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General >> Other Primitive Weapons >> WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
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Message started by RJB on Mar 28th, 2013 at 10:12pm

Title: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by RJB on Mar 28th, 2013 at 10:12pm
I made my first 4 today.  I was barefooted with shorts and enjoying a warm spring day.  The first two were from a black locust with a slight bend.  I cut it in half lengthwise with a table saw and wittled it down like an airplane wing.

The second two were made from a rough cut hickory stave that turned out to be bit wormy as it was seasoning.  I threw it out in the yard for the kids to play with over the winter, but alway felt sorry for it (I get a bit sentimental for wood I plan to make into a bow :)  )  These were straight limbs I shaped out as a airplane wing.  All 4 were about 28 inches long.

After an hour or so of wittling, I threw them.  WOW!!!  Why did it take me until I was 41 years old to make these and throw these!?!?  To any reading this who has not tried a rabbit stick, try it!!!  I've made bows, atlatls, slings etc.  but for some reason the stick just seemed too simple.  (I feel like a snob now.)  I can't describe the power that these sticks hit with!!!  And accuracy comes a lot quicker than with slinging.  

I will try to post some picks, but photobucket changed their format and I am temporarily flumoxed, but again, if you have never made or thrown a rabbit stick, you're missing out big time.  Don't waste a good portion of your life like I did  :)

 

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ghost0311-8541 on Mar 28th, 2013 at 11:14pm
I know what you mean i could never get mine to fly right i was makeing them backwards

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Mar 29th, 2013 at 8:22am
Topic added to the PW's index.
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 29th, 2013 at 12:52pm
Cool.  I made one out of red oak.... it was absolutely awesome!
I might try one from something like BL, it is denser...
Thanks for the idea. Anyone here ever done anything with Hawthorne wood? There is a bunch my dad pruned off that I want to do something with.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by RJB on Mar 29th, 2013 at 8:08pm

squirrelslinger wrote on Mar 29th, 2013 at 12:52pm:
Thanks for the idea. Anyone here ever done anything with Hawthorne wood? There is a bunch my dad pruned off that I want to do something with.

I haven't made a hawthorn one, I'm a newb, but I'm going by my axiom on bowyering.   There isn't really a good or bad bow wood, the harder/denser wood makes thinner/flatter bows (or throwing sticks.)  The lighter/softer wood make thicker/wider bows (throwing sticks.)Hawthorne is pretty dense wood, so it would probably work out well as a thin rabbit stick.

To all the experienced rabbit stickers--  If my axiom is flawed, feel free to correct me.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by jlasud on Mar 30th, 2013 at 5:25am
I would like to make one..recently i thought about it.
If i already made "bows" slings,crossbow,javelins,morningstar,etc i gotta try the rabbit stick also.

I had the same feeling when i discovered slinging:all the years until now without slinging..

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Mar 30th, 2013 at 2:00pm
Treat hawthorn as a fruit wood, it's in the apple family.

The deeper the bend in the rabbit stick, the longer range you will have.  Close to 90 degrees will sail around 50 meters+.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 30th, 2013 at 10:15pm
Impressive distance. I am working one of BL.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by perpetualstudent on Mar 31st, 2013 at 4:47pm
How do they compare to apache throwing star? Or is one considered a subset of the other?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by RJB on Mar 31st, 2013 at 8:43pm

perpetualstudent wrote on Mar 31st, 2013 at 4:47pm:
How do they compare to apache throwing star? Or is one considered a subset of the other?

They are more like boomerangs that don't come back.  I gotta figure out how to post my pics  :P

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by jlasud on Apr 1st, 2013 at 1:54am
Recently i found a half jaw bone of a cow. (one intact side without much teeth).
It's surprisingly heavy(dense) and hard of course,slightly curved,not very long (max. 1 feet)
I grinded a bit on the mouth end,so it would slip out my hand without bruising it during throwing.
It made a decent throwing "stick" considering it's weight,shape,and that i just found it,and that it took 3 min of pecking and grinding to make the grip comfortable.
It's profile it elongated oval,so it's quite good.

The only con is that it's short.
If i'll find a horse jaw bone,i'll definitely try to throw that.

Just thought i'd share this idea,so if you see some long jaw bones,remember that it could make a rabbit stick.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by MickR on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 9:49pm
What is a 'Rabbit stick'? A previous post read ..."like a boomerang that doesn't come back.", but that is essentially the bulk of all boomerangs used for hunting. The returning boomerangs were for bird hunting mostly, and the usual, heavier, non returning were for bringing down larger game.
Spears with the Woomera reached out to touch game much, much further away and I can attest to the range and effectivness of those!


Mick

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Thunder Chief on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 10:59pm

jlasud wrote on Apr 1st, 2013 at 1:54am:
If i'll find a horse jaw bone,i'll definitely try to throw that.

Just thought i'd share this idea,so if you see some long jaw bones,remember that it could make a rabbit stick.


Or you could, you know, kill some Philistines...

Do you think a longer jawbone/stick would get more range, or are you just angling to get it to hit harder?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Masiakasaurus on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 11:22pm

Mick wrote on Apr 3rd, 2013 at 9:49pm:
What is a 'Rabbit stick'? A previous post read ..."like a boomerang that doesn't come back"

From an anthropology standpoint, a boomerang is shaped into a symmetric airfoil. A rabbit stick is shaped into anything in between and including a flattened oval and a perfect circle but almost never into an airfoil. Rabbit sticks aren't always curved into an L or S shape, but boomerangs are. When a rabbit stick is curved, it is a gradual sweep down the length of the stick rather than a sharp bend in one location as is typical in boomerangs.

But mostly, a boomerang is from Australia and a rabbit stick is from everywhere else.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by MickR on Apr 4th, 2013 at 2:27am
I just did an image search after your description, because what you described sounded exactly like a hunting boomerang to me. After viewing images, I found that they look like a cross between light weight hunting boomerangs used by the Aboriginals in my area, and the wooden War swords used by the Tjapukai tribe in the north of my state. Both are bigger and heavier than rabbit sticks, and I suppose that if rabbits are the name of the game, then that stands to reason, as both hunting boomerangs and the Tjapukai sword were designed for large game and war. We didn't have rabbits here 200 years ago.  :)


Mick

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Masiakasaurus on Apr 4th, 2013 at 10:15am
Rabbit sticks have been used for a lot of game including large birds and the size tends to vary with the type of game found in the area of manufacture. Modern rabbit sticks are smaller and show less variation than historic examples, kinda like the relationship between the size and shape of returning plastic novelty boomerangs compared to the wooden bird hunting versions. But a boomerang will always be an thin airfoil and a rabbit stick will be an oval so you can easily tell the difference when looking side-on at the wing if you have two authentic examples.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 4th, 2013 at 10:16pm
Some of the rabbit sticks used in western North America are airfoils, they were designed to sail horizontally.  There are pictures from the 1920's(?) 30's (?) of a Mexican demonstrating how to throw and hunt with them.  (he carried three)  While demonstrating for a group of anthropoligists, he jumped a whitetail deer, he killed it with a thrown rabbit stick.  I don't know if he killed it with one throw or if he disabled it and finished it off with a second or with a hand held one.  Judging by the pictures the rabbit sticks are about the length of his arm, with close to a 90 degree bend.  Andthere are stories from some of the California tribes that rabbit sticks were used in fighting.

The ones used in eastern NA are either just a stick, a stick that was whittled down to look like BamBams' club or a stick that was whittled down with a knob on each end, very similar to a majorettes' baton.  They tended to be short, about the length from the elbow to the finger tips or slightly shorter.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by jlasud on Apr 5th, 2013 at 2:56pm
Thunder,i'm pretty sure,that a longer could fly further,being an arm extension also. The jaw bone i got is very heavy,probably heavier than any wood.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 5th, 2013 at 10:07pm
The oldest boomerang is around 14,000 years old, is made of mammoth ivory and was excavated in Poland.  A Polish boomerang club made a copy in wood and in some type of polymer that was the same weight and density as the ivory one, they reported that the polymer one out performed the wooden one by a large margin, it went further, flew flatter and, because it was heavier, hit much harder than the wooden replica.  It was  non-returning.

Because it was curved, it was called a boomerang, if it had been found in the Americas, it would have been called a rabbit stick.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by jlasud on Apr 6th, 2013 at 12:02am
Ivory boomerang,not bad :)
density,length,shape

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 7th, 2013 at 4:35pm
It was a link off Paleoplanet, Other Weapons thread about 4-6 years ago.  

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Thunder Chief on Apr 7th, 2013 at 7:43pm

Bill Skinner wrote on Apr 5th, 2013 at 10:07pm:
The oldest boomerang is around 14,000 years old, is made of mammoth ivory and was excavated in Poland.  A Polish boomerang club made a copy in wood and in some type of polymer that was the same weight and density as the ivory one, they reported that the polymer one out performed the wooden one by a large margin, it went further, flew flatter and, because it was heavier, hit much harder than the wooden replica.  It was  non-returning.

Because it was curved, it was called a boomerang, if it had been found in the Americas, it would have been called a rabbit stick.


How durable is ivory?  I had in my mind that it was somewhat brittle, but I could be way off.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Apr 7th, 2013 at 8:54pm
So would Osage or Locust make a good rabbit-stick?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 8th, 2013 at 7:03am
yep.


Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Masiakasaurus on Apr 8th, 2013 at 8:27am

Thunder Chief wrote on Apr 7th, 2013 at 7:43pm:
How durable is ivory?  I had in my mind that it was somewhat brittle, but I could be way off.

Fossilized Ivory is brittle because it is stone but ivory, antler, and bone still have some give to them because of their spongey cell structure.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Thunder Chief on Apr 8th, 2013 at 1:44pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Apr 8th, 2013 at 8:27am:

Thunder Chief wrote on Apr 7th, 2013 at 7:43pm:
How durable is ivory?  I had in my mind that it was somewhat brittle, but I could be way off.

Fossilized Ivory is brittle because it is stone but ivory, antler, and bone still have some give to them because of their spongey cell structure.


So ivory is on par with bone and antler for durability? If so, I can see why it'd make such an effective rabbit stick

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Masiakasaurus on Apr 8th, 2013 at 2:49pm
Yep, the dentine in teeth and ivory is directly equivalent to bone in terms of durability.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Steven_M._Peffley on Apr 8th, 2013 at 2:57pm
Hi Everyone,

                     I made a reproduction of the Oblazowa ( mammoth ivory ) boomerang from stacked plywood. As I was cutting out the different layers, I cut openings that would form a hollow chamber through the center of the completed boomerang. I assembled two sides, or a top and bottom if you prefer, each of which had a hollow that was roughly one half of the the chamber.
  Mixing lead bird shot with sawdust and wood glue to form a thick paste I filled both hollows and then clamped the two sides and let dry/cure before final shaping. I could have melted and poured the lead directly into the hollows, but lead even though the melting temp is pretty low, is still hot enough to at least scorch wood if not actively ignite it. ( saw this once pouring sling bullets in a wooden mold.
        I tried to copy the airfoil exactly, including an odd little "shelf" that is on the underside in the center of the leading edge ( concave side ). After this, I dyed the wood with a brilliant red leather dye and soaked the entire thing in linseed oil for about a month. The boomerang was dried for about another month. Burnished the boomerang with a section of Ash dowel to crush the surface fibers together ( sort of like case hardening for wood ) and then finished it with beeswax mixed with linseed oil.
     The boomerang, which is a non-returner, came in about a half pound lighter than the original, even though I measured a full pound of shot. The result is a rabbit stick which flyes flat as stretched string for 300+ feet, and still hits hard at that distance. Understandably, the ends see the most wear and/or damage; the handle end particularly snaps off about 1" to 2" in the first throws, but none after. It has happened with the three examples that I have made so far. So fresh ivory is probably at least as strong as moose antler, which is the toughest material of it's kind that I have used so far. Still, the plywood version with a heart of lead, is about ten years old and has seen no further damage.
       I have a small personal supply of mammoth ivory, and every piece ( within various piece lots ) exhibits differing degrees of fossilization. I have never worked with a piece that was more like stone rather than an organic material. Mammoth ivory when cut smells pretty much like antler, bone or horn. Color isn't a good guide either, since unless you have a piece that has part of the outer skin, or was in very heavy mineral saturation, the stuff is white or off white in color. I do have a piece that I made into a leather slicker ( leather working tool ) that has lines running through it that are a very dark blue, nearly black. My guess is that more recent mammoth ivory - about 12000 years old, is less fossilized than stuff from older deposits.
        How boomerangs or rabbit sticks were *ever* considered "toys" is a mystery to me; they are some of the scariest hunting tools/weapons I have played with. I think I posted my first experience with boomerangs on this forum some years back - that example convinced me not to test fly a boomerang without at least a football field of free space on all sides.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by walter on Apr 8th, 2013 at 5:25pm
Steven, do you have a pic of your plywood bunny stick?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Steven_M._Peffley on Apr 8th, 2013 at 7:32pm
Hi Walter,

                I have never tried to attach a pic on this forum. If it is as simple as taking a picture with the tablet, saving it, and then attaching it to a post here - then yes, I can do this nearlly immediately.
    If on the other hand I have to go through flicker, or some other photo archiving site, then not so much.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by David Morningstar on Apr 9th, 2013 at 2:15am
Just below the reply box is the 'Attach: Choose file' box. If you can resize the pic to 800x600 then great, if not attach it anyway and one of us can sort it out.

Do you have a link to the dimensions of the original?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 9th, 2013 at 12:05pm
I'm with David, the article got me interested but there wasn't much detail.  I would love to see pictures or at least a link to a site that has a lot more detail than the article that I read.  Your post is the first time I have seen the name of the artifact and it at least gives me a starting point.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by David Morningstar on Apr 9th, 2013 at 2:25pm

Half way down the page... http://paleo.revues.org/620


img-10-small480.png (289 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by David Morningstar on Apr 9th, 2013 at 2:31pm

And....
oblazowaboomerang_zps12d0a7b8.jpg (81 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by walter on Apr 9th, 2013 at 5:21pm
That is amazing! Believe i've seen something similar mounted on the hood of a 68 white caddy with Texas plates :-?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Dan on Apr 10th, 2013 at 8:25am
That is by far the most beast throwing stick I've ever seen!  8-)

Thanks for posting David!

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 10th, 2013 at 9:17am
Thank you for showing the pictures.  My reading abilities in French are very minimal, am I correct in that it is or was thought to be ceremonial?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Caldou on Apr 10th, 2013 at 9:56am
Yes, because of the context.

It was at the back of the cavity, in a river stones circle, with a lot of human phalanx. So they guessed it could be an initiation site.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Apr 10th, 2013 at 10:32am
I like the "lithics"
:)
Eeh... or more accuratly the pics. They look like my stone stuff

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 11th, 2013 at 7:23pm
Those are blades off a central core that were minimally reworked and used as tools such as blades, points, gravers and scrapers.  The smaller ones down at the bottom of the page are called microliths and were used as drills, preforaters and awls.

Thank you, Caldou.  I can read and sort of puzzle out what is written in French because a lot of English words are either actually French or came from mispronounced French words.  ;D

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Thunder Chief on Apr 11th, 2013 at 8:09pm

Caldou wrote on Apr 10th, 2013 at 9:56am:
Yes, because of the context.

It was at the back of the cavity, in a river stones circle, with a lot of human phalanx. So they guessed it could be an initiation site.


Human what?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Caldou on Apr 12th, 2013 at 1:26am
human finger bones, my dictionnary says that phalanx is also used in this case, like the greek military formation

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Thunder Chief on Apr 12th, 2013 at 1:46am

Caldou wrote on Apr 12th, 2013 at 1:26am:
human finger bones, my dictionnary says that phalanx is also used in this case, like the greek military formation


Cool! Phalanx appears to be the plural of phalanges.  I guess you learn something new everyday.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Masiakasaurus on Apr 12th, 2013 at 7:57am
Other way around. A phalanx bone is one of the phalanges.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Thunder Chief on Apr 13th, 2013 at 11:56pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Apr 12th, 2013 at 7:57am:
Other way around. A phalanx bone is one of the phalanges.


Yeah, that  :-/

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Steven_M._Peffley on Apr 22nd, 2013 at 12:26pm
Hi All,

        I finally got around to taking some pics. A group shot of all my non-returning boomerangs, with the exception of the long, curved one at the top; which is a returning boom.
   The red one is the one mentioned before, weighted with a pound of lead bird shot and based on the Paleolithic one found at Oblazowa, Poland.
    Apologies in advance to the Administers if they have to resize this and the others I post.
    More pics to come.
Nonreturningbooms.jpg (1010 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Apr 22nd, 2013 at 12:40pm
Those are gorgeous!  
The weather has finally been nice enough to do a little tree service in our yard. I made this yesterday from a weeping willow branch I recently cut.  It's my first rabbit stick.  I never measured anything, but the funny thing is that it's proportions exactly measure with my own arm from shoulder to fingers and the joint lines up with my elbow.
IMG_20130422_111116_001.jpg (286 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Steven_M._Peffley on Apr 22nd, 2013 at 12:41pm
   As promised, more pics.
   Pic 1 - A closer shot of the Oblazowa and one based on a stone artifact from Portugal. The stone artifact is a flat, thin slab of Schist, probably not more than about 9" ( 23 cm ) long, and engraved with the geometric design shown. I saw it and thought that it would make a neat war club/boomerang.
   Pic 2 - A group shot of reproductions of some of the boomerangs found in Europe. These date from the Paleolithic to at least the Celtic Iron Age.
  The one shaped sort of like a lazy "M" is based on one from Neolithic Britain, found near Stonehenge I think and made from Oak. The small one is actually a returning boomerang and is a replica of one found in Germany, dateing to about 300 BCE.
   Pic 3 - Returning booms, just for fun.
Returningbooms.jpg (920 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Steven_M._Peffley on Apr 22nd, 2013 at 12:44pm
Okay, it appears that the post only took the last one I attached, Pic 3.
So...here is pic 2.
Historiceuropeanbooms.jpg (928 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Steven_M._Peffley on Apr 22nd, 2013 at 12:50pm
And, finally, Pic 1.

  And that is an excellent rabbit stick, Arcane. I have yet to actually make a boom from a branch; all the ones pictured are plywood. I do have some branches of storm killed Oak seasoning on my front porch, but am hesitating trying to use them until I can figure out how best to split them lengthwise into blanks.
Historicbooms.jpg (951 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Apr 24th, 2013 at 2:28pm
Man, making these things is addictive!  I just finished this one today from the same willow tree.  

the arms are 30cm and 58cm and it's a little over 560g.  It's still quite green and I imagine it will lighten up considerably as it dries out.  Willow is an incredibly wet wood, water would squeeze out to the surface as i was carving it.
rabbit_stick2.JPG (312 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by walter on Apr 24th, 2013 at 5:16pm
AT, you must have thrown on by now, so how do they fly?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Apr 24th, 2013 at 5:44pm
Straight as can be. And they hit pretty hard too. My practice rabbit is a big plastic salad bowl. I try to throw it so it rolls in a curved path along the ground and then hit it with the stick.  When it hits, the bowl takes a good beating. It's definitely trickier to master than a 20 gauge.

I cracked my first stick at the elbow when I hit a tree. I think I can fix it with a dowl and some glue though.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by David Morningstar on Apr 25th, 2013 at 11:01am

It appears there is a kylie (non-returning) event in the World Boomerang Championships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qceycBquF4

And some decent target-eye footage of some throwing in France:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS8jBnX4-3I

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 25th, 2013 at 11:43am
SMP, thank you very much for your pictures. I have got to make some of those.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Steven_M._Peffley on Apr 25th, 2013 at 7:37pm
Thanks Bill. Now that I know that I can attach pics, I will be posting more soon.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Apr 25th, 2013 at 8:17pm
I made a third stick today from the same willow stock. This one is far lighter and more delicate ( the broad arm is 5cm at it's widest and a wispy 169g.  I wanted to see how far I could carve the stick down before it turned into a toy.  To my surprise, this stick generates a surplus amount of lift.  It was a joy to carve with my new favorite whittling knife, a stainless boning knife with half the blade snapped off and filed to a sort of tanto type chisel point.

Steven, if it helps, I use a machete to rough my blanks out from their natural form.  I tried several saws and didn't like the results.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Wabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ChuckRocks on Apr 29th, 2013 at 6:20pm
What would determine an ideal shape for a rabbit stick?
Must they be pointy at the ends and if so, why?
Does a bunny bopper need to fly with a flat bottom to bop them on the head?
How long should a stick be. Howie Long is an ex NFL quarterback.
Does anyone lash a stone to one end for better bopping?

Can you use a rabbit stick on another small fuzzy critter like Fluffy, my neighbor's gator-bate poodle which keeps me awake all night. Or would that make it a fuzzy stick?

Sick minds want to know why you don't use a sling shot or bow or blow dart because my 62 year old body is not going to do well with a flippin' stick.
ChuckRocks_3.jpg (30 KB | )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Apr 29th, 2013 at 8:03pm
Your poodle hunting gopher can't hit Fluffy like that, the Mk19 is a high angle of fire weapon, tell him to take his left paw off the trigger and put it on the T&E.  You really ought to get him a .50 cal. M2 or M3.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by perpetualstudent on Jul 10th, 2013 at 10:56am
I recently moved and in addition to having a backyard there were storms last week that knocked down some decent branches.

I've set aside 3 portions of wood for 2 rabbit sticks and a club. I roughly sized them but haven't started carving them yet. Should I season the wood? If so for how long?

Other related question: For the curved rabbit sticks, does it matter if the belly or back is pointed to the target in the initial throw?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Jul 10th, 2013 at 12:24pm
I've been profiling mine so the belly is forward....never tried them the other way.  And as far as to season or shape it green, that's entirely up to you and the tools you choose to work with.  I've been carving mine green and then oiling them so they season slower...but if I were to use tools like a sureform or a sander, I would season first.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by lobohunter on Jul 17th, 2013 at 8:42pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR1j7VA9jF4

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Pikċru on Jul 17th, 2013 at 10:59pm
For the love of pizza, this guy talks so much! I would like to see him kill a deer like the video claims. I could definately kill a deer with a throwing stick. If I first attached it to the bumper of my truck. :)

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by walter on Jul 17th, 2013 at 11:02pm

lobohunter wrote on Jul 17th, 2013 at 8:42pm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR1j7VA9jF4


He's pretty good with that stick :-?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Aug 12th, 2013 at 1:21pm
Hello everybody! I am a new member in the forum. Mainly interested in archery and have been working on reviving of Turkish archery culture for almost 10 years. Other primitive weapons somehow became a part of my interest, as a result of the research and contemplation about archery but also thanks to some happy coincidences. Recently I am playing with throwing sticks and succeeded to  make a few functional ones. Here you'll find video clip I made. You may find it interesting.

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/watch?v=uUm0H06APpc

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Aug 12th, 2013 at 1:32pm
I have made throwing sticks from paperboard to understand the mechanism of the action and the principles of their aerodynamics. Then I bought Cold Steel's "hunting boomerang" to see what I would expect from such a tool/weapon. After reading an article in an old German magazine "Bumerangwelt" (issues from 1990's are available on the internet) I switched to polyethylene and never looked back. It is approximately the same weight of wood and is much tougher. You do not have to follow any grain, so you are free in choosing or modifying the TS's design. So far the furthest distance I could achieve is around 60 metres, nearly 1-1 1/2 m above the ground. Except the right devaition at the end of the flight path, they fly straight. Still experimenting with them and now tryjng to have a good flight characteristic with a rabbit stick with oval x-section. Your experience would help understand how well (or weak) my TS behave. Any feed-back is appreciated.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Aug 13th, 2013 at 9:50am
Hello and welcome to the site.  Post lots of pictures, there are lots of re enactors and experimenters here, we are all interested in both subjects.

As far as throwing sticks, they are an airfoil, so the bottom should be flatter than the top to get the lift to keep them in level flight.  An oval cross section will work but will not get the lift that the airfoil will.  Someone gave me a section of caribou antler that was "L" shaped, I split it lengthwise and got two throwing sticks(?) that sail great.  With just a flick of the wrist, they will sail 50-60 yards (55m) about 18 inches (1/2m) off the ground.  One goes straight, the other has a slight curve in one end and tends to curve into the wind if thrown across it.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Oct 1st, 2013 at 1:45pm
Here is a new video showing me throwing my lil-lil AAAND, my first throw with a sling. As I told you before, my main interest is archery. I have made and shot some primitive weapons like atlatl and throwing sticks but has never been motivated enough to give the sling a try. Your site inspired me a lot and here it is. It is a short throw (compared with the data on this site) with some rocks I found around. I don't know what the effects of the parametres like the shape, form and weight of the projectile would be. Your comments (about both the sling and TSs) will be appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eec6ABNo0KI&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by David Morningstar on Oct 1st, 2013 at 3:27pm

That is good slinging for a beginner, you are not shaming us! I would suggest two things:

I think your throw 'follows the sling' and does not 'lead the sling' enough. You should throw early, to move your hand as much as possible before the sling reacts and whips into high speed.

I think your hand is too far forward when you throw. With a shorter throw length you will not get a big reaction from the sling. More throw length, like more draw length in archery, give more power. Try standing completely sideways to the target like in archery, and holding your arm directly behind you with your hand at about head height. To throw, turn your body and whip the sling into a wide side-arm throw with the palm of the hand facing forwards.

What weight of ammunition are you slinging? Stones or sun dried clay balls of ~90 grams work well. More weight means more power!

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Oct 1st, 2013 at 4:16pm
Thanks a lot! Will work on this.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Oct 2nd, 2013 at 12:49pm
I would also suggest stepping into the throw.  This puts all the muscles in your upper torso into the throw instead of just your arm.

As far as throwing sticks, you must keep in mind that one size did not fit everything.  There were throwing sticks for waterfowl, such as yours and there were throwing sticks for small animals on the ground, such as rabbits.  There was some overlap but normally the ones used for ducks and other water fowl were longer and sailed better while the ones for use on rabbits in brush were shorter and more club shaped.  They were flat but that was more for ease of carrying than for flight, you could "stack" two or three in your off hand and have a couple more in your belt.  And also, most throws will be under 20 meters.

The Choctaw Indians still have large organized rabbit hunts in Mississippi where the only weapon allowed is a throwing stick.  They range from wooden dowels with a large metal nut on one end to very carefully shaped airfoils that are very similar to yours.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Oct 2nd, 2013 at 4:44pm
I know that there are rabbit sticks that are no more than a piece of straight or curved wooden stick with cylindirical x-section. The aerodynamic ones attract me somehow, perhabs because they are sophisticated and more difficult to make. Previous throws with other self-made TSs showed that even a 20 m shot at a target on the ground requires a lift to some extent for a flatter trajectory. That way, a up-down adjustment is not necessary and the TS is more accurate.

I have been working on a new one that is more like an American rabbit stick. With its unfinished form it is heavy and flies terrible. With this one I aim to achieve less sailing but some sort of "flight" for targets at ground level.

It is inspring that Choctaws maintain this tradition. Is any photo of such a hunt available?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Oct 5th, 2013 at 7:56am
These are normally family or clan outings, you have to be related to go on one.  I'll see if I can get some pictures.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Kjev on Oct 5th, 2013 at 9:25am

Pikċru wrote on Jul 17th, 2013 at 10:59pm:
For the love of pizza, this guy talks so much! I would like to see him kill a deer like the video claims. I could definately kill a deer with a throwing stick. If I first attached it to the bumper of my truck. :)


I tried this summer with a Dodge Neon. Snot all up the windshield, her body caved in the door and left "not snot" all down the side of the car. Totaled the car and the deer was nowhere to be found. Better use the wife's Ford Excursion next time. >:(

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by manu3259 on Oct 17th, 2013 at 2:14pm
Hi everybody,

I like sometimes to throw rabbit sticks, so here are some pics of them. Most are made from hornbeam (charme in France ), because i can find good curved shapes easily here.

In the last picture, the middle one was too large, it broke at first throw  ;D (the staight stick is 1 meter long)




Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by deerdude68 on Dec 16th, 2013 at 2:23pm
pics please ;)

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by manu3259 on Jun 28th, 2014 at 1:41pm
Hello,
today i show you my new stick: they are both ~450 grammes, the left has a oval section, the right a plano-convex section. i throw them at maximum 35m range, it seems short but they are maybe too heavy. But its fun to throw and a good warmup before slinging. :)

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Morphy on Jul 1st, 2014 at 12:39am
35 meters is still a good range for hunting rabbits. Those are really nice. Makes me want to make one. I imagine they hit quite hard? 

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by timann on Jul 2nd, 2014 at 11:24am
Nice sticks, I particulary like the left one.  I have in fact been looking at some saplings shaped like that in a nearby hazel thicket...
Throwing distance is a very individual thing, myself I`m distance inhibited and focus mostly on close range accuracy.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Jul 2nd, 2014 at 12:04pm
there are some real nice honeysuckle "kinks" near me.
I have personally found honeysuckle to be the toughest wood I have ever seen- if you can find a piece over 1" diameter.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by manu3259 on Jul 3rd, 2014 at 10:49am
honeysuckle, is this a kind of liana or creeper plant ?
Here in europa I think the best wood for rabbit stick is "dogwood" "cornouiller" in french, "cornus mas" scientific name. it's a uncommon shrub, so hard to find in thick diameter.


timann wrote on Jul 2nd, 2014 at 11:24am:
Nice sticks, I particulary like the left one.  I have in fact been looking at some saplings shaped like that in a nearby hazel thicket...
Throwing distance is a very individual thing, myself I`m distance inhibited and focus mostly on close range accuracy.


That is a good thing, because accuracy and speed are low when you try to trow for distance, so it's not very effective;

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Pikċru on Jul 3rd, 2014 at 11:34pm

ela_gozlu_avci wrote on Oct 1st, 2013 at 1:45pm:
Here is a new video showing me throwing my lil-lil AAAND, my first throw with a sling. As I told you before, my main interest is archery. I have made and shot some primitive weapons like atlatl and throwing sticks but has never been motivated enough to give the sling a try. Your site inspired me a lot and here it is. It is a short throw (compared with the data on this site) with some rocks I found around. I don't know what the effects of the parametres like the shape, form and weight of the projectile would be. Your comments (about both the sling and TSs) will be appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eec6ABNo0KI&feature=youtu.be


Beautiful throwing stick! I now have a new project idea for my upcoming vacation. The throwing style demonstration was very interesting. I wouldn't have considered throwing vertically for distance. I will routinely throw sidearm but at much shorter distances. My rational being that my weapon has a greater chance of hitting its intended target if it's flying at it on a horizontal plane. I've take rabbits and birds with that way but always at a close range. The overhand throw would definately have its place in certain situations. Thank you for posting that video. Very informative.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by WITS on Jul 12th, 2014 at 3:58pm
  I read some articles on rabbit sticks. In one it clamed ranges out to about 200m(or yards, cant remember right off) at about 2-3' off the ground. I've gotten a few tuned to keep level flight, but there just isn't 200m of level ground here,lol..maybe when I'm in Kansas next.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by curious_aardvark on Jul 13th, 2014 at 12:51pm
if it's 2-3 feet off the ground - how's it going to hit a rabbit ?

Rabbit in field - 'whoosh' as stick flies overhead.
Result: a puzzled but unharmed rabbit. 

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Oxnate on Jul 13th, 2014 at 2:03pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jul 13th, 2014 at 12:51pm:
if it's 2-3 feet off the ground - how's it going to hit a rabbit ?

Rabbit in field - 'whoosh' as stick flies overhead.
Result: a puzzled but unharmed rabbit. 


Rabbits do tend to run and jump away from anything coming towards them.  Not sure how high they jump, but I would think that jumping up into the path of such a stick could be possible.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Jul 15th, 2014 at 1:35am
I'm glad to find this thread active on here.  I've been extensively studying and making Australian Aboriginal Kylies for about 3 years now, and making better and better designs throughout that time, as I've expanded my understanding of the physics of these incredible instruments.  I haven't posted about it on here, to the best of my knowledge, but I'm having great success and would love to discuss. 

By way of introduction, my personal interest is in making heavy hunting kylies and just having fun with target practice and of course target destruction!  I enjoyed reconstructing primitive technology of all kinds throughout my life.

In reference to the questions on rabbits, Paul Campbell wrote that some Native Americans in Southern California preferred their versions of the kylie, known as the "piruiy," to their bows.  The sticks present very little edge for a rabbit to see coming, and can be thrown fairly silently and accurately at long range, over flat desert terrain.  They can be thrown to skim over the surface of the ground, taking rabbits easily, and even getting them on the run.  A man with his sticks could take a couple of rabbits before returning from a day of hunting.  The kylie can sort of fly after the animal, chasing it down as it runs directly away from the hunter. Even once the stick strikes the ground it will bounce and slide along and keep enough energy to still do the damage needed to get the quarry.  It rapidly rotates as it flies and cuts a wide 28" or so swath, so throws don't have to be perfectly accurate and can still strike their mark. 

The quote from Callahan that states that the kylie flies 2'-3' above the ground for around 200 meters, is true for well tuned lighter weight instruments.  He was stating it that way because he was test throwing for maximum distance straight flight, and that's the performance he observed.  In hunting they'd throw straight to the target, whether it be far away or close by.  They would not have to worry about trajectory because the trajectory of a kylie is the same as that of a laser beam.  Even a bullet flies on a trajectory but a kylie flies straight to anything you throw it at, out to about 80-200 yards or so, depending on the weight of the stick, design, and tuning. 

When I say it flies in a perfectly straight line, I mean it flies without rising or falling the entire flight distance.  It does this until all the energy is gone, out at long range, at which point it quickly falls to the ground.  In fact the flight dynamics of the kylie are almost miraculous, like something out of a batman movie.  It uses the gyroscopic precession principle of the boomerang to adjust and keep itself in perfect balance throughout the flight path.  The correct tuning of the instrument is necessary to achieve this.  It's neat to watch once the balance is correct.  I have loved slinging for years now, but the kylie has captured my heart the most of anything I've done with primitive weapons.   

The record for the longest throw of an object without any velocity-aiding feature is 427.2 m (1,401.5 ft) by David Schummy (Australia), with a straight flying boomerang or "kylie."  It was done, 15 March 2005 at Murrarie Recreation Ground, Australia.  You can find the video on youtube.  Just type in "Longest Boomerang Throw- Guinness World Records" 

My sticks won't go 400+ meters, but are much heavier and more traditional than the specialized light weight one thrown by David.  At 8-14oz, my kylies are meant to be similar to the large hunting sticks of the Australian Aborigines, with about the same type of performance.  They fly straight horizontal flight paths for a maximum range of about 70-110 yards.  That distance is longer than I care to walk to retrive them!! 

My favorite weight kylie is around 12oz.  I like to throw it at targets regularly at 30-70 meters.  I'm fairly consistent at any of these ranges, and MUCH more accurate than I am with the sling.  I have learned a lot about throwing accuracy from slinging, which has applied directly to kylie throwing. 

Again back to the rabbit question: in a flat desert type environment another dynamic to kylie tuning can come into play.  I'm not sure how commonly this was used, but I've observed that kylies can be tuned to fly straight, as described above, or to rise gradually higher and higher.  This depends on the preference of the thrower.  This rising effect can be beneficial for skimming the ground, as a man can throw below/towards a rabbit on the ground, say 30 meters in front of him, and the kylie will rise out of the shallow dive, to skim just above the surface of the ground for several meters before eventually pulling up off the ground into the air again.  This gives the hunter a wider area at which he can skim the ground with the kylie, and as long as the rabbit is in his zone, he can slide the stick right into it over the surface of the ground.  The above explanation is something I've seen for myself in practice, but it is not my preference for kylie tuning, and I don't really know what technique was most common in different areas of the world for ancient rabbit hunts.  I don't specialize in rabbit hunting; I just know what's possible with kylies.

My favorite way to tune a kylie is for perfectly straight flight path with no rising or falling of the stick in flight.  The Aborigines in Australia could take Emu with their throwing sticks out at 40-60 meters.  I figure on a leg shot that the same thing would apply for most species of deer with my own kylies at the same ranges.  These ranges are similar to hunting with a .22LR, although more skill is needed with the kylie!

I'll attach some pictures of the power a kylie has.  I took these a few years ago with one of my earlier designs.  The one penetrating this plywood is only 9.5oz, so relatively lightweight.  The throw was done from about 40 yards away as I recall.  The power of heavier sticks is comparable to that of a sling, in my opinion.

The kylie also makes a very helpful multi-tool when carried in the bush.  I clear weeds, branches, out of my way etc..., with it.  A good way to kill rattlesnakes as well.  Also useful for digging.  And the hooked kylies can be used to assist some climbing on hills.  I live in the hills so it's fun to have a kylie along with me when I take a walk.  My 5 year old son comes with me and you can bet he has his kylie with him as well. 

The kylie is a great opportunistic hunting tool, which can be unleashed much more quickly than a sling or even a gun.  Once on my property a few yeas ago, I stumbled on a couple of mule deer which were only about 25 yards in front of me.  I had a kylie in hand already, and could have taken a leg shot on any of them.  I held myself back from the throw, since it would have been completely illegal, among other reasons.  I scared them off and took the shot at a low hanging dead oak branch instead, hitting my mark.   

Ben   






Pierced.JPG (427 KB | 101 )
New_Target__Old_Target.JPG (423 KB | 141 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by walter on Jul 16th, 2014 at 5:38pm
Nice lookimg stick whipartist! What kind of wood is it made from? Any shaping guidlines you might want to share would be greatly appreciated :)

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Jul 17th, 2014 at 12:49am
Walter,

I am using polycarbonate plastic.  It's super, super tuff!!  It holds up to our terrain around here.  I am hoping to do some work in scrub oak in the future, (which is a traditional CA material for these things), but I don't want to disfigure my trees finding the perfect branch.  The other downside is that my property is covered in huge sharp granite rocks, so I can't use hard wood unless I want to destroy it when I throw it and tune it up.  The polycarbonate is good consistent stuff to work with and has really assisted my learning how these things work.  If they hit a rock, they get a ding in them and that's no big deal.  I can often take the dings out with a hammer and anvil. 

As far as shape goes, I'm really trying to not re-invent the wheel at this point, just rediscover it.  I have a large collection of pictures of the originals from Australia, along with lengths and weights.  You can find these pictures on the internet.  I'm looking for trends in design and airfoil, just off those pictures.  The Aborigines seemed to be more interested in the plano-convex type airfoils, so that's what I start with.  Callahan recommends lenticular airfoils and I will be experimenting more in the future with those to see if I can add more range.  But truthfully I'm really happy with the plano-convex.  If a kylie goes too far around here, it gets lost.  It's hard enough to find them in the weeds at the ranges I'm throwing.    

Here's a picture of two recent kylies I made, on top of a 10' Raiders of The Lost Ark style bullwhip I made the same week.  I thought a shot together would be nice.  The bullwhip and the black and orange kylie were made to sell.  The black and white kylie was for myself, as a treat once I was done working for others!  It's my favorite kylie to date.  It's a Central Desert design, tapered, about 67cm and 330 grams.  The black and orange was a bit smaller, in a Northern Territory hooked design.  Both fly mystically well.

Ben 
10__Bullwhip_and_Two_Kylies.JPG (459 KB | 124 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by manu3259 on Jul 17th, 2014 at 7:48am
:)
very interesting whipartist !
so the two killies on the last picture are still in plastic ? On the photo are these plano convex, so this is the upside and the underside is flat ?
The brand cold steel sells a killie, called unapropriate "boomerang" in tough plastic, wich seems to have a kind of hexagonal section.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Morphy on Jul 17th, 2014 at 8:46pm
You know, if I remember correctly some of the oak we have around here is extremely dense wood. Some of the densest in NA if I am correct? (Like above 1.0 SG?) Seems like a great material for a throwing stick. Man you have me really interested in these. Sure seems like an easier weapon to kill small game with than our beloved sling. (Blasphemy I know.)

^^Very nice work by the way. On both types of weapons.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Jul 18th, 2014 at 3:09am
Manu,

All of them are polycarbonate plastic, which is a nearly indestructable material.  Hard and heavy but not brittle.  My first kylie was the cold steel!  I love a lot of cold steel's products.  Their pipehawk is an awesome and tuff tool, for instance.  But their boomerang is no better than a heavy stick in my opinion.  Again, I really like their products but they didn't score with this one.  The plastic was too soft too, and really got beat up around here with all the granite rocks.  Eventually I planed the bottom of their kylie down and it extended the range a little bit, but I was getting a maximum of 45 yards range out of hard throws, and not the straight flight paths I wanted. 

Gary Broadbent the boomerang maker was extremely generous and sent me a small kylie he had made which went 100 yards with some minimally excessive lift causing it to rise somewhat above the point I was throwing at.  Beautiful flights.  He helped me believe that the correct flight path was possible.  So I set off alone to make it happen, and now it has.  In terms of man sized target quality accuracy and straight flight paths, generally those are out to about 60-70 yards tops, with maximum range being a bit more when I throw my absolute hardest.  It depends on the stick and how well I'm throwing too.  It's a skill, just like slings, and takes some practice to get right.  If I throw with full force I get slightly longer ranges than the above, but slightly rising flight paths past the target range.  At distance it hardly looks like the stick has risen at all, but in terms of striking a target precisely, it's a few feet rise, as with Gary's stick, and the kylie runs out of steam and falls out of the sky. 

I have some future experiments to do with other wing designs.  I believe I can improve my design until I get longer and longer straight flight path's than I am now, by reducing drag as much as possible.  I have a lot of ideas about how that would be correctly done.  But it's not of much practical value for hunting purposes since accuracy, flight times, etc, would be too long and the shots less and less likely to succeed in taking game.  Also increased risk of loss of the kylie is more than possible in 100 yard+ throws.  Still, I will continue to work it all out as I have time and finances, since the longer the straight flight path, the more amazing the instrument really is.

Correct, the top is curved and the underside is flat.

Morphy,

I'm glad you like the sticks.  If you're around here, I'll have to show you sometime.  I want to get into using scrub oak and white oak someday, as I can.  But for now I'm putting the work into these since they are cheaper, more durable and easier to manufacture and tune.  Wood, has so much tendency to warp as it looses moisture, and the originals were high maintenance weapons, which kept in tune by this owners.  Selecting the right bent branches, harvesting them at the right times, seasoning the wood, carving, tuning, and so on, is more work than I have time and health for these days.  The other thing is that my property is so abusive to these things that I can't afford to carve something of oak and then throw it around here and get it all chipped up.

I went to the forest today and made some throws, and all I can say is that it's a cushy environment compared to home!

You are correct on the weight of the oak.  The polycarbonate plastic is almost identical in weight for a given mass to the oak.  It will sink in water.  The California Indians favored scrub oak for their sticks, for whatever reason, and stated that it had to be harvested during the full moon.         

I went to the forest with some friends today, and while we were hiking we had the time to take some videos of me throwing a kylie.  I just put up a youtube channel last night because I had planned to do this, and have been wanting to open a channel on youtube for some time.  I will be adding more videos as I find them and make more.  I took some more footage of the kylies when I got home, but unfortunately video quality is low on everything.  Hopefully you enjoy and will give me the thumb's up.  On youtube my channel is Whipartist.  Make sure you put the W in caps or else you'll get the wrong channel.

Yeah, I love slings immensely, and brought my sling today in the woods too, although sling stones were too sparce to find, so I didn't get any footage of the action.  Those green pinecones are good though, aren't they!  I think slings are a great tool of early civilization, for the shepherd to direct a flock from a distance, and for defense against predators, of course.  I've chased down a fox after my chickens with sling stones. Very effective!  And the primitive farmer, in guarding his crops from birds, deer and squirrels, will find the sling of great value.  It's also a great and lethal weapon of war!  But for hunting I think something much quicker to deploy and be more precise with is better.  Stalking is an essential part of primitive hunting, as well as a quick shot once you get close.  The kylie, atlatl, bow and arrow, blowgun, etc..., are all better in my opinion when it comes to hunting, then our beloved sling.    

Ben

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by algorias on Jul 18th, 2014 at 4:46am
Looks like you're having fun! Here's a direct link to the channel, I wasn't able to find it just searching for Whipartist. This whole case sensitive thing is very weird with youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5R5IFFzD4u6ZGrKLODG8ZQ

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Jul 18th, 2014 at 10:43pm
Whipartist, have you ever tried carving lengthwise grooves into the stick/boomerang/kylie/etc?
It extends the range slightly by the boundary layer effect(less air friction).
I tried it, and I found it to be a lot of work.
NOTE: this is NOT my picture- but it shows what I mean well

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Jul 19th, 2014 at 12:20am
squirrelslinger,

You're right and that is one of my ideas for extending ranges further.  I have seen this grooved effect on most of the central desert kylies in Australia.  It's always a sign it's a good one.  Imagine doing that with a rock! 

When I carve the kylie's I use a course rasp and never attempt to smooth the surfaces to perfection, in fact I'm aiming to leave the lengthwise marks in it.  Just a little sand paper and that's all after the carving.

I haven't gone beyond that in my experiments by carving actual grooves, but I am wanting to try that at some point in time.  I have been thinking about it and I just need to either find or make the right tool and it should be somewhat easy.  Something that allows for good even rows, carving maybe 3 rows simultaneously. 

I took some more footage in better video quality tonight after work.  If I can get the format and file size to work out, I'll upload a couple videos or just splice them together.

Anyone have ideas on tools that could do this?  I'll attach a picture of an aboriginal kylie which I found on an auction sight on the web.

Ben
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Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Jul 19th, 2014 at 1:15am
I think you can buy little circle-like things like this:

I found 8 in an old workbench. I use them quite a bit to hollow stuff out but they also do an amazing job of carving grooves into stuff.
you have to keep them sharp though.
I hone mine to 1500 grit.
:P
I need to find that ole boomerang I made from cherry wood.
I can chuck it almost 60 yards before it flies up and away.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Jul 19th, 2014 at 1:17pm
That sorta looks like charred or heated to shrink down the summer growth rings. Kinda like sandblasted wood.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Jul 19th, 2014 at 2:37pm

Arcane Tinker wrote on Jul 19th, 2014 at 1:17pm:
That sorta looks like charred or heated to shrink down the summer growth rings. Kinda like sandblasted wood.

but it isn't.
There is evidence and specimens prove that the Aussies actually carved the grooves because it made the boomerangs fly further.
But I see your point. Looking at it with that idea, it makes some sense.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Jul 19th, 2014 at 9:57pm
squirrelslinger,

For some reason I'm not seeing the pictures you're attaching?  I don't know if it's my computer or what.  I was hoping to see what you were talking about.  I have a gunstock checkering set I might experiment with too, but it's not exactly what I had in mind. 

AT,

Here's a picture of another aboriginal kylie with close up of the grooves.  These are beautiful pieces of bushcraft work. 

Here's a link to one of a few videos I put up last night after work, to try to get footage with better video quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0UiEooqGlw

Ben
rf08.jpg (95 KB | 132 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Jul 20th, 2014 at 12:35am

Whipartist wrote on Jul 19th, 2014 at 9:57pm:
squirrelslinger,

For some reason I'm not seeing the pictures you're attaching?  I don't know if it's my computer or what.
Ben

http://www.michaelhamson.com/new_items_jun10/May_10__616.jpg
that is the one of the grooved boomerang.

here's the carving tool:
http://www.widgetsupply.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/excel-20730-2pc-round-carving-router-tn.jpg

I shouldn't be calling them boomerangs.
Those sticks are absolutely beautiful.

Your accuracy is incredible.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:02am
Thank you for the last picture Whipartist.  That example is definitely tooled and you can clearly see that the grooving does not follow the natural grain. 

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Morphy on Jul 20th, 2014 at 9:21pm
You could probably take a cheap cross cut saw blade (perhaps like a sawzall) and drag it along the wood. You could dull it with a file first to get a rounder finished product. You would only need to file a couple inches worth of the teeth to save time.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Jul 21st, 2014 at 1:35am
Thanks for the help with tool ideas.  The saw blade idea could be useful because it's certain that carving grooves is easier to do precisely than rounded channels.  Having multiple channels lining up side to side makes for less following of the previous channel on the work.  Again, I'm amazed at the work the aborigines did with stone tools.  Certainly they were very patient. 

A round gouge would work too if I had half the patience of the aborigines! 
 
Ben

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Morphy on Jul 21st, 2014 at 9:32am
Personally I'm just as amazed at how they came up with these concepts in the first place.  Grooves to make it fly farther? How amazing is that.

In archery another one that was used by "primitive" people was grooving the arrows and then heating them to make them stay straighter, longer.

In their own way, with the materials they had, they were truly genius.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Jul 21st, 2014 at 10:25am
What about pressing them into the wood. A crowned steel wheel with a long axle through it. You could roll it along like  rolling pin and compress a groove in the wood.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by squirrelslinger on Jul 21st, 2014 at 12:26pm
if it gets too humid they might just pop back out.
And the pressure required is quite high.
And it would be difficult to go around contours.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by manu3259 on Jul 21st, 2014 at 2:04pm
maybe a kind of heated iron like a pyrographer. It would not look like the pictures your posted, but their would be grooves.
i didn't realize these killies were such pieces of art;

Whipartist, your killies are very nice flying.  :D I suppoze they are made from polycarbonate boards?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Morphy on Jul 21st, 2014 at 9:39pm
Whipartist, have you ever played around with lighter Kylies? Like half the weight of the ones you are using?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Jul 22nd, 2014 at 12:54am
Yes polycarbonate boards.  Wonderful material!  Yes I have done the smaller stuff too.  It's easiest and cheapest to experiment on smaller models rather than full scale.

I have a couple that are just under 14" long and weigh almost nothing, but fly beautifully.  You can throw them with just two fingers and the thumb as a grip.  Great little toys. 

With a hammer grip you can throw heavier kylies still, but the overall velocity of the throw is reduced on this grip and the spin is enhanced.  I'm still experimenting with this.  My biggest kylie is 400 grams right now and about 72 cm.  I can throw it with either grip but I feel somewhat weak on the extended grip with such a long heavy stick.  The aborigines made some which were heavier than this still, but not all of them were.  This indicates to me that both grips could have been common.  Length is as difficult to manage as weight is.  Every cm longer increases the effort needed to throw well. 

Callahan concluded that about 12 oz and about 27" was ideal.  I basically agree with him so far but I will continue to experiment and learn.

I was thinking of using a 4mm u gouge to carve the channels.  I don't know if I have the patience or skill to do that, for what I'm trying to achieve.  I don't know if it will be better than my rough cut finish or not.  Last night I experimented with a gunstock checkering set I have but I wasn't too impressed with how well it worked.  Way too fine.

Here's some pictures I pieced together of mostly mid sized kylies around 24"-25"


Ben
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Mid_Sized_And_Tiny.JPG (397 KB | 142 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Jul 22nd, 2014 at 1:35pm
I've made stuff using stone tools.  The close up of the second kylie looks like it was abraded, not cut.  The maker took a toothed stone blade and went from one tip to the end, pressing lightly, then he repeated until he got the depth he wanted. 

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Jul 25th, 2014 at 1:27am
Toothed stone blade and lots of patience.  On the other hand, a much more relaxing and satisfying way to spend a day than most of what we encounter in this age.  Primitive technology meant technological independence.  And that meant some measure of real freedom.  Until the more hi-tech stuff came along and made the playing field unequal.      

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Lee_the_slinger on Jul 27th, 2014 at 10:11pm
Hey y'all I'm fairly new to the forums here and I saw this thread yesterday and decided I had to have a rabbit stick  :) so I went out today and got a good branch. Its made from cedar which I'm sure probably ain't the best wood for this but cedars are plentiful on our property and the oaks we have don't usually have low branches, anyway I made it using only a hatchet and a couple of knives it's not pretty and it's kinda long about 35 inches I'm not sure how well it'll fly I haven't had a chance to test it. So what do y'all think, have any of y'all used cedar before, is it any count for rabbit sticks? Did I possibly make it too long? I would post a picture of it but I'm having trouble the WiFi is down and I'm having to battle terrible cell reception so I'll try tomorrow at work I'll have better signal.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by okapimike on Jul 28th, 2014 at 4:09am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO-4IQq-D44

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Lee_the_slinger on Jul 28th, 2014 at 2:44pm
Thanks for the video link okapimike I'm sure it would probably help me out unfortunately with my WiFi down I haven't any way to watch it at the time being my cell reception is barely holding up enough to be able to post. Also rather unfortunate I can't seem to post pictures of my rabbit stick theyre within the kb limit and it's a jpeg so I'm thinking either it's my phone or the resolution is too high (lowest res my phone takes is 1280x960).

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Aug 28th, 2014 at 2:32am
I've put some work into refining and standardizing my kylie designs since I last posted on here.  I've been experimenting with the paint jobs too, with some attractive results.

One thing, that has helped, is a courser grooved finish on the top surface of the sticks.  This seems to help them keep a faster spin out at long range and fly more aerodynamically than without the course finish.  The faster spin allows for a slightly altered tuning which makes for a longer flight path.    

I've been able to boost my maximum distance on my kylies by about 10-20 yards since last posting!  Average straight level throws on my full sized sticks are now at about 70-80 yards, depending on how hard you're throwing and how much accuracy you are demanding. 

My personal best distance, yesterday with the heavy kylie, (only throwing 3 times) and throwing directly at a tree trunk standing 5' above the ground, was 93 yards!  I set up my throws so I could take careful measurements with Google Earth, and didn't have a lot of time on my hands or I would have thrown more. 

I know I can beat that distance if I stop aiming and just let loose!  I will be doing some additional distance throws on Thursday, at the park, if there is space available. 

During the final few yards of a 93 yard throw, the stick will rise just slightly and fall off slightly to the side, making the maximum target range somewhere more around 70-80 yards give or take, in which target accurate straight and level flight is achieved.  This final roll off, which occurs during the final 10-15 yards, is nice for helping you to see where the stick lands.  It sort of flags itself up, and you know to look for the kylie just to the right of your target, if you missed.  At these ranges I fear loosing the stick.  I can alternately tune the sticks to not do this, but a few yards are dropped off the flight range that way. 
 
I just uploaded a video to youtube on my Whipartist Channel, if anyone wants to see a few of the new sticks.  The black and orange kylie does not have the grooved finish, as you'll notice, but the others do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGcQbLSoCYU

I'm starting to sell these from my website on a limited basis, so I'll probably keep working on different designs in the future as people are interested.  I really love making, tuning and throwing them, but running them down is a lot of exercise!  Boomerangs are less tiring because they come back!!  Last week I threw the 330 gram stick so much that my arm went out of commission for a while!   

Another update, sadly, after having thrown kylies for a few years now, I just had my first failure of the polycarbonate plastic.  I had a kylie which hit an angular, sharp and solidly anchored part of a metal gate, and it nicked the edge pretty badly, and shattered the kylie cleanly in half behind the nick.  That stick had been thrown hundreds if not thousands of times at full force against solid objects.  It has been used to break oak branches by hand, and was on of my favorites to use and abuse.  It had hit rocks, fence posts, chainlink fence, busted through plywood, etc, hundreds of times without more than some minor dings and dents in the edges.  This time the sharp solid metal of this portion of the gate was too much for it, and it did break.  My 5 year old son cried when he saw the dead stick.  We've had a few adventures while I had that very stick in hand.  RIP good friend. 
      

Ben
330g67c.JPG (454 KB | 136 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Morphy on Aug 28th, 2014 at 2:50pm
Wow I can't believe how much abuse that polycarbonate can take. You're spoiled now, it's going to be a pain to use the wood ones now lol.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Aug 29th, 2014 at 11:08am
I have been experimenting with other designs to understand the fundamentals, i.e. the length-width-weight ratios. So, first of all thanks a lot for giving the length and mass datas of your Kylies. It will be helpful. In a fistful kylies I made I never droped to 300 gram range. The recent one I made is a new design which I painted like a head of a bird of prey. It was not intentionally shaped like that. Material is cardboard as I used in my very early kylies. Cardboard has special gravitiy of 0,8 gram/cm^3 and could be considered as identical to many medium-weight wood species. I have not weigh it, but I will. Contrary to the previous few that I preferred biconvex cross-section this one has a planconvex one. The very first test throws (without any attempt to tune) revealed 55 m flights, parallel to the ground. I am going to share a flight test video as soon as I can shoot.
IMG_7371.JPG (75 KB | 149 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Aug 29th, 2014 at 11:09am
And it is a short-small one as an be seen here.
IMG_7374.JPG (71 KB | 121 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Arcane Tinker on Aug 29th, 2014 at 8:05pm
What sort of cardboard? Not the corrugated type that large boxes are made of, I would think that sort of cardboard is too light. Are you using the heavy solid stock, the sort like used on the backs of drawing paper tablets?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Aug 29th, 2014 at 9:22pm
Exactly. Not the corrugated type with canals but the pressed, solid type. It is available as plates in various thicknesses, so it's comfortable to choose one (or more) to reach the wanted overall thickness by glueing laminates to each other. I am using carpenter glue to bind the layers as well as to cover the finished TS with a protective shield. And I finish it with wood varnish as a more reliable protection against moisture.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Aug 30th, 2014 at 11:36pm
I went to the park yesterday and with a side wind, I was able to get flights from about 98-102 yards straight. 

I was incorrect above about loosing a few yards range on the kylies which are tuned to not pop up at the end of the flight.  The one which I recently got 93 yards with is awesome, but the ones which beat it yesterday, didn't pop up and fall off to the right.  They went further.  They just flew straight out for 100 yards without turning or popping up at all.  And they beat the one which did pop up, by about 10 yards on most throws. 

I'm going to re-tune the one that pops up.  I think the energy is slightly wasted on that final pop as it rises against the gravity and that energy can be harnessed to go further.  Of course if I tune them down too much, then they fall short too, so it's a delicate balance out at such long range.  But once it's done it's done. 

Ela, there are a lot of pictures of Aboriginal kylies online from which I got design ideas.  Flight toys website has them as well as auction sights.  You'll get some weight and length measurements there.  Many are quite heavy, so you're not far off if you were above 300 grams.  It's just a matter of what your goals are.  I've made kylies that weigh less than and two ounces and fly to 60 yards.  And big ones just short of a pound which I struggle to throw at full speed but which fly well at the slower speed I can throw them at. 

300 gram range is capable of being thrown at full speed and that's what I like about it.  If the stick is too slow to the target, the target might run away.....   

   

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by manu3259 on Sep 1st, 2014 at 3:16pm
I watched your video, Whipartist, these are beautiful sticks. You have probably reached the limit of solidity for a non metallic stick  ;) Maybe if someone would use titanium for a rabbit stick it would be stronger, but the price would be great.  ;D i think your sticks are tough enough, us, stick and boomerang throwers, know they all will break or be lost one day.  :)

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 12:54am
Titanium Kylies!  Now you're talking!!  I doubt that I will have another breakage anytime soon.  That stick was pushed past normal limits.  Certainly normal use isn't what I put these things through! 


Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Sep 2nd, 2014 at 1:37pm
Whipartist,

Thank you very much for all the tips you're giving. Really appreciated.

I started making Kylies with lil-lil design. This is an Australian gigantic Kylie that is also called a "club boomerang" due to its enormous size and mass. It was supposed to be a fighting club as well as a throwing stick (Pls see my previous video). My lil-lil was 10-15 cm shorter and 60-100 gram lighter than 500+ gram originals. A few days ago I made a new kylie from hardboard and for the first time it was too light and rose aggressively (please watch video). However, it flew well over 60 m and stopped by the tribune around the field, would have been landed as far as 80 meters from the throwing point. I thickened it by adding another hardboard laminate instead of playing with lead weight. We'll see how it'll respond.

In the video you'll see different kylies with completely different flight characteristics (please read the explanation under the vid). Except the most recent one all the kylies are on the "heavier" side. I believe that these were designed to throw at bigger targets and from relatively closer distances, i.e. kangaroos or even humans. Lil-lil's relatively vertical throw requirment indicates that it is not for varmints or other creatures living on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhOD-vOumXE&feature=youtu.be

Your design is lighter than mines despite the excessive length. More wing surface with lower mass means more lift.

What you may find interesting is I'm experimenting with a very unique design. A "snake-baton" as called by Howard Carter, the archaeologist who found King Tutankhamun's tomb. Among 30-something throwing sticks two were of this type. Another Egyptian tomb's wall painting shows a hunting scene and the use of such a TS. In the video there is a short footage showing me in front of the original painting in the British Museum in last April. This design is too narrow to create lift, at least I think so. I am making a cardboard prototype. I am going to share the results of my experience.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Sep 5th, 2014 at 11:31am
Hello folks,

I added aother layer to my harboard-made "bird of prey" kylie to increase the weight. In its final shape it weighed 255 gram and the excessive lift is reduced though it should be reduced more for a perfectly-straight flight. I'm going to try negative dehidral to achieve a better flight path. Contrary to the larger one, the smaller one needed a little bit lift and I achieved it by twisting the leading wing. Now,it flies on a beautiful, straight trajectory! It weighs 175 gram in the final shape. A short video clip showing some test throws and the humble throwing stick collection of mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYBo3-7mTAM&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Thearos on Sep 5th, 2014 at 2:11pm
Gözlü avcı ?

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Sep 10th, 2014 at 2:44am
Yeah what's your name Ela Gozlu Avci?  Thanks for sharing the videos. 

You're getting better and better results with the sticks.  Your airfoils are working but you need to get them tuned.  I know the thrill of discovery involved with this.  Keep having fun with these.  My 5 year old son and I spend hours together on "Walkabout".   

Have you read Felix Hess Thesis On Boomerangs yet?  It has some ideas on kylie tuning and can be downloaded for free online.  It gives you something to think about anyway, whether accurate to reality or not.  Theories on aerodynamics and mathematical models are never quite accurate to reality in my experience with them, but Hess is pretty in depth with his.  Kylie tuning is a lot more complex and multi-dimensional than boomerangs apparently are. 

I've variously tuned with skew and dihedral applied to different parts, as well as with the carving of the wing surfaces themselves, and of course the shape of the overall stick.  In this I have found that there are actually multiple ways to correctly make and tune a kylie, including multiple correct airfoils which work as well.  Some ways are more aerodynamically efficient than others and thus hold energy longer.   Skew can cause a lot of drag, for instance. 

Eliminating the right-ward's veer and excessive lift at the end of your flights will increase your range and accuracy quite a bit because the energy will go into forward motion instead of lift and turning, and you'll be able to take accurate shots at targets at longer and longer ranges as you get better and better at tuning. 

My goal is a perfectly straight throw for as far as possible.  I've been spending hours on experiments in the last few months and making new discoveries every week.  Right now I'm at about 65-75 yards target accurate straight throws.  By target accurate I mean that the kylie flies straight like a laser beam.  Distance is irrelevant to me as long as it's 86 yards or less.  Further away, targets appear smaller which means my aim needs to be better.  But I don't throw at a different trajectory than I do at 20 yards.  This range is gradually increasing as I hone the efficiency of my design. 

I've just started experimenting with turbulators so I expect to increase my target ranges and maximum ranges further.  I will report back and eventually get some more videos once I have something new to show.  Video quality is always a concern! 

The way straight line flight is achieved by an instrument which is continually bleeding off its energy as it travels out: is by tuning the kylie to harness gyroscopic precession to very slowly but progressively pitch up little by little, as it travels out - at just the rate necessary to turn forwards energy into continually increasing lift, through continually increasing "direct lift" forces.  It's like a plane coming in for a landing almost.  The nose pitches up as the speed reduces.  The result is that at really long range the kylie's spin appears more and more visible to the thrower as it pitches up (tilts backwards).  At those ranges it starts to loose energy more quickly.  I don't really notice this effect at ranges below 65-80 yards, depending on the efficiency of the stick. 

Heavier and longer kylies will fly just as well as the lighter ones.  Lift is a vague thing which isn't related much to weight, since bigger kylies also have bigger wings.  I never put weights in the wings.  I want the biggest sized stick I can throw. 

The heavier kylies require a different grip and thus throwing technique.  Up to about 340 grams and 67cm I'm able to comfortably use an extended grip, and I'm very accurate with this.  Beyond this in either length or weight, and I use a hammer grip.  The hammer grip allows for much greater weight and length to be managed at full velocity throws. In fact more length and weight are helpful to get good velocity into the throw.  But the hammer grip throwing technique has a bit slightly slower initial velocity than my extended grip technique, with a slightly greater spin rate.  At least that's how it has been for me thus far.  Still, the ranges are good in my experience with them.  380 grams x 72cm to 500 gram x 67cm kylie are typical weights and lengths from Central Desert Aboriginal Australia of the past.

I plan to start making and throwing more sticks in this heavier longer range in the near future, and trying to develop my throwing technique with them.  They are ideal for deer hunting.  But first I want to perfect my design on the mid range ones, which I believe may be better for rabbit hunting, etc....

Ben
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Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Sep 11th, 2014 at 8:34am
Ben,

Thanks a lot for the long, detailed answer.

My name is Murat. I live in Istanbul, Turkey.

My interest in TSs started as a part of the extension of my obcession to traditional archery and interest in Ancient Egypt's civilization. But afterwards, I have  somehow been involved with the prehistorical findings in an archaelogical site in Yenikapi, Istanbul. This site is famous and known internationally too, especially with the excavated 36 ship wrecks from Byzantine era. They had sunk while being anchored in the Harbour of Theodosius, 1200 years ago. Yenikapi excavations have been published in Discovery Channel, in the U.S too, so you might have come across it. A more inspiring aspect of the site is that it has a deeper stratum (layer) that is 6500 to 8500 years old, dated back to the neolitic era of Istanbul. I found the chance to have access to the site in 2009 and coincidently became so involved that I had never dreamed of. I was able to identify some neolitic weapons which the professionals in charge could not. Two of them are throwing sticks and one of them has aerodynamic features. The third piece is a bow fragment. They all are important findings, not only because they are some of the oldest found, but also are they the only wooden prehistoric artefacts excavated in Turkey. A sort of mud (peat?) conserved them perfectly, and luckily there were a serious, well-trained archaeology team on site, and they saved them and started the conservaton preocess immediately. So, that's why my curiosity to TSs grew up in time. Recently, I received the official permission from the Minister of Culture so that I can do research on the artifacts and make replicas of them. What I am focusing on is "experimental archaelogy", i.e finding out how this weapon(s) actually functioned. I made the very first replica of the Yenikapi TS from cardboard (the lamination technique that I mentioned before) and an article based on the very early results is being processed for publication (was given as paper in a symposium).

Nowadays I am working on making copies from different materials based on the model I made. Then, the real reseacrh will start. All the playng with other desgins helped (and is still helping) me understand what I should expect from a TS and how far I could tune one.

Your tips and all the info helped a lot. Thanks again. I knew the PhD dissertation of Dr. Hess but I  did not know that a free Pdf was available (had found only published copies, either unavailable or too expensive), just googled it and downloaded. Will read it in the first occasion. Other than all the available articles on the net (antropologic, archaelogic, and hobby) I read two books:

http://www.amazon.com/Primitive-Technology-Book-Earth-Skills/dp/0879059117
http://www.springer.com/astronomy/astrophysics+and+astroparticles/book/978-0-387-30779-4

Info about tuning straight-flyers is rare. Personal experience is priceless but takes time. I reached 60 m range (perfectly straight) with the most recent TS I made. To decrease lift I tried negatve dehidral and it worked well!

I know that youare curious about the prehistoric TS. I attach I pic showing the original with the first replica I made. Note the crack in the longer wing which is identical to the original (it is abscent), a valuable result that I got from the early test throws. Second replica that I am working on is a better copy (corrected by comparing the 1st with the original) and its copies from materials with various specific weight is on the way (the wood species of the original has not been officially analysed yet).

I'll keep you posted too.

Best,

Murat
IMG_4615.JPG (3841 KB | 225 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Sep 11th, 2014 at 11:51pm
Murat from Istanbul,

Thanks for the fascinating story about the archaeology and the picture.  I find the experimental archeology to be of great interest as well.  I started off with slings in this regard.  Understanding the dynamics of ancient tools through re-creating them and developing expertise, reveals a lot. 

The conclusion of my journey will end in natural wooden replicas, if time permits.  For now I am working in the more stable and durable material, but rediscovering the ancient techniques is a lot of fun.

Properly applied negative dihedral and skew will keep your kylies from pitching up too much.  Every kylie shape tunes differently.  Some things are best done with a blade instead of a bend, because skew causes drag, which shortens ranges.  Too much negative dihedral can make your stick unstable in flight.  Everything inter-relates.  Skew and dihedral are almost the same thing on a bent arm, as Hess points out. 

My experiments with turbulators is a success.  I will refine the technique over more time.  I just made a new flight distance record this morning.  114 yard throw at the park.  With some very fine tuning, I believe I will beat that distance.  I'm aiming for 120 yards next goal!  Most of my throws were about 100 yards today, give or take a little.   

On my own property I've been able to start throwing from the weeds across the road from my property, 72 yards across and hit my targets on the fence.  If you are familiar with my videos you'll be able to place about where I'm standing.  In the videos I'm standing at the road.  Now I'm standing well beyond the other side of the road and throwing at the same targets.  I'm hitting my targets consistently I might add! 

Pictures attached.

I want to do some more refinements before I take more videos, but I eventually will.  At 60 yards you don't even have to throw very hard to get straight flights at your target.  It's incredible.   

(Edit:  I wanted to add that there was no wind at the park this morning.  A back wind would have boosted my range, but I'm trying to take measurements only on non-windy days as much as possible.  For hunting you always want to be throwing into a head wind anyway, because otherwise you won't find prey in the field!). 

Ben
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72_Yards_Target_Throws.JPG (204 KB | 205 )

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Sep 12th, 2014 at 1:32pm
Yes, I am familiar with your videos (I am "abdulkabza" on YouTube) and found the performance of your kylies best among all the videos on the subject. As you say, capturing the flight is always a problem without professional attitude and equipment, but these videos provide great opportunity for the enthusiasts to share their know-how anyway.

A short question about te Egyptian "snake baton" that I have been dealing with lately. I haven't get a proper flght until yesterday Yesterday I realised that it requires a very different way of throw: a weak throw with a very sharp wrist snap! This way, it flew a good 30 meters on a almost straight path and than collapsed and fell down. A strong-powerful throw never worked. What I am wondering is whether t would be appropriate to add some weight to the tips of the wings. Theoretically, it will increase the duration of rotation, hence the flight time and distance, but the increase in total weight may intrfere with that and shorthen the maximm distance. I am not sure whether heavier wing tips enhance the initial rotation.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Sep 12th, 2014 at 11:57pm
Murat,

I don't add any weight to my kylies but some makers do as far as I have seen.  I think that's a departure from the experimental archaeology, and I don't think they need it. 

Proper throwing technique should incorporate both full wrist snap and full throwing power.  I can use an extended grip on kylies up to 12 oz, and beyond that a hammer grip is necessary for me.  The Hammer grip imparts more spin than the extended grip, but both are adequate. 

If your kylie only went 30 meters and then it collapsed, then it either has significantly too much drag from the tuning or either the airfoil (looks very thick), tuning, or shape of the kylie itself is causing an unstable flight, which allowed it to come undone or fall apart mid flight.  That's what it sounds like to me.  It's hard to offer advise since every stick is different and requires different tuning.  Not every historical stick was refined to fly a long ways either.  Some designs were better than others and some were quicker to just make and abuse for close range throws.  The ones used for hunting Emu at 60 meters may not be my first choice to throw at a lizard on a rock. 

Just keep experimenting until you find the magic formula.  You'll probably stumble across it well before you understand it or can replicate it again, so hold onto any good sticks you have and study them.            

I just finished a big Central Desert Kylie which is 73cm long and weighs 400 grams (14oz).  It's fluted as well, which came out beautifully.  It broke one of my wood targets on the fence in two piece when it hit it!  I didn't have time to finish tuning it 100% before it got dark.  Definitely the type of thing I'd feel confident in if I were hunting deer!  A lot of power!!

Ben




Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Sep 27th, 2014 at 3:21am
I established a new record distance straight throw with a kylie yesterday.  120 yards.  There was a slight wind out but it was a side wind and I think it was hurting me more than anything else, pushing the sticks over to the right.  Most of my throws with this stick were over 110 yards with second place being 117 yards and several at 114 yards.  Target accurate range is at least 80 yards if not more with this stick before it starts to rise above my mark a bit.    

The kylie used is 8.5oz.  I believe if I had a 12-16oz stick tuned equally well, then it would extend the range another 10 yards 20 yards or more due to extra momentum.  I'm experimenting in the smaller sizes and making only a few sticks in the full weight I prefer. 

I already have plans to beat this distance by other methods as well.  I've been learning a lot doing systematic experiments.  I have further experiments to do still. 

These kylies are naturally weighted and work great, but  I'm going to reconsider my opinion expressed above and experiment with adding weights to different parts of the stick and see if that helps distance extend further by delaying the pitch of the instrument past the 80 yards mentioned above.  Of course this is a departure from the experimental archaelogy I love so much. 

I do believe it will extend range some, as it does in boomerangs.  But it is a form of cheating from the standpoint of raw primitive technology.  That said, if I can get a 1 pound stick to fly in a straight line for 150 yards with enough energy to break the legs of a deer, then I'll be pretty happy about it, weighted wing tips or not.

My ultimate goal is to be able to do this using primitive tools, with natural bent oak or scrub oak branches, carved to shape.  I would not weight those.   

Ben 
 

 


Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Oxnate on Sep 27th, 2014 at 10:37am

Whipartist wrote on Sep 27th, 2014 at 3:21am:
I established a new record distance straight throw with a kylie yesterday.  120 yards.  There was a slight wind out but it was a side wind and I think it was hurting me more than anything else, pushing the sticks over to the right.  Most of my throws with this stick were over 110 yards with second place being 117 yards and several at 114 yards.  Target accurate range is at least 80 yards if not more with this stick before it starts to rise above my mark a bit.    


I had to check to be sure, but unfortunately, Guinness (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/) has no records for furthest Kylie throw.  And only 2 for returning boomerangs.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Whipartist on Sep 27th, 2014 at 10:52pm
Oxnate,

200 meters is stated in the literature as higher end straight flight range for a traditional kylie.  Not all had this range, nor was it always an advantage.  Kylies specialized for hunting need perfectly flat straight flights, accuracy, weight, and stability. 

David Schummy holds the distance record on object thrown by human hand without mechanical aid, and that is with what looks like a hybrid between a tiny kylie and an MTA boomerang.  That's 427.2 meters.  It flies way up in the sky and doesn't come back down for a long time.  Most kylies are thrown to fly a level path from thrower to target rather than being thrown up into the sky like a boomerang.  He was going for distance and is using a specialized instrument which would be worthless for hunting something bigger than a dove.

I want to get maximum distance out of sticks that weigh about a pound give or take, and so I doubt I'll reach near 200 yards, but I will give it a try.  I'm more than half way there now.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ5dW5pHPYk

Ben

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Sep 19th, 2015 at 8:22am
Hello ladies and gents (and especially Ben),

I keep making throwing sticks, and occassionally I made a few returning boomerangs too(the latter I found much easier, correct me if I'm wrong).

I am experimenting with "new" designs and try to reach longer distances with flatter and more stable flights. I successfully made a snake-shaped TS, like that I have seen in old Egyptian papyri, as well as tomb paintings (such a TS had also been excavated from King Tutankhamn's tomb) and now working on a bat-shaped one, which is the largest I've ever made. The first throws showed more lift than needed, despite the high total mass. With the snake-TS I was able to reach 67-68 m (73-74 yards) and almost perfect flight. It  travels perfectly straight 40-45 m far, just 20 cm above the ground. I am going to share pics, or better videos soon. Just a question now: During the initial flight tests the TSs usually broke because they do not land paralel but vertically onto their tips. I glued them successfully with two-component epoxy glues and sometimes reinforces with tapes. Afterwards they served well, and even if they broke, it was on another spot. Do you know whether any other glue will work that good? How about white carpenter's glue, for example? Thanks for your replies. Murat

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Sep 19th, 2015 at 6:42pm
I do not have a clue about which glues are best. 

Have you thought about putting a strip of wide, cloth backed tape over both sides of the TS?

I would love to see some pictures of the snake style throwing stick.  Especially the cross section.

I have a piece of caribou antler that has the correct curve, I split it lengthwise, each piece weighs about 100g and can easily be thrown for 50+m.  My longest throw is right at 68m, as best as I could measure it.


Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by ela_gozlu_avci on Sep 23rd, 2015 at 3:58am
A TS made of caribou antler! Wow! Exceptional I'm sure you know that the oldest TS was excavated from a cave in Poland, is dated to 20.000 BP, and made of mammoth ivory. Almost every material can be used for making servicable TSs, I guess. As a part of the continuing research about Yenikapı prehistoric TS, I completed three copies (using 3-D computer modelling) from three different materials (and of course three different specific weight). A detailed experimentation will give a clue about the relationship of wing surface and the total mass. About the glue: Yes, I used tapes to reinforce the glued pieces on my snake-shaped stick (glued with epoxy). It Works fine so far. The bat-shaped stick was repaired with carpenter's glue and failed at the first throw, re-glued with cyanoacrylate, but not thrown yet. I know that epoxy works well, so it made sense to me to try another glue. I'll let you know about the results and will make a video to Show the flight characteristics of snake- and bat- TSs. Here I attach a video of a returning boomerang I made and decorated. There is a pic of the bat-TS as well. Hope you'll enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsL5mHabFH0

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by manu3259 on Sep 24th, 2015 at 2:44pm
I would enjoy to see your new throwing sticks, Murat.I make too returning boomerangs and  I have too breakings sometimes, I usually don't repair them because if my boomerangs break it's because they have weak points.
But about glues, I think epoxy is the best choice, but you need to ad a layer of clothing, and when it's dry sand it, and it will be strong.
I hope you can understand, my english is bad.  ;D 

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by Bill Skinner on Sep 24th, 2015 at 8:47pm
I love this forum.

We have guys from Turkey, the US and France talking about making throwing sticks and boomerangs.

What is interesting about the piece of antler was that it was just the main beam, the rest had been cut off to make tools for flint knapping or into jewelry.  It had the perfect natural curve, all I had to do was split it length wise. 

That's a neat three bladed boomerang.  The first one you made just worked perfectly?  That is when skill and a little luck came together perfectly.

Title: Re: WOW!!! Rabbit sticks are no joke!
Post by walter on Sep 26th, 2015 at 7:13pm
Nice! You will make batman envious :)

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