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Message started by Rat Man on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:17am

Title: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Rat Man on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:17am
Do you consider yourself a patriot?  If not, why?  If so, what does that actually mean to you?  I suspect that this is a topic that can heat up quickly so please, as always, try to be respectful to those who see things differently than you.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Rat Man on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:31am
   Normally I sit back and wait for a few responses, but I'll start the ball rolling this time.  I'm a yes, I consider myself a patriot.  I can see several of you cringing as you read this.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not one of those "My country, right or wrong" rednecks.  Not everything my country does or did is or has been good.  America has made huge mistakes and done some horrendous things.  But we have the means to fix or if not at least stop such errors.  To anyone who hates America and actually lives here I suggest that you spend some time in a Third World nation.  Once you see how real corruption and hopelessness takes hold America starts to look pretty good.  
  Besides that, my ancestors have lived here for several hundred years.  This country had fed, clothed, and educated me my entire life.  It's medical system, flawed as it is, keeps me alive.  I'm glad that I was able to give six years of my life in repayment.  I'm proud that I did so.
   As misguided as our foreign policy can be, at times abysmally so, I still shudder to think what the world would be like if America never existed.  My country can be wrong, can make very bad mistakes, but I still love America and would die to defend it.  (Not just a metaphor)

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by kuggur slingdog on Feb 5th, 2012 at 12:36pm
No, I am not.  Patriotism is a pretty tainted term where I come from.
There are (probably) legit reasons for killing your fellow men. I don´t count "for your country" among them. And for the US citizens thinking their country should be "defended", I ask from what? When was the last time a foreign army threatened to invade your soil?

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Masiakasaurus on Feb 5th, 2012 at 12:57pm
I think we're getting patriotism and nationalism mixed up. Patriotism is devotion to one's country, as in the place where you were born and the people in it. Nationalism is devotion to your government and it's policies both foreign and domestic.

I consider myself both a patriot and a nationalist. I love where I live, and I feel that I have a special connection to it. I support my government not because I think it's perfect but because I think it's redeemable and in our current system I have the power to change what I feel is wrong. Both should be defended, in my opinion, from external threats such as hostile nations and also from internal threats such as corruption and jingoism. It doesn't matter to me if there have been no recent threats to the sovereignty of the United States or the safety of the people in it. I keep my important documents in a fire-proof safe even though I've never been in a fire, I carry an umbrella when there is only a marginal chance of rain, and I have insurance though I am perfectly healthy right now. Defense of "Queen and Country" is practical and what I would call good stewardship.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by kuggur slingdog on Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:14pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 12:57pm:
I think we're getting patriotism and nationalism mixed up. Patriotism is devotion to one's country, as in the place where you were born and the people in it. Nationalism is devotion to your government and it's policies both foreign and domestic.

I consider myself both a patriot and a nationalist..

No offense Masia, but it sounds to me like handing over your brain....


Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by xxkid123 on Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:17pm
I would say I'm a patriot, the American education system has at least done that to me ;). In comparison to many other countries in the west I would rather live in America. So yes, I do love my country. I don't however, agree with many of it's policy's. Plus we've pretty much committed mass genocide- Native Americans are extremely rare these days. I won't even begin on Slavery.

BTW: does this have anything to do with tonight's superbowl? Giants vs Patriots? Then I'm a patriots fan, I can't stand giants so by default I'm rooting for the other.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by kuggur slingdog on Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:27pm
In my opinion patriotism/nationalism does not have a lot do do with love for your country.
Don´t forget that these things played very prominent roles in the nazi propaganda machine, making it very suspect here in Europe.
Warmongers all over the world have abused these kind of feelings.
Are your soldiers in Irak defending the US? really?

NB Ratman, a couple of hundred of years is a very, very short period of time, just a couple of generations...

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:42pm
First of all: as Rat Man wrote, let this topic be respectful and keep it on an adult level.
That said, please remember that English is not my mother language, and you may have the feeling that I'm writing in a polemic or quarreling tone. This is not, the following are just my ideas and I have absolutely no intention to quarrel with anybody (at least not on a frivolous matter such as being patriotic or not)  :)


And now my ideas...
I am not a patriot, for a very simple reason: I was born in Italy just by chance.
Mixing up  ;) being patriotic and nationalist, I consider my life much more valuable than any Nation, State or Country I could live in. This because I can't see any good reason for the existance of borders and boundaries.
I also believe that concepts like welfare, medical system, public education and so on are transient too.
I consider myself citizen of the world (understood as a group of people willing to cooperate and work toghether) rather than being merely an Italian, for the idea that I belong to an Italian ensemble is somehow limiting.
More anarchically, I've a strong faith on people's humaneness, which is, I believe, able to rule our lives much better than the adoption of laws and borders.
That said, I love to live in this place, which has been called, during various times, "Ombro", "Regio VI Picena", "Italia", "Esarcato", "Pentapoli", "Marca Anconitana", "Stato della Chiesa", and then "Italia" again.
I love most of the people that surround me, I love the places, I love the fact that we're the result of a "melting pot" (which still happens everyday). I love to live in a place which gave the world some of its most important thinkers and art. I love the fact that our medical system is free and our school is, too.
But I don't feel any property right on these things, and I don't fear anybody who would destroy such a system. Why destroy something that works so well?


That said, I'm not going to join the Italian Army in any war, as long as our politician's sons remain at home, as they have always done during the last 150 years. Because I'm not cannon fodder and there're higher reasons I'd die for, rather than the concept of "Italian nation": my family, my freedom, my house, the fact that we all have the same rights, duties and freedoms.
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Masiakasaurus on Feb 5th, 2012 at 4:29pm
Assuming that you are not being sarcastic, Kuggur, here is my opinion:

I believe I addressed jingoism in my original post, but let me expand on it. Jingoism and Ultranationalism (fanaticism about one's government and prejudice against other governments, respectively) are two of the greatest corrupting influences on a government and the people in it and Naziism was a horrible, horrible thing. I do not think I am "handing over my brain" because I do think about what my government does and I choose to protest against what I feel is wrong. Just recently I participated in a large scale protest against internet censorship in the US, writing letter to many in my government. Not surprisingly, it worked. My government still listens to the wishes of its people, which makes me believe that it is still redeemable. I am a nationalist devoted to my government because I choose to change it rather than leave the country.

As for the association of Naziism and nationalism, it is a non-argument. The Nazis made cheap automobiles, is afford-ability bad? Naziism began in Germany, is being German bad? Naziism was horrible and I fervently wish that it will disappear forever, but I will not fall into the trap of ultranationalism buy implying any other government has an association to Naziism. The way I choose to accomplish that is to actively fight against similar ideas within my government. Regrettably I have no voice in other's governments, but I hope other nationalists will fight to keep their countries from crossing that line.

As for US soldiers in Iraq, I will gladly expound upon it via PM in order to prevent this thread from spiraling into a fight but I am fairly certain that it was a rhetorical question.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Rat Man on Feb 5th, 2012 at 5:25pm

wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 2:27pm:
NB Ratman, a couple of hundred of years is a very, very short period of time, just a couple of generations...


It's not a short time for an American.  Unless you're a Native American, your forefathers were immigrants.  We are a "mongrel nation," as Hitler called us.  I am Lithuanian, British, French Canadian, and Iroquois and I'm not unique.  My daughter is Lithuanian, British, French Canadian, Iroquois,  Italian, German, Irish, French, and Cherokee.  You get the idea.  A few hundred years is as long as anyone else I know.  Besides that, even if I were second generation I'd still feel the same.  
   Also, there's much more to Patriotism than just killing your fellow man in a war.  It's how you live your life.  Is your community, state, country better or worse because you live there?  Are you part of the problem or part of the solution.  Going to work, paying your taxes, being a law abiding citizen, being a good neighbor, voting conscientiously, etc... they're all part of it.  I've never killed anyone in my life.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Dan on Feb 5th, 2012 at 9:49pm

God should and will always come first in my heart, thankfully right now, that's the way it is here in the U.S.  
I love my country and, if it is asked of me, I am willing to defend the freedoms we have here with my life.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by bigkahuna on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:07pm
Today I am a GIANT!!!!!!!!! ;D.............................................................sorry, it's a New York thing.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by bigkahuna on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:33pm

Rat Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:31am:
   Normally I sit back and wait for a few responses, but I'll start the ball rolling this time.  I'm a yes, I consider myself a patriot.  I can see several of you cringing as you read this.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not one of those "My country, right or wrong" rednecks.  Not everything my country does or did is or has been good.  America has made huge mistakes and done some horrendous things.  But we have the means to fix or if not at least stop such errors.  To anyone who hates America and actually lives here I suggest that you spend some time in a Third World nation.  Once you see how real corruption and hopelessness takes hold America starts to look pretty good.  
  Besides that, my ancestors have lived here for several hundred years.  This country had fed, clothed, and educated me my entire life.  It's medical system, flawed as it is, keeps me alive.  I'm glad that I was able to give six years of my life in repayment.  I'm proud that I did so.




That "Redneck Phrase" you mention RatMan is not so bad. In full it says, " My country, right or wrong. If it's right, keep it right. If it's wrong, make it right." Something that we as Americans, should take to heart. And yes I am a Patriot. I think New York is the greatest country in the world.
   As misguided as our foreign policy can be, at times abysmally so, I still shudder to think what the world would be like if America never existed.  My country can be wrong, can make very bad mistakes, but I still love America and would die to defend it.  (Not just a metaphor)


Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by nemo on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:38pm
I would say I see myself as patriotic, but others may disagree and I hope I dont rant too much!

Coming from Belfast, this is an issue forced upon many of us from as soon as we talk. There is the constant question,  are you Catholic or are your Protestant, are you Irish or are you British. I fortunately come from a mixed family (with both a Protestant and Catholic parents) and so wasnt quite thrown in the deep in with so many prejudices, but through growing up in a school system with others who arent, I know for certain I have been heavily swayed.
Fortunately the trouble has died down here now and so me and my friends havent been caught up in much of the fighting, otherwise I can almost certainly say I would have friends who would have joined the paramilitaries.

But this is when I ask the question, what is a better reason to die for? As Mauro said, he sees his life as worth more than someone's interpretation of 'Italia', and am I right in thinking that you might give your life for someone or something you loved dearly? As one person may give their life for a person, I see giving your life for the freedom of your country that you love to be of equal importance.
Perhaps it is slightly different and the situation that brings me to such extremeism in this case, but in my view my country has been invaded and horribly persecuted by the English for hundreds of years (since before America was even re-discovered by Columbus). I know that is going pretty far back to hold a grudge, but the persecutions have gone on since then, up until 20 odd years ago (and some would still say this day). With rights taken away from the Irish, genocide committed on our nation, destruction of our culture and history, enabling a famine in a land producing plenty of food, severe mistreatment of the citizens, collusion with paramilitaries to target and murder sections of our communties are only some of the reasons why I get worked up. If a nation had committed all of these crimes against your country and ancestors (and there are more than enough living people who have been directly affected) then would you not get worked up also. When the fighting is in your own street, when you have enemy soliders sitting in your garden hedge with a gun pointed at your house, this is enough to make me want freedom.

And I know freedom wont be all flowers and rainbows. The south of Ireland is in a real state at the moment through greedy politicians and bankers. But I would rather die poor with my country independant, than rich and regretting it in my death bed.
We will all die sometime, we just need to make a mark with our life, and its up to us how we choose to do it.

Nemo

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Woonilsra on Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:24pm
No.

I'm glad to live in America, with a wonderful education system in my town. Better than being in Nigeria.
I'm glad this government does try to improve the country, generally for the better.
I'm glad we have little corruption compared to other parts of the world, like Japan or Russia. We don't have the Yakuza controlling cities, or Putin doing whatever he wants, or the government censoring anyone they dislike.

I associate the word "patriot" with love for a countries actions and practices, not the values it claims to hold up, though those may be present in their actions. I associate it with the way it's people act. With the United States (my country of birth) I see a government  doing whatever it wants, citizens of other nations be damned. WWII? Not our problem. Pearl Harbor occurs? Down with Japanese totalitarianism. Massacre in Africa? It can wait. The U.S comes off as greedy and self absorbed. It's people ignorant and uninformed of the world, without a desire to change (for the most part). Part of U.S Declaration of Independence, second paragraph-

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
-Slavery was allowed
-Native Americans, Jews, Blacks, Atheists, Homosexuals, Women persecuted

Extreme hypocrisy. Even today, those of us here can certainly think of things we would consider injustice.

To get to the point, I am not patriotic because ideals should be admired more than a country itself or its people. I see little to admire the United States and its people for.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by kuggur slingdog on Feb 6th, 2012 at 4:33am
I like your answer Woonilsra.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Feb 6th, 2012 at 7:42am

Woonilsra wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
I see little to admire the United States and its people for.


I see little to admire the U.S., as I see little to admire Italy.
But U.S. gave birth to Martin Luther King, and Italy gave birth to Cesare Beccaria (just 2 names). They prosecuted racism and death penalty.
Again, they were Amerincan and Italian just by chance (people of the same morale statute born in other Nations as well); but they expressed the best of that humanity I wrote above.

A little thinking to nemo: friend, I totally agree with your patriotic view.
I believe that if I was 25 during WW2, I would have joined partisans fighting nazists and fascists. But I would have done that not to free my country, but to fight their stupid ideology, and regain my personal freedoms.
I repeat, I will not join any war until Italian politicians's sons will do that too: there's no difference between me and them.

Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by fletch_man on Feb 6th, 2012 at 11:02am
Your Country is more than a piece of ground, or the silly politicians that run it, or it's wishy washy policies.  Your Country is your way of life, what you belive in, those you care about.  It's all silly talk till you have to decide if you're going to turn tail and run or plant your feet and tell the aggressors "No Further".  It's really more about what kind of Man/Woman/Human Being you are.  There will always be Men who fold and Men who stand.  It's a decision we'll all have to make one day.  I guess you could call me an "Unconventional Patriot".      

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 6th, 2012 at 12:15pm

Quote:
Patriotism is a devotion to one's country, excluding differences caused by the dependencies of the term's meaning upon context, geography and philosophy. In a generalized sense applicable to all countries and peoples, patriotism is a devotion to one's country.

It is a related sentiment to nationalism.[1][2][3]

The English term patriot is first attested in the Elizabethan era, via Middle French from Late Latin (6th century) patriota "countryman", ultimately from Greek πατριώτης (patriōtēs) "countryman", from πατρίς, "fatherland".[4] The abstract noun patriotism appears in the early 18th century.[5]



Quote:
Enlightenment England and France

In classical 18th century patriotism, loyalty to the State was chiefly considered in contrast to loyalty to the Church, and it was argued that clerics should not be allowed to teach in public schools as their patrie was heaven, so that they could not inspire love of the homeland in their students. One of the most influential proponents of this classical notion of patriotism was Jean-Jacques Rousseau.[1]

Conversely, in 1774, Samuel Johnson published The Patriot, a critique of what he viewed as false patriotism. On the evening of 7 April 1775, he made the famous statement, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."[6] This line was not, as widely believed, about patriotism in general, but the false use of the term "patriotism" by John Stuart, 3rd Earl of Bute (the patriot-minister) and his supporters; Johnson opposed "self-professed Patriots" in general, but valued what he considered "true" patriotism.[7]
[edit] Philosophical issues

Patriotism may be strengthened by adherence to a national religion (a civil religion or even a theocracy). This is the opposite of the separation of church and state demanded by the Enlightenment thinkers who saw patriotism and faith as opposing forces. Others, such as Michael Billig or Jean Bethke Elshtain argue that the difference is difficult to discern and relies largely on the attitude of the labeller.[8]


Interesting concept.

I consider myself a true englishman - but that certainly doesn't mean automatically agreeing with what the government decide to do.

But I am down with the original meaning and support civil power over theological power.

But other than that, it's one of those extremely ambiguous terms that has no clear practical definition.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by fletch_man on Feb 6th, 2012 at 4:43pm


But other than that, it's one of those extremely ambiguous terms that has no clear practical definition.
[/quote]

You mean like "Jumbo Shrimp" or "Military Intelligence"?

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Masiakasaurus on Feb 6th, 2012 at 5:43pm
While I don't see anything wrong with your opinion on patriotism, I think you used a bad example to support your opinion.

Woonilsra wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
No...

I associate the word "patriot" with love for a countries actions and practices, not the values it claims to hold up, though those may be present in their actions. I associate it with the way it's people act. With the United States (my country of birth) I see a government  doing whatever it wants, citizens of other nations be damned. WWII? Not our problem. Pearl Harbor occurs? Down with Japanese totalitarianism.

Pearl Harbor occurred because the US stopped selling steel and petroleum to the Japanese. The US did so because the Japanese invaded Mongolia, because the Japanese were allied with Germany, and because the Nazis were rampaging Europe. The plan was to force the Japanese into declaring war on us so that we could then declare war on Japan's allies and enter the war. Japan, however, chose to break international law and attack without formally declaring war in order to prevent our pacific fleet from being able to defend Britain's overseas colonies once we did enter the war. Pearl Harbor was the result of an American attempt to help Britain against a German invasion and a Japanese attempt to prevent the US from having an effect on the war once we entered.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by HurlinThom on Feb 6th, 2012 at 7:54pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 5:43pm:
While I don't see anything wrong with your opinion on patriotism, I think you used a bad example to support your opinion.

Woonilsra wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
No...

I associate the word "patriot" with love for a countries actions and practices, not the values it claims to hold up, though those may be present in their actions. I associate it with the way it's people act. With the United States (my country of birth) I see a government  doing whatever it wants, citizens of other nations be damned. WWII? Not our problem. Pearl Harbor occurs? Down with Japanese totalitarianism.

Pearl Harbor occurred because the US stopped selling steel and petroleum to the Japanese. The US did so because the Japanese invaded Mongolia, because the Japanese were allied with Germany, and because the Nazis were rampaging Europe. The plan was to force the Japanese into declaring war on us so that we could then declare war on Japan's allies and enter the war. Japan, however, chose to break international law and attack without formally declaring war in order to prevent our pacific fleet from being able to defend Britain's overseas colonies once we did enter the war. Pearl Harbor was the result of an American attempt to help Britain against a German invasion and a Japanese attempt to prevent the US from having an effect on the war once we entered.

Masi, Japan had annexed Manchuria, not Mongolia. We cut them off from materials to pressure them to stop attacking our ally China. The attack on Pearl Harbor was supposed to be after a declaration of war was delivered by the Japanese but that missed the deadline and the attack went ahead anyhow as it was too late to scrub. That we were using Japan as an excuse to join the fight in Europe smacks of revisionist conspiracy thinking.

Kruggur, the last time an army invaded the USA was a bit over 100 years ago when the Brits burned Washington DC. And a couple of hundred years these days is like a couple of thousand in the past. The Romans occupied most of Britain for about 400 years and civilization was generally static while in my lifetime we've put men in space, even on the moon, and have studied other planets in our solar system from very close. Not to mention advances in medicine.  

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Rat Man on Feb 6th, 2012 at 8:12pm

bigkahuna wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:33pm:

Rat Man wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:31am:
   Normally I sit back and wait for a few responses, but I'll start the ball rolling this time.  I'm a yes, I consider myself a patriot.  I can see several of you cringing as you read this.  Don't get me wrong... I'm not one of those "My country, right or wrong" rednecks.  Not everything my country does or did is or has been good.  America has made huge mistakes and done some horrendous things.  But we have the means to fix or if not at least stop such errors.  To anyone who hates America and actually lives here I suggest that you spend some time in a Third World nation.  Once you see how real corruption and hopelessness takes hold America starts to look pretty good.  
  Besides that, my ancestors have lived here for several hundred years.  This country had fed, clothed, and educated me my entire life.  It's medical system, flawed as it is, keeps me alive.  I'm glad that I was able to give six years of my life in repayment.  I'm proud that I did so.




That "Redneck Phrase" you mention RatMan is not so bad. In full it says, " My country, right or wrong. If it's right, keep it right. If it's wrong, make it right." Something that we as Americans, should take to heart. And yes I am a Patriot. I think New York is the greatest country in the world.
   As misguided as our foreign policy can be, at times abysmally so, I still shudder to think what the world would be like if America never existed.  My country can be wrong, can make very bad mistakes, but I still love America and would die to defend it.  (Not just a metaphor)


I guess it was unfair to saddle rednecks with that.  But there are those who feel that our government can do no wrong.  Obviously this is crap.  My apologies to any rednecks I offended.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Aussie on Feb 6th, 2012 at 8:15pm
I don't know if I'm a "patriot" but I do think I'm patriotic. So often we tend to see patriotism in terms of conflict, or at least of comparison, between our own nation and others. However patriotism can also be seen as loyalty and concern for one's own, in the same sense as being loyal to one's family. It doesn't mean that our families or our nations are intrinsically superior, or inferior, to others; it's just that they are our own. And so we love them, warts and all.

Would I "DIE for my country"? I don't know. I'll face that unlikely question when and if it ever arises. But in the meantime I'd much prefer to LIVE in my country and contribute to it in my family, my job, my community in general - a sort of practical patriotism if you like.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Masiakasaurus on Feb 6th, 2012 at 8:36pm

HurlinThom wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 7:54pm:
Masi, Japan had annexed Manchuria, not Mongolia.

You're right. Japan's fighting in Mongolia was toward the end of the war and the invasion of Manchuria was slightly before World War 2 began. Even withholding oil from the Japanese in response to their embargo/invasion of China counts as American interest in stopping Imperial Japan before the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by bigkahuna on Feb 6th, 2012 at 9:19pm

HurlinThom wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 7:54pm:

Masiakasaurus wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 5:43pm:
While I don't see anything wrong with your opinion on patriotism, I think you used a bad example to support your opinion.

Woonilsra wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
No...

I associate the word "patriot" with love for a countries actions and practices, not the values it claims to hold up, though those may be present in their actions. I associate it with the way it's people act. With the United States (my country of birth) I see a government  doing whatever it wants, citizens of other nations be damned. WWII? Not our problem. Pearl Harbor occurs? Down with Japanese totalitarianism.

Pearl Harbor occurred because the US stopped selling steel and petroleum to the Japanese. The US did so because the Japanese invaded Mongolia, because the Japanese were allied with Germany, and because the Nazis were rampaging Europe. The plan was to force the Japanese into declaring war on us so that we could then declare war on Japan's allies and enter the war. Japan, however, chose to break international law and attack without formally declaring war in order to prevent our pacific fleet from being able to defend Britain's overseas colonies once we did enter the war. Pearl Harbor was the result of an American attempt to help Britain against a German invasion and a Japanese attempt to prevent the US from having an effect on the war once we entered.

Masi, Japan had annexed Manchuria, not Mongolia. We cut them off from materials to pressure them to stop attacking our ally China. The attack on Pearl Harbor was supposed to be after a declaration of war was delivered by the Japanese but that missed the deadline and the attack went ahead anyhow as it was too late to scrub. That we were using Japan as an excuse to join the fight in Europe smacks of revisionist conspiracy thinking.

Kruggur, the last time an army invaded the USA was a bit over 100 years ago when the Brits burned Washington DC. And a couple of hundred years these days is like a couple of thousand in the past. The Romans occupied most of Britain for about 400 years and civilization was generally static while in my lifetime we've put men in space, even on the moon, and have studied other planets in our solar system from very close. Not to mention advances in medicine.  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Japanese did get a small foothold in Alaska during WW2, but Alaska wasnt part of the US then.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Rat Man on Feb 6th, 2012 at 10:09pm
Alaska was a territory of the United States then.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Knaight on Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:49pm

HurlinThom wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 7:54pm:
Kruggur, the last time an army invaded the USA was a bit over 100 years ago when the Brits burned Washington DC. And a couple of hundred years these days is like a couple of thousand in the past. The Romans occupied most of Britain for about 400 years and civilization was generally static while in my lifetime we've put men in space, even on the moon, and have studied other planets in our solar system from very close. Not to mention advances in medicine.  

The Roman period was not static by any stretch of the imagination. There were vast improvements in architecture, in administration, in engineering, in metallurgy, so on and so forth. Plus, when you consider what trading partners were doing there is even more than that. One could make a case for some level of stasis during the migration period, but that's questionable at best. Once the medieval period was underway, that much is basically gone, and there was an outright industrial revolution using watermills.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Rat Man on Feb 7th, 2012 at 2:29pm

bigkahuna wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 10:07pm:
Today I am a GIANT!!!!!!!!! ;D.............................................................sorry, it's a New York thing.


Though I'm an Eagles fan, I don't hate the Giants.  Right now I'm very fond of them because twice now they prevented those cheating, bush league, classless Patriots from taking the bowl.  WTG, Giants! Thanks!

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by timann on Feb 7th, 2012 at 3:03pm
Am I patriot?  Hmm, I`m not so sure.  The Norway where I was born and grew up was a fine place, where proud and free people was aiming toward a better future.  
The Norway where I live now....well I`m not so sure, after the politicans slipped in all that oil and somehow changed the direction:D
timann

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by kentuckythrower on Feb 8th, 2012 at 9:25am
I'm not sure how to answer this one. As I see it, somewhere along the line it seems as though the U.S. has swapped mules in mid-stream and the values this country were founded on have fallen by the wayside. Our constitution is relatively meaningless anymore as it's now seen as a "living document" subject to a wide range of interpretation rather than being taken for face value. Our politicians appear to be more concerned about themselves rather than actually representing their constituents back home. Our personal liberties are all but non-existent. We have become a nation composed of sheep rather than the wolves our ancestors were known to be. We are told what to do, how to do it, when to do it...and we meekly comply. We are a country in decay. Yes...I am a patriot and I'm madder than hell at the condition this country's in.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Dan on Feb 8th, 2012 at 12:22pm

kentuckythrower wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 9:25am:
I'm not sure how to answer this one. As I see it, somewhere along the line it seems as though the U.S. has swapped mules in mid-stream and the values this country were founded on have fallen by the wayside. Our constitution is relatively meaningless anymore as it's now seen as a "living document" subject to a wide range of interpretation rather than being taken for face value. Our politicians appear to be more concerned about themselves rather than actually representing their constituents back home. Our personal liberties are all but non-existent. We have become a nation composed of sheep rather than the wolves our ancestors were known to be. We are told what to do, how to do it, when to do it...and we meekly comply. We are a country in decay. Yes...I am a patriot and I'm madder than hell at the condition this country's in.


Amen! I'm tired of guys saying that "If you don't like it here, you can leave" and how much better Europe is. When something is messed up, broken, or just wrong, you don't just leave it. You fix it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFAiqxm1FDA

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by perpetualstudent on Feb 9th, 2012 at 12:04pm
An interesting thread. I honestly don't know anymore. America as it was envisioned with liberty and responsibility going hand in hand, the idea that men could and should make their own decisions rather than be governed. That principle, is one I adhere to, but it was also something that was fought over almost immediately upon our inception. The fighting between the federalists who believed that "men must be governed" and the democratic republicans (formerly the anti-federalists) who believed in limited government began almost immediately. In short I'm not naive enough to believe that the ideal American in my head ever actually existed but that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea.

America has its faults to be sure, but the idea that we're somehow worse than the rest of the world I generally disagree with because I don't think it's historically supported. Yes, we avoided WWII for as long as we could. But it was a British PM who waved a piece of paper claiming he had brought "peace in our time" never mind it was at the cost of another nation's existence. Sure we did some despicable things in the Philippines, but need I remind Europe what they did to Africa? Or turkey what they did to the Armenians? Or Rome to Carthage? I'm not trying to be bellicose, merely point out that almost all nations have done horrific things and wonderful things. Governments come and go. Nobility, corruption, stupidity, naivate, Wisdom, misunderstandings, unforseeability compose those Governments. Times change. People trade Liberty and responsibility for comfort and safety. Cicero wrote about the cycles of government, and I think that he was on to something.

Yet patriotism. Supporting your government and trying to shape its growth in a positive way, that is important. Being willing to fight to defend one's country against invaders. I think that is important. And I think there is a remnant of that in me. But family and philosophy trump that for me.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Woonilsra on Feb 9th, 2012 at 8:40pm
kentuckythrower,

The United States Constitution requires change. We can't adhere by ancient (not really ancient) principles that no longer apply to our country.  The Constitution used to allow slavery. It has been changed. The document was created before internet, planes, lasers, and so forth. It has to be updated and interpreted, or we're stuck in an outdated past. So I would oppose your strict interpretation and opt for a looser interpretation.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Woonilsra on Feb 9th, 2012 at 8:43pm
Masi, what are your sources? I've never heard that the U.S. wanted to go into war by tricking the Japanese to attack first. Sounds similar to the Peal Harbor Conspiracy.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by kentuckythrower on Feb 9th, 2012 at 10:04pm
As I see it, the more and more the constitution is interpreted, the further we remove ourselves from the underlying principles upon which this country was founded. I can fully appreciate the need to amend the document from time to time in order to make adjustments for unforseen circumstances, but I cannot tolerate my rights as an individual being stomped on just because the powers that be want to control about every aspect of my life.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Bikewer on Feb 11th, 2012 at 10:45am
Much hinges on your definition of "patriot".     I'm American by accident of birth.  I don't hold any particular love for a piece of geography...  

The principals of the American system, it's Constitution, Bill of Rights, governmental set-up, etc, are much to be admired.  Arguably, they are better than what much of the rest of the world has.

(an aside... I just listened to a program on NPR talking with a historian who notes that while the US Constitution was previously the most-admired and most-copied, this has become considerably less so in recent years...)

Our criminal justice system, for all it's flaws, is still superior to almost anyone else.    

However, I strongly disagree with the "love it or leave it" or "my country right or wrong" crowd.   There are problems; really bad ones.  They need to be addressed, and addressed in a clear-eyed and rational manner.

I don't see where America has to be the "greatest" nation.  The nation with the strongest military and the most-productive industries and all that.  That's just jingoism.   We have to accept that the modern world must learn to be a cooperative place.  
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that viewpoint is all that popular.

Title: Re: Are You a Patriot?
Post by Little on Feb 11th, 2012 at 11:23am
Personally I'd be in some ancient civilization but,  today there are more rights etc...but it twas hard livin back then no question about that;  I still love the good ole US of A,  despite all this fuss between left and right,  I think to myself haahah ahh if only the Greeks were here to see all this non-sense.

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