bogen.
Bei Stein rufen alle gefährlich. Tzzz. Das ist lächerlich. Slingen ist ein schieß Sport.

Slinging.org Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2019. All Rights Reserved.