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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage ?
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Message started by curious_aardvark on Sep 1st, 2012 at 7:29am

Title: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage ?
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 1st, 2012 at 7:29am
I know round here we tend to assume that slings are a very old weapon. Something that goes back into prehistory.

But is there any evidence of this ?
For one reason or another I've been thinking about this recently.
As far as I know, there are no depictions of slings or sling usage in cave paintings.
Does anyone know different ?

A sling, rather than being a simple and easily made device is actually a very complex method of throwing stones. I'm thinking it's not as old as we like to believe.

We do know that spears and spear throwers are as old as the oldest cave paintings.
And that they were, and are, a very effective projectile weapon.

There was no incentive for ancient man to even look for something else.
 
We do know that there are slinger depictions on pretty old greek pottery, but is there anythig older.

So when and what is the oldest recorded evidence of sling usage ?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Dan on Sep 1st, 2012 at 8:10am
 It sounds like we are looking for slings used in the same age as atlatl. So if slings were found in the same picture/painting, it would be evident of concurrent use.

Slings are simple enough, it's the ussage that's the hard part. However a lot of the ancient stone points and such are extremely intraquet so you could probably assume most crafts/tools/weapons would be the same way.

I think the 'ancient' assumption comes from the fact that slings sling rocks, and every commercial caveman is notourious for throwing big rocks and sticks.

I think realistically, the oldest I can think of is Egyptian slings, that's pretty old.

I'll check the Concordance for the Bible to see if there's any use of slings during Abrahams time.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Sep 1st, 2012 at 8:28am

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1157793925/2#2

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 1st, 2012 at 11:32am
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1328303355/0 here it is C_A  :)
The antiquity of the sling.

In short: the most ancient evidence of slinging here in Italy are Neolithic bullets dating 4500-4000 years b.C.
A historian wrote there're evidences of slinging dating back to 80'000 years bp.
I tried to contact him but he won't reply so I'm cautious about it.
But there're many more info on the topic above!

David, thanks for that link!
I managed to solve that long-standing question about that image (what Vikings, they were much more cool Picenian ships!  :D )
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 6:52am
so lovelock cave goes back around 2580 BC. Not 40,000 as kid said in the other thread.
And not only a sling - but duck decoys as well.


Unequivacally a sling image, found at catal hyuk - 7500 BCE to 5700 BCE (what's the E stand for ?)

So anyone got any actual evidence later than 7500 - which is around 9500 ago ?

See I don't think they did have slings 40,000 years ago. Spears, atlatls - definitely.
Those are depicted regularly.
If slings were in common usage there would be stone caches and paintings.  

And while the actual making of a sling is simple - learning how to use one is a very complicated process.
The first person to throw a stone with a sling would think: 'where'd it go ? - damn I'm hungry where'd I put my atlatl.'

Slinging is not a natural thing to do.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by bigkahuna on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 7:38am
BCE=Before Christian Era. ;)

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 7:52am
You're right C_A about the lack of evidences of slinging in cave paintings, but I have some evidences of strange decorations made of dots.
I have to find them because it's a bit hard to describe them.
Basically there are paintings of animals (almost every kind, from wolves to elephants) on which the caveman engraved a lot of dots.
Some wrote these are sling bullets, some wrote it's a primitive way of counting kills, but I'm prone to think these depicts wounds made by spears, javelins, or else.
Sorry for the bad English, had a looooooong night this Saturday  :P
Will post pictures of these paintings as soon as possible.
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 12:15pm
lol - what idiot added the E ?
BC means the same thing :-)

I'm just trying to track down when and who originated the sling. And I'll be surprised if we'll find any evidence much older than catal hyuk.
Hunting was too important for prehistoric man to waste so long learning a weapon when the spear was handy.
Thinking maybe it actually originated with shepherds. As looked at logically this make a lot more sense than it developing as a weapon of war. And it would account for slings appearing in all herding societies.

Anyone got any idea when slings first appeared in egyptian records, pictograms, grave goods etc ?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Pikaru on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 12:47pm
What about the slinging book guys. Isn't there a sling history section?

Before Christ vs Before Christian Era.

BCE sounds like more political correctness

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 12:53pm
Well one could also say

BC - BUSA (Before Columbus - Before the United States of America)  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Adding that "E" is simply ridiculous, in my opinion  :)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 1:11pm
BCE-Before Common Era
CE- Common Era, since it's used by non-Christians too.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Pikaru on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 2:22pm
What era is considered "common"?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 2:52pm
why, that from year AD 1 = CE 1 (again, non-Christians should not have to write "in the year of our Lord").

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 2:56pm
well as far as the slingers guide goes. If nobody's writing a history section already - I will be.

Just one of the reasons I'd like to try and pin down exactly (well give and take a millenia) how old the sling is.

I'm pretty sure I'm right about it originating with shepherds - just about everything about the sling fits that scenario better than any other.

But it would be nice to work out where and when the first shepherd slung the first stone (probably impossible, but still It wuld be nice to know).

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 3:11pm
Just the pure power of it makes it an excellent intimidation weapon against predators trying on the flock.A whirring stone,doesn't have to hit to discourage predators.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 3:51pm
I was thinking more along the lines of people with a lot of time to spend on both making and learning to use slings. As well as the many uses shepherds make of slings.
Plus before slings they'd have thrown stones as a matter of course.
So a way to throw further would have been something a shepherd would have sought.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Dan on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 6:58pm
So, you are deducting that slings would have been more likely used and sought out at the beginging of the Aggricultural era rather than the Hunter/Gatherer era.

I agree with the whole sheperding thing.

There won't really be an entire chapter on sling history since there really isn't a whole lot to tell. However, there will be some mention to confirmed (Middle eastern, roman, aztec, balaeric, etc.) sling use in historic times, as is appropriate IMO.

The Earliest mention of slings in the Bible is the Benjamites and that took place around 1290 BC.
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-date-chronology-of-judges.htm

Or about 3300 years ago for confirmed Isrealite sling battle use. Being that they were very good slingers, I imagine they hadn't just picked it up recently and had been training since they could, so you can count on it going back at least a few generations. In other words, it's probably been in shepearding almost as long as sheep have.

I belive the Egyptian account does go back a bit further than that but your sheperding theory sounds pretty sound. And I'd be willing to have it in The Guide.

The 'Cave man slings' might be one of those common historical sling misconceptions much like David being a little boy. It happens. I'm glad we could kinda set the record straight on this one.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 5:44am
The sling made it across to North America and across the pacific islands which is a migratory journey that began waaaay before agriculture. I have no doubt that the sling and atlatl were invented by early modern humans in Africa and went with us on the migration out of Africa into Europe/Asia and beyond.

This is a selection of probable projectile points in Africa over  60,000 years old, before the migration out. The article calls this evidence for the bow and arrow, but I call BS on this. The spearthrower was the technology that went with migrating humans to Australia and America, and was used in Europe as recently as 15,000 years ago, the bow only appears later.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11086110

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:16am
Hallo David,
while I've found that article pretty interesting, I'd like to warn you about this sentence:

Quote:
The discovery pushes back the development of "bow and arrow technology" by at least 20,000 years

I'd be very cautious writing something like this, because these points doesn't have a suitable shape for being arrowheads (judging by that only picture), and two of the at least looks like scratchers to me.
The fact that bone and blood have been found there is not a valuable evidence, because they may have been used for scratching (exactly) bones or leather. The same for the glue evidence, for they may have had a handle.
Again, an interesting article, by the way  :)
Unfortunately it does not talk about slinging  :(
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:53am
We cannot place the sling in pre-migration Africa yet, but there are these possible projectile points. If these are evidence for the spearthrower then the principle of arm-extending throwing tools is established and would strengthen the case for the sling if, for example, a cache of rounded weight matched stones were to be found from that period.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:59am
Oh, yea, I agree then, thanks for the explanation  :)
As I wrote, I already tried to contact an archaeologist who wrote an article saying that there're evidences of slinging dating 80'000 years bp but he never replied  :(
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 7:44am

David Morningstar wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:53am:
We cannot place the sling in pre-migration Africa yet, but there are these possible projectile points. If these are evidence for the spearthrower then the principle of arm-extending throwing tools is established and would strengthen the case for the sling if, for example, a cache of rounded weight matched stones were to be found from that period.


That would help. But there is no incentive for the hunter gatherer to have developed sling use.
Weapon development is pretty clear.
Blunt object to hit things with.
sharp object to stab things with
long sharp object to throw at things.
better ways to throw the long sharp object.
firearms

There is just no incentive for hunter gatherers to develop slings. And as far as I can find, bugger all evidence that they even considered it.

Whereas once you get people guarding flocks all day, cord making would have been a natural pastime. Some way of herding the animals and deterring predators would have been at the front of their desires.
Slings and shepherds go together perfectly. They have the materials, incentive and most importantly - the time to spend getting proficient with a sling. Time no hunter gatherer would have spent when he had  a perfectly functional spear thrower.

One of the classic examples of this are the australian aborigenes. Always hunter gatherers - never took up herding. never developed the sling.
One of the few landmasses on the planet where the sling was not developed. And the only one where no aspect of herding was done before western society landed there.

Counter to that I suppose would be the polynesians. Who did develop slings without a herding culture, but probably as a side effect of fishing techniques. Plus they were so war oriented that they would have spent the time developing obscure weapon usage.  And could well have taken the sling idea from raids on herding societies.  

The more you consider the anthropological, physical and practical aspects of the sling. The more likely it becomes that slings are just not as old a weapon as we've generally believed.
And were most probably never used to hunt big game.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Dan on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 7:48am

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 6:59am:
Oh, yea, I agree then, thanks for the explanation  :)
As I wrote, I already tried to contact an archaeologist who wrote an article saying that there're evidences of slinging dating 80'000 years bp but he never replied  :(
Greetings,
Mauro.


See, that's a very long period of uncomfirmed time compared to the Israelite or Egyptian account.

I myself am pretty curious at how he arrived at that number.

I think that war like societies devoloped the sling seperately from the wheperding thing (Like in NA, and the pacific Islands). How that happened, I'm not to sure. Again without written record, it's pretty tough to judge these things.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 10:03am
I disagree with C_A. The Native North Americans didn't herd anything but the sling is found from Alaska to Tenochtitlan.

From our article http://slinging.org/index.php?page=the-chumash-sling---paul-campbell

"The Pomo made a sling for hunting or war... Sling throwers stood a little to the rear of the front battle line. Boys brought them stones in baskets. For geese, hunters hurled a round stone 1-1/2 to 2 inches in diameter. But for ducks or mud hens balls of clay 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 inches in diameter were used. "

The Pomo were not herders or farmers: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomo_people#_

"Traditionally they relied upon fishing, hunting and gathering for their food."


Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Fundibularius on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:52pm
The possibility of the sling originating in the Paleolithic Era and its hypothetic use by Neanderthals has been discussed by Hondero in his "History of the Sling" which should be a standard read for everyone interested in slinging.

By whatever reason, I only have access to the original Spanish version at the moment http://perso.wanadoo.es/hondero/PALEOLITICOe.pdf As for the English translation, there seems to be only the introduction left http://www.slinging.org/wiki/index.php?title=INTRODUCTION._THE_SLING

What's happened? Or is it me?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by benkolmer on Sep 7th, 2012 at 9:15am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 2:56pm:
well as far as the slingers guide goes. If nobody's writing a history section already - I will be.  


C_A, I wrote the section on sling use, both past and present. While no specific dates were given, I did say that the sling is mankind's second oldest projectile weapon system, preceded only by the atlatl.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 7th, 2012 at 12:02pm
Well i'd change that to read third oldest. I'd say it's pretty definite that bows and arrows - which were used by hunter gatherers, most likely predate the sling by quite some time.

I believe there are cave paintings depicting bows while there are none depicting slings.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 7th, 2012 at 2:14pm
Forgive me, as I've written a couple of articles for archaeological journals (well, three, two published and one being printed right now) I learned to avoid accurate affirmations like "the sling is the second (or the third) most ancient ranged weapon", if there're not enough evidences.
This to avoid the risk of spreading inaccurate information, and to leave room for future corrections.
Just my two cents  :)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Masiakasaurus on Sep 7th, 2012 at 11:06pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 2nd, 2012 at 12:15pm:
lol - what idiot added the E ?
BC means the same thing :-)  

I have a rant about this. :) BCE was an attempt to dechristianize anthropology by removing references to Christ. It ends up being just as ethnocentric as BC but more pretentious because it's based on the same date for the same reason. Before Present is a better alternative. Rant over.

IMHO, 200,000 years ago is the absolute oldest slings could be since that's roughly when modern man showed up and archaic humans don't show enough improvement in their knapping for me to believe they improved much technologically in other areas. (Assuming Denisova man and Neanderthal man had similar tool use.) My money is on a single origin after the first migrations to Australia (49,000 BC), but before humans reached North America (14,500–11,000 BC). 15,000 BC is very believable. Copying someone else's idea is easy, thinking for yourself is really hard so I have a hard time believing in multiple origins.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Dan on Sep 8th, 2012 at 7:51am
The difficult thing about history is withour real observation, nothing can be scientifically proven.

I'm going to stick with the Bible and put this out there, The Bow is mentioned in Genesis 20 with Ishmale becoming an archer. That's a little more than 800 years before David.

 I'm just going to go with they came out pretty close to each other, and they have both been along for a long time, there's really no way to prove any weapon preceded the other. This is all just speculation. Both Archery and Slings can be found pretty universally, I'd estimate that various people groups needed to eat and made do with what they had.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by benkolmer on Sep 8th, 2012 at 3:53pm
Alright Dan, let's just say that the sling is one of mankind's oldest projectile weapons and leave it at that.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 8th, 2012 at 6:03pm

Dan wrote on Sep 8th, 2012 at 7:51am:
The difficult thing about history is withour real observation, nothing can be scientifically proven.

I'm going to stick with the Bible and put this out there, The Bow is mentioned in Genesis 20 with Ishmale becoming an archer. That's a little more than 800 years before David.


Yes, history is knowledge through documents and traces (and that includes archaeology). The Bible, in that respect, is a historical document-- a bunch of historical narratives and sacred texts, probably put together (from older texts) around the fifth century BC. For historical purposes, there is no reason "to stick to the Bible" rather than older, direct historical documents (Egyptian and Mesopotamian ); or indeed archaeology, which is a scientific discipline.

I don't know if there are mentions of the sling in written documents of say 2500 BC or before. At any rate, the invention of the sling takes us way beyond written documents-- be it e.g. 40,000 years before present, or (as in C-A's striking hypothesis) to some more resent date (e.g. Neolithic ?)

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 10th, 2012 at 8:55am
well I'm nailing my flag to whenever man settle down and became a herder rather than purely a hunter.
Once you think about it - it just makes sense.


Quote:
Copying someone else's idea is easy, thinking for yourself is really hard so I have a hard time believing in multiple origins.

Well the evidence is pretty strong that people doing the same job in different places will often come up with the same ways of doing things.
And all shepherds need a cheap and reliable way of both herding their animals and fending off predators. They also all would have time on their hands that would have been - at least partly occupied in making cordage and dealing with leather and wool and other materials from the animals.
Sling making is incredibly simple - it has to be I can do it  ;)
So slings developing at multiple points is perfectly logical.

What sets the sling apart from a spear or bow is the length of time it takes for a sling to be of any use to the slinger. And that's where shepherds again come into their own and why it makes sense to rule hunters out.
Need is the main catalyst for innovation. Hunters already had effective easy ways to produce and use weapons.

But once you have a man who's job is to look after animals rather than hunt them. Spears are of little use. You can't direct a herd at distance with a bow and arrow. So at that point in human history a new weapon was required. Cordage and stones were readily available and shepherds would have naturally been using thrown stones anyway.  

Shepherds had the time, materials and need for sling usage.

Nobody else had all three.
All shepherds shared the same needs and skill sets and access to materials.
So multiple points of sling origin make perfect sense. Plus slings were used in cultures on different continents - every one except australia, where herding never took hold.

You can also make almost the same case for arable farming.
Farmers would need an effective way to protect crops, scare birds away, deter larger animals etc.
Slings fit the bill a lot better than bows and spears.  

So what's the oldest evidence of animal shepherding and farming ?
I'd think older than 15,000 years.

I suspect if you find the really early herding cultures, you'll also find the early evidence of sling usage.
Once they can produce their own meat, more static societies develop and people start making pots and decorating things for the longer term and that's where I reckon, you're likely to have the earliest images of slingers.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 10th, 2012 at 2:08pm
Your point of view is really interesting C_A and made me think about how much the context in which a culture develops itself affect the birth and use of a certain weapon (or tool) more than another.
I mean, you should use a sling better than a javelin in a very dense bush (I'm not saying that it's true, it's just an example), while you should prefer javelins over slings on a steppe area.
You may also need a sling just because the game you're hunting is not big enough for the javelin; or you usually hunt something that does not need a javelin to be killed (for example I think that shooting a stone - or an arrow - in a flock of birds is better that throwing a javelin into it).

Some practical examples of what I mean comes from the archaeological findings of Kalambo Falls (wooden points, maces and hunting tools) and Clacton on Sea (wooden spear head).
These findings dates from 600'000 to 200'000 years bp and show the possible use of traps and spears in hunting.
The period in which these findings are placed is the Pleistocene, and for what concerns the spear of Clacton on Sea, it may have been used in a glacial context (Mindel glaciation), which means the context was steppe-like.

So inspired by your affirmation I formulate this question: how much should the context have affected the invention and adoption of the sling in ancient times?
What do you think?
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Dan on Sep 10th, 2012 at 2:21pm

benkolmer wrote on Sep 8th, 2012 at 3:53pm:
Alright Dan, let's just say that the sling is one of mankind's oldest projectile weapons and leave it at that.



I think we can all agree on that. It's definitely been around for awhile and I'm sure it came in very handy back in the day.

If the sling use goes beyond written documents, it's very speculative as to it's origen, and your estimates could be dramatically differerent. I'd rather not be contradictory in The Guide. I see no benefit in reading about theoretical sling useage in The Guide. Perhaps it was also used by aliens from differnt universes? There is certanately no shortage of rocks in outer space, and it's so simple, perhaps nomadic primitive alien sheperds used it. But when did they start using slings? We don't have any written recrods of the alien sling useage for many reasons, but hopefully you can see what I'm trying to say here.

It's an unanswerable (worded as is) question.

It's definitely entertaining to discuss on here. But I'd prefer not to publish anything in the guide that we can't confirm without absolute certainty. I don't think new slingers will really mind missing all the Authors bickering about the exact first slinger in The Guide.

When I write, I prefer to write about somthing I know about. I'd prefer if you did the same. There's plenty to say and write about the sling in recent history.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 10th, 2012 at 6:51pm
Actually, it's a perfectly good question: what is the oldest, incontrovertible evidence of sling usage ?

I can think of a representation on a Mycenaean rhyton, which takes us to say 1400 BC. The sling is Tutenkhamun's tomb is roughly the same period.

Mesopotamia: the archaeology takes us a lot earlier, I think-- at least third millenium  BC (so say 2500 BC), but surely there are earlier things (the sling bullets, clay, from some Syrian site ?)

What other archaeological evidence is there ? What does Korfman adduce ? What clear palaeontological evidence is there ? What evidence is there for the statement that the sling might have been used in the palaeolithic period ?

The Cortaillod sling: Neolithic ? No, late Bronze age (so ca. 1000 BC).

In other words: we should have a prize for whoever comes up with the earliest proof of the use of the sling.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 10th, 2012 at 6:55pm
Rereading thread: picture at Çatal Hüyük, makes it 7500 BC. Anything older ?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Fundibularius on Sep 11th, 2012 at 12:09am
The sling in connection with livestock seems obvious and typical, but it also appears in pre-Columbian N.-America and Polynesia where there never were any herding cultures.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Sep 11th, 2012 at 5:42am

I will dig out 'Slingstones of Oceania and America', there are lots of biconical stones, no definite proof they are slingstones but they are unlikely to be anything else, in North America quite some time ago. I doubt I can beat 7500 BC though.

I'm sticking to my hypothesis of pre-migration Africa for atlatl and sling.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 11th, 2012 at 8:09am
Ok so shall we provide an index (yes I've got this mania  8-) ) of the oldest evidences of sling usage?

1 - picture at Catal Hayuk - 7500 b.C.
2 - clay bullets from Villaggio Scaramella, both spherical and biconical (Southern Italy, Masseria La Quercia culture) - 5000 b.C. (1)
3 - clay bullets from Mesopotamia - 2500 b.C.
4 - Tutankhamon's sling and representation on a Mycenean rhyton - 1400 b.C.
5 - Cortalloid sling - 1000 b.C.
6 - Novilara's Stele (if we want to stop before the Roman era)- 650 b.C. (2)

(1) reference: A. M. Radmilli, Guida della preistoria Italiana, Sansoni, Florence 1975.
(2) references: V.A., Eroi e regine, De Luca, Rome 2001; V.A., Potere e splendore, "L'Erma" di Bretschneider, Turin 2008.

I remember a guy posting pictures of stone bullets he and his equipe found while digging a Bronze Age village in Northern France; hopefully we will find that post again.
Any more incontrovertible information to help our writers?
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 12th, 2012 at 8:07am

David Morningstar wrote on Sep 11th, 2012 at 5:42am:
I will dig out 'Slingstones of Oceania and America', there are lots of biconical stones, no definite proof they are slingstones but they are unlikely to be anything else, in North America quite some time ago. I doubt I can beat 7500 BC though.

I'm sticking to my hypothesis of pre-migration Africa for atlatl and sling.


Atlatl yes - but not slings. If that were the case there would a lot more evidence, there would certainly be cave paintings.

And hunters with atlatls had no need of slings and minimal need for cordage.
Plus if that were the case then the australian aborigenes - one of the oldest offshoots of aryan man, would have had slingshot knowlege - and prior to western contact, they did not.

I tell you it all fits too perfectly to just be something I've made up :-)

Cheers for the index mauro  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
That's compact enough to just drop into the guide.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Morphy on Sep 15th, 2012 at 7:23pm
Were it not for the fact that the sling developed in non-shepherding cultures I would have to agree with you C_A.  It does make sense... for what it's worth.  But think there were other really good reasons for developing the sling.  Anyone whose ever built archery equipment by hand with a knife would have a real incentive to find an alternative to using the bow for small game animals anywhere where arrows could easily break or get lost. Each arrow represents a large investment of time and tedious work.  The sling makes sense in those situations too. Most people can't throw stones hard or fast enough to make throwing stones by hand a reasonable alternative out to hunting distances.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 16th, 2012 at 6:55am
so which non-agrarian cultures DEVELOPED slings.
And bear in mind that once someone has seen a sling in action - ONCE. it's so much easier to understand the potential and make the effort to create your own.

ie: were a warrior/hunter to steal a shepherds sheep and be attacked by a sling. He'd probably start seriously thinking about trying it out.

so there would need to be evidence that the sling developed before any interaction with cultures that already had slings.

And that's going to be very tough I think as non-agrarian cultures tend to leave pretty small documentary footprints in history.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Bill Skinner on Sep 16th, 2012 at 1:33pm
A sling and bipointed stones from Lovelock Cave, NV, western US.  Dates to 3,200YA.  Not a herding culture and not much waterfowl in the area, either.  It probably predates the bow and arrow in that area, the bow was working its way south from the Artic Circle and it may have been in the area, but it really doesn't start to show up until around 2,500YA.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Morphy on Sep 17th, 2012 at 3:04pm
Devolped... That's a good question... But you could make a fairly strong argument that we could never truly pin point where something was developed since, as you mentioned, once you see it once it's easy to copy.  Same with any weapon for that matter.  Even though we know the bow was used concurrently by many cultures, we can never say for sure who developed it first, or for that matter, who developed it without the aid of seeing it somewhere else first.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 17th, 2012 at 3:27pm
Add the sling bullets (clay) at Hamoukar. About 3500 BC.

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/07/070116.hamoukar.shtml

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Sep 22nd, 2012 at 1:06pm
Bill Skinner's and Thearos's evidences added  :)

1 - picture at Catal Hayuk - 7500 b.C.
2 - clay bullets from Villaggio Scaramella, both spherical and biconical (Southern Italy, Masseria La Quercia culture) - 5000 b.C. (1)
3 - clay bullets from Hamoukar - 3500 b.C.
4 - clay bullets from Mesopotamia - 2500 b.C.
5 - Tutankhamon's sling and representation on a Mycenean rhyton - 1400 b.C.
6 - sling and biconical bullets from Lovelock Cave - 1200 b.C.
7 - Cortalloid sling - 1000 b.C.
8 - Novilara's stele (if we want to stop before the Roman era)- 650 b.C. (2)

(1) reference: A. M. Radmilli, Guida della preistoria Italiana, Sansoni, Florence 1975.
(2) references: V.A., Eroi e regine, De Luca, Rome 2001; V.A., Potere e splendore, "L'Erma" di Bretschneider, Turin 2008.

Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by JDills39 on Sep 25th, 2012 at 5:30pm
This is my favourite representation of slingers, orthostat relief from Sennacherib's palace at Nineveh, depicting the battle of Lachish in 701 B.C.E.: http://www.artres.com/C.aspx?VP3=ViewBox_VPage&VBID=2UN365GDH2VQ&IT=ZoomImageTemplate01_VForm&IID=2UNTWAGI58X4&PN=18&CT=Search&SF=0

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Sep 28th, 2012 at 1:57am
Many have seen this video,but regarding the topic,it has a very interesting point.
Not well documented,but it could be found at where were these mammoth killing sites and how old are they dated,but i guess they're much older than the Catal Huyuk clay ammo.
At 2:40 it has a picture,and is mentioning 5cm "cooking stones"
Frickin archeologist probably thought they're too big to be sling stones and they used slingshots with rubber band and pebbles. JK ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaIT9HcnVqg&feature=related
It's written on the pic:Archeology Laboratory Center for Western studies,Augustana collage,Dr.Adrien Hannus.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 28th, 2012 at 4:45am
How about in e.g. pre-Columbian America ? What's the evidence ?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 28th, 2012 at 5:05am
Some more Neolithic evidence:

-Sesklo, Thessaly (Greece)-- clay sling bullets. Say ca. 6000 BC. (but in fact quite widespread on Neolithic sites). Dated by stratigraphy and carbon dating.

Source: Childe, V. G. 1951. "The Significance of the Sling for Greek Prehistory," in Studies Presented to David Moore Robinson on His Seventieth Birth day 1-5

-Neolithic near-east: "ammo dumps" of sling bullets (clay). Umm Dabaghiyah and at Tel Sabi Abyad
Source: Kirkbride, D. 1982. "Umm Dabaghi yah," in Fifty Years of Mesopotamian Discovery: The Work of the British School of Archaeology in Iraq, 1932 1982; Akkermans, P. M. M. G. 1993. Villages in the Steppe: Later Neolithic Settle ment and Subsistence in the Balikh Valley, Northern Syria, Ann Arbor.

-Similar sites in Balkans, Neolithic.
Source:  J. Chapman lists, in his article in J., and A. F. Harding, eds. 1999. Ancient Warfare: Archaeological perspectives (1999).


-- all these references (which I haven't checked) from C. Runnels et al, "Warfare in Neolithic Thessaly", Hesperia 2009.

-- so: good, widespread archaeological evidence for sling usage in the Neolithic period (say 7000-4000 BC) in the Old World, from the Balksns to Syria, in the form of specialized biconical bullets, made of sunbaked, heavy clay.

What is the correct hypothesis here ? That the sling is developed in the Neolithic period, with clay bullets produced soon after the invention of the sling, or that the sling bullets are a refinement invented for a much older weapons, used in the Palaeolithic already ?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 29th, 2012 at 8:42am

Quote:
or that the sling bullets are a refinement invented for a much older weapons, used in the Palaeolithic already ?


Hmm, any idea what ? Can't think of any other way of throwing a glande hard enough for the shape to be of relevance that could be simpler or older than a sling.

I would have thought any other method of throwing would be biased towards spherical ammunition.  

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Bill Skinner on Sep 29th, 2012 at 1:35pm
Thearos:  I don't think it can be proven unless an actual sling is recovered in context.  Even if stones were found embedded in the skull of a woolly mammoth, they're not be proof, it may be strongly suspected that it would take a sling to do that damage but that still would only be a theory.  It could also have happened when the mammoth fell over.  I thought that was an interesting video but it is all conjecture, it's possible but it has no hard evidence supporting or disproving it.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Sep 29th, 2012 at 2:03pm
Well,if in multiple mammoth kill sites they find such stone,which i don't know,but i guess there could be..than it might suggest that they're probably sling stones. For boiling mammoth on site,they would have used much bigger stones,i SUPPOSE. It may not be a hard evidence,for every day people ,but a slinger would know if those round 5cm diam. stones are sling stones or not ;)

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Sep 29th, 2012 at 3:42pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Sep 29th, 2012 at 8:42am:

Quote:
or that the sling bullets are a refinement invented for a much older weapons, used in the Palaeolithic already ?


Hmm, any idea what ? Can't think of any other way of throwing a glande hard enough for the shape to be of relevance that could be simpler or older than a sling.

I would have thought any other method of throwing would be biased towards spherical ammunition.  


I wrote unclearly. I meant that the neolithic clay sling bullets obviously show that the sling was used in the Neolithic period (obviously), but also that (also obviously) the sling could have been a lot older (the "older weapon" was what i wrote to say "the sling used much earlier).

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Oct 2nd, 2012 at 2:14pm

From 'Slings and sling stones, the forgotten weapons of Oceania and the Americas' page 98

"Biconical/bipointed ovoid stone and clay artefacts comparable to Pacific island sling stones have been found from southern California north to the Columbia river... they conservatively date to 8000 YA and quite possibly to 13,000 YA at the Mount Hebron and Borax Lake sites"

It goes on to say,

"Generally these artefacts disappear from the archaeological record between 2500 and 3000 YA"

This is about the same time as the bow made its appearance, displacing the atlatl. I hypothesize an atlatl and sling weapon complex using manufactured sling stones, which was replaced by a primarily bow-using complex with the sling relegated to secondary use with natural stones or clay ammo, retained mostly for its cheapness and ease of carry.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Masiakasaurus on Oct 8th, 2012 at 4:23pm
So about 12,800 BC to 7,800 BC for the Americas. Pretty old.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Brett on Oct 10th, 2012 at 1:06pm
How about this question:  What's the earliest evidence of cordage?  Cordage is a prerequisite for a sling.  Therefore slings cannot exist prior to cordage.  Do any of you smart types out there know our first evidence for cordage? Wikipedia says 28,000 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordage)  This would be a "can't be before this" point in time for slings.

I was VERY impressed with all the thought about how herding and slinging naturally fit together.  I think one key value of a sling as a shepherd in a land with predators would be to do "recon by fire" at range - something you can't do with any other weapon system.   Arrows and Atlatls wold get lost, thrown stones don't have the range.   I think I'd tend to lob a few rocks into suspicious looking bushes from time to time just on the off chance I might scare a predator.  Heck, even I'm accurate enough to do that.  The sling allows you a kind of carefree, no-cost interaction with your extended environment that no other weapon affords.  it would, in fact, be more a tool than a weapon in this sense.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Masiakasaurus on Oct 10th, 2012 at 6:26pm
Archaeology and anthropology don't work like that. Our earliest evidence of cordage could be several thousand years after it's invention, but no samples were preserved well enough from the first couple thousand years. There is no definite point in human history that slinging or cordage can't have happened before, despite cordage being a prerequisite for slings.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Oct 11th, 2012 at 1:27am
That's the thing with all that Loooong time things,they auto recycle. Our today's stuff will be easy to find even 100.000 years from now  :P

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Oct 11th, 2012 at 4:55am
Slings can be made very well without cordage. There are plenty of Native American slings with leather pouches and leather thong cords, sewn together with sinew.

Search for 'sling' here: http://anthro.amnh.org/north



Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 11th, 2012 at 7:22am
true - what's the oldest one known ?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Fundibularius on Oct 11th, 2012 at 11:47pm
We might add to the list the depiction of a slinger on the Mycaenean siege rhyton from the 16th cent. BC (http://classics.unc.edu/courses/clar244/MycSgRhyt.jpg) and stored slingstones found, if I am not mistaken, in Troy VII, dating around 1200-1000 BC.

Both are mentioned by Korfmann (http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/troia/st/two/ab/english/ab7eng.html ; would be great if someone could find the whole article, as I have only access to the abstract at the moment).

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Oct 12th, 2012 at 2:53am

David Morningstar wrote on Oct 11th, 2012 at 4:55am:
Slings can be made very well without cordage. There are plenty of Native American slings with leather pouches and leather thong cords, sewn together with sinew.

Search for 'sling' here: http://anthro.amnh.org/north

Hmm true. The thin roots of the pine tree could also probably be made into a sling.I bet there are other plants and stuff (bark strips) that are almost really cordage.Not the best but readily available.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Oct 13th, 2012 at 12:51pm
What is the earliest evidence for use of the atlatl ? Alina ?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Oct 13th, 2012 at 2:49pm
To the best of my knowledge, Magdalenian III and IV are the oldest spearthrower artefacts, but one is depicted in Lascaux and so is rather older. Small projectile points go back to the Solutrean and Gravettian, and there are small stone points from Africa dated 60,000YA.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 6:40am
If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl, the oldest evidences are 4 wooden javelins discovered in Schoningen, Germany and dating to 400'000 b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Teg on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 7:59am

Fundibularius wrote on Oct 11th, 2012 at 11:47pm:
Both are mentioned by Korfmann (http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/troia/st/two/ab/english/ab7eng.html ; would be great if someone could find the whole article, as I have only access to the abstract at the moment).


You can easily buy this article. It's a part of this journal:

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(Used Price:  EUR 2,95, new price: EUR 28 so it's affordable.)

Follow this link if you prefer libraries (only german and austrian libraries):

http://dispatch.opac.d-nb.de/DB=1.1/SET=1/TTL=1/PRS=HOL/SHW?HOLDINGS_YEAR=&HOLDINGS_VOLUME=&FRST=1#00901585X

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:45am

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 6:40am:
If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl, the oldest evidences are 4 wooden javelins discovered in Schoningen, Germany and dating to 400'000 b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.


Schoningen is unrelated to the atlatl, and also unrelated to slinging.  The closest relationship you can find is that some modern people like to throw schoningen spears with an amentum, but this is purely speculative and not based on any extant archaeological evidence.  In fact, there is much debate over where they were actually thrown spears or not.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:49am

Thearos wrote on Oct 13th, 2012 at 12:51pm:
What is the earliest evidence for use of the atlatl ? Alina ?


Oldest definitive evidence for the use of the atlatl is the Magdalenian.  However, the Solutrian and Gravettian both offer circumstantial evidence for the use of the atlatl, based on fracture patterns and other features.  There is also a new type of study being done that can assess impact fractures in lithic tools and determine the velocity at which the impact occurred. This might prove useful for determining whether something was propelled by an atlatl or bow, or if it was merely hand-cast.  I'm also working on a paper that may be able to relate the development of atlatls to the exploitation of marine mammals.  If I can get the evidence I need, it will give us more circumstantial evidence for the presence of atlatls based on zooarchaeology.  I also have a pet theory that needs a lot of work that Neanderthals were using atlatls about 30,000BP.  It's so far from being provable right now it's not funny, but there is more circumstantial evidence available than most people know.  Potential projectile points go back much farther than that.  There are some suggestions that points found in Ethiopia from more than 100,000BP may be projectile points.  I know a well-respected professor who believes modern humans (h. sapiens) have had complex projectile weapons for as long as they have existed.

Omo kibish point, Ethiopia, 104,000BP:


Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:59am
Oh, and while I'm on a posting spree, let me add my two cents in here.  I think slings were primarily developed, not for shepherds guarding flocks, but as weapons for warfare.  I think slings coincide with warfare and that they have little use in hunting contexts.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:59am

wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:45am:

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 6:40am:
If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl, the oldest evidences are 4 wooden javelins discovered in Schoningen, Germany and dating to 400'000 b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.


Schoningen is unrelated to the atlatl, and also unrelated to slinging.  The closest relationship you can find is that some modern people like to throw schoningen spears with an amentum, but this is purely speculative and not based on any extant archaeological evidence.  In fact, there is much debate over where they were actually thrown spears or not.


That's why I wrote "If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl"  :)
Incorrect grammar?!?
BTW how are you Alina? I hope everything's ok?!
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 11:11am

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:59am:

wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:45am:

Mauro Fiorentini wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 6:40am:
If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl, the oldest evidences are 4 wooden javelins discovered in Schoningen, Germany and dating to 400'000 b.C.
Greetings,
Mauro.


Schoningen is unrelated to the atlatl, and also unrelated to slinging.  The closest relationship you can find is that some modern people like to throw schoningen spears with an amentum, but this is purely speculative and not based on any extant archaeological evidence.  In fact, there is much debate over where they were actually thrown spears or not.


That's why I wrote "If we relate throwing spears to the atlatl"  :)
Incorrect grammar?!?
BTW how are you Alina? I hope everything's ok?!
Greetings,
Mauro.


Doing well, Mauro!  I hope you're okay too.

I should add, and this isn't directed at you, that I think we're barking up the wrong tree when we compare slings and atlatls.  If you look at cultures with atlatls, slings are either rarely-used toys, or they're non-existent.  And if you look at cultures with slings, you don't tend to find atlatls.  It's not an either or deal, of course.  Slings were common in Peru, and the estolica, or atlatl, also existed.  Slings were used from time to time amongst the Inuit.  The list of exceptions could go on.  But if you look at these cultures, they have a fundamental focus on one or the other.  Slings are not commonly used weapons in the arctic - not compared to harpoons and throwing boards and bows.  Slings are unheard of in Australia.  Similarly, in Polynesia, there is no evidence for atlatls, despite ample evidence for thrown spears.  And in the Peruvian context, the estolica predominated in the coastal areas of the country, while the sling predominated in the highlands of the Andes.

I think slings and atlatls have just one thing in common - they act as levers which amplify the force of the arm.  However, that's pretty much all they have in common.  The technology needed to make a good slingstone is wildly different from that needed to make a good atlatl dart, and the same goes for the slings and atlatls themselves.  Moreover, the weapons lend themselves better to different ecological niches.  You would use a sling in a dense rainforest, or from a boat trying to hit a sea lion, just as you'll have far better luck in terms of range with a sling than you will with an atlatl in open places.  And, above the tree line, slings will have more ammunition.

So, I propose as an alternative to looking at atlatls for the development of slings, that we look to rocks.  See, people took up throwing sticks pretty early in their development (by 400,000 BP at least), but they also threw rocks.  We don't have archaeological evidence for it, as unmodified rocks leave no human trail behind.  However, there are modified hand-cast throwing rocks on many islands in the Pacific region especially, and these have entered the ethnographic record as such.  This suggests that people began shaping throwing rocks before they developed the sling, and that shaped slingstones flowed naturally from a behavior that was already being practiced.  I think the search for the earliest origins of slings begins with the search for modified throwing rocks.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 12:11pm
I totally agree with you  :)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Bill Skinner on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 8:18pm
That looks like pressure flaking around the base, with some edge retouch that may or may not be pressure flaking.  What's a neolithic point doing in a paleolithic site?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 9:33pm

Bill Skinner wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 8:18pm:
That looks like pressure flaking around the base, with some edge retouch that may or may not be pressure flaking.  What's a neolithic point doing in a paleolithic site?


Paleolithic flakes are often retouched.  Pressure-flaking was used in paleo contexts, especially the solutrean, and most of the famous pressure-flaked north american points are paleo-indian (clovis, etc).  The retouch on this piece could be pressure-flaked, or it could have come from a hammerstone.  I've gotten some tiny flakes off glass with hammerstones taken from pieces of driveway gravel.  The rocks in this region were good quality too, so you'd expect them to flake well.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by timann on Nov 4th, 2012 at 6:28am

wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:49am:

Thearos wrote on Oct 13th, 2012 at 12:51pm:
What is the earliest evidence for use of the atlatl ? Alina ?


Oldest definitive evidence for the use of the atlatl is the Magdalenian.  However, the Solutrian and Gravettian both offer circumstantial evidence for the use of the atlatl, based on fracture patterns and other features.  There is also a new type of study being done that can assess impact fractures in lithic tools and determine the velocity at which the impact occurred. This might prove useful for determining whether something was propelled by an atlatl or bow, or if it was merely hand-cast.  I'm also working on a paper that may be able to relate the development of atlatls to the exploitation of marine mammals.  If I can get the evidence I need, it will give us more circumstantial evidence for the presence of atlatls based on zooarchaeology.  I also have a pet theory that needs a lot of work that Neanderthals were using atlatls about 30,000BP.  It's so far from being provable right now it's not funny, but there is more circumstantial evidence available than most people know.  Potential projectile points go back much farther than that.  There are some suggestions that points found in Ethiopia from more than 100,000BP may be projectile points.  I know a well-respected professor who believes modern humans (h. sapiens) have had complex projectile weapons for as long as they have existed.

Omo kibish point, Ethiopia, 104,000BP:


Hope you can reveal something about your pet theory some time, I`m rather intersted in stuff from those times.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 4th, 2012 at 10:15am

timann wrote on Nov 4th, 2012 at 6:28am:

wrote on Nov 3rd, 2012 at 10:49am:

Thearos wrote on Oct 13th, 2012 at 12:51pm:
What is the earliest evidence for use of the atlatl ? Alina ?


Oldest definitive evidence for the use of the atlatl is the Magdalenian.  However, the Solutrian and Gravettian both offer circumstantial evidence for the use of the atlatl, based on fracture patterns and other features.  There is also a new type of study being done that can assess impact fractures in lithic tools and determine the velocity at which the impact occurred. This might prove useful for determining whether something was propelled by an atlatl or bow, or if it was merely hand-cast.  I'm also working on a paper that may be able to relate the development of atlatls to the exploitation of marine mammals.  If I can get the evidence I need, it will give us more circumstantial evidence for the presence of atlatls based on zooarchaeology.  I also have a pet theory that needs a lot of work that Neanderthals were using atlatls about 30,000BP.  It's so far from being provable right now it's not funny, but there is more circumstantial evidence available than most people know.  Potential projectile points go back much farther than that.  There are some suggestions that points found in Ethiopia from more than 100,000BP may be projectile points.  I know a well-respected professor who believes modern humans (h. sapiens) have had complex projectile weapons for as long as they have existed.

Omo kibish point, Ethiopia, 104,000BP:


Hope you can reveal something about your pet theory some time, I`m rather intersted in stuff from those times.


I can talk about it a little bit.  The problem with it isn't that there isn't circumstantial evidence, but rather for a claim this big, I need much better proof.  I think I have enough proof to write a paper saying that neanderthals using atlatls needs to be considered for the late period of neanderthal habitation in southern Europe, but I can't say more than that without jumping well outside the bounds of established science.

Basically, I've been doing research for a paper on the origins of projectile weapons, and it's a review paper, which means it assesses every other paper out there on the subject.  So, I've been doing a massive amount of reading, and I came across some stuff regarding neanderthals that piqued my curiosity.  First and foremost, there are three papers out now talking about neanderthals in various southern european sites taking bird wings, but not eating the birds (based on butchery).  And the thought is that these neanderthals are collecting the feathers.  The document writers say it's probably for personal ornamentation, but it could just as easily be for making fletching.  In fact, I find fletching to be higher up on my list of possibilities than ornamentation.  I also found two documents from a Russian/Ukrainian context which discuss neanderthal stone points having feather barbules on them, based on tool analysis.  So, either those points were used to kill birds, or to butcher birds.  Either way, that seems to indicate to me a projectile weapon at work, as hand-cast spears have little chance of killing birds.  As far as butchering them, why cut the feathers if not for fletching?  Again, ornamentation is suggested, which works, but I think it underestimates neanderthal cognition.

Then, there's this 10 year old paper on the faunal remains of a wild ass that was found with a levallois (neanderthal-made) point embedded in its vertebra, with an angle that suggests a ballistic trajectory.  As anybody chucking spears knows, they don't follow ballistic trajectories unless they're very specifically balanced, and even then they usually don't (olympic javelins had to actually be redesigned to address this fact).  Atlatl darts, however, do.  So, if the paper authors are right and this is a ballistic trajectory, it strongly suggests use of an atlatl in my mind.

In addition to that, there are a couple of papers looking at impact fractures on neanderthal stone points which suggest that these fractures occurred in a similar way to projectile weapon fractures.  Add to this the research done by a woman in Australia which shows that Australian woomera dart points have a similar TCSA (tip cross-sectional area) to Mousterian levallois points, and you have a door that is very open to the possibility of Neanderthals with atlatls.  Of course, it's not proof by any stretch of the imagination, but it has made me wonder.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Masiakasaurus on Nov 4th, 2012 at 10:58am
That's some really cool evidence you've managed to pull together! I'd be interested to see if there is enough evidence in the next few years to analyze the behavior of H. Floresiensis, H. Rhodesiensis (or whatever his current classification), and H. Denisova this way. My personal opinion (I'm not educated enough to form a theory) is for more modern development of most technology based solely on the difference between Neanderthal and modern human lithics found in Europe and dated to the same period. When you get published I'd really be interested in reading your article. Hopefully you'll be able to change my mind. :)

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 4th, 2012 at 1:13pm
Your opinions are interesting, Alina; could you provide us the titles and Authors of the papers you refered to?
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by timann on Nov 4th, 2012 at 1:40pm
Thanks, Alina (does this name mean your secret identity is revealed?)

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Masiakasaurus on Nov 4th, 2012 at 2:56pm
It's a horribly unsuperhero thing to do, but she revealed her identity in her Intro topic a long while back.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 4th, 2012 at 4:55pm
Hey Mauro -

Yeah, science is all about transparency, so check these out:

Fletching/Bird feather culture:

Morin 2012
Peresani et al 2011
Hardy et al 2001

Faunal remains:

Boeda et al 1999 Wild Ass


Hafting evidence:

Rots 2009

Stone points:

Rots 2009
Villa 2009
Hutchings 2011
Lazuen 2012


If you google those names and dates, you should come up with the relevant journals.  If you want me to pull full citations, I'll have to take some time to type them up.  Since my copies of the articles are saved in this format, my personal notes keep it short.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 4th, 2012 at 5:06pm
Oh no problem, that's fine; I'll actually have little time to check them (hopefully I'm going to embark at the end of November!), but I'm going to keep them so I may take a look next Spring.
Oh and by the way - I've something really cool to tell you, about Neolithic bread making.
Don't know if you're interested in that, but as soon as I'll have the permission to do so I'll tell you about that anyway  :D
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 4th, 2012 at 6:22pm
Who doesn't want to hear about Neolithic bread making?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Masiakasaurus on Nov 4th, 2012 at 7:26pm

wrote on Nov 4th, 2012 at 6:22pm:
Who doesn't want to hear about Neolithic bread making?

Aye, tell away!

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Nov 5th, 2012 at 6:54am
definitely.
presumably personal grinding stones would survive and could be readily identified.

On the neanderthal feather side of things - I've been processing pheasants recently (got a new friend who works on a lot of shoots who keeps dropping them off and muggins here gets the job of preparig themfor the pot). Haven't kept any of the feathers beyond a few exceptional tail feathers from male pheasants.
But I did have to pluck a partridge last week and a wild duck and a teal last night.

So if anyone wants feathers let me know and I'll save some form the next birds we get.

The wings I just cut with poultry shears so you could have them whole. You don't want last nights as they're in a bag with all the heads and feet and innards :-)
But normally they're clean, bloodless and should post without any problem.

And given the simplicity and short learning curve of the atlatl - can't see any reason to disagree with the proposed longevity of it.  

doesn't bring us any closer to a definitive ageing of the sling though :-(

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 5th, 2012 at 9:59am
I think the work on the sling remains to be done by archaeologists, because they have never had a reliable method for looking at anything besides slingstones that were baked clay or modified stone.  That leaves open the question as to whether this represents a relatively late window in the sling's creation story or a relatively early one.  If I'm right, and modified stones came into use before slings, it could be the latter.  I really think looking at the rocks is going to tell the tale, but it's a project I can't take on just yet.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Bill Skinner on Nov 5th, 2012 at 10:54am
So, a couple of questions, what shape were they modified to, how big were they, is anyone sure they were for throwing?  Can you show pics?

I peck and grind axes, it isn't really hard but it is very time consuming, when you throw a rock, you don't really expect to get it back, so that is a lot of work for one use, the same is true of a dart or an arrow but you don't have near as much time in either.  

I think slings were invented for hunting birds, large flocks where a sling stone would go further into the formation, increasing the chances of a hit or at waterfowl in a marsh where the hunters couldn't approach close enough to strike a bird with a hand thrown rock.  And from the hunters' point of view, all they are out are some rocks.  They would have modified them enough to go straight but they wouldn't have gone to the effort of polishing them unless it was for some type of status.  Or warfare.

My example is a flock of geese on a golf course, they know they're safe but they won't let you get closer than about 50 meters or so.  That's a pretty good distance to throw a rock by hand and is way out of range of a hand thrown spear but is pretty easy to do with a sling.  And the remains of ducks and geese go back for a long time.  I am not saying that they were killed with a sling, just something to think about.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 5th, 2012 at 11:36am
I have pictures inside some PDF files, but I can't dig them out for you right now.  They're ethnographic examples, not archaeological examples, so we know for certain they were rocks meant for throwing as weapons.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Nov 5th, 2012 at 1:26pm
I second Bill,that why shape stones to throw by hand? Hand thrown rocks travel so little,so slow,that shape has barely an effect on their performance. Me thinks,no humanoid would waste time to shape rocks to throw them by hand. Even for slings,it was much less done,than picked river stones.
Also I would think, early humans would first use natural stones,before they would start to shape them. Of course,natural stones would be hard to recognized as sling ammo.Unless they would be a bunch of them in a hunt site,or among a burials stuff around a skeleton.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 5th, 2012 at 4:25pm

jlasud wrote on Nov 5th, 2012 at 1:26pm:
I second Bill,that why shape stones to throw by hand? Hand thrown rocks travel so little,so slow,that shape has barely an effect on their performance. Me thinks,no humanoid would waste time to shape rocks to throw them by hand. Even for slings,it was much less done,than picked river stones.
Also I would think, early humans would first use natural stones,before they would start to shape them. Of course,natural stones would be hard to recognized as sling ammo.Unless they would be a bunch of them in a hunt site,or among a burials stuff around a skeleton.


The point of it was that we don't throw slowly.  We throw with lethal force without a sling.  For me, that's true.  I can throw a rock just as lethally within 10 yards and with a considerable degree more accuracy.  The sling gives me the speed to get out to range.  You could argue that obviously if the sling moves the rock faster it has more power at close range, and this is certainly true, but lethal is a binary thing, and they both tick the box.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Bill Skinner on Nov 5th, 2012 at 6:56pm
Exactly, for 10 yards, you don't need to shape it.  It won't curve due to inbalance enough to miss even a small target at that range.  I'm not even sure you would shape it for warfare, again, lots of hours of work for one throw, and if it's magic, they can use the magic against you by throwing it back.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Morphy on Nov 5th, 2012 at 7:02pm
Think of it from a ancient hunters point of view.  Your bow or atlatl is already the more lethal weapon generally speaking.  Body shots on large game simply won't do with a sling.  So what niche is the sling filling if they are still putting all that time in to master it ?  Because it goes without saying that it must have been filling a need, otherwise it would not have been used.  

The only one I can think of is that you can take tons of shots you would otherwise avoid with a bow or atlatl.  Making a really good arrow that is going to hit it's mark with just flint flakes or a knife is a lot of work.  Hence the need for the sling.  

If you take away that one huge advantage by making the sling ammo even more difficult to make than a good arrow there is no need to use it IMHO.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 6th, 2012 at 12:22am
The ethnographic records list lethal stone throws, without slings, at ranges greater than an 18th century musket - some 50-100 yards.  This may seem incredible, but if you take into account a well-balanced and shaped stone, it makes sense.  Football quarterbacks do something similar every Sunday in the US.  Furthermore, natives relying on thrown rocks for hunting would have been very accurate, and their accuracy is well-attested in the same sources.

I think modified stones are a key to accuracy with a sling.  Rocks picked up off the ground work, but they're very hard to aim effectively over any kind of distance.  And if modifying rocks was a waste of energy, why so many slingstones gathered and placed beside the walls of neolithic fortifications?

I think the true place of the sling is in warfare in the neolithic in areas where arrows would have been prohibitively costly or good bow woods couldn't be found - mountainous areas, desert areas, tropical islands lacking hardwoods - in short, the places where we find them.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Nov 6th, 2012 at 1:17am
50-100 yard killshots on humans? is beyond my immagination. At 10 yards it's realistic. At 50 yards,the opponent would have enough time to take a few steps away,and light his cigarette until the stone arrives,shaped or not.
As for hunting..i can imagine throwing rocks at small game and sometimes,when they're not paying attention,getting killed. How close can you get to an animal,before he observes you and runs away. How much time it takes the stone to get there.2 seconds can be a LOT of time,for game to react.
And like Morphy and others said,one of the big advantages of slings is that you can use natural stones,that can work quite well.Obviously for hand throwing ,more so.
And saving on arrows and atlatl darts and the possibility of using natural rocks as ammo,without having to work them maybe THE reason or one of the main reason that slings are still around.
For slingstones,sometimes it worth shaping them.For ex.there are no quick flowing rivers around,and only "crappy" stones.Then you knock off some corners,grind it a bit here and there,to not kill your slings with them,and have a bit more accuracy and range with them.Or like the guys in pacific,you do some awesome shaping,for excellent sling ammo.
I agree,the sling probably had it's most potential at neolithic-bronze age warfare.Lots of ammo gathered in a short time,and quite deadly on humans.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Nov 6th, 2012 at 5:20am
Most interesting thread I've read in a while, thanks to Alina.

Any references for the ethnography of hand-throwns ? I'm interested in this because in ancient Greek warfare, the stone thrown by hand is really important (in skirmishing, siege warfare, etc)-- and some data on possibilities would be very welcome.

(On hand-thrown stones, and slings, in Greek war, the go-to place is W. K. Pritchett, The Greek State at war, in volume 5).


Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Pikåru on Nov 6th, 2012 at 10:24am
I thought that various stone or other object throwing competitions like the discus, hammer toss, shot put and other activities you see during the Highland games were reminiscent of stone throwing in battle.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Bill Skinner on Nov 6th, 2012 at 11:25am
Tha Masai and Swahili throw their knobkerries over 100 meters.  A knobkerry is a type of ball headed warclub.  They are not aiming at an individial, they are throwing at a group.  It works for warfare, not so good for hunting.  They both use slings for hunting, usually birds and small game.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Morphy on Nov 6th, 2012 at 12:31pm

jlasud wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 1:17am:
50-100 yard killshots on humans? is beyond my immagination. At 10 yards it's realistic. At 50 yards,the opponent would have enough time to take a few steps away,and light his cigarette until the stone arrives,shaped or not.
As for hunting..i can imagine throwing rocks at small game and sometimes,when they're not paying attention,getting killed. How close can you get to an animal,before he observes you and runs away. How much time it takes the stone to get there.2 seconds can be a LOT of time,for game to react.
And like Morphy and others said,one of the big advantages of slings is that you can use natural stones,that can work quite well.Obviously for hand throwing ,more so.
And saving on arrows and atlatl darts and the possibility of using natural rocks as ammo,without having to work them maybe THE reason or one of the main reason that slings are still around.
For slingstones,sometimes it worth shaping them.For ex.there are no quick flowing rivers around,and only "crappy" stones.Then you knock off some corners,grind it a bit here and there,to not kill your slings with them,and have a bit more accuracy and range with them.Or like the guys in pacific,you do some awesome shaping,for excellent sling ammo.
I agree,the sling probably had it's most potential at neolithic-bronze age warfare.Lots of ammo gathered in a short time,and quite deadly on humans.


Pretty much everything you have posted here I agree with.  I cannot tell you how many times I've had a squirrel dodge a stone that was slung at them from 10 meters away.  The stone was probably going well over 100 mph and shatters to dust when it hits the boulders that the squirrel was standing next to.  It sounds crazy, but it's happened, alot... Whether they are spooked by the throwing motion or what I can't say.

If I was in an area that didn't have good enough stones for accuracy I would make clay.  If I had no clay, lead or any other ammo, I would not be using my sling. After a certain point, if your ammo's not good enough, it's just not good enough.  Doesn't matter how good you are.  It's still a projectile weapon and is bound by all the same rules as far as ammo, as every other projectile weapon is.  

If I was in that situation I would either resort to rabbit sticks or put all the time I would spend in grinding stones into making blunt arrows.  

Every weapon that is adopted through out history always fills a niche.  If it doesn't, it's either rarely used, or it's from India.  ;)

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Pikåru on Nov 6th, 2012 at 12:44pm
"... or it's from India." Now that's some funny stuff right there. I don't care where you're from.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Nov 6th, 2012 at 3:17pm
The best handthrown stones must be nicely oval river pebbles, filling the hand, egg shaped or a bit flatter. In fact, the same thing as for a sling. Easy enough if you have the right geology. If not, you can cart them in from a bit further (as at Maiden Castle).

If not, you have the choice between throwing whatever you can get your hands on-- rough stones; but if you have time (and I think hunter gatherers, and even early agriculturalists have plenty of free time, depending on season), why not shape the stones to make sure that you get extra performance ? If it might make a difference between the hit and the miss, and if you've finished curing skins or gathering stuff, why not ?

My own take on this possibility. But I think that shaped stones from later, slinging periods, are not well known (I can think of one or two, I think from Kameiros where so many lead bullets were found). Perhaps lead easier ?

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 6th, 2012 at 4:00pm
The lethality is not my assessment, but the assessment of the men being attacked by the stones in the ethnographic accounts.  It wasn't one stone that killed, but dozens that cut a man to pieces and battered him beyond recognition.  For hunting, they would stun the animal with the rock, rush over, and club it to death before it recovered.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Nov 6th, 2012 at 4:20pm
Next time I'm slinging against my favorite cliff, I'll try to throw accurately at say 20 paces-- I already find this well within slinging envelope...

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Nov 7th, 2012 at 1:36am

wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 4:00pm:
The lethality is not my assessment, but the assessment of the men being attacked by the stones in the ethnographic accounts.  It wasn't one stone that killed, but dozens that cut a man to pieces and battered him beyond recognition.  For hunting, they would stun the animal with the rock, rush over, and club it to death before it recovered.


Stoning people to death,with a hail of stones,happens,even nowadays.
For hunting,i think they have to be really good,sneak up unnoticed,wait,for the game to look in another direction,and while naked,with a good throw from 10-15 yards,nail it. I imagine even the experienced at this act would go home more often empty handed,then with a kill. But with primitive projectile technology,it's often the case. Which keeps the fauna more balanced imo.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Nov 7th, 2012 at 2:19pm
More thoughts, prompted by the discussion above.

Slings allow you to shoot far beyond the range of handthrowns, with a number of applications-- hunting medium game at say 80 m, firing at birds at 100 m, and shooting at people at those ranges and even much further, with big war slings.

But what about the window where both handthrowns and slings have the same range ? Reading Alina's points about "throwing cultures" being able to achieve very good ranges, there must be substantial overlap. So take the distance of 25 m, good both for the hand and the sling. The advantage about the sling, i would argue, is that at that distance it eliminates the need to lob shots, which is trickier and slower: the sling gives a flat (and fast) trajectory.

The experimental evidence here is the snowball fight, at mid range: lobbers miss and scatter and their shots get dodged or blocked, but snow slingers shoot straight and true and drive their foe off the snowy field.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Bill Skinner on Nov 7th, 2012 at 9:22pm
I would like to disagree with 25m as an overlap range.  That is about the max range you want to shoot an arrow at game, they'll dodge it about 40% of the time, even if they are completely unsuspecting.  If they are alert, your chances of a hit drop to almost 0.  I think Atlatlista is correct when she used 10 meters.  With care and practice, you can get that close to game animals, sometimes closer, which causes a dilema for the hunter:  That close, when you move, the animal will spot you and react when you throw, so do you wait until it get a little further away and take a possibly poorer shot or take the close one and hope that the animals reaction doesn't cause you hit it in a non crippling area and it escapes.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Nov 8th, 2012 at 8:08am
An experienced man. I suggested 25 just as a range for target shooting-- I can hit with a sling, and think I could hit with the hand. Maybe I should start trying to throw flat.

Conclusion: slingers, also practice throwing with the hand.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by timann on Nov 8th, 2012 at 11:48am
I try to practice my hand throw as well, but not as often as I should.  Beeing in my age I need to warm up my shoulder well before I really throw by hand, and I am a lousy thrower anyway.  But I try to practice throwing up to 10 meters, my overlap distance, in case my dinner or enemy try to charge me.  Not a big chance I`ll ever be in that situation, but I try to practice slinging "for real" and it`s best to be prepared if something gets inside my effective range.  That should be done with any weapon, right?

A good sling stone hand thrown toward your face would at least be a distraction either as a hit or as something to dodge or flinch.  I try to consider it as a shuriken rather than a "Instant Death 2000 Implement".
Behind that would be an enraged timann with a knife, stick, club, machete or whatnot :D

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Thearos on Nov 8th, 2012 at 5:42pm
In snowball fights, I'm always surprised at HOW BAD I am, even at nearly point blank ranges. Must practise. Hit that tree. Hit that traffic sign. One throw, one hit. If not, move one and try something else at another, estimated distance, hoping that this time, the weight will feel right and the release work out and not fall short.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Masiakasaurus on Nov 16th, 2012 at 8:48am
My "late developement of complex technologies" theory is becoming less and less likely. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/nov/15/stone-spear-early-human-species

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 16th, 2012 at 7:01pm
I'm betting that's just the tip of the iceberg.  I'm in communication with a professor who proved prime-age hunting at 1.5 million BP.  I'm guessing hafted stone tools may go back even that far.  I certainly can't think of any definitive cognitive barrier preventing it.  I think the concept of "behavioral modernity" is codswallop.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 16th, 2012 at 7:29pm
If I'm not wrong, first chopping tools dates back to 2 billion years; they produced chips in making these tools and it's a small step to produce a chip with a good point, from there  :)
I'm really optimist regarding our ancestors!
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by David Morningstar on Nov 17th, 2012 at 1:39am
Cyanobacteria were making stone tools?  :o

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 17th, 2012 at 9:17am
I think he meant million, and just a little correction on my post, the professor I'm talking to is saying 2 million, not 1.6, that's the difference between his figure and schoningen.  If he's right, then that means we are four times closer in temporal proximity to the Homo heidelbergensis guys at schoningen than they are to the first hunters.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Masiakasaurus on Nov 17th, 2012 at 9:36am
I think you mean 2,000,000 not 2,000,000,000. :o ;) What I know about human and animal cognition tells me that learning capacity and memory are not tied together. Chimpanzee and apes are capably of learning many complex things and of transmitting this new knowledge to each other and across species, which accounts for their use of sign language and of digging sticks. They are not capable of remember these things easily when prompted, however. The context of the actions is not tied to the actions, through use chimpanzees and apes must reteach themselves what response is suitable to each situation. (The same is true of Ravens and dolphins.) After very little time they also forget the steps necessary for these complex tasks and must relearn them from someone they had previously taught (provided the knowledge is still accessable). It's almost like senile dementia in that regard. A colloquialism for this is "vuja de" in English, the feeling that something is completely new when in fact you have done it many times before. (It's one of the more disconcerting symptoms experienced by stroke victims.) I think that our memory capacity for complex processes is a relatively modern trait which facilitated the adoption of complex technology because we more easily remembered the smaller constituent technologies involved. Not that I'm saying I think Homo sapiens can remember well and no other hominid did, rather I'm saying that early hominids likely had only slightly better complex memory than their ancestors and later populations of hominids gradually increased their memory capacity independently of brain size or general intelligence level until we reached a critical mass level.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Atlatlista on Nov 17th, 2012 at 9:39am
That's an interesting point.  Nonetheless, I'm definitely in favor of arguing for a relatively "early" mark for behavioral modernity and complexity - closer to 2 million BP than 200,000.  Even that though isn't all that early when you consider that australopiths with more human-like traits were around 3.5MYA.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Nov 17th, 2012 at 10:24am
Whooops 2 million yes  ;D
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by jlasud on Nov 25th, 2012 at 4:28am
A thought about early man,early cordage,old slings:
Humans grow hair.very long hair,since...very long times.
If human hair is let to grow,and is not combed,indifferent of hair type,eventually it will form dreadlocks.
It's like cordage growing from your head.So early men might just cut two dreads,tied it to form a split pouch,made a finger/wrist loop and tied a release knot and he had a sling.He just had to know what's a sling and to be able to make knots. Hair not cut for 10 years is enough to make slings of.And dreadlocks are very strong,and come in all shapes and sizes,but many times they are also thin,long,straight locks,without "branches" suitable for slings.
So,one can lengthen his arm,with the hair growing on his head  :)

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 6th, 2013 at 10:35am
rope made out of woven animal hair is pretty common. No reason you can't make it out of human hair either.

Currently writing a story with a slinger in who does just that when he's thrown into jail (he's an amoral sociopath).
A hair sling and a bullet made from stone dust and spittle usually helps him escape.
 

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Revolutionary on Apr 17th, 2013 at 6:25pm
maybe the first sling was made by some nerdy teenage caveman who had no friends and wasn't allowed to hunt. i can picture it in my head "what is he doing over there in the corner?" "is that string and some rocks?" "he's so weird"

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 18th, 2013 at 6:41am
could be.

But how would you tell teenage cavemen apart - didn't they all grunt ?  ;D

Title: Re: How old is the oldest evidence of sling usage
Post by Dan on Apr 18th, 2013 at 10:44am

My original post said the first evidence of slings in the Bible was with the Benjamites. However, as found with badgers new post in general discussion. Slingstones are mentioned in Job, which was written significantly before the book of judges. Judging by geneologies, about 400-600 years before.

So slings have been around for awhile.  :)

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