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Message started by JudoP on Apr 6th, 2017 at 12:06pm

Title: Clay projectiles
Post by JudoP on Apr 6th, 2017 at 12:06pm
I've just had my first crack at making clay sling projectiles (see pictures).

I've made 32 in a wide variety of sizes, from 30g (1oz) upto 160g (5oz+). I've made most of them some variation of glande shaped and some round. I've also dimpled a few to see if I can replicate a golf ball effect.

Long term I think I'll try and find a good shape/size and then make a sort of clay cast so I can pump them out in large numbers. Already I can't wait to use these as my usual slinging spot has pretty bad stones and is running out fast.
clay1.jpg (3941 KB | 162 )
clay2.jpg (3664 KB | 115 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by kicktheotter on Apr 6th, 2017 at 1:33pm
Looking good. I'm guessing this is store bought clay? I want to have a go at clay ammunition but don't quite fancy stumping up the cash and there isn't anywhere around that has clay soil so I'm a bit stuck. It's been added to the pile labelled "Future Projects" :D

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by paleryder on Apr 6th, 2017 at 1:41pm
Did you measure the weight before and after drying? If so, how much weight did they lose after drying?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 6th, 2017 at 2:07pm
please resize your images.
some of us have crappy internet connections and 8mb in 2 pictures is ridiculous.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on Apr 6th, 2017 at 3:49pm
Those are nice. Are you planning on firing them? 

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on Apr 6th, 2017 at 4:12pm
CA. What size would be best?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by JudoP on Apr 6th, 2017 at 6:59pm
@Kick

I bought the clay online. Looked around for the cheapest option which turned out to be school clay. I got 20kg of it with delivery for about £15. Not too bad since it'll probably make around 300 decent sized projectiles.

@Pale

They aren't dry yet but I'll report back in a day or two

@CA

Will do, at some point my phone camera became good and I didn't realise...

@Morphy

Was planning to just air dry, I think I read something on here that if they air dried they retain a little moisture and therefore density.


Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on Apr 6th, 2017 at 8:18pm
I remember reading somewhere on here, that natural clay is best. Since its not pretty, hobby stores don't display it, but if you ask they might have some

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by slingbadger on Apr 7th, 2017 at 7:06am
I made natural clay glandes years ago. The clay had a lot of small pebbles and grit in it. When shattering, I imagine it would add to the chaos.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by JudoP on Apr 7th, 2017 at 1:59pm
I just got impatient and put them in the oven as they didn't appear to dry out that much overnight. 45 minutes at about 100 degrees C seemed to do the trick.

I've had about 15% loss of mass from what they were when fresh. Looking good though! Will report back when I've chucked a few.

I've also picked up a golf ball and am planning to make a golf ball mould so I can make clay golf balls.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 7th, 2017 at 3:24pm

Drakolith wrote on Apr 6th, 2017 at 4:12pm:
CA. What size would be best?


I usually go for 800x600.
plenty of detail and loads real quick.

The only reason you can load such large files at all is because over the years I've upped the size limit for things like video and pdf files. Unfortunately It won't let me just restrict jpgs.

Couple resizing programs in this post - I also have one on my android tablet I use. that I'll stick a link to when I get round to it.   
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1258292684

I did try and make a golfball mould a while back - but it just kept crashing my cad program.

I'm currently thinking moulds are too slow and fiddly.
Might be simpler to make a shaped 2 part rolling mould and clay measure. That way you could turn out perfectly identical clay missiles in a couple seconds.

Let you know when I've decided on  a final design and printed some test parts :-) 

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on Apr 7th, 2017 at 4:09pm
Thanks CA

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 8th, 2017 at 1:46pm
I use dug clay for glandes because there aren't any rock naturally closer than 30 miles (60km) away.

You don't need pottery grade clay, if it sticks together and dries without cracking, that's all you need.  If it has small pebbles in it, that will cause problems if you plan to fire it but not if you air dry it.  And I put a batch in the oven at a temp just below boiling, usually overnight before use.  And if you put them in the oven over night, you can fire them in a fire the next day.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by JudoP on Apr 9th, 2017 at 2:26pm
Went shooting with them today, overall I'm quite impressed with the balls but the glandes didn't quite work as well as I thought. It seemed to take them so long to orient correctly in the air that often they barrelled into the ground or lost significant speed before that point. It's possible I made most of them a bit too pointy/unstable though as I was trying to really stretch the limits. Will go for more 'fatter' american football style next time and see if it works better.

In fairness when one did orient it just appeared to abruptly stop falling and move instead in a straight horizontal line.

The plain clay spheres worked great though, every distance shot I went for, the ball actually went out of sight significantly before landing. I got a very impressed dog walking couple comment "Where did it even go!?" and "Whoaah".

In terms of durability they were fine, only the stupidly large glandes ended up disintegrating as they bounced across the ground from duff throws, although any contact with a solid surface will obviously shatter the shot into a million pieces.

Weight wise I think the best projectiles were around 100 grams pre-fired meaning around 85 grams as thrown or just a smidgen over 3oz. May need further experimentation on this though.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by kicktheotter on Apr 10th, 2017 at 6:50am
What style of throw were you using? I would imagine the throw would affect how they are leaving the pouch which would affect their orientation.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 10th, 2017 at 7:24am
about halfway through a shaped roller design.
Probably have some time to do more tonight.

Anybody know how to work out the volume of an ovoid ?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by JudoP on Apr 10th, 2017 at 3:48pm
I was primarily using a mix of fig 8s and sidearm, though neither seemed to outperform the other. This with the glande lying across the pouch, pointy bits out of the sides.

CA, for a regular sort of ovoid I think it is as the sphere formula- 4/3(pi)r^3 but instead of r^3 you use the radius along each axis. So it ends up being 4/3(pi)x r1 x r2 x r3.

Not sure if it's irregular though. Might make more sense if you look on the wiki page as there is a nice diagram.


Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 12th, 2017 at 4:11pm
My original thought was to work out the volume and then make a square frame of that volume to measure the starting amount of clay in.   
But after thinking about the maths figured that was way way too complicated.

So the easiest way I reckon is to make the first glande the long way by adding a little clay at a time.
Then when you've got it right - weigh it. And use that weight for all the rest.
Which is quick and simple

Currently printing a trial roller for small 30x15mm glandes.

The idea is the sticky up tabs at the ends keep the thing centered while allowing you to slide it almost the entire length of the bed.
I figure stick a weighed lump in the middle and then roll back and forth with gentle presure till the edges meet.
Should give you perfect glande every time and be pretty quick.

It's a parametric script so i can generate any sized glande, Well within reason, I have to be able to print it :-)
Just tell it the length and centre diameter and it generates everything else from those two measurements.



glanderoller.JPG (60 KB | 52 )
30x15glande.JPG (17 KB | 44 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 12th, 2017 at 4:16pm
I did make a glande press mould that had pointy ends, so if this works might do a pointy glande version as well.



But press moulds are slow and a pita. Plus the central join isn't great. I figure the rollers should produce better glandes faster.
we'll see.

The only advantage I can see in the moulds is that you can add text:



That said, I can produce printed text that you just press into the rolled glande. So no biggee.

pointy roller done.
pointyroller.JPG (39 KB | 68 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on Apr 12th, 2017 at 5:05pm
Wow. That's really cool CA.  I wonder if this would work for concrete?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 12th, 2017 at 5:07pm
can't see why not.
You just need a fairly stiff mix. Minimal slumpage :-)

test set nearly done.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 12th, 2017 at 5:54pm
Well that works quite well. With these i didn't weigh, just guessed. Still quite quick.
Oh yeah i use play doh for testing :-)
And the clay i had has gone hard anyway.
IMG_20170412_224552-800x600.jpg (93 KB | 63 )
IMG_20170412_224653-800x600.jpg (97 KB | 51 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by kicktheotter on Apr 13th, 2017 at 3:46am
Awesome!

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 13th, 2017 at 6:19am
pointy script needs a couple tweaks and I think I have to calibrate my build plate. It's been about 6 months.
But other than that, good to go :-) 

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on Apr 13th, 2017 at 8:01am
I can't believe how well that thing works.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 13th, 2017 at 11:11am
have to admit, I was pleased.

just printing a small pointy slider.
Then I think I'll do a small sphere one (30mm anyway), just to have the whole set :-)
Oh yeah need to add text to the things as well.


Then I'll do a little video and open up for orders :-)

have to see about getting some clay as well. And write the text imprint script.

And print a bigger one and work out what they'll cost.

It's way faster than the press moulds and I think the result is better as well. I always found that removing the glabndes from the moulds stretched them out of shape. The rolled ones are all absolutely bang on.

Dunno why i didn't think of this years ago.  Think I'm coming up for 3 years with the 3d printer.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by vetryan15 on Apr 13th, 2017 at 5:50pm
I would buy one, that is freaking awesome

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 14th, 2017 at 6:39am
No point in the sphere roller. Almost as good and a lot quicker to do them by hand.
Oh and if you're making something that relies on smooth sliding - don't add protuding text to the sides :whistle:
yeah, not much joined up thinking going on last night.

once i've changed the text to voids rathet than sticky out bits - think we're pretty much done. Might make the guides bit thicker in the larger moulds. But that's pretty much it :-)
might add handles, might not.
IMG_20170414_113211-800x600.jpg (106 KB | 45 )
IMG_20170414_113218-800x600.jpg (99 KB | 42 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on Apr 14th, 2017 at 12:18pm
Put me on the interested buyer list!

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 14th, 2017 at 1:41pm
Going to measure the clay glande uwe gave me a couple years back and make one that size tonight and see how big a roller would be for the monster glandes christian uses.

A sort of inadvertent bonus is that if you add extra clay you get a flattened glande. The motd clay the flatter it becomes, but keeps the shape. Dunno how useful that is, but it's a genuine undocumented user feature :-)

You could also probably roll a couple at a time as i've made the roller a little longer.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by jlasud on Apr 15th, 2017 at 8:46am
I thought about a clay gland roller, like 2 years ago, but, I was in doubt that it work well in reality, so never made one. Good job C.A.!  Still, needs a clay mass production test to tell, if it works well or not. You could use a cookie cutter method for portioning the right amount of clay, as it's critical,to roll good glans. Also, the clay has to be of right consistency, so it doesn't stick, or isn't too hard to roll. A bit of oil, on the surface of the roller,would definitely help,but may not be necessary.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 15th, 2017 at 10:51am
Figure just weighing, probably quick. But could just make one and then form that into oblong and measure it. And make cutter that size.
that way you could make them in the field, as it were, without a scales.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 16th, 2017 at 8:19am
@jlasud - good to see you around the forum. How about coming to the international next year ?

As far as rolling clay goes. The plastic is fairly nonstick. I don't envisage that being a problem and you can just rinse the clay off before putting away.
This looks like the clay I've been using. It dries fairly hard but will just dissolve in rain so doesn't damage anything or leave hard sharp shards around. 

Price doesn't look too bad and we don't have any decent craft stores round her any more.
Just bought terracotta colour bag: https://www.amazon.co.uk/12-5kg-Scola-Airdrying-Air-Clay/dp/B00G5RG1AA/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1492344951&sr=8-17&keywords=air+dry+clay

If you go for 70 gm glandes
That's 178. 
So around 8 pence each

Just started printing a 30x60 roller.
Should be about ideal for distance glandes.


60x30.png (35 KB | 66 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 16th, 2017 at 12:14pm
Just had  a play with one half and some doh. You might just be able to make these with one half and use your hand to roll.

Would certainly make them cheaper and easier to use. Plus you could actually make different sizes from the one mould.
Hmmm.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 17th, 2017 at 11:05am
The evolution of this is quite interesting.

For the larger glandes, you either need a longer roller or no legs stopping it half way.
The no legs hand roller, works well and produces glandes better than you could do just by hand, but not as good or as quick as two halves.

So I'm going back to the original idea I had which was to have a tongue and groove system. This would allow you to use one half as a hand roller and also use two halves for better precision.
I just like to try a universal half approach first.

But if these are going to be dual use guess printing two seperate parts isn't an issue :-)

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 17th, 2017 at 12:21pm
New designs.

Tongue and groove

Should be able to get both on build platform together. This is a 50x25 glande

Hopefully this shouild be the last revision.
The groove part allows you to hand roll in the mould and the tongue and groove allow full length rolling for faster 2 part moulding.
This is also a much stronger design. I've met a lot of slinger, the stiky up arms on the previous models would probably not last long :whistle:
The full length tongues should be much much harder to break - that is NOT a challenge ! :-)


If you think how many iterations I've gone through in a few days and how long just one would take if you were using traditional manufacturing methods.
The whole cad+fused filament fabrication is amazing.

My tassimo coffee machine is probably the only thing I own that I would miss more than the 3d printers.
Both would get replaced as fast as humanly possible if they died.

Everything else I own. Not so much lol
tongue.png (24 KB | 42 )
groove.png (27 KB | 51 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on Apr 17th, 2017 at 12:36pm
What about one that makes golf ball dimples for the modern refined slinger? You know...for when you are rolling glandes in between wine tastings?  :)

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 17th, 2017 at 12:44pm
yeah, the golf ball dimple thing is a real bastard.
The problem with openscad is that if you have a LOT of facets - it crashes.
A standard golfball has between 500 and 640 ish dimples. (I did look it up at the time)
That many spheres crashes the program.
Been a while since I've played - and I've learned a few tricks since then.
So probably could do it.

Not sure how much the sliding/rolling method would take the impression. More of a press mould thing.

Hmm. So I could make a dimpled press mould the same size as the rolled glande, which would take the usual hassle out of press moulds and give you clean dimples.
The other issue is that I make a spherical golfball and then stretch it to form the glande shape. It would be beyond my basic maths capability to work out how to add the dimples AFTER I stretched the sphere.
Hell just making these things fully parametric confuses the hell out of me when I look back at the equations.
Here's an example:

Quote:
translate([-gl/2-rs,0,-bt]) cube([gl+2*rs,ls,(gd/2)+bt]);

And all that does is make the basic cube that everything else gets taken away from or added to.
The more parametric functions you add - the worse it gets.
So at the moment I can change: glande length and diameter. base and wall thickness, mould length. tongue and groove widths - independently - thickness and width of the - now redundant - arms and the rim (edge round the roller groove) width and height.

Because of the way my mind works it all makes sense at the time. But if I look at it next week, I will absolutely no bloody clue whatsoever without a lot of refiguring.

Change any one of those and the script automatically resizes everything effected so that no matter what the mould size is everything always lines up.

The simplest way is to make a dimple press. So you mould the glande and then press your own indentations in. That way you get clean dimples and can experiment with different patterns.

Could you really be arsed ? Not sure I could.
But I'll happily make the kit if anyone wants to buy it :-) 

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on Apr 17th, 2017 at 2:10pm
"Could you really be arsed ? Not sure I could.
But I'll happily make the kit if anyone wants to buy it"

Heck ya.  ;D I've got target slinging goals that have been shelved for a few years because I am simply too lazy to hand make glandes that are good enough to push me to the next level.   If I can find a mix that is dense enough that will still work with this and be cheap enough to lose a few thousand, that would be great. My goal for some time has been to reach near Olympic Recurve level slinging accuracy (or die trying). But that's not really possible unless what you are using is extremely refined ammo. And it takes a lot of them. Hence my extreme interest in Curious Advark Designs.  :D.

Any idea on price or is it too soon for that?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 17th, 2017 at 5:53pm
Still thinking about pricing.
Will let you know when i'm happy wiith the rollers.

Still few tweaks needed. :-)
Plus having a bastard of a job getting a good print at the moment.
Not sure what i've done - but the buggers won't stay flat.
It's annoying me, so I'll sort it lol

meanwhile have a think on what sort of size and shape you want.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by kicktheotter on Apr 18th, 2017 at 1:55pm
I have to say, I've been put off even attempting clay glandes just because I felt it was too much effort but these are peaking my interest...

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 19th, 2017 at 6:55am
should have some clay (27lb bag of nylon fibre reinforced air dry modelling clay) coming today.
So this evening I'll hopefully be able to roll some 60x25 glandes and work out the best way to make a correct volume cookie cutter type measuring thing.
(huh - just worked it out as I was typing).
weigh a cubic centimetre to get the density of the clay.
weigh a glande and work out volume from that.
Once I've got a few different sizes worked out probably be able to apply a simpler calculation to the actual glande dimensions.
cool :thumb:

Cracked getting a clean print. Stand the buggers on end and put a narrow brim round the bottom. Plus that way I can make larger ones and get more sets on the printer at once if necessary.

Pretty much just got to work out the measuring and put a little handle on the text imprinter.
Also came up with a way to change the shape last night, so will try that as well.
A line of text to imprint will be free with a roller set. All I've done so far is Christians: XIII and - of course: UP YOUR ARSE !
Might be worth doing that in greek as well - different language on each side of the glande :-)

The play doh glandes are really impressive and the tongue and groove makes it a lot faster and easier too.

All in All I'm well pleased with what I've done over easter.  :sausage:



Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by vetryan15 on Apr 19th, 2017 at 8:57am
I can't wait to see the final product.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 22nd, 2017 at 11:01am
Right some more pics.
Got clay :-)

The small ones (30x15) were printed base flat - which is why you can see banding on the glandes.
From now on they'll be printed standing on end which not only prints slightly quicker but gives a smooth profile so you won't get any banding.

The larger ones are 60x25. I've been doing it by weight as it's quick (43.34gms). Using a cheap set of jewellers scales.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Scales/Ascher-Portable-Digital-Back-lit-Weighing/B01FQHE25U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492872877&sr=8-1&keywords=jewellery+scales

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Pocket-Jewellery-Backlit-Screen/dp/B00VPMQWSG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1492872937&sr=8-2&keywords=jewellery+scales


The one currently being printed in the picture is a 50x25 pointy mould. Curious to see how that works with the clay.

The one with the broken end was the first one I did. Dropped it on the concrete floor of my workshop after a day drying to see hat would happen. It broke :-) I also used it for txt testing.

I've adjusted the text stamps so the letters are slightly further apart which should give cleaner, sharper imprints.
But these pics were taken using the old spacing.
'up your arse !' - proved  a bit long. And involved rocking to get it all on (see last pic). So I reduced it to a simple: UP YOURS !


30x25-flat_774x600.jpg (74 KB | 69 )
clay_494x600.jpg (51 KB | 61 )
60x25s_317x600.jpg (27 KB | 60 )
printingpointy_800x600.jpg (52 KB | 80 )
text-stamps_800x600.jpg (55 KB | 76 )
first-60x25.jpg (25 KB | 52 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 22nd, 2017 at 11:14am
Current method is to weigh glay. form into a rough barrel shape by hand.
Roll it on the groove half by hand till it's roughly the right size and then finish off with both halves.
Haven't yet decided if a fast or slow slide works best. mainly because so far I've always used both :-)

Probably taking a minute or so per at the moment.
Pretty sure that with use you would work out a better and faster way.

Now i just need to work out some mathematical link between the glande measurements and the weight and/or volume..
If you could work out the weight from the dimensions - would make life easier. Plus My clay weighs 2g per cubic cm.
So can use that to work out volume.

And before you ask - no I haven't slung one yet.
Need to let them dry out for a few days first i reckon.

I'll have a go on monday. 

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on Apr 22nd, 2017 at 11:36am
What exactly is causing the need to roll them by hand first?  Is the clay too difficult to work until it's close to the correct shape? 

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 22nd, 2017 at 12:11pm
50x25 pointy


50x25-pointy_395x600.jpg (28 KB | 49 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 22nd, 2017 at 12:17pm

Morphy wrote on Apr 22nd, 2017 at 11:36am:
What exactly is causing the need to roll them by hand first?  Is the clay too difficult to work until it's close to the correct shape? 


Just quicker.
Easiest to start with either a rough ball or rough lozenge.
Plus if you roll it as an irregular lump, it doesn't really roll. Kind of smears and splits.
This clay is pretty stiff.
Plus if it's too far off the actual finished length. the ends tend to open up for some reason.

Could be down to my using slightly too little or slightly too much clay.

I also get a better and quicker result by tilting the slider and gradually bringing it level while rolling. rather than having it level and pushing down on the whole thing at once - if that makes sense.

The pointy ones were pretty quick.

basically - like anything - it's down to practice and developing a best practice technique. Which I probably haven't done yet.

The play doh is much easier - that's a lot softer. So that's probably a factor.


I made some paratha's last week (shallow fried flat bread). First couple weren't great. By the last one I had it down to a fine art.
Just practice :-) 

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 4:39pm
Okay today I added the Guam style shape.

I know it looks like the ends go inwards - it's just an optical illusion the lines are dead straigtht.

Haven't done the guam mould yet - bu that's pretty straightforward - getting the actual shape was the bastard. 
It's as close to my coral 'stone' as I can get.
slingstone_styles.JPG (36 KB | 46 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 23rd, 2017 at 4:52pm
Guam mould.
Going to make one the same size as my coral sling missile.
guammould.JPG (39 KB | 36 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 24th, 2017 at 8:06am
Not bad match considering the coral was hand carved and is battle damaged. :-)
tmp_21419-IMG_20170424_125157-800x600-26087839.jpg (98 KB | 44 )
tmp_21419-IMG_20170424_125234-800x600970548540.jpg (83 KB | 44 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Apr 27th, 2017 at 9:44am
Adjusted the length.
It's now 2x glande diameter plus 20 mm. Adds an hour or so to printing time - but makes it long enough to get a complete roll fairly easily.
For example the 60x35 I'm just printing will take over 5 hours.

I found with the big guam roller that it wasn't really long enough for such a big lump of clay.

This way they'll all be proportional to the size of the actual glande.

There's no shortcut to taking time with the first one to get the right weight of clay.

Currently sticking with just the three shapes, but open to anything that anyone wants.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on May 8th, 2017 at 2:00pm
Any updates on this? Are you still planning on selling them?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 8th, 2017 at 4:20pm
yep pretty much finished design and testing.

Final parts are 20mm longer than 2x the diameter. It's now entirely parametric, so length is now proportional to the glande diameter.
Last one was 60x35 (first with the new length settings), rolled real quick and easy. Slow roll with gentle pressure worked really well. Guessed damn near right amount of clay first time and took about 10 seconds to roll it.
The extra length made a noticeable difference.

Got new filament supplier www.3dexfilament.co.uk who sells a couple of filaments coloured with metal powder. Copper and aluminium.

About as close to metal looking as you can get.
Stuff isn't cheap but if anyone wants a metal looking mould, filament is on order :-)
I don't have enough sample filament to print a mould. But printed a couple of nut and bolt sets.
The aluminium bolt is on my balearic target centre. In the 'flesh' as it were it looks a lot more metallic.
The copper one is nest to a piece of copper pipe and is virtually identical in both colour and sheen.

I'll generate some images showing the three launch design shapes and how different ratios of length to diameter effects the shapes and set up a seperate thread in the mall section.

I honestly have no bloody clue on pricing. And as my accountant will tell you, I also have no clue what other people are prepared to pay for stuff. Being generlly skint myself, I always underestimate stuff.

p&p should be Around £3-5 for one,
If I follow the guidelines people have told me: ie: design time plus print time plus material cost. They work out stupidly expensive.
So I'm aiming for a sensible middle ground.

Price per mould. Somewhere around the £10 mark i was thinking. Larger ones - obviously - more than smaller ones.  And an extra £3-4 for the metallic ones (the filament is around 3x more expensive than normal pla and while the filament cost is the least of the expense, it does make a noticeable difference with the premium stuff).
I can also offer moulds in pet-g for a small extra cost - probably £2. If anyone is planning on using some substance that eats pla.  I have no idea what that might be - but it's an available option should it be required.

Discount available for more than one mould
They are simple looking things, but made with engineering precision - and each one is custom made.

While not indestructible, they are extremely durable and should last for many years with a little care.
Don't drop from a great height on a concrete floor. That said I've bounced a couple on the concrete floor of my workshop with no problems. I'm just not recommending it :-)
Don't hit with hammers or drive over with your car or let your dog chew them.   

I'll throw in 1 text stamp free with each mould. Short words or phrases work better than long ones. But I'm not putting  a character limit on it. If it's too long to get a clean impression - I told you so :-)

So that's what I'm thinking at the moment.

Other pricing suggestions and justifications welcome :-)   

Is that too cheap ? Do you think it's too expensive.
I've been self employed for nearly 25 years and never had much money - so I genuinely have no idea what other people think is a reasonable price for anything.
Let alone something completely unique like this.

Be gentle with me :whistle:

cu-al-bolts_800x600.jpg (62 KB | 33 )
copper-bolt_800x600.jpg (57 KB | 29 )
alu-bolt1_800x600.jpg (54 KB | 23 )

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 8th, 2017 at 4:33pm
Oh yeah I'll also hold a launch competition.

Names out of a hat (or bowl) for free mould inc p&p.  Just don't tell my accountant - she despairs at me for giving stuff away as it is :-)

And as it's free it'll probably be the 60x35 test mould.
Uses 84 gms of my modelling clay and drops to around 65 when dry.
Other clays may vary :-)

And all payments via paypal.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on May 8th, 2017 at 5:54pm
13 dollars for us Americans. Thats very reasonable. I cant speak for anyone else but to me this is a big deal. I find that the biggest impediment to target slinging is good ammo. Its nothing to make 100 shots and sling them in 45 minutes. With half gone in weeds almost immediately. Time-wise that begins to add up pretty quickly. Can't wait to get one.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by vetryan15 on May 8th, 2017 at 6:52pm
I am really interested in picking one or two of these bad boys. I need more practice with consistent ammo.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on May 8th, 2017 at 6:56pm
I completely agree with you Morphy.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by kicktheotter on May 9th, 2017 at 7:51am
I might well be interested as well. I've been wanting to try out clay ammo and this does look damn perfect.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on May 9th, 2017 at 8:20pm
I was wondering if mixing metal dust, shavings, scrap etc in the clay (to add weight) would still have the roller working well? Or would that scratch up the roller? And would it be hazardous to use lead powder? I think it would be as it makes me think it could get in your pores and be absorbed.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on May 9th, 2017 at 8:53pm
I think lead powder should remain in the same catagory as depleted uranium. Definitely not safe. You can buy small metal bbs in large amounts. Thats the direction Im thinking as far as adding density. Just not with clay.  Im going to be experimenting with different mixes to see if I can get a relatively cheap, easy to use, durable and dense shot. If I find anything decent Ill be sure and post it.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on May 9th, 2017 at 9:01pm
Yeah. Alright. I have a feeling once CA starts selling these some stores are going to be bought out of clay  ;D

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 18th, 2017 at 7:12am
Sorry for delay currently distracted by new project: building a big delta printer.
http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.php?29838-Heaven-help-me-I-ve-just-bought-a-delta-kit-)

With luck I'll get that done over the weekend and then post the purchase thread for the moulds.

Did I ned another 3d printer ?
No.
Do I need the experience of building one from scratch - yes.
Can a delta printer do stuff that my current cartesian type machines can't ? Oh Yeah !

Will the new printer by really cool to watch running - definitely !

Will it actually work ?
I have no idea lol  But at that price and build volume I just caved in.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on May 19th, 2017 at 12:59pm
Once you start 3d printing a new printer the circle of life will be complete.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 19th, 2017 at 2:15pm
Lol only one printed part in this one, and that came with it, but i am reprinting it for better quality.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on May 21st, 2017 at 11:45pm
Question: when we want to harden the clay, would a normal oven work?  Or would we need a kiln?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by kicktheotter on May 22nd, 2017 at 5:01am
If you get air-drying you won't need either. My understanding as well is that they're better a bit wet as the water adds mass and weight.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by JudoP on May 22nd, 2017 at 5:47am
I put mine in the oven at a lowish temp for 45 minutes-1 hour.

Never had the patience to wait for air drying.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 22nd, 2017 at 7:13am
The modelling clay I use will harden overnight, I usually put them on a piece of card on top of a radiator.

As far as normal clay goes. No idea never used it  :-)
Experiment.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by vetryan15 on May 25th, 2017 at 8:38pm
Any updates  CA?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 26th, 2017 at 7:04am
yeah, back to normal. I'll get the thread up this weekend.

Just printing mods for the delta now.

:-)

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by vetryan15 on May 26th, 2017 at 11:16am
Looking forward to it

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Drakolith on May 26th, 2017 at 11:18am
I live by a man made lake. I wonder if I could find clay along the bank... although, I'm not quite sure what to look for.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on May 26th, 2017 at 2:52pm

Quote:
I'm not quite sure what to look for.


Clay  :whistle:

It's like mud, but smoother and stickier.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on May 26th, 2017 at 5:44pm
Lots of places in the US have clay. Here in Eastern Texas the soil is all clay pretty much. Out west it was very sandy. Pick some up and mess around with it. Clay has a very distinctive feel and you will know right away if it is.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jun 1st, 2017 at 11:37am
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1496247190/0#0

We are now open for business :-)

ps. I don't know if cat litter works, but it is a sort of clay, anyway it was Fred's idea. :whistle:

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by TobyAttle on Jun 8th, 2017 at 6:11pm
I used cheap clay from a hobby shop to make clay glandes. I baked a few and sun dried the rest. They flew very well and I was able to achieve great distances with them, but a recurring problem I had was the clay breaking apart in the pouch or after the release. Does anybody have clay recipes or ideas to help make the clay stronger?

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by JudoP on Jun 9th, 2017 at 4:49am
I've never had any trouble with clay breaking on exit from pouch. It can often even sustain the landings with minimal damage provided the ground is soft. Of course, hit anything solid and it's basically vaporized.

I use cheap school clay and bake in the oven till rock hard.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on Jun 9th, 2017 at 7:34am
Sounds like there is something going on with the clay itself if its breaking in the pouch.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by wanderer on Jun 9th, 2017 at 10:13am
I can only think that your clay is not good enough, which would be a surprise.

Clay should be able to support any reasonable forces due to launch or spin, particularly when dried, unless there are flaws in it for some reason.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by TobyAttle on Jun 11th, 2017 at 1:41am
The problem with the clay breaking in the pouch only happened with the sun- dried clay. The baked clay I actually ricocheted off a rock and it only chipped off a piece. The clay I sun dried I did so for about 50 hours. I wonder if this was not long enough or the type of clay I used was not compatible with sun drying because it was meant to be put into a kiln. I used varied shapes, some I made very long and thin, and those seemed to have the most trouble with breaking in the pouch. For my next batch I will make sturdier rugby-ball shaped glandes, because those seemed to have the most success.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by jlasud on Jun 11th, 2017 at 4:53am
If it brakes at launch, it has cracks in it. Serious cracks . Or the clay isn't worked properly kneaded.  If dried too fast, it develops cracks. Small pebbles will cause cracks too. By clay I mean clay. not some new age clay :D

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jun 11th, 2017 at 6:57am
the stuff I use is specifically made to air dry. It's got lots of little fibres mixed in that help with dried strength.
Normal clay probably needs to be baked a bit :-)

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by kicktheotter on Jun 12th, 2017 at 6:50pm
Courtesy of one of my very favourite websites, Propnomicon, I've found this tutorial on making quick, cheap air drying clay. It's intended for craft purposes and I haven't tried this myself (only found out about it a few moments ago in fact) but this might be something to look into. I for one am somewhat put off by the price of clay so this could be a good alternative.

http://propnomicon.blogspot.fi/2012/06/quick-and-dirty-air-drying-clay.html

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jun 14th, 2017 at 10:14am
that stuff she makes is way more expensive than than the clay i use and after an awful lot of effort she ended up with less than a pound pva 'clay'.
It's basically a sort of homemade polymer clay.
It'll also be fairly lightweight.

for the record judop works in a school. Those of us who don't,  don't have access to school clay :-)

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Morphy on Jun 14th, 2017 at 1:47pm
Ive seen large blocks of clay in college supply stores. The same place you go to get sketch pads or other sundrys for class. Not sure if that is common or unique to the place I was at. Luckily those of us who live in the gulf coast area arent exactly hurting for sources of clay.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jun 14th, 2017 at 2:42pm
you'd think with burton having a college and art courses there wouold be somwehere in the town to buy art supplies.
But there isn't.

If you look online it brings a shop up - alas it turned into a charity shop for the air ambulance about  a year ago.

And with things being as they are these days you can't just wander round acollege looking for the art department and ask someone if you can buy clay off them. You have to get security badges on lanyards and appointments, and I just can't be arsed.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by JudoP on Jun 14th, 2017 at 3:18pm
I moved on from teaching a couple of months ago- it's a pretty terrible career choice right now, at least in the UK. I'm going back to university in September for hopefully brighter pastures!

That school clay I actually bought online (I presume they supply schools). You can get 20kg delivered for about £15 IIRC.

http://www.potterycrafts.co.uk/Products/00270003/P1341

If you can pick up from somewhere you will probably save a decent amount since carriage of 20kg forms a significant proportion of the cost.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Parmenion on Jun 17th, 2017 at 12:31pm
has anyone tried something similar?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGecljP-ge0

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jun 17th, 2017 at 12:59pm
the air dry clay I bought was a little cheaper I think.
You can always get some cement and mix it with sand and pva glue. Should be able to get it stiff enough to roll.
That;s extremely cheap.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Bill Skinner on Jun 17th, 2017 at 6:53pm
Anything past about the 2:30 mark is extra work if all you are going to do is make glandes out of it.

I just dig up the clay, knead it until it's uniform, then make my glandes.  I cheat a little, I put mine in the oven overnight to dry them out.  Put the temp below boiling and you should be good to go.  If the clay cracks, then lower the heat a bit. 

If you put them in the sun, they will crack because the side in the sun will dry faster than the other and shrink up faster, which will cause cracks.  So dry them in the shade.  Which will take a lot longer.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by andy1962 on Jun 20th, 2017 at 12:30am

Kick wrote on Apr 6th, 2017 at 1:33pm:
Looking good. I'm guessing this is store bought clay? I want to have a go at clay ammunition but don't quite fancy stumping up the cash and there isn't anywhere around that has clay soil so I'm a bit stuck. It's been added to the pile labelled "Future Projects" :D

Hey mate what is awesome job, how long it took you to make em ? )) unfortunately for me all my time goes to https://onlinepharmacyreviews.org as i have some health issues, unfortunately. but i'm still interested.

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by Parmenion on Jun 27th, 2017 at 10:58am
i think i've found clay , but its dry how can i make it workable again?
it is as hard as rock.
leaving it soak  for days doesn't seem to help a lot .

Title: Re: Clay projectiles
Post by wanderer on Jun 27th, 2017 at 12:05pm

johan wrote on Jun 27th, 2017 at 10:58am:
i think i've found clay , but its dry how can i make it workable again?
it is as hard as rock.
leaving it soak  for days doesn't seem to help a lot .


Crush it before you soak it. If you can't crush it, it's not likely to be clay.

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