From a recent visit to the Metropolitan Museum in New York city, a bunch of lead bullets from Cyprus (Cessnola collection). Most are of the familiar type (about the size of your first thumb-joint), and must weigh about 30g (one is broken). One, however, is much bigger, and might weigh 150+g. It might have been used with a sling as a super-slug, or, perhaps, as Tracy Rihll has proposed, for use in a catapult or similar war engine.

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That's for taking down elephants and not even breaking a sweat!

Thanks Theoros! Your historical contributions to this site are awesome.

:D Nice! Dexai!

staff sling maybe ?

150gm might be heavy for a lead sling bullet, but it's still well within the weight range most slingers can use in  ahand sling without hurting themselves.
Hell it's lighter than just about all the stones the balearic guys use :-)

And it would great for a staff sling.

I'm guessing it'd be for taking down armoured troops or mounted troops - that'd cripple a horse no matter where it hit.

Ich suche slingstones in Form eines tropfen.  Gibt es Bilder?

Nie gesehen ! Nur eichelförmig

Doch es gibt sie. Auf einer Seite rund, die andere Seite spitz.

Ich kenne nur die Rugby-ball-förmigen ! Tropfenförmigere erwarte ich auf Photographien zu sehen, wenn du solche hast.

Ok

Diese Form. Wie eine Birne

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Thearos gefunden.

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Ach ja, richtig, die in Syrien gefundenen, aus Ton geformten. Werde auch mal kucken. 

Es gibt sie auch aus Stein.  Ich sah sie auf denn Balearen
:o

Never understood the use of the almond shaped cross section.

does seem weird - maybe it was easier to make.

or maybe they worshipped advacado trees :-)

Isn't an almond section the best aerodynamically ?

Thearos wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 11:50pm:

Isn't an almond section the best aerodynamically ?

Naw, not really. Not in my experience anyway. I had a meat baller that would make almond cross sectioned ammo and it was markedly inferior to bullet or egg shaped. Didn't seem to release as smoothly and flew strangely half the time.

Interesting. We are speaking of the "(American) football" shape, yes ? By bullet shaped, what do you mean ?

Maybe the almond-cross-sectioned projectile is optimal IF you get the release just right  ? Or is ti to achieve maximum penetration on impact ?

Might have something to do with increased penetration.  Not sure about the release being different but anything is possible. Or like CA said, might be easier to mold in large quantities. It was used a lot so we can assume it was effective enough to offset it's problems but it would be a mistake assuming it was the best shape just because they used it. History is replete with poor weapon design that was used widely by various cultures.

I'm pretty sure Masi said egg shaped ammo flies the furthest and spins truest.
Right Masi?

Yes, I'd like to hear more about this. I would have thought a rugby ball shaped bullet would have been the perfect shape aerodynamically

The shape of the stone has everything to do with even contact with the pouch upon release. Pouches are typically football shaped at their base, not perfectly round, thus a football shaped stone or lead glande makes optimal contact with the pouch upon release. No room for the projectile rocking one way or the other when you are rotating the sling before release.

If you know how to throw the aerodynamics of the stone mean little in the long run, unless you are using a ridiculously flat stone which has no business being in your pouch from the get-go.

..also this is why Balearic split pouches work best for all types of stones. There are only two contact points to mess you up so if you have a decent stone it's all about proper placement.  ;)

Thearos wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 3:15pm:

Yes, I'd like to hear more about this. I would have thought a rugby ball shaped bullet would have been the perfect shape aerodynamically

My money is on you Thearos. Rugby shape or slightly enlogated rugby shape perhaps. Seems like the most aerodynamic shape.

I agree the football shape seems the most aerodynamic to me too. I think what Masi said about the egg shape is that if you shoot it with the fat end towards the front it helps make the flight more stable. It has to do with how it spins and how much wobble the shot has

You guys think the oblong football shape was used because it was more aerodynamic... Do you guys know anything about ballistics? :o

I throw stones and shoot guns daily. I know what I'm talking about, otherwise I wouldn't be opening my mouth.

At the moment no one has the kind of scientific evidence needed to prove beyond a doubt any theory of what works best. Thats a long road right there, and we have barely scratched the surface.  Ballistics for bullets don't translate perfectly to sling thrown projectiles because of the inherent differences between the two weapon systems.

..To claim a football shaped stone was thrown through the air because it was "most" aerodynamic is a ridiculous statement. Whether a stone was thrown from a sling, shot from a gun, or bounced off your mom's ass, we are talking about flight through the air. It's called physics and it does not add up.

As I said before, the curvature of the glande or stone has EVERYTHING to do with even contact with the pouch upon release. It has nothing to do with the aerodynamics of a wobbling football shaped projectile flying through the air that goes counter to everything humans have achieved through ballistic knowledge to date..  ;)

Flight through the air yes. But there is more than just it's flight through the air to take into account. Such as how well it can be released from a sling realistically. What shape shoots best from a gun does not necessarily work well form a sling.

A long, narrow pointed cylinder, I.e. a bullet is not the optimal shape for a sling proprojectile so claiming secret knowledge based on shooting bullets does not add up. Ultimately everything you say may be 100% right. You just don't have the evidence to back it up yet. No one does. Science has nothing to do with how sure you feel you are, you need repeatable,  verifiable testing taking into account all the variables. Such testing does not exist yet. Physicists and engineers have been testing bows for 100 years and we still can't agree on everything. Slings have a long way to go.

Sounds like this is a new idea to you Hunts but it is worth being open minded about it.
I think an egg shape would have great surface contact with a pouch whether it's a solid or split pouch. I suppose if you're arguing for better contact you should try a solid pouch too. An egg will fit great in either.

I also think if you know how to throw you will find a big variance in ammo. Once the projectile leaves the pou h it's down to shape and design to see how far it can carry the energy you imparted. So if an egg shape gives more stability it will fly straight further before it starts to wobble and lose its speed and trajectory.

Morphy wrote on Mar 1^st, 2016 at 5:12am:

Flight through the air yes. But there is more than just it's flight through the air to take into account. Such as how well it can be released from a sling realistically.

That's what I've been telling you guys this whole time!  :)
It's all about proper contact with the pouch before release. For goodness sakes lol


Tomas wrote on Mar 1^st, 2016 at 6:29am:

Sounds like this is a new idea to you Hunts but it is worth being open minded about it. I think an egg shape would have great surface contact with a pouch whether it's a solid or split pouch. I suppose if you're arguing for better contact you should try a solid pouch too. An egg will fit great in either.

This also goes along with what I've been saying. Solid pouches have an egg shaped base for optimal contact with football shaped stones, eggs, or glandes. So again, the shape of the projectile is for best contact with the pouch whether it be a solid pouch or split. Split pouches also have an egg shape to their bottom but it follows an invisible path, plus has only two contact points which reduces friction.

I will try to be more open minded but damn guys you are essentially agreeing with me. :) :P

I hope nobody minds if I summarize my thoughts after reading this thread and rooting around a bit. 

I note that in fact, the most aerodynamic shape is the tear-drop / rain-drop / pear-shape which Jaegoor was asking me about a few weeks ago.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-a-tear-drop-shape-more-aerodynamic-with-a-round-head-than-with-a-sharp-head-as-if-mirroring-the-back-end

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/21rz0t

Interestingly, one issue here is one of frontal drag: a point generates more drag than a smooth rounded end. Some sling bullets in fact do have very rounded, egg-like extremities (others, on the other hand, have super pointed extremities-- esp. in ancient Spain, perhaps on the instinctive idea that the bullet "pierce" the air in flight).

I assume that having the rear end of a sling bullet tapering is the same principle as a boat-tailed bullet-- in reduces drag in flight.

So perhaps the most aerodynamic sling bullet would be a tear drop (round nose, long sharp tail; the problem is that the asymmetrical shape would not facilitate clean release. So the next best shape is "football shaped", but with rounded extremities to reduce drag (rather than sharp points): it is aerodynamically efficient but also shoots cleanly. There are some asymmetrical "pear-shaped" sling bullets which in fact are aerodynamically optimal, but they may be harder to shoot, and in any case need a bit of thought to load (which, in a combat situation may be less than ideal).

Why are modern bullets, for firearms, not shaped like a tear-drop ? I assume this is because they need a flat base for the propellant to actually act on the biggest surface possible.

Thank you Thearos that's exactly what I'm getting at!

Thanks for the post Theoros.

Well those two articles are 100% true when comparing the drag coefficient moving in a forward direction.

However, I thought football shaped glandes spin upon release from a sling pouch in a helicopter fashion. It didn't occur to me that a football shaped glande was simply going forward like a bullet spinning on the smaller axis.

I'm pretty sure a football shaped glande thrown from a sling does not fly as an American football does in a conacle forward motion. However, this thought just occurred to me.

Is this what you guys have been talking about the entire time?

If so, you guys are right about the football shape being the most aerodynamic and you've just blown my mind. :P

I'll have to do some experimenting to prove your point. I just wish I had a slow motion camera!

A properly thrown glande will rifle like a bullet when leaving a sling.    The idea is finding the shape of the glande that has the best aerodynamics combined with the cleanest release.  Throw in changes in pouch shape, throwing technique, sling lengths etc, and you have a very-difficult-to-test weapon.   :)

Right, I just wish ONE of you would have put into words that the football shaped glande was flying on it's smaller axis in the air upon release.. If you had done this I would wouldn't have argued you. Instead I had to figure it out on my own and then reply.

grrrrr. come on it wasn't that hard  >:(

..but thanks for teaching me something  ;)

When i discovered "rifle spining" with a sling i thought nobody would use it, then i discovered it in older posts in this forum.The reason i needed it was that my place has more elongated stones than round , so i would rifle spin it or i would just throw buzzing stones all over the place.
Necessity is the mother of invention. ;)

I didn't, in fact, specifically mean spinning--though it's true that the football-shaped bullet does spin after stabilizing in flight, which no doubt also affects the performance. I assume a tear-drop shaped bullet also spins. In fact, don't all sling projectiles spin ?

@Thearos yes all projectiles will spin if launched with a sling.But at what direction? As a newbie back then i used narrow grip all the time and this means you have little control over the axis of the spin.So the stone may be released with : backspin/frontspin/spiral(rifle spin) or even a combination which will make the stone have unexpected trajectory.

I must add that for spiral throws and elongated stones the angle of attack plays a huge role on the trajectory .
Check this out : http://biomechanicsofajavlinthrow.blogspot.gr/2015/06/optimal-javelin-flight.html?view=sidebar

we can learn a lot from javelin throwing and pitching mechanics.

I am going to guess that most sling projectiles spin to a greater or lesser degree, due to the gland "rolling" out of the pouch when thrown.

Also, projectiles with uneven or jagged corners "buzz" or whine when thrown, leading me to guess that they are spinning at a very high rate.

I have made some biconals about the size of a golf ball, most throws from a split pouch cause them to "rifle" or spin on their long axis.  You can see them wobbling as they first leave the pouch but as they spin, the wobble decreases and the gland stabilizes and goes a longer distance than a round gland of roughly the same weight.

And, FWIW, if it comes out of the pouch stable, that sucker is going to go a lot further than a wobbly one or a round one. 

I haven't experimented with egg shaped glands.  I have plenty of clay, so I will give it a try later on this year and report back.

This is Morningstar's vid  on this phenomenon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvidIcGUXkQ

Bill's comment that the biconal flies further than the sphere seems to show that the shape *is* aerodynamic

Of course it's aerodynamic... lol.  We are over thinking this. Football, egg shape etc are all aerodynamic.

As far as spin goes how you sling and even the orientation of your palm at release can really affect spin. I use to use a palm forward toward the target release with my Balearic throw. I was always puzzled when the glande would dive bomb into the ground after about 40 meters. I finally figured out if I keep my palm pointed more upwards upon release it would fly straight and level, and consequently maintain velocity much better because hard, non rifiling spin saps velocity.  This mainly happened with shorter sling lengths and my particular throw. No one else seems to have this problem.  So ya, tons of variables involved.

I'm just going to tip-toe away from this thread....


:o

wimp :whistle:

OK....

From my experience...

Getting a biconical to release cleanly and rifle-spin correctly from any sort of helicopter/sidearm throw is difficult due to pouch orientation and the tendency for the cords to twist when you "break" your wrist. Watch some slo-mo vides to see what I'm talking about. The shape of an oblong projectile also offers some aerodynamic challenges as you wind it up. It will want to go "flat side" into the wind, like a piece of plywood flying off a car roof (if that makes sense). It doesn't take much to get it go sideways.
Essentially what you are trying to do is fly one of those tethered airplanes.

I'm not saying a Balearic slinger cant rifle spin...you can rifle spin from any release, even underhand.

But there is one technique that is superior, again, in my experience. When you drop the pouch in a fig-8 with your palm up, you are "flying" the pouch in a nice, slow transition to release without twisting the cords, and the projectile will want to go up as it comes out of the pouch...in line with the lift that is created by the spin. Thats why quarterbacks throw overhand.

A biconical will stabilise better than a teardrop because the mass is in the center. Most of the pointy teardrop shapes I've fooled around with get "tail wobble" and increased drag. Biconical seem to naturally stabilise.
An American football is also helped by the laces. They keep airflow attached around the rear of the ball in flight, reducing drag. There are some videos that demonstrate the boundary layer, laminar flow, etc

It could be that the inscriptions on lead glandes were not only there for their psychological effect...they might have figured out that they flew further and were more stable with them than without them.

The tear drop may be the most aerodynamic is some situations, but we are talking ballistics here. There are other forces at work.

Mark-Harrop wrote on Mar 17^th, 2016 at 6:56am:

Getting a biconical to release cleanly and rifle-spin correctly from any sort of helicopter/sidearm throw is difficult due to pouch orientation and the tendency for the cords to twist when you "break" your wrist.

wide grip and practice can fix this. if my sling cords twist i stop the rotations, cause i know it will be a wild shot, this happens rarely.
also be smooth.

if the projectile rotates around its axis then probably the teardrop is better than biconical, for subsonic speeds. but the differences are small.
sources:http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0151.shtml
http://space.stackexchange.com/questions/6454/what-is-the-ideal-shape-for-a-rocket
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ArW-sA8NsQ

teardrop probably gains less lift for the same angle of attack
which is good and bad

teardrop would be a good way to disable enemy splitpouchers in battle from re-throwing your ammo back at you accurately  :P

for terminal ballistics i think the biconical is the best

I would gladly take the 150g glandes in my sling pouch.
I made a lot of ammo from clay awhile ago. From sphere to oval to biconical. I weighted them all at 130 grams, and afterwards I regretted not making them heavier. Most stones I pick these days are in the 150 - 180 g range. Yesterday I threw a 280 gram smooth rock that just fit in my pouch, and it worked, although it's very tiring. I love the sheer destructive power when they are smacked against a rock wall. It is very satisfying. I also love to throw big rocks as far as possible.

Yes, my arm gets quite sore and tired after doing 50 balearic slinging throws with big stones like this, but that's because my muscles still have to adapt. I find that doing a Greek sidearm style helps reduce the strain a bit. It also happens to be my most accurate style. But I think Balearic is just much more fun.

I can really see the usage of heavy ammo in battle. When the enemy advances close enough (as in 100-150 meters) I see no reason not to pelt them with heavy rocks or glandes. It would really suppress them. Doesn't matter if it's high or straight trajectory. Any hit on the head, even with steel helmet, is gonna give you a bad day. Any body part for that matter. Only the Roman Testudo formation would be effective against it. Than you must aim for the legs, which will be hard. I am glad those days are over...

I reread this thread since it got upped. Did Huntsman initially believe that football shaped bullets rotated in flight like a helicopter rotor ?

If you throw them wrong, they sure will.  Ask me how I know that one.

Mark-Harrop wrote on Mar 17^th, 2016 at 6:56am:

slow transition to release without twisting the cords

The quote is in regards to the figure 8.

The pouch motion from a figure-8 release has nearly the same mechanics as side arm, or any other release. In the figure 8, the pouch still has to rotate 180 degrees (axis along the cords) within 180 degrees of the throw rotation (axis through the hand, parallel to the ground and perpendicular to the direction of throw).  Watch David Morningstar's slow-mo videos. The pouch mechanics are nearly identical for all the throws. This particular argument for figure 8 doesn't hold water.

The only method that I can think of that doesn't require the 180degree spin of the pouch is the apache style.

I agree that the figure 8 is closer to a throw in some senses and in that manner seems to fit human biomechanics better, but I can chuck a stone 220m (maximum) with sidearm, and I have never done the same with figure 8. It is just how one practices, and I mostly practice sidearm. (personally, I think figure 8 is wasted motion.

I've seen a 400 gram biconical blunt-tipped lead projectile also from Cyprus (shorter length versus thickness at middle relative to the more slender example shown here), which may well have been made for use with staff slings.

Plumbata wrote on Feb 16^th, 2018 at 1:10pm:

I've seen a 400 gram biconical blunt-tipped lead projectile also from Cyprus (shorter length versus thickness at middle relative to the more slender example shown here), which may well have been made for use with staff slings.

Well, A 400g projectile can still be slung with a sling quite effectively, although you could probably throw it further with a staff sling, but not more accurate. I've thrown a 420g rock against a stone wall and it still has enough power to shatter in many pieces.

Here member Timpa throwing a 5kg brick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HzzudOV7D0

I've regularly used a 500g or so rock with a hand sling but you can't really do that all day long with no consequences. Sling length has an effect where I find shorter slings put less strain on your arm.