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Message started by Morphy on Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:06am

Title: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Aug 5th, 2017 at 9:06am
Hey guys, I think Im finally going to do some legitimate sling braiding and I was wondering if those of you with expeience could help me out.

Heres my questions:  Should I start out with a one of those cheap Kumihimo discs or just go for making a Maurudai from the start?

Are there any advantages to using the Maurudai?

Is there one particular book that is better than others to start out with? Some of the things Im wondering about are how to make the retention loop (I assume its just as you would with a normal braid; folding the cord over and braiding both sides together?)

Also I keep mentally going over the braiding steps in my mind for braiding around a core. My idea is to have 4 plies in the core then seperate them into two groups of two at the pouch and do a split pouch apache. Basically instead of splitting the cord into just two sides and sewing leather on, I would split the cord into four and have two on one side and two on the other, making a split pouch. If that makes sense. But Im struggling to figure out how to incorporate the outer braided plies into the core plies in an aesthetic manner. Im wondering if I can just get a square disc for flat braids and do it that way...I really have no idea.

I realize this is a very specific and random set of questions but any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Aug 7th, 2017 at 4:46pm
Welcome to a very beautiful world  ;)

What's best depends on what you want to do and which techniques you use.
For sling braids you have mainly three possibilities:
- Working freehanded (so called fistbraiding), the peruvian way.
- Marudai.
- Kumihimo disk

Freehand:
Pros: No tools are required, work can be packed up tightly and done everywhere.
Cons: The possible techniques are more limited and there are certain braids that can not (easily) be done.
Varia: That's my preferred way of working. Feels very natural to me.  Works with the method "Look at it and pick the right one" aka: "The master of chaos"  ;) There are many possible patterns.

Marudai: I have very limited personal experience, mostly theoretical from books and hearsay.
Pros: Very versatile, very broad range of patterns are available. Tensioning is  done by counterweight and is thus more even.
Cons: Requires a lot of material especially for larger projects, bulky to transport, requires space.
Varia: For people that like to follow drawn schemes. many books are available. It is arguably the fastest method as only little manual tensioning is required and both hands can be used to manipulate threads.


Kumihimo card:
Pro: Easy to make yourself out of cardboard, modestly small and thus easy to transport, keeps your threads always in order.
Cons: Not very fast. Threads can be damaged when popping them in and out of the slots.
Varia: Beginners choice. Only the ability to follow numbers is required and no deeper understanding of the structure of the braid. Plenty of books around. I find it easier when braiding freehand to get the tensioning right.

So if your frustration tolerance is high I would go directly to freehand or Marudai as these are from my point of view the advanced methods. If you want a first fast success, get/make a card and follow a recipe.

About the retention loop: Yes, that's how you do it.

Transitions are the real "trade secrets" and everyone is doing them a little bit differently. There are just too many different ways. For a first attempt: Grab all your strings (including core), split into two groups. Rearrange strings and put half of them away. Braid both groups individually to your designed pattern and combine again or use another technique such as weaving. It usually turns out okay. If necessary, cover up the transition with a colourful wrapping.
Make sampling pieces to test techniques!
Hint: for the first piece, don't use a core. it just adds difficulty. Just split the threads into two groups and braid them as you like or use a weaving technique as done in many peruvian slings.


Books: http://www.braidershand.com/bhbooks1.html
You might find the book due in November especially interesting (i'm going to buy it ;))
Others:
Andean Sling braids by Rodrick Owen and Terry Newhouse Flynn (card, marudai, all patterns possible to be done freehanded, covers braids with cores).
Braids - 250 Patterns from Japan, Peru and Beyond (Marudai and Card) also by Owen
Sling Braiding of the Andes by Adele Cahlander (original publication on fistbraiding)

I can recommend all of these.

Free info: https://backstrapweaving.wordpress.com/tutorials/tutorial-palma-and-margarita-braids/
(fistbraiding).
For the card and Marudai just search the web for the basic ones:
- http://fene4ki.ru/en/kumihimo-bracelet-tutorial.html
- http://craftdesignonline.com







Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Aug 7th, 2017 at 5:02pm
Teg, you're amazing my good sir. Thanks for all that info. You definitely answered a lot of questions. Ive been thinking a lot about this and since I dont have the materials yet all I can do is go over the different steps and patterns in my head. Looking forward to getting started. :D

By the way... I completely forgot to send you something for winning the 1up target slinging contest.  I have an idea of something but not sure if I can pull it off. Anyways, if not that then I definitely want to send something. If you could pm me your address I will send you something as soon as circumstances permit. Thanks.  :)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Aug 7th, 2017 at 5:17pm
You're welcome! Braiding has a special place in my heart and life.

I'll send a PM your way shortly.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Aug 10th, 2017 at 3:11pm
That moment when you're braiding a sling and you realize you are being watched...   :o


Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Rat Man on Aug 10th, 2017 at 5:41pm
I've always been a freehander.  Maybe it's time to try something different. It may respark my interest. 

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Aug 29th, 2017 at 10:06am
Ok, next question if anyone knows about this stuff... I am currently stuck in my house so it only makes sense to braid a sling.

My question is how much thread do I need? I am braiding around a core of 2 gutted paracord. I want a 24 inch sling and the pouch will be around 5.5 inches. So thats 24 inches × 2 for both sides equals 48" plus the 5.5. for the pouch plus a few more for the loop. So lets say about 60 inches of length to braid.

So i measured 8 arm lengths of 27 inches each per bundle. Which means each bundle is approx. 216 inches.

Will this be enough? Because it feels kind of like it wont be. But I tend to always over shoot how much cord I need and end up with tons of extra in each bundle. The other concern is that Im braiding around a pinky finger thick core so would that require more material?

Thanks  :)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Aug 29th, 2017 at 3:55pm

Morphy wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 10:06am:
Will this be enough?
I don't know  ;)


Morphy wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 10:06am:
The other concern is that Im braiding around a pinky finger thick core so would that require more material?

Yes, having a core will usually require more material.

Typically I multiply the intended length with 2 to 3 to get my initial string length, with 2 beeing on the short end and 3 beeing conservative. However, I have no idea what impact your core will have. So for 60 inch, I'd take 180 inch to be on the save side. With 216 inch your a bit above that and most probably safe (but don't blame me  ;))

The definitive answer is: sampling.

Example: take e.g. 20 cm of string into each bundle (initial string length).
Braid as long as you want around the core e.g. 10 cm (braided length).
Measure how much you have left in each bundle e.g. 5 cm (leftover).
Decide how long your braid shall be in the end  e.g. 2 m (intended braid length).

Calculate the required initial string length:

(initial string length - leftover) / (braided length) * (intended braid length) =  required initial string length

for this example:

(20 cm  - 5 cm)/ (10 cm) * (200 cm) = 300 cm.

And add safety margin etc ( e.g. 50 cm).

I would therefore take ~350 cm of string for the above example.

Usually: the longer you make your sample, the more accurate your estimate will be. 10 cm is quite short for a sampling piece.







Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Aug 29th, 2017 at 5:45pm
Thanks Teg. That makes sense. If this one ends up too short which I assume it will, I will probably just have to add a replacable release cord to shorten the amount of thread I need. Good learning experience either way.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Mersa on Aug 29th, 2017 at 6:02pm
Every time I start a new sling the first string I cut is always too short.

I use 3 pieces of string braided and folded in the middle to form a finger loop then use the 6 stands to braid the sling and split pouch.

Very quick free hand with a flat plait
Much longer process free hand doing a 6 round braid.

Measure 3 times cut once

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:24am
Measure 3 cut once. Wise words. Nothing worse than putting in 20 hours of work only to realize its not quite right. This will be the third time Ive messed up on this particular sling. I will be starting my 4th tomorrow if possible.

But that being said it's almost as enjoyable learning the pitfalls and becoming a better braider as it is actually finishing the sling. When it  is finished it will be worth it.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Aug 30th, 2017 at 3:26pm
Yes, in the beginning it requires some determination. However, I really enjoy solving some manual problems after a day in the office. The way is the experience  ;).

Looking forward to see the final result!

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Aug 30th, 2017 at 6:10pm

Teg wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 3:26pm:
Yes, in the beginning it requires some determination. However, I really enjoy solving some manual problems after a day in the office. The way is the experience  ;).

Looking forward to see the final result!



Thanks Teg. Totally agree.  :)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Tomas on Sep 2nd, 2017 at 9:14pm
Hey Morphy,
I use a marudai. I get a much better quality braid from it and the patterns are far superior to what I've been able to achieve by hand.
My set up is really cheap but works well.
I picked a cheap, tallish stool and drilled a 1" hole in the middle. I then bought some glass spice jars (maybe like 2 Oz capacity?)and wrapped hockey tape around them for the cord to grip.
I then fill the jars with the appropriate amount of water for the cord I'm using. Thicker cord needs a heavier spice jar bobbin to get good and tight tension.
I find it a hard not to go too fast with the marudai. I'll get carried away and make a mistake and have to back track to fix it.
Also, the marudai is much better than the handheld thing.
I'm going to be very interest to see what you come up with with new toys

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Tomas on Sep 2nd, 2017 at 9:16pm
Sorry about the garbled sentence structure folks

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Sep 2nd, 2017 at 10:14pm
Not garbled at all and very timely. I literally just finished my prep of the cords and was about to put the bundles on my little kumihimo disc when I read your post.

I bought a 1or 2 gallon bucket at Lowes today and Im planning on cutting a hole in the bottom to use as a marudai. If it really is that much faster maybe I should go ahead and do it for this sling.

Man I tell you the prep involved with doing this is really long. I must be doing something wrong.  ;D Still really enjoying this. Cant wait to see more of your guy's slings to give me that little boost to get this first one done lol. Alright back to number 4.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Tomas on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 11:48am
It certainly does take a long time to measure and cut the string, wind the bobbins and generally set yourself up but you make the time back during the braid. The prep gets quicker with practice.
I've only used up to 8 strands effectively btw. After that it gets too crowded on my stool but I know if I got a wider stool that would solve the problem.

I have also tried splitting braids on it and it does work but it's harder to join back into the proper color placements to continue the pattern

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 3:27pm


Speaking of joining the threads back together. I set this 3rd attempt aside because of that. It looks worse in real life. At some point I will have to undo the braid and fix it but right now.... its time for Redneck Marudai.  :D



Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 4:45pm
:thumb: You're getting there.
I'm just trying to identify the pattern but I'm not completely sure.
16 string Kongo-Gumi? In groups of 2?

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 5:29pm
I dont know the name to be honest Teg. I googled kumihimo patterns, clicked images and scrolled down until I found one I liked.  What I found out on this one was that the pattern doesnt look nearly as good on thicker cords as it did on my test piece. So Im going a bit thinner.

Edit: It was 32 strands in groups of two so 16 pairs. Too thick for my tastes so I bought a much smaller diameter paracord for the core.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by vetryan15 on Sep 4th, 2017 at 7:16am
When u get to doing the pouch, could you explain how you do it? I been practicing but really haven't had good luck with doing it.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Sep 4th, 2017 at 8:15am
Although I have a little experience with 6-12 strand hand braiding, all of this stuff is new to me. I will try and post any relavant info on the pouch and other problem areas as I figure them out.

Our more experienced braiders could probably help more in this as well.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by vetryan15 on Sep 4th, 2017 at 1:25pm
Thanks,  my issue is usually the pouch and Timothy Potter's website is always down. So I can't tell any further.  Gonna probably wait till the winter to get more practice done. Since most of my time currently is dedicated to forging knives.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Tomas on Sep 4th, 2017 at 3:27pm
Nice Morphy!!!!

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Sep 4th, 2017 at 7:56pm

Tomas wrote on Sep 4th, 2017 at 3:27pm:
Nice Morphy!!!!


Thanks Tomas  :)



So here are my new bobbins or Tama(?) for the redneck marudai.
I really hope they arent too heavy. They actually are quite heavy... The cheap ones I bought at Hobby Lobby were way too light. If these dont work out Ill make them into sling ammo, so one way or the other they are destined to be something sling related.

That being said, I do have a question, and this is really bugging me. What kind of knot or technique do you guys use to keep your bobbins from unraveling when they are hanging on the marudai? Im currently using a half hitch and rubber bands and I keep thinking there has to be a better way.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Mersa on Sep 4th, 2017 at 9:34pm
Clove hitch should work or cut little grooves in the bolts to lock the thread in. Looking nice by the way

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Sep 5th, 2017 at 7:00am
http://www.facetjewelry.com/fiber-cord/how-to/2016/06/kumihimo-basics-kongoh-gumi-on-the-marudai-setup

This should help. This is also what I do for simple string bundles while fistbraiding.

Weight of tama: I've read about ~70 g per tama, give or take a bit depending on what you want to do. The counterweight for the braided part shall be around half of the total weight of all the tama. But don't quote me on that  ;).

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Sep 5th, 2017 at 12:23pm
I weighed my Manly Tamas yesterday and they came in at 80 grams so I guess that will work. I am finding the Marudai takes more skill than I originally thought. I thought at first I would just be copying the motion of the disc but there seems to be a lot more to it. 

Thanks to everyone for the encouraging words and helpful tips. Hopefully this thread will help others as well.


Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by walter on Sep 5th, 2017 at 6:34pm
Vetryan15, if you are 5 strand flat braiding you will have at least 2 strings per strand after you form the finger loop. When you get to the length of retention cord that you want and you have not spliced in any more strings, you will end up with a skinny  split.

I braid left to right meaning I start on the left side, braid over 2 strings, then take the far right string and pass it over the 2 strings to the left.
To start the split, I take the top bundle (2 strings) on the left and pass them over the next two bundles. Then I take half a bundle (1 cord) and pass it over to the left.

There are now five strings on each side, so you braid one side of the split and then the other.

To bring the spltis back together, end the left side with three strands facing left and two to the right. The right side two to the left and three to the right. Run the left side two facing right over and under the two facing left on the right side.
Now bring the top left string down over three, under one and over one. Tighten the braid and bring the top right bundle (2 strings) down and over two bundles. Continue braiding one over two.

This is how I do it. Lots of other ways.
Pic on left is front view; pic on right is back view (the side ammo rests on) In this pic it does not look like  the splits are side by side at the release end, but they are :-/
2017-09-05_14_38_06-1.jpg (16 KB | 33 )
2017-09-05_14_40_03-1.jpg (20 KB | 31 )

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by vetryan15 on Sep 6th, 2017 at 7:11am
Thanks Walter, it's greatly appreciated.  I will have a go at it soon. Thabks so much

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Jaegoor on Sep 6th, 2017 at 4:54pm
Morphy das Muster ist toll. Gibt es eine Anleitung?

Walter das Geflecht in der Mitte sollte die selbe Stärke haben. Nehmen sie Fäden zu ? Oder Teilen sie nur auf?

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Sep 6th, 2017 at 5:20pm
Jaegoor- Morphy's pattern is great. Is there any guidance?
Walter the braid in the middle should have the same strength. Do they accept threads? Or do they just share?


Thanks Jaegoor.

This is the set up.



I will say, and being an expert braider you probably know this already, but when I just used the 16 strands of embrodiery thread by themselves, it looked fantastic. The picture I posted above does not look as good, probably due to it being too thick a cord.

The braid is simple. Starting at 12 o clock and going clockwise Top right down, bottom left up, then the same all the way around. The clockwise facing thread always going across first then the opposing thread on the opposite side coming across on the other side.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by walter on Sep 7th, 2017 at 8:00pm
Jaegoor, by threads in the middle, I think you are refering to the final cross over before the split. When I braid a fiber sling, I add fiber so the two center strands are about the same diameter.


Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jan 17th, 2018 at 9:51am
I am currently working on weaving the pouch of the sling number 6 or 7. This is the farthest along I've brought one of these kumihimo slings.

I've had several I had to abandon due to the braiding not being perfect. I believe due to the type of core I was using in the cord which was having the braid pattern come out a little warped in places.

One thing I am noticing over and over is how much easier this whole process must be with tools specifically designed for certain parts. For example the set up process which takes me hours it seems. And of course the weaving as well.

Do any of you braiders out there have tools you use? If so, what are they and what would you suggest for the newly initiated braiders?

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Jan 17th, 2018 at 1:59pm
I use:
- cork board and pins for complex and fine stuff (e.g. horse hair)
- Warping pegs ( two 2 c clamps will do or a stool / small table upside down)
- anchor points for tensioning (in my case either safety pin and thick trousers, a table leg, your toes, ...)
- ~300 bobbins (piece of something with a hole, mine are wood, ~ 2 cm x 4.5 cm  x 0.7 cm with a hole, see picture on how to use)

and the usual assortment of scissors, knifes, needles, ...
bobbin_example.JPG (35 KB | 35 )

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jan 17th, 2018 at 9:45pm
Interesting to hear about your set up Teg. It seems like I can manage some decent designs with rudimentary tools. One thing I was thinking about was using a sewing machine to wind the bobbins quicker.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Logan757 on Jan 18th, 2018 at 3:13pm
http://www.slinging.org/articleimages/20/19.htm
I would just use this guide
notes
you don't need to Use six strands if you are using a strong material like 550cord. When braiding put the finger loop around something makes your life much easier. Your biggest problem is going to be the pouch be carful when you split the line and connect not to twist the pouch strings.
 

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jan 18th, 2018 at 3:26pm

Logan757 wrote on Jan 18th, 2018 at 3:13pm:
http://www.slinging.org/articleimages/20/19.htm
I would just use this guide
notes
you don't need to Use six strands if you are using a strong material like 550cord. When braiding put the finger loop around something makes your life much easier. Your biggest problem is going to be the pouch be carful when you split the line and connect not to twist the pouch strings.
 


Thanks Logan. Good stuff.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by vetryan15 on Jan 20th, 2018 at 10:47pm

Logan757 wrote on Jan 18th, 2018 at 3:13pm:
http://www.slinging.org/articleimages/20/19.htm
I would just use this guide
notes
you don't need to Use six strands if you are using a strong material like 550cord. When braiding put the finger loop around something makes your life much easier. Your biggest problem is going to be the pouch be carful when you split the line and connect not to twist the pouch strings.
 

I really like this tutorial,  but my issue is. I have problems with tge round braid. Not sure why, but I can't grasp the concept.  If someone could explain it. Greatly appreciated
Ryan

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:50am
@ Morpy: I forgot: freezer bag clamps. Helps while setting up or when storing works for some time.


vetryan15 wrote on Jan 20th, 2018 at 10:47pm:
I have problems with tge round braid. Not sure why, but I can't grasp the concept.


The appended picture may help. Flat: If you were to use a flat strip, always the same side stays up. "Round": Both sides can be seen from top.
Try it with paper. When you have to fold the paper, you are braiding flat. When braiding "round" you don't have to crease the paper.

Now replace your paper strip with parallel strings and there you go.

flat_vs_round.JPG (36 KB | 35 )

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 8:48am
@vetryan Easiest to start with is the 4 strand round braid. Once you get used to it a lot of the higher strand round braids are just a similar idea with more strands. I put off learning the round braid for awhile because it didn't quite click. Once you get it, it's easy.

@teg I've been using black binder clips and they don't work that well, may need to try out the freezer bag clamps.

So here's a couple more questions for anyone who cares to answer....

1. Say you are doing a normal round braid, if you secure the loop end to a swivel as you braid would it be less likely to have twist in the cord?

2. Do you believe that having a little twist in the cord leads to less accuracy?

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by vetryan15 on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:13pm
@teg thank you for tge information.  I tried out a couple tries today. Slowly kind of getting it. I actually got  Timothy Potter's website to work for me. So I been using those tutorials. 

@morphy I tried a few times in tge past,  but couldn't get it. Since I have been doing a basic 3 strand braid for  awhile now. I wanted to start branching off. I just tried 2x tonight, but keep getting distracted with life. Buy I am finally able to grasp it more.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jan 25th, 2018 at 5:32pm


This is a quick loom I put together today. I will probably end up modifying it once I've used it more and know what areas need to be tweaked. For right now it works well though and just needs a comb (not a brush) to separate the  warps (?) better. The brush has a handle on one side which causes it to fall towards the heavier side and tilts the warps a little. Still, gets the job done.

The cylindrical device at the top is a tensioner for clotheslines. It was a few dollars at Lowes and works great.

Any questions, comments or advice is welcome. This is all fairly new to me. I always wove sling pouches in the past with the retention and release tensioned between my thighs. This is a step up for sure.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Mersa on Jan 25th, 2018 at 9:41pm
Looking good morphy.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by kicktheotter on Jan 26th, 2018 at 6:42am
Awesome!

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by walter on Jan 28th, 2018 at 9:31pm
@ Morphy, tried round braiding hooked to a swivel today. I was braiding fast and a bit careless like maybe a novice would do. Got plenty of twist  in just 12 inches  :-/

The swivel did not cause the twist; did not prevent it either.

To prevent twisted cords, I think consistent tension and overlapping exactly below the previous overlap is the answer. Practice and Developing a braiding pace and rhythm helps too.

In the pic you can see close to a quarter twist in 12".
2018-01-28_19_33_40-1.jpg (12 KB | 36 )

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jan 29th, 2018 at 9:54am

walter wrote on Jan 28th, 2018 at 9:31pm:
@ Morphy, tried round braiding hooked to a swivel today. I was braiding fast and a bit careless like maybe a novice would do. Got plenty of twist  in just 12 inches  :-/

The swivel did not cause the twist; did not prevent it either.

To prevent twisted cords, I think consistent tension and overlapping exactly below the previous overlap is the answer. Practice and Developing a braiding pace and rhythm helps too.

In the pic you can see close to a quarter twist in 12".


Ahh I was hoping that would be an easy fix! :P

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Feb 5th, 2018 at 10:26am
Right now I'm beginning the release cord on my current sling. It's a 12 strand spiral braid over a 6 strand core. When tapering is it possible to continue using the 12 strands and just taper the core? That seems like it would be a lot easier but I don't want to cut the core strands only to find out later it's not going to work. Anyone have experience with this?

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Feb 5th, 2018 at 5:07pm
Yes, in general this should work. I never had issues while braiding free handed, mostly 6 strand round or 8 strand square, but I have never done that on a marudai or with a card.

Hints:
- reduce the core as smoothly as you can. If using thick strings as the core, consider removing parts of the strings if possible or, with paracord, partial gutting.
- If you use thin strings in the core, instead of cutting directly you can also pull it out of the core, let it dangle loose and cut close to the braid when finished. There is a risk of having an irregularity where the core left the braid.
- For me, braiding while tapering is easier when I had a good amount of tension, i.e. the mantle is dense and not springy.

As always: when not sure, make a sample. It's time well invested ;).

Also consider: What is the function of the core and where does it come from? Does it carry any load or is it more a filler / hiding place for no longer used threads? If it's the second option, don't worry as long as you taper smoothly. If it's the first option, then I would not do it or at least make a sample, braid tight and dense and leave the core long enough in there for sure.

There is also a little bit of something here: http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1509416090/0

Good luck!

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Feb 5th, 2018 at 5:14pm
With "carry any load" I also mean "keeps the mantle from stretching and showing gaps", i.e. a loose, and springy mantle.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by walter on Feb 5th, 2018 at 6:47pm
I think you would have to cut core strings to cause taper.  I slightly twist them, which keeps  the core round. Cut an inner core string. Braid on and cut an inner core string, braid on etc.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Feb 6th, 2018 at 9:58am
Thanks guys. A lot of good info here.

@Walter- Yep, that's what I was thinking. It seems foolproof...but so did the last 7 failed slings!  ;D Hence my emerging braiding paranoia. Cutting strings is an awfully permanant step so I wanted to see what you guys came up with.

@Teg- Yes, thanks. Tons of things to think about in that post. I had not considered the mantle stretching but playing around with the finished portion of the sling cord I can definitely see how that can happen.

One thing I didn't think about was possibly soaking this hemp jewelers cordage before using it. It's quite stiff and isn't as tight a braid as I would like. I wish I had done that but it's a bit too late now.  Oh well, I know next time. It still looks ok, and I have something to look forward to with the next sling.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by walter on Feb 6th, 2018 at 5:18pm
If that is polished jewlers cord you can run it through a ring or over a hook, pull it back and forth until you feel it limber up and then stretch it. A little work, but now it is just right to braid  ;)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jun 5th, 2018 at 9:10am
New question, and I promise it has nothing whatsoever to do with a possible new sling braiding project as I am totally not a sling braiding addict.

Would cotton crochet thread be suitable for braiding a sling? #10 crochet thread to be specific. It's quite cheap, comes in many colors and has a very thin diameter for large count braiding projects.

My one concern is that it's cotton and cotton stretches...like alot. Does anyone have anything good to say about cotton slings? Is it possible to induce a set into cotton to get rid of most of the stretch?

Thanks. (Asking for a friend.)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by kicktheotter on Jun 5th, 2018 at 11:02am
I've used cotton-based string a lot and they have basically no stretch. I have no idea of the processes used to make it but it's just twisted office string, absolutely nothing special.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jun 5th, 2018 at 1:37pm
My only experience with cotton is looking at it's properties for bow string manufacturing. I know it's too elastic for that but a bow string is also under a great deal more tension that a sling.

You haven't noticed any stretch with yours KTO? Might be worth a try if that's the case. Have you tried wool? What are your thoughts on it as far as how much stretch is allowable and how suitable it is for a sling?


Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by kicktheotter on Jun 5th, 2018 at 1:56pm
None at all for cotton but that is with cotton string. I don't know if other forms might stretch more. If you want I can send one over for you to take a look at and test out. They are so cheap and easy to make I have loads of spares :D

With wool, it does have significant stretch. The one wool sling I made was basically elastic. I made that using a braiding wheel and really it's just decorative. I don't think I've ever actually used it but just putting a stone in the pouch increases it's length noticeably. Completely impractical to use.

The Tibetan slings I have have less stretch but they still have some. I might be imagining it but I think they've lost some of that stretch with use. It's also a little hard to tell because they're so darn long. Overall they are definitely usable but they aren't as... efficient (?) as a paracord sling.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Jun 5th, 2018 at 2:08pm
I often use cotton yarn, so called "Schulgarn", for trying out things. Also I made a couple necklaces and other braids out of it. Until now I never noticed any excessive stretch. It works well, but is a tiny bit more slippery than wool, meaning more difficult to tighten.
It is 50g/200m, needle 2-3 (no idea if this is the same labeling as in your part of the world), mercerized. It is also typically used for crochet, sometimes for knitting.
The only sling I made (partly) with this yarn is in Walters possession. So you have to ask him how it stands up to abrasion  ::).

Points to consider for your friend:
- Thin threads make intricate braids and cause long working hours. Consider doubling or trippling your threads.
- When afraid of stretch, tension and tighten more while braiding. You can make braids that literally stand up straight (see pictures, made with the cotton yarn described above).

Looking forward to see your results! Sorry, your friends results of course  ;)

Handstand_lr.JPG (214 KB | 16 )
Planke_lr.JPG (130 KB | 18 )

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jun 7th, 2018 at 9:24am
Wow ! That's impressive Teg. Are you using heavy tama to achieve that or just lots of tightening?


Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Jun 8th, 2018 at 7:22am
I don't use tama or a marudai. Everything is braided freehanded / in the fist. It's just heavy tensioning and tightening while braiding. Give every thread a good pull before you manipulate it, especially the lower ones before you pass them over. Be careful not to rip the thread (especially with wool).

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:12pm
Right now I am at the transition between the pouch and the cord of a new sling. I'm going to tentatively call it the fades because this is the bowmaking terminology used for the transition from limb to handle. Has anyone here ever tried incorporating macrame into this section of the pouch itself?

It looks great but I have two possible reservations concerning it. One, it's incredibly final. I mean...youre tying knots. If you screw up it's not easy getting the knots undone. And I'm pretty amature at it so messing up seems likely.

Secondly, when put under tension the space in between the knots would  stretch leaving gaps right?

Anyways, this brings me back to my second question, has anyone experimented with *weaving* patterns into the fades or pouch instead of macrame and if so would you kindly point me in the right direction for learning about it? Thanks.  :)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Timothy Potter on Jun 14th, 2018 at 12:25am

Morphy wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:12pm:
Right now I am at the transition between the pouch and the cord of a new sling. I'm going to tentatively call it the fades because this is the bowmaking terminology used for the transition from limb to handle. Has anyone here ever tried incorporating macrame into this section of the pouch itself?

It looks great but I have two possible reservations concerning it. One, it's incredibly final. I mean...youre tying knots. If you screw up it's not easy getting the knots undone. And I'm pretty amature at it so messing up seems likely.

Secondly, when put under tension the space in between the knots would  stretch leaving gaps right?

Anyways, this brings me back to my second question, has anyone experimented with *weaving* patterns into the fades or pouch instead of macrame and if so would you kindly point me in the right direction for learning about it? Thanks.  :)


I haven't personally done macrame at the transition from pouch to cords, but I don't see a reason it wouldn't work, although if you tie macrame as slow as I do it may be more decorative than practical. If the stretch of the knots is a problem, maybe you could try tying the knots around a static core, if that works with the design of your sling.

-Timothy Potter




Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Jun 14th, 2018 at 4:31pm
Thanks Timothy, seems like it's worth looking into.  :)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Nov 20th, 2020 at 4:34pm


Just ordered this and a mini loom from some guy in Russia. Was I too hasty in doing this? Is 25 cm big enough for a maru dai for 32 strand braids? Seems kind of small for all those strands.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Teg on Nov 20th, 2020 at 4:42pm
25 cm for 32 bobbins/tama works, but it is right at the limit.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Nov 21st, 2020 at 2:43pm
Thanks Teg. So long as I can do 32 that should keep me busy for awhile. :)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by vetryan15 on Nov 21st, 2020 at 4:20pm
When my gf got into kumihimo, ( which she took it over when i wanted to learn it. But then gave up on it after 2 weeks. ) Lol. I picked these up for here. Which we now have a ton to last forever.  Eventually i will attempt to get back into it.

https://www.weircrafts.com/kumihimo/kumihimo-EZ-bobbins.html

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Nov 21st, 2020 at 5:38pm
Oh yes I have tons of those. I use them with the foam disks. I'm seriously considering putting little pinhole cameras below the mirror on the Maru Dai so I can look at a screen and see if the braid is coming along nicely. Yes, I am a major nerd.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by vetryan15 on Nov 21st, 2020 at 9:47pm
Thats a good idea, or use a mirror. Before we moved my gf had mirrors everywhere.  Would be a bit cheaper

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Nov 22nd, 2020 at 12:08pm

vetryan15 wrote on Nov 21st, 2020 at 9:47pm:
Thats a good idea, or use a mirror. Before we moved my gf had mirrors everywhere.  Would be a bit cheaper


And make far more sense. Good idea Vet.  ;)

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Kilisi on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 7:43am

Morphy wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:12pm:
Has anyone here ever tried incorporating macrame into this section of the pouch itself?

Yes, my daughter tried this with a wool sling, it looked really cool, but just didn't work. It went anywhere when throwing. Sometimes ok, other times not. No consistency, so I threw it away.

Title: Re: Sling Braiding Questions
Post by Morphy on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 7:48am

Kilisi wrote on Nov 23rd, 2020 at 7:43am:

Morphy wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:12pm:
Has anyone here ever tried incorporating macrame into this section of the pouch itself?

Yes, my daughter tried this with a wool sling, it looked really cool, but just didn't work. It went anywhere when throwing. Sometimes ok, other times not. No consistency, so I threw it away.



Ah ok well I can definitely see that being a problem with wool. Anytime I've done macrame with it it tends to stretch horribly. I have dyneema now which has almost no stretch under slinging conditions so hopefully that will do the trick.

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