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General >> Slinging as a Sport, Competition Rules, Slinging Awards And Events >> FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
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Message started by woodssj on May 8th, 2018 at 10:34pm

Title: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 8th, 2018 at 10:34pm
So this started over at the segment on "care and feeding of jute slings" here: http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1525262929

I got a bit off topic, and I apologize. I am genuinely curious what the service-life of various types of sling are, and also in starting up a bit of a study of how slinging works, maths wise.

It would be of interest to record not just competition outcomes, but routine shooting as well. For those throwing at standard ranges, there's easy scoring metrics, but I break it down to disks, boards and misses instead, which simplifies tracking, is easy to turn into a score later, and will also work with non-standard ranges, either shorter or longer.

There's also a service-life tracker for the sling itself, tracking throws with what kind of ammunition, the date, and treatments done to the sling, and so on. This would give us a general ball park of what to expect from slings, and not much else.

I am trying to put together a basic form for range-throwing, as opposed to accuracy, but that's a little more difficult. I'll likely break it down by the same categories as the target book (Sling length, light, weather, ammunition, and place) with "Meters" changed over to "Max Range". This could then be broken down to 25m increments, perhaps? The idea being to record the number of throws landing in each increment (0-25/26-50/51-75/76-100/etc) out to about 300 yards, with space for remarks, which can hold longer shots. I'm still not entirely sure how I'm going to implement this, so it'll be a while in coming.

I might also start up a Google Drive Form for this as well.

The larger the body of information, the better we can compute averages. These can then be used for whatever we like, yes, but also by historians. If amateurs like us are shooting 75%, let's say, on a standard target 20 meters away, and getting ranged shots routinely bracketing 200 yards, there's now some evidence for them to go off of when discussing the ancient world.

Not exactly precise, I know. But it's better than the nothing we've currently got!

Thank you for your help on this strange and unusual side project. If anyone wants the data, I'll gladly hare, just send me a message here. Also, I'm more than happy to take type-setting advise and change up the forms as needed.

I'll link the Google Form for this in a second post in this thread.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Sling_Maintence_And_Use_Record_001.pdf (24 KB | 48 )
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Individual_Score_Book_for_the_Sling_Mk_III_001.pdf (57 KB | 44 )

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 8th, 2018 at 11:05pm
Here's the Google Form for digital collection. Hopefully we'll see some statistics collect relatively soon! Again, thank you for your help!

https://goo.gl/forms/Uta29LMwzbqdCAAm1

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 13th, 2018 at 10:38pm
So, we finally got a response, and it was all zeros.

Please don't do this. It puts off the averages for everyone further down the line.

If you'd like to see the results, or there is sufficient demand, I can post a read-out once a month on this thread.

Thank you.

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 14th, 2018 at 1:35am
I've entered what I could find of competitions on Youtube for an initial data set. This is the resulting "Stastically Average Slinger" with a sling generally about 1 meter in length. I was able to put in 24 separate responses for all the various ranges, so the sample is still quite small. Hopefully it grows over the coming days and weeks.


                10 Meters      20 Meters           30 Meters
Disk              5                  10              0
Percent Disk      25            21.73913043          0
Square              10               17                17
Percent Square      50            36.95652174    37.77777778
Miss                5                   19              28
Percent Miss         25          41.30434783       62.22222222
Shots Taken        20                   46               45


Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 14th, 2018 at 1:49am
Lastly, the link to the Spreadsheet of data. It's published on my Google Drive, so you should be able to access it freely.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSUtp7cIJnGC7I2Bmro4IOZhxiHIiKRmBmWEwVOJt3qVaXyxmH-i679QbRUP3uKYKSBPeUGHx7Tt0V2/pub?output=xlsx




Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by Sarosh on May 14th, 2018 at 7:57am
i like your ideas.
it's similar to the approach trainers for the olympic games would take.

but i have to say i think my approach is easier.
instead of having a set target (balearic) i use any target at any distance that i can throw the stone pretty flat. maybe the problem is the backstop.

also instead of measuring accuracy (hit or no hit) i measure consistency in degrees of angle, which i think simplifies things. you can be accurate but very inconsistent. the difference between a pro and a newbie is not neccessarily their best but how consistent they are.

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by Morphy on May 14th, 2018 at 9:33am
I've been thinking we need this information for awhile now but have been too lazy to try and compile it all myself. Thanks for doing all the heavy lifting!  ;D

Now if only we could get sling length, slinger arm length and height, slinging style and ammo weight and type we could really start getting at some of the more bedeviling questions about what seems to produce the best results. I think only actual "high level" competition data is going to settle these debates. Unfortunately such information is not to be had as of yet.

Have you considered having a special designation for actual competition throws? Just curious.

Anyways, look at that hit percentage for 30 meters. Some day that's going to change drastically.


Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 14th, 2018 at 2:27pm
don't use leather pouch slings for wet tennis balls :-)

It was what i had in my pocket - forgot to get one of the flexible plastic ones.

So wet stuff will kill most slings.

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 14th, 2018 at 10:16pm
Sarosh:

While your methods might be good for individual practice, they're not easily replicated or standard. The reason for this study is to get reasonably objective data, and thus requires we use at least the same target and distances. Also, this is easy on the maths, so those without more mathematical skills can still participate easily.

Morphy:

Metrics can be powerful, and for real study of the Sling and it's potential effectiveness, I agree. We've needed this information for years.

As for the ammunition, height, and other measurements... Those add too much complexity for baseline data. If we're going to go that far, we need to pick a corps of skilled shooters, then do controls and so on. Definitely worthwhile, but requires more thought. If you put something like that together, I want in! I also want Data!

Having someone like me participate in something like that is useless, though. You can give me match-grade ammunition and a match-grade rifle and scope, but I'm not a match-grade marksman!


CA:

Man, those weather variables are worth noting! That's why they're in the score book... you'll always have that to blame if someone asks!

Keep up the slinging and data collection!

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by NooneOfConsequence on May 16th, 2018 at 12:59am
Woodssj, there are fundamentally two different categories of slinging practice: slinging for accuracy and slinging for distance.  They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but the goals, equipment, and techniques can all be quite different, depending on which one you are going for.  For example, distance slingers trend toward longer slings and full-body motion.  Accuracy slingers intentionally dial back power in order to improve consistency. It may not be an apples-apples comparison if all the data lumps the two together.   

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by kicktheotter on May 16th, 2018 at 3:45am

NooneOfConsequence wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 12:59am:
there are fundamentally two different categories of slinging practice: slinging for accuracy and slinging for distance.


That's a really good point actually. I only very recently got into distance slinging having done exclusively target slinging before and it really is very different including the slings and ammo I use for one and not the other.

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 16th, 2018 at 6:43pm
That is a good point.

Hence, the idea of looking for a different set of data to collect.

I use the same sling for both, clocking at just about a meter long, normally a simple postal-twine, untreated Balearic with a 3-strand braid, off the instruction here:

http://www.tourism-mallorca.com/foners/03angl/01ferFona.html

I'm just not talented enough to make more than that or a Rockman Pattern. And I'm not patient enough to do many Rockman Slings.

That being said, while the same sling might be used, there's a big difference in technique, as you point out.

I think the basic data headings, like range, weather, sling length/type, and so on are all going to stay the same. It's the changes to how to score it that'll be the rub.

Do we average the ranges hit? Record the number of throws and give the long and short throw? Record the number of shots, and the mode of those shots?

It's going to take some real thought, and a body of people with a sufficient, well-marked range to shoot on.

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by NooneOfConsequence on May 17th, 2018 at 7:53am
I will spare you a comprehensive treatise on designing test methods (you’re welcome), but if you want usable data from casual slingers that is scientifically valid, it’s not going to be easy to come up with a process that hobby slingers are willing to follow while still considering it “fun”.

This is where games can really help, because there is already a scoring element and the competitive nature makes people willing to measure while they play.


Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 17th, 2018 at 7:55pm
both good points. That's why I'm really hoping the competition scores from any events we're aware of will be entered in the study. They should already be using the standard ranges and targets, so there's a solid sample there with all the controls necessary.

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by Morphy on May 19th, 2018 at 11:36am
I wish I spoke Spanish ( or is it Catalan over there?), because we really do need this data and I would love to be able to contact someone and fluently explain why this would be so helpful.  It's extremely important for the evolution of our understanding of what works. Only high level competition scores can give us that. 

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by woodssj on May 19th, 2018 at 6:06pm
Well, that's another issue I hadn't thought of: The Language Barrier.

Perhaps we can get someone to translate a few things like the Score Book and similar into Spanish, French, and so on? I can cover French (not necessarily well, mind you. It's been 10 years since French Class) but spanish is beyond my knowledge at this point.

What other languages would we be able to gather here?

And, as you said: How do we explain this so people outside the English-speaking world participate? I'm sure it can be done, we just need the right person to step forward.

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by NooneOfConsequence on May 19th, 2018 at 9:36pm
(Cough, cough) Does anyone know someone who can translate into German???

Title: Re: FUNDA-METRICS, or stats for slingers
Post by Caldou on Jul 2nd, 2018 at 4:38pm
Even through it's also been 10 years since my last French class, I'm still french and using it everyday, so I may be able to do something if needed ;)

Just tell me :)

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