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General >> Slinging as a Sport, Competition Rules, Slinging Awards And Events >> Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
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Message started by CodeMaker on May 29th, 2013 at 4:11pm

Title: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by CodeMaker on May 29th, 2013 at 4:11pm
This is the last thing we need to decide in order to hold competitions. an explanation of the choices follows:

Set Distances-
    We would choose a few standard slinging distances and a competing slinger would sling at the distance best fitting his skill level. this it the choice that will make the most sense to non-slingers, but keep in mind that it does not allow a slinger to choose his distance. also, if 2 slingers are used to slinging at different distances, than there is no way for them to fairly compete using this method.

Points Adjusted for Distance-
    We would make a graph (or an equation) showing how much a hit is worth at a given distance. So a hit from farther away would be worth more points. A slinger can sling at any distance, and adjust the points accordingly. the graph would be made by finding how many hits are made with 20 stones against a Balearic target from various distances, and than determining how much more difficult it gets to score points as the distance gets farther. the graph would be then published. this method would be more versatile and is better suited to small groups of slingers than set distances. Keep in mind that we could still have "usual distances" to guide new slingers, similar to how our current accuracy merit award works.


Now lets get this figured out so we can start some real competitions!


Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by Morphy on Jun 6th, 2013 at 3:01pm
Whatever the community decides is fine.  Probably won't affect me all that much.  

Some thoughts on standards though...  I've read that some feel that slinging at shorter distances and simply using a smaller target is the same as slinging at a larger target at longer distances.  In my experience this is not the case.  Both elevation and windage come into affect at longer distances.  Elevation is particularly difficult in field slinging since the ranges are unknown.  But even in target slinging,  since you have neither a front nor a rear site, judging elevation, and essentially slinging at a nonexistent spot somewhere above the target takes more skill than slinging at a small target at shorter distances.

Also overall distances in my set up are from 15-40 meters.  I would urge other slingers to consider longer distances when/if deciding on what the community should use.  It's only a matter of time that longer distances happen either way.  People will continue to raise the bar and push boundaries.  40 meters is a very reasonable outer limit for the sling.

Just my 2 cents.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by CodeMaker on Jun 6th, 2013 at 6:57pm
All good things to keep in mind, thank you Morphy :)


I'll probably keep this poll open until around Sunday. After that we need to move onto developing and refining the method that is chosen. It would be nice to have competition standards all set before the end of the month, so that we can put it into use over the summer.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by squirrelslinger on Jun 6th, 2013 at 7:38pm
my target after approx 150 shots at 15 yards-

This is 5/8 plywood... I think.  I got it for free and didn't measure it.
I spray-painted the lines and circle on to see what it does to my accuracy and to help you guys. The sheet is 120 cm tall and I measured 120 cm to make the lines. The circle is I think 50 cm but I dunno. It might be closer to 60 or 70. Just go by the square. the approx middle of the black lines are the edges, and the inside of the circle is measured. I meant to paint outside the circle but thought it would take too long.
I did this in 10 mins. I might do this with another target, 1" plywood. Then the whole dang thing would be square, but there is no way I can penetrate 1" of marine plywood.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by CodeMaker on Jun 6th, 2013 at 7:53pm
beautiful! could you try throwing from 1 or 2 more distances and give me your scores for each distance? (maybe 10 meters and 20 meters) take the same number of shots you took for this at each distance and give me the scores for all 3 distances. if you get around to it, i'll enter all the data into my graph along with some scores from other people to get a head start on a distance VS. accuracy graph. Your target is close enough to official dimensions for me :)

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by squirrelslinger on Jun 6th, 2013 at 8:29pm

CodeMaker wrote on Jun 6th, 2013 at 7:53pm:
beautiful! could you try throwing from 1 or 2 more distances and give me your scores for each distance? (maybe 10 meters and 20 meters) take the same number of shots you took for this at each distance and give me the scores for all 3 distances. if you get around to it, i'll enter all the data into my graph along with some scores from other people to get a head start on a distance VS. accuracy graph. Your target is close enough to official dimensions for me :)

I can only do one more distance(I have only one more wood target :P)... and the marks will be mars of the wood(dents) cause I cannot puncture 1" marine plywood.

I can do 30 yards, but I doubt I will hit it more than 5 times per 100 shots.
How bout 25 yards?
I can probably hit it a few times.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by CodeMaker on Jun 6th, 2013 at 8:43pm
sure, so long as you take the same number of shots at a similar target. any distance works so long as it's AT LEAST 5 meters (about 4.5 yards) difference from your first distance. that way i'll have some contrast for the graph.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by LightSlinger on Jun 7th, 2013 at 12:23am
Just wanted to pipe in here and say that you gents are bringing it along nicely.  Bravo Zulu!

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by CodeMaker on Jun 8th, 2013 at 8:23pm
I agree, this seems to be going quite well  :)

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by curious_aardvark on Jun 9th, 2013 at 9:38am
well if you have points adjusted for distance - then you can sling at set distances as well using the same system.
So you get a 2 for one effectively.

Depending on ammunition - and that's extremely important - scores should drop off considerably after 30 yards/metres - which are we using by the way ?
Primarily because most people have problems keeping a flat trajectory much after that kind of distance.

Target shooting is much harder if you have to angle your throw with a distinct arc.
 
I can throw pretty flat to at least 70 yards - but I suspect that's fairly unusual :-)
I actually found what effected my accuracy at distance most was an inability to see what i was aiming at.

Seriously need new glasses prescription.

Actually had me wondering how it would have effected ancestral slingers who had no corrective eye wear.  

Anyway - that's all moot.

My main point was if we have a formula for working out points at any distance, but put the preference on using fixed distances  - then we've covered all the bases.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by CodeMaker on Jun 9th, 2013 at 6:05pm
I agree C_A. The poll in currently at a tie, but points adjusted for distance had a clear lead up until now, so we're gonna go with that unless there is some major riot saying otherwise. so we now need to start gathering Data. i'll try to post a request for peoples scores in the "general" section before the end of the day.

As for ammunition, it seems like most people don't like the idea of standardizing it, so i'm just going to leave that up to the host of the competition if he/she wants to dictate the type of ammunition used.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by squirrelslinger on Jun 9th, 2013 at 6:36pm
Consistant ammo(golf balls, clay, lead) makes a person more accurate.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by Caldou on Jun 9th, 2013 at 7:01pm
Yes, but not everybody can train with lead every day.

The "the idea of standardizing" that people don't agree is an international standard, not a problem of training with consistant ammunition.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by squirrelslinger on Jun 9th, 2013 at 7:04pm

Caldou wrote on Jun 9th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Yes, but not everybody can train with lead every day.

The "the idea of standardizing" that people don't agree is an international standard, not a problem of training with consistant ammunition.

I have only slung 3 lead glandes in  my entire life.

I often use stone, but golf balls are much more accurate.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by woodssj on Jun 9th, 2013 at 7:45pm
Just to throw a metaphoical wrench in the metaphorical gears of the metaphorically dueling methods...

There's no reason not to do both.

I say this for two reasons: First, set ranges, as with accuracy achievement standards, are easy to set up, give a universal standard to judge from, and make sense to those outside. Let's just say, for the sake of arguement, that the scores are as follows(format m/pts) for a diana:

15/1, 25/2, 35/4.

Every 10m over 15, the score is doubled. That gives the following, if my math is correct (I doubt it): pts=(R-15m)/5 Where R=range.  
To get 25m points, it would be: pts.= (25-15=10)/5=2
To get 35m Points, pts= (35-15=20)/5=4
To get 45m Points, pts= (45-15=30)/5=8.....See, I did it wrong. One of the mathmeticians who didn't strugle with basic Algebra and quadratic functions may be able to help more later.

This then gives a perfectly fine system to use for longer or shorter or oddly placed ranges of whatever type you could want.


There's also a totally different way to look at it: Dianas and boards at x range out of 10 stones:
A score would be as follows: 2/5@30...1/2@50...Etc. Or, since it can only go to 100, refered to as a "Twenty five at Thirty" or "Twelve at Fifty" if you like. A 100 would be a perfect score.  This system would accomidate any range, and then set ranges can be used for competitions, excepting in a less formal, odd-range or long-range shoot.
As every slinger will know who difficult it is shooting at any range they've tried, or can guess at the difficulty, it seems solid enough.
Thoughts?

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by CodeMaker on Jun 9th, 2013 at 7:56pm
if i understand your math correctly, it seems like it is more of a guess as to how distance affects accuracy. not a concrete formula that makes all distances fair. so it's probably better to get scores at different distances from people and then make a graph with it that we can publish.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by squirrelslinger on Jun 9th, 2013 at 9:53pm

CodeMaker wrote on Jun 9th, 2013 at 7:56pm:
if i understand your math correctly, it seems like it is more of a guess as to how distance affects accuracy. not a concrete formula that makes all distances fair. so it's probably better to get scores at different distances from people and then make a graph with it that we can publish.

Percent hits on the y axis, distance on x. Line graph.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by woodssj on Jun 9th, 2013 at 10:47pm
Are you sure that would be a linear function? Eventually, the target will visually diminish more per meter as you go to a further and further range. Also, the effects cited of elevation, windage, and precieved target surface are going to come into it at a higher rate the longer the range.
Either way it will work, I was mostly thinking of the ease of operation, and fact that the balearic system uses something similar.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by CodeMaker on Jun 9th, 2013 at 11:25pm
no, it wont be linear. i'll probably end up linearizing it though in order to make myself a nice simple equation. i do agree that it would be easier to set up a simple method like yours, but i'm afraid it might handicap a few distances and give an advantage to a few others. i'd rather put a little more effort in and make an accurate point adjusting method. are you sure the Balearic system works like that? i thought they just had set distances.  

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by woodssj on Jun 10th, 2013 at 12:38am
The balearic system uses different distances, but the scores go up at the farther distances. Therefore, they have a similar system, if not designed for scalability.

I agree a linear function would be easier to work with. Perhaps a larger table of distances and scores would be necessary, with the formula attached for those who want to be overly precise.

The advantages to a "3/5 @ 50" system are that it relies on the diana hits first to win, then board hits for tie-breaking and more specific ranking.  However, like the Balearic system, you'd have to have a score at every distance to truely show your skill over the range continuum. But a straight point system has no respect for range: one hit on diana at 100 meters could loose to five board hits at 20, with the bull still intact.

I think that's a factor worth thinking about, since we are aiming to reward propper marksmanship, not almost-marksmanship.

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by squirrelslinger on Jun 14th, 2013 at 10:32pm
Agreed on the daina. Shotgun slings allowed? ;)

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by woodssj on Jun 15th, 2013 at 9:49pm
No shotgunning. That defeats the purpose, unless you're shooting skeet.

Otherwise, how do these point systems deal with this issue of diana vs board?

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by jlasud on Jun 16th, 2013 at 3:25am
Me thinks,there is a "spread angle",which would be very simple to calculate.(don't like math much).
A 20m radius circle's perimeter is 125m.
At 20m an average slinger has let's say 2.08m spread (sidearm,overhand diff planes).
That would be 125m/60 =2.08m ; 360/60= 6 degrees.

A 40m radius circle has a perimeter of 251m,divided by 60=4.18m
So there would be pretty close to 2 times the spread from 20 to 40m. So a score multiplier of 2 should be fair.

At 10m (10m radius circle) the perimeter is 62.8m. Divided by 60 to get the same 6 degree spread=1.04m

At 30m the perimeter of the 30m radius circle is 188.49m
Divided by 60=3.14

So at 3 times the distance,the spread is 3.01 times more. Of course these spread widths are not quite straight lines because they are segments of the perimeter of a big circle,but at 6 degrees it's pretty close.

Phew,wouldn't have thought that it's this simple,whatcha think?

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by TNshooter on Jun 16th, 2013 at 2:30pm
Who's diana???

Title: Re: Basic Competition Scoring and Distance
Post by TNshooter on Jun 16th, 2013 at 3:00pm
SS, nice shooting on that plywood. You're putting some power in there.

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