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Message started by jax on Oct 9th, 2011 at 11:24am

Title: World Standards of Slinging
Post by jax on Oct 9th, 2011 at 11:24am
 Slingers!

Let us all finally come to a consensus and create the definitive guidelines for Worldwide Competition.We have already burned through dozens of topics debating the pros and cons of traditional vs. whatever,so maybe let's not debate the materials used here.Let's try not to focus on style and sling of choice,just the important stuff, ie distance,projectile weight and target size.Not everybody,me included,has access to raw materials and the ability to weave one of the fancy,old world slings.At the same time,not everybody has access to paracord,mower cord,conveyor belts,leather and any other type of new world material.If everyone really wants to go with a set sling length,so be it,but a ten year old is not going to want the same sling length as me,unless he or she was extra tall. ;)

 This Standard would be Open Class.We could also create the World Class,which could restrict the type and length of sling used.

Balaeric Class
World Class
Open Class

 This seems simple to me.All classes should use the same projectile weight and target size.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Masiakasaurus on Oct 9th, 2011 at 11:33am
I like Paleoart's ISAC based system as an standard for anyone to compete using easy to get targets.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 9th, 2011 at 12:07pm
realistically the only things you can - currently - effectively standardise. Are the ranges and target type, I like the balearic targets. Far more suited to slinging that an atlatl target.

To get any kind of official accreditation though you would also have to have standardised slings and ammo.
I'm thinking sand filled squash balls might do the job. Ideal size, don't bounce back and a nice weight. Plus sand and squash balls are available worldwide - even in the states ;-)

Bear in mind that longer slings release nearer the target than short slings. On the other hand they are less accurate.

The natural fibre and throw restrictions the balearics use - I just find daft. It's cultural, but not anything that needs to be adopted by anyone else.

So for a loose score based amateur system. You just standardise the target and shooting distances.

But if you're serious about target slinging becoming a proper sport. Then you HAVE to standardise slings and ammo as well.

For me an aussie pouch with 26 inch cords and a squash ball filled with sand would be both practical and easy to replicate.

Anything else just gets too complicated.
Although jax does make some very good points. So I'll go with the three class system as well.
Although I don't think the balearic sling and style restrictions have any place in a modern slinging competition.
But yeah a fixed sling length class and an open sling class would work easily enough.

If you are actually serious about it. Then standardised targets, ammo and slings are the only things that really matter.
Throw styles, participant classes etc (maybe kids and adults) are ephemeral nonsense and not relevant to anyone who wants to create a sport and not just argue about creating a sport.

 


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dilyan Ganev on Oct 9th, 2011 at 12:29pm
Maybe a groups of sling lenghts like 60-80 and 90-120 cm

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Caldou on Oct 9th, 2011 at 4:00pm
I'll also go with the 3 class system (I can see al least one pro to keep the "Balearic" class : to keep Jaegoor from creating a dissident World standard after spanish people move to Official World Standard ;-))

In the Open class, you can use whatever sling you want, but you keep the target, distance and ammo standardized, is that right ?

So target regulation : Balearic style and size ? But I'm still thinking of an "upgrade" to keep the balls from ricocheting : the use of "catching bags" (I don't know how to explain it clearer... ).
120cm square, with a 50cm circle in the middle, with the center at 160 cm from the ground, are whe OK ?

Distance : 10, 20, 30, 40, 60 meters ?

Ammo weight : sorry Jaegoor, but 250gr is too heavy for most people... I personnaly ask for 100gr +/- 20%.
C_A, how much do your sand filled squash ball weight ?

Standardized Sling : if Aussie doesn't want to change his job into "sling pouch maker", it may be complicated to equip the whole world with Aussie Pouch. And it will be even more complicated once he will retire :P.  
Plus, Aussie would need to sell his pouches if he become the official provider and I don't think it is what he want. (Aussie, if I'm wrong, please correct me ^^ )
So what kind of indestructible fabric/material is avaible worldwide ?

Fix sling length : I'm ok... But my gf is using a 50cm, can she sling in the 60-80cm group ? :p
Another point : in a bow competition, if I want to use a weaker bow when shooting at 90 meters, am I allowed ?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Thunder Chief on Oct 9th, 2011 at 9:50pm
I think fixed sling length would severely limit the people and types of slinging that can be used.  Plus, if it caught on, people would start slinging with the aim of doing well in competition and the wide variety of styles and slings we see now would dwindle.  The same thing has happened in many martial arts that have geared themselves towards competition;  many of the moves they teach would be virtually worthless in a self-defense scenario.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Whipartist on Oct 9th, 2011 at 10:36pm
I totally agree with Thunder Chief.  The most popular martial arts competition is MMA, not Tae Kwon Do or Boxing.  The reason is that MMA is more inclusive and fits better with the martial spirit, which is to win fights.    

I believe slinging competition should avoid becoming too much of a standardized sport which detracts from the interest in the sling as a primative weapon by making it into a mere golf club.

Slings and ammo can't be standardize any more than you can standardize sling technique.  People are all different.  In sports that involve the use of weapons, the varying and diverse technology of the weapons themselves is always part of the sport.  Let's face it, slings will never be anything more than stone age technology, even if we start using teflon coated cradles!  

Compare slinging to archery.  Not every shooter shoots the same exact bow or length or weight of arrow for that matter.  They choose their weapons for the fit they have with their body.  The point is hitting the standardized target to acquire maximum points.  

If slings and ammo become standardized, many expert slingers worldwide would be excluded from participation.  Standardizing is only helpful when creating a sport out of nothing, such as baseball or basketball.  When taking a weapon that is embedded in culture and history and making it into a sport, standardization of the weapon itself must be avoided at all costs.  What if the standardized sling or ammo is not ideal for many would be participants?  I for instance, simply couldn't compete with balearic weight ammo.  I don't mind competing against those who use it.  My ammo is around 1.5-2.5oz but travels at higher velocity then the average Balearic slingers seem to use.  I say as long as you can put that stone on that target with good force, you've got the point.  

Also, using a 100" sling offers no more advantage to a slinger in a competition then a 5" sling does.  It's not as if it reaches further out to the target before release.  The release is always behind the throwing line with any length sling since release is perpendicular to the target.  Let there be freedom with sling length, ammo weight, etc....  

There should be no restrictions upon technique either.  That is not helpful.  All styles should be allowed without any restrictions.  This creates a culture in which the understanding of the sling increases world wide.  If the slingers who use Figure 8's win all the competitions, it won't be long until most slingers try to emulate that technique and continue to perfect it.  This is good as a way to rediscover history and to rediscover this weapon.

So in the interest of preserving the sling as a primative weapon and minimal standardizaton, I believe the Balearic point system and target is good to keep since it's already been in use for a long time.

If the targets, point system, etc, were to be changed I'd suggest two potential changes.

One:  I believe the sling is capable of better than Diana level accuracy and so I believe a small concentration point should be put in the center of the target to reward those capable of hitting it.  The point value for such a hit should be very high.  I suggest a head sized circle or smaller.

Two: In the spirit of the sling as a weapon, I believe the Balearic target should possibly be changed to be made of at least one two two sheets of good cardboard or other uniform penetrable material.  A shot which does not penetrate through the cardboard and fly or fall out the back side of the target, does not count as a point because it did not contain enough power.  The target would of course have to be rotated for every round if this was done. There may be other creative ways to accomplish the same goals, such as energy meters or something like that.  

In Australia in target competitions for whip cracking, they use styrofoam cups.  If the cups aren't cut sliced by the whip, the points are reduced, even if the cup is hit or broken.  

I believe throwing distances should include a round at 40 meters or more as well as shorter distances.  Keeping ranges overly short for all rounds ignores the potential for the longer ranges slings are capable of and it rewards those who put inadequate power into their technique.  

I am interested in the sling as the primative weapon it is.  Accuracy and power at range were the goals of our ancestors and they should be our goals as well.  

I do believe ammo can be standardized in quality if a selection of weights are used.  But I believe the best would be to just keep using well selected stones.

I am opposed to uses of non-weaponized ammo of any weight, just as I wouldn't want to participate in an archery competition that used suction cups on the tips of the arrows.  Slings are primative weapons in which the potentials are as of yet unknown.  Let's not choke out the possibility that free and open competitions might provide to someone who's very skilled the opportunity to influence the future of slinging through the success of their chosen combination of technique, sling and ammo.  

Anyway, my two cents.


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by jax on Oct 10th, 2011 at 10:15pm
Excellent perspective from a Slinging.org legend!You've been here before I was lurking,Whipartist.The topic has come up so many times that I felt we could do something to unify things,but if others believe as you that it will alter the historical relevance by standardizing the format,and the essence of the sling as a piece of military antiquity may be lost in translation,then let's leave it alone.

I,for one,primarily sling spherical items in an environment free from spectators,fellow slingers and the public in general,so it would not be a big loss for me to not have some standards to go by should I choose to hurl at a brass or cardboard target with rocks of a certain weight at a tournament.Know what I'm saying?On the other hand,if I had a group of friends all together,it would be easy to say,"Here are the guidelines.". Horseshoes have  rules,cards,Jarts,whatever game you are playing has rules if it's a game with a winner and a loser.

 Brett

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Whipartist on Oct 11th, 2011 at 1:49am
Jax,

Thanks for the really swell compliment.  I'm back at slinging now that I have a much better place to practice in than I ever have before.  But I haven't been on slinging.org for a number of years now.  I hope I wasn't too strong in my stance, as I do understand what you are saying and think it's a noble aim some day.  

I think there is just a lot of potential for discovery with slings to come if we are creative and open minded.  It's not just endless practice but a development of technique and technical principles which work.  We haven't written the final word yet.  The accuracy potential is not being tapped yet in my opinion.  I believe this from historical accounts, and also from days when I myself am hitting my mark and can't understand what it is I'm doing right.  

I'd like to see these discoveries occur world wide, and not be hindered by institutionalization in the form of a sport that sets rules before we know what those rules should be.  I tend to be skeptical towards all organized human institutions; but I'll leave off with that instead of getting into political philosophy.

Back to slinging.  Maybe this isn't the thread for this discussion but I find it interesting that much ancient sling ammo found by archaeologists at many sights, weighs only about 25 grams average, ranging from about 19 grams to 40 grams.  About 1 up to almost 2 oz.  I have tended to have a preference for ammo weighing at least 50 to 80 grams myself.  

I have always wondered for some years why this ammo is so light in weight?  I presently think that this is a reflection on ancient slinging techniques being different than modern slinging techniques in which heavier ammo is a preference.  My own experiments seem to also be reflecting this and my technique is slowly evolving to prefer lighter ammo.  I'd like to start trying ammo in this weight range more extensively and see what it does for my accuracy.

Anyway maybe I'll start another thread on this.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Fundibularius on Oct 11th, 2011 at 2:56am
Why not wait until after the encounter in Mallorca at the end of this month?

It will probably be the first real international meeting of slingers in the world and I'm sure that the participants will return filled with inspiration and new ideas about standards, sizes, rules etc. And all of it based on practice.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Oct 11th, 2011 at 4:43pm
As others said leave the slings and styles up to the slinger. As far as ammo I personally could use rocks or just about anything but there is so much variety from rock to rock that it could determin a bulls eye or a complete miss. Distance I would suggest between 10 and 20yards/paces and the distance most be stated with the scores.

The only thing I would limit is lead ammo as it has quite a significant advantge over most any kind of other ammo.

I like the Baleric target demnisons but who is to say it has to be made of plywood and steel. Why not an old (double thickness) bed sheet, XXL T shirt, a few punky logs, or a few pieces of cardboard cut to size and with a big circle spray painted in the middle. For begginers you could even have the target 2-3 times the size to catch ammo and just have a cirlcle and square on the target.

Any way that is my main suggestions, looking forward to the end reasults of this thread.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Greenman on Oct 12th, 2011 at 1:13pm
FOR MYSELF, I think Slinging as a sport would be fantastic. But. I don't get most of the standards and arguments.

I am not the be-all-and-end-all of Slingers. I understand the argument for standardised equipment, including ammo type, size and weigth, AND pre-determined distances (20m, 30m etc.) but each Slinger has his or her own style of throwing and this includes sling length.

By all means, have 1 or 2 types of cord and 2 or 3 pouch materials, but you cannot limit either throwing style or sling length. This should be up to the ahlete and whatever governing body would control this should understand and respect this aspect that is UNIQUE to the art of Slinging.

As for target size, I like a universal target that is the size of an enemy soldiers' chest. More or less 60cm high and 40cm wide. Then i aim for a center mass shot. Practical (maybe historical). For a Slinger.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Rat Man on Oct 12th, 2011 at 7:47pm
  Slinging is a very individualistic sport.  Also, there aren't very many slingers.  So why alienate any?  By standardizing ammo materials and weights, sling materials and lengths, and styles we would do just that.  Yes, do have a standard target.  The Balearic target seems as good and sensible as any to me.  Of course you'd have to have standard distances.  But once you start omitting certain sling materials and lengths, ammo types or weights, or slinging styles you start omitting people which there aren't enough of anyway.  
  So obviously my idea is to have a standard target and set ranges.  Use any sling, style, or ammo you choose to hit the target.  

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by longwinger on Oct 13th, 2011 at 7:02am
For competition, make three classes:

Beginner or third class

Intermediate or second class

Master or first class

Standard targets

Standard distance

No other restrictions

as competition gets underway, the slings and ammo will evolve following what scores the highest, it will only improve slinging.
Targets I feel should be along the same concept as pistol silloutte shooting, a free standing target that must be knocked down for a hit to count
Distance to be same for each class
Everyone starts as a beginner, 10 throws (just a random number)
After hitting 1-3 targets in two competitions, move up to next class
4-6 hits for intermediate and 7-10 masters.
Oscar

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 13th, 2011 at 1:25pm

Quote:
I am opposed to uses of non-weaponized ammo of any weight, just as I wouldn't want to participate in an archery competition that used suction cups on the tips of the arrows.  Slings are primative weapons in which the potentials are as of yet unknown.  Let's not choke out the possibility that free and open competitions might provide to someone who's very skilled the opportunity to influence the future of slinging through the success of their chosen combination of technique, sling and ammo.  


lol right where to start ?

Okay:-
         1) anything thrown from a sling can be classified as a weapon if it is aimed at a person or animal.
My ammo choice is pretty much just a high velocity slung shot. And slung shots are banned/illegal to carry weapons in just about every civilised country in the world (it's a leather sap filled with lead shot). Mine is a soft rubber ball filled with sand. just as nasty if it hit you.

2) slings are TOOLS. The vast majority of todays working slings are used by herders to direct sheep/alpacas/llamas etc. It's a tool for throwing things - not exclusively a weapon for attacking things.

3) standardised competitions are not the forum for testing out ammo/sling/style combinations. They are however the place to gather slingers who can mess around with experimental stuff on the fringes of the competition.  

4) the potentials of slings are not just completely known, they've been reduced to calculations on this forum alone - more times than even I can remember.

And finally most of you have failed completely to understand the purpose and point of this discussion.

1) we would like a form of slinging competition that is capable of being ratified by world sporting authorities.

2) to do this we HAVE TO HAVE standardised equipment so that competitions held around the world can be at the same standards, use the same rules and must use the same equipment - EXACTLY LIKE EVERY OTHER WORLDWIDE RECOGNISED SPORT.

3) once you have the standardised and easy to reproduce system you can add more esoteric categories. BUT you need to have the reproduceable sport first.

4) you cannot use hand braided or woven cords or pouches as each person will braid slightly differently - different tensions will create variations in sling performance. Likewise stones and rocks are not uniform.
So a standardised pouch design and cord type is essential. I think individual methods of retention and release cord ends would be acceptable. As would a slight variation in cord length. say - 24 - 34 inches.

I'll fill a couple of squash balls with sand tomorrow and see what they weigh.
But size wise they are ideal, with sand in they will not bounce (important for safety concerns)
and should be around the 2-3 oz mark - though they actually feel heavier. weird.

It doesn't seem to sink in very well so I'll say it again.

This discussion is about creating a viable form of target slinging that would be capable of recognition by official sporting bodies. So must follow the same rules and regulations as existing sports. ALL of which have standardised targets and equipment.

It's not for creating a 'use what you like' slinging club style competition.

If you think about it - people are pretty much introduced to sports and martial arts through the standardised competitions.

Enthusiasts can then take it further and find out the background of the sport and sometimes take up other - non-official forms of that particular sport.

One of the reasons slings and slinging have almost died out in the west is because no such standard form of the sport yet exists outside of the balearic islands.
And that has user unfirendly restrictions that don't need to be replicated.

Even the die hard 'if my sling don't  kill stuff, I don't want to use it'  brigade ought to understand that a visible and easy to access 'sanitised' version of slinging, can only attract more of the 'league of doom' slingers to the sport.

To become popular or known a sport has to have a branch that is in the public eye. That is what we want to create. The publicly accessible version of sling usage.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Masiakasaurus on Oct 13th, 2011 at 1:45pm
We should have 2 recognizable categories of slinging, in that case. Sporting and Historical.

For sport, split pouch slings should be 4 to 5 oz. vegetable tanned leather with straps that cross each other, and I suggest using the same dimensions as Aussie's conveyor belt sling pouches. He's already done the work for us. I do suggest reinforcing the pouch with metal grommets where the cords attach to the pouch, to prevent the sling from ripping during competition. Length of the sling should be limited to 1.2 meters folded in half. I don't really see any point in limiting how the sling cords are attached to the pouch or the material they should be made of, but paracord is pretty convenient and should be in the running if others want to regulate cord material. Use the FBTF target dimension (1.2 meters square with 0.5 meter bullseye) and have set distances of 10, 20, and 30 meters.

For Historical, just use the FBTF rules and limit the slings to being made of natural materials, also with a 1.2 meter maximum length.

This is basically the same set-up as sport vs. renaissance fencing.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by jax on Oct 13th, 2011 at 9:36pm
 Masiakasarus,

  Huh?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Rat Man on Oct 14th, 2011 at 12:14am
 I've often said that slinging reminds me of bowling in many ways.
  It's all about shooting at a target utilizing perfect form, with the least little variance causing your accuracy to fall into the hopper.  Bowling is an internationally sanctioned, very popular sport.  Yet it allows for much variation in styles and equipment.  Only the target and the distance are standard.
  Let's start with the ball.  I can weigh anywhere from sixteen down to, I believe, six pounds.  The only reason the range isn't wider is the ball return equipment couldn't handle it.  I can be made of a number of different materials and combinations of materials, from rock hard plastic balls that slip slide down the lane and don't hook much at all to highly reactive surface balls that dig in right away.  The core varies greatly.  Popular now is the block core which keeps the ball from deflecting much when it hits the pins.  You can get balls with solid cores if you prefer.  You can have your ball drilled any number of ways.  Most prefer full fingertip, but there's also semi-fingertip and conventional (ugh) grip.  There's even a five fingered ball.  I am allowed to throw the ball using any number of styles.  I can throw a hook, back up, or straight ball.  I can throw it without putting my thumb in the hole or I can even hurl it using two hands if I wish.  
  So a popular internationally sanctioned sport doesn't have to have a lot of restrictive, stifling rules.  I'm 6'4" with very long arms. It makes no more sense for me to use the same length sling in competition against someone 4'9" than it does for me to use a ten pound ball when bowling against a 5'2" woman or for her to use a sixteen pound ball.  
   By limiting what materials can be used for slings and ammo you're completely stifling any advancement in the technology of the sport.  What wins tournaments should be what becomes the standard, as it is in bowling.  
   Do we really want to emulate the Balearic slingers?  Look at how wildly popular that is... not.   By omitting certain styles, sling lengths, types of ammo, sling materials, etc.. we will be omitting prospective slingers.  I would personally have no interest what so ever in a format with a lot of tight rules doing away with anything that is innovative about the sport.
  I say set up a poll and put it to a vote!

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by xxkid123 on Oct 14th, 2011 at 12:27am
i agree with ratman, there's no point in regulating certain areas of it. although it looks good to be all dressed the same using similar slings slinging the same way like some highly drilled squad of elite slingers, think of the reality. everything tends to look better on the parade ground and on paper, but in reality it's nothing more than restriction after restriction.

i would not mind having divisions set up for different target distances and objectives- one division might be or a Balearic target at 30 yards, and another might be for distance, number of stones up in the air at one time (speed shooting) etc.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by longwinger on Oct 14th, 2011 at 7:44am
I think the only hope of getting this off the ground is to make it fun and simple.
Who will be participating?
An extremely wide variety of people, with wide variety of resources, (slings and ammo).
Golf balls, tennis balls, cast lead glands, river rock, sand filled leather bags, etc., if restricted to any one item, it will alienate many.
Sling length and contruction will also vary widely and cannot be standardized at this level.
The only controllable variable is target and distance, to get maximum participation.
This is how systems evolve and improve is thru competition, whatever works will be copied and improved upon.
Too much control will be the reason for lack of particpation.
Good luck,
Oscar

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by The Cord Age on Oct 14th, 2011 at 7:55am
I think we should be careful to draw a distinction between things which look standardized, simply because everyone chooses to use the same thing, and things which actually are standardized by rules. The rules governing bats in cricket, for example, are surprisingly loose -- which you'd never know if you looked at a 'normal' set of bats for a team (they look nigh-on identical).

I went and looked up the equivalent rules for archery, regulated by FITA, as used for the Olympics and World Championships. They are surprisingly 'open' as well. Here are the sections governing bows and arrows for 'indoor target', 'outdoor target' and 'field' archery.

Note that:

1.) I've only included the rules for 'recurve' and 'normal' bows here in order to save space; there are also rules permitting compound bows (in both target and field archery) and longbows (in field archery). That is: the set of allowed bows is even larger than is implied here.

2.) There are more rules than printed here, but they nearly all govern things like stabilizers, sights, and finger protection. 99% of the rules that govern the bow and arrows themselves are below.

3.) Many of the rules are similar or the same between disciplines.

4.) While the regulations frequently put limits on the size of items allowed, they very rarely mention, let alone govern, the use of specific materials.


Quote:
Outdoor Target Archery
http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/05%20Rules/01%20C&R%20Book/Book%202010/2010_Book2_NEW.pdf

Bow

7.3.1.1 A bow of any type provided it subscribes to the accepted principle and meaning of the word bow as used in target archery, that is, an instrument consisting of a handle (grip), riser (no shoot-through type) and 2 flexible limbs each ending in a tip with a string nock. The bow is braced for use by a single string attached directly between the 2 string nocks, and in operation is held in 1 hand by its handle (grip) while the fingers of the other hand draw, hold back and release the string.

7.3.1.1.1 Multi-coloured bow risers and trademarks located on the inside of the upper and lower limb are permitted.

7.3.1.1.2 Risers including a brace are permitted provided the brace does not consistently touch the athlete’s hand or wrist.

7.3.2.1 The bow will be of a simple design, either a take-apart type (with wooden or metal riser) or of one-piece construction. In both types of bow the limbs will be of
wooden and/or fibreglass construction.

Arrows

7.3.1.7 Arrows of any type may be used provided they subscribe to the accepted principle and meaning of the word arrow as used in target archery, and that the arrows do not cause undue damage to target faces or butts.

7.3.1.7.1 An arrow consists of a shaft with head (point) nock, fletching and, if desired, cresting. The maximum diameter of arrow shafts will not exceed 9.3mm, the heads (points) for these arrows may
have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm. All arrows of every athlete must be marked with the athlete's name or initials on the shaft. All arrows used in any end shall be identical and will carry the same pattern and colour(s) of fletching, nocks and cresting, if any.



Quote:
Indoor Target Archery
http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/05%20Rules/01%20C&R%20Book/Book%202010/2010_Book3_NEW.pdf

Bow

8.3.1.1 A bow of any type provided it subscribes to the accepted principle and meaning of the word bow as used in target archery, that is, an instrument consisting of a handle (grip), riser (no shoot-through type) and 2 flexible limbs each ending in a tip with a string nock. The bow is braced for use by a single string attached directly between the 2 string nocks, and in operation is held in 1 hand by its handle (grip) while the fingers of the other hand draw, hold back and release the string.

8.3.1.1.1 Multi-coloured bow risers and trademarks located on the inside of the upper and lower limb are permitted.

8.3.1.1.2 Risers including a brace are permitted provided the brace does not consistently touch the athlete’s hand or wrist.

Arrows

8.3.1.7 Arrows of any type may be used provided they subscribe to the accepted principle and meaning of the word arrow as used in target archery, and that the arrows do not cause undue damage to target faces or butts.

8.3.1.7.1 An arrow consists of a shaft with head (point) nock, fletching and, if desired, cresting. The maximum diameter of arrow shafts will not exceed 9.3mm; the heads (points) for these arrows may
have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm. All arrows of every athlete must be marked with the athlete's name or initials on the shaft. All arrows used at any end shall be identical and will carry the same pattern and colour(s) of fletching, nocks and cresting, if any.



Quote:
Field Archery
http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/05%20Rules/01%20C&R%20Book/Book%202010/2010_Book4_NEW.pdf

Bow

9.3.1.1 A bow of any type provided it subscribes to the accepted principle and meaning of the word ‘bow’ as used in target archery, that is, an instrument consisting of a handle (grip), riser (no shoot-through types are permitted) and 2 flexible limbs each ending in a tip with a string nock. The bow is braced for use by a single string attached directly between the 2 string nocks, and in operation is held in 1 hand by its handle (grip) while the fingers of the other hand draw, hold back and release the string.

9.3.1.1.1 Multi-coloured bow risers, and trademarks located on the inside of the upper and lower limb are permitted.

9.3.1.1.2 Recurve: Risers including a brace are permitted provided the brace does not consistently touch the athlete’s hand or wrist.

Arrows

9.3.7.1 Arrows of any type may be used provided they subscribe to the accepted principle and meaning of the word ‘arrow’ as used in target archery, and that such arrows do not cause undue damage to target faces or buttresses.

9.3.7.1.1 The maximum diameter of an arrow shaft will not exceed 9.3mm, the point for these arrows may have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm. An arrow consists of a shaft with head (point), nock,
fletching and, if desired, cresting. All arrows of every athlete will be marked with the athlete's name or initials on the shaft. All arrows used in any one end shall be identical and will carry the same pattern and colour(s) of fletching, nocks and cresting, if any.


Surprisingly open, no?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Paleoarts on Oct 15th, 2011 at 11:23am
first off, thanks Masiaka for the nod.

i have to agree with Whipartist and Ratman, among others. putting restrictions on sling types and styles and ammo is just silly. for my other favorite primitive weapon, the atlatl, we've had a world wide competition in place for decades called the ISAC which stands for International Standard Accuracy Competition. it involves a standardized target at two set distances and a set of rules governing conduct and scoring and that's it. any and all variations of equipment are allowed. the great thing about ISAC's is that it can be performed by anyone anywhere simply by purchasing or crafting an ISAC target.

i felt it was such a good model that i came up with a version for slinging. it utilized plastic containers as targets (and not the paper atlatl targets as Curious_Aardvark stated above. in fact, the atlatl ISAC target and the Baeleric sling target are very similar to each other in size and form where my ISAC for sling are not)  because i felt these were 1. easy to obtain by anyone. 2. were highly mobile and durable. and 3. because they represented better than the Baeleric target what slinging was meant for i.e hitting small ground based targets such as animals.

i'm not opposed to another format, even the Baeleric model, but i would be highly opposed to anything that limited the sling type, style, or ammo. a standard target, set distances, format and rules, and scoring are all that is needed i believe.

Chris

p.s. i tried to do a search for that old ISAC for slinging thread and couldn't find it. anyone got it?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Rat Man on Oct 16th, 2011 at 3:42pm
I'd like to add one thing that I forgot to my previous post.  There are nine different oil patterns (ways to place oil on the lane) accepted on the professional bowlers tour.
http://www.pba.com/OilPatterns/

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 17th, 2011 at 7:52am
lots of good points - and all from the point of view of practicing slingers.

And this is not necessarily a good thing because we know what kind of slings and ammo we all like and prefer.

From the point of view of a complete new comer, attending an unlimited sling & ammo competition would be completely bewildering.
Every competitor would tell them to make buy or use completely different ammo and slings.
They'd be told that longer is better and that shorter is better, that natural cords are better than manmade and that manmade is better than natural.
They'd be told that heavy ammo is better than light, and that lighter ammo is better than heavy. That sperical rocks are best and that ovoid rocks are best.
That fig 8 is dangerous and useless (jaegoor ;) )and that helicopter is inaccurate and rubbish (me  ;) )
They'd be told that you should only use lethal ammo and that non-lethal ammo is best.
That split pouches rock and that solid pouches suck, and that spilt spouches suck and that solid pouches rule.
In short: a completely bewildering and contradictory mass of information that is going to do nothing but confuse and dissuade someone from having a go.

Yes it might be easier for existing slingers - and I feel I'm just banging my head against a brick wall here - but the main purpose of a standardised slinging competition  is TO ATTRACT NEW PEOPLE TO THE SPORT (when we have an actual sport, that is) and to creat an actual sport that can be practiced worldwide with the same set of easy to make kit.

If they can troll, up watch a bunch of people slinging the same ammo with similiar looking slings, which they will be able to purchase or be given. it is massively more likely that they will have a go or even join a club or league.
Sure everyone they meet will tell them that different techniques are best. But that's all they'll have to consider.
Everything else will make sense.

Once they can sling, THEN is the time to start exploring the variety, history and usages of slings.

And paleo, slings were not exclusively or even mainly, meant for killing small animals.
They have been used for war against people, hunting large animals, herding animals, hunting birds etc

I'll repeat a sling is A TOOL. How it is used is up the individual using it.

As far as pouches go.
Look, aussie created a versatile, durable, easy to replicate, weather proof,  multi usage sling pouch that has been used and tested all over the world for over 3 years.
It is the ONLY such pouch in existence.
Used conveyor belt material can be had - I suspect for free - simply by contacting local companies and asking.

I just do not see any point in reinventing the wheel.

Standardised ammunition makes it easier to practice, gives your slinging consistent results and is going to make more sense and be more attractive to the newcomer.

How hard can it be to accept that we standardise three things: pouch, ammo, target ? (unbelievably hard from where I'm sitting lol)
That is essentially all we need to do to create a sport that is accessible to non-slingers and existing slingers in equal measure.

With the same three pieces of equipment - you can create lots of different competition types and scoring systems. But as long as everyone used the same pouches, targets and ammo - any scoring system can be used worldwide.

K.I.S
Keep It Simple

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Rat Man on Oct 18th, 2011 at 12:09am
  I believe that we're all in agreement that a standard target and standard distances make sense.  Why not have two classes.  Do one your way, with a standard pouch and ammo and run it side by side with an unlimited class like some of us have suggested, where just the target and distances are standard.   The standardized class would be less confusing to and easier for beginner slingers.  The unlimited class might be more fun and interesting for more experienced slingers.  I'd probably try my luck in both classes.
   

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Paleoarts on Oct 18th, 2011 at 2:34am
not a bad compromise, Ratman. i'd go along with that if it was the consensus, but i would like to address one of C_A's points. he states that newcomers would be cofused about what to use and would be told many different things by every individual. possibly. but i think they would recieve the same answers that most newbies get here which is "experiment for yourself and find what works for you". i believe that if they're interested enough in slinging then they'll embark on the same journey the rest of us have taken and figure it out for themselves, with some suggestions along the way from those in the know of course.

i can almost garauntee you one thing. that if given the choice between an open class (where you can use what you want, how you want) and a standardized class (where you're required to use gear or ammo you might not like) then the line for latter will be much shorter. i'm just saying.



oh, and C_A, i din't say 'hunting', i said 'hitting' small animals by which i meant human sized and down. anyways that wasn't even my point. the three targets i used encompassed one about the size of a mans torso down to one about the size of a modest bird. i just  felt that was a pretty good representation of the type of skill we should try and acheive as slingers, much more so than the barn door like target that the Baelerics use.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 19th, 2011 at 7:40am
actually the main problem with your targets paleo is that gallon plastic milk containers are different shapes and sizes the world over. Also us gallons are 1/3 smaller than uk gallons.
It is - unfortunately not a global standard. And yes I checked the ones we get in england. Milk IS sold in 3.5 litre containers (us gallon) but they are not the same shape as the us ones.
They are taller, flatter and wider  in profile than the squarer ones you get in the states.

I know that the vast majority of americans apply the word 'world' solely to the states.
And given that 90% ofamericans will never hold apassport or travel beyond the us borders - it's easy to understand why this happens.

But slinging is a world wide sport and if we want to create a world wide competition system - then all you yanks need to start thinking global not local.  

A measured and simple to construct target like the balearic one makes more sense.

And yes there would be a line at the open class - but once again you're completely missing the point - to be honest if you haven't grasped the simplicity of it by now - I don't think most of you will ever get it.

People who have never slung before will go for the standard class. Because it takes the confusion and plethora of choices out of the game. and reduces the sport to skill with standard equipment and rules out the chance that different slings and ammo might give you a better or worse chance.
People setting up clubs can use the standard class without worrying wbout sling, ammo or target types.
Setting up a club or local competition would be quick, easy and uncomplicated.

Given the complete lack of any such clubs or competitions (outside of spain) it's fairly obvious that if you put 2 slingers in a room and tell them to have acompetition, they'll both immediately come up with different ideas and standards.
And that's why a universal system is needed. IT's not for existing experienced and opionated slingers - IT'S FOR EVERYONE ELSE.

And I think I'm probably done in this discussion. I can't think of any simpler or easier or more common sense ways to explain what is blindingly obvious.  
It'll make more sense for me to just go ahead and start a system off than spend all my time arguing with people who can't see the point of it.  

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dilyan Ganev on Oct 19th, 2011 at 9:27am
As for the target why not use something made of micarta. It is known worldwide(at least in the Americas and Europe). What do you think of target with cross section like that one?(ok maybe not with that many layers...)
cross_section_of_targer.JPG (10 KB | )

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Paleoarts on Oct 19th, 2011 at 12:30pm
come on, C_A, no need to insult us yanks. i fully realize we're trying to make this global (and i have traveled extensively, by the way) so let's use metric measures. 20l, 4l and 1l. in my original post i even think i suggested that. the exact sizes of the targets are irrelevant. the important thing is that plastic containers are widely AVAILABLE. they are easy to obtain by virtually everyone world wide. i don't think the same can be said for the Baeleric target. the other benefits are mobility, durability, and replacability. also, no construction is needed.  so, if your argument for standardization is to encourage the most begginers into the sport then i think this is a better model, but we can agree to disagree forever on that point.

as to the standardization of slings and ammo i would still have to say that i'm fully against it. i think it flies in the face of what slinging is all about. i personally quit competitive archery years ago for this very reason. some people, mostly those just starting out, may be attracted to uniform equipment like you say, but i'm betting that the majority of us out there would rail about being told what we can and cannot use. there is also the problem of how these newcomers are going to obtain these standardized slings and ammo? are they expected to buy them or make them themselves? not everyone is capable of buying or crafting uniform ammo, but just about anyone can pick a rock up off the ground. don't have rocks where you are? no problem, just use whatever is at hand. the point being that if you limit what you can use, you automatically limit the number of people that can be involved. i just think you'll get more folks into competitive slinging if they're allowed to sling how and with what they want.

now, if you would consider a compromise, say a range of sling lengths and a range of ammo weights, then that is something i feel would be fair and more in the spirit of our sport and something i would consider participating in. what do you think?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 19th, 2011 at 12:59pm
Genuinely No insult intended. Just saying how it is for the vast majority of americans. They never travel abroad - because they don't need to.
And again I'm not talking about the tiny number of people who already sling - I'd like to try and reach the humoungous number who have never even heard of a sling.

Right, sling lengths - no problem with different ones. but a min and max length just makes sense. cord type - again not important.

pouches - can  be made and supplied by the organisation - whatever it turns out to be. Or made from a supplied spec and cutting template
And with them standardised if you travel to a different area or country, you'll still be using the same kit. Which makes life much easier if you haven't got a sling already.

targets likewise. and the size and shape - again needs to be standardised.

I'll be working out a design kit in the near future.
think I've got it down to 6 bits of wood, four bolts and either a metal disc or a plastic disc and a few rubber washers, glue and a few wood screws. A saw, a drill and screwdriver and pliers will be the only tools needed.

The 'organisation' can supply everything except the wood and disc as a kit with full instructions.

Haven't tested the sand filled squash balls yet. but again, they can easily be made onsite by anyone. squash is played worldwide. and squash balls wear out regularly. So talking to the local squash league or club  and paying a few pence for worn out balls should be doable.
I've ruled out golf balls for 3 reasons.
1) they richochet like bastards. very dangerous.
2) they are slightly larger and lighter as well as being less dense than the sand filled squash balls.
3) sand filled squash balls do not bounce back. feel ideal in the hand, are very durable and extremely easy to make.

I've also worked out a way to make the original aussie pouches with the central stitches. But using very small cable ties instead of stitching. Makes it a lot faster and easier and produces a much more durable pouch. Than the ones without central reinforcement.

And again we can supply templates so these can be made from any conveyor belt material - which is - again - universally available and standardised.

It's all about being able to reproduce the exact same kit whever you are in the world for the standard competition. For very little outlay.

If you look at the sports that have spread around the world they are universally capable of being undertaken with minimal equipment. So that's fairly important.
Keeo it cheap, simple and easy to accurately replicate.

As far as the open comp goes - target is the same - everything else can be down to the individual.  

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Jaegoor on Oct 20th, 2011 at 10:21am
I do not understand the excitement. There is already a very good standardised aim. The Balearic.

How many would of them it hit with 20 shots more than 5x???? On 20 m of distance.

If one wanted one can also make aims for the hunting. I recommend aims from metal. These should tip over with a hit.

On this metal of aims one can stick on pictures. Hare, Wolf, roe deer zb.

One must not invent the wheel once again. There is already a very good system.



Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by longwinger on Oct 21st, 2011 at 7:42am
For a person serious about slinging competition, prior to an event, he/she would set up their own target range and practice. I can't imagine traveling any distance at all and not having a feel for what I would be doing.

For world wide competition, it will have to be done on the honor system, everyone sets up their own range and target, no restrictions on sling, cords, pouch, or projectile.

Report your results, description of your weapon/sling, describe ammo, anounce who is best, and what worked best.

How far would you travel for competion?

If there is not enough interest to compete on this level, how would more restrictions and travel to competion site make it more attractive to anyone?

Oscar

I do not understand the excitement. There is already a very good standardised aim. The Balearic.

How many would of them it hit with 20 shots more than 5x???? On 20 m of distance.

If one wanted one can also make aims for the hunting. I recommend aims from metal. These should tip over with a hit.

On this metal of aims one can stick on pictures. Hare, Wolf, roe deer zb.

One must not invent the wheel once again. There is already a very good system.


[/quote]

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Oct 22nd, 2011 at 7:16pm
I have to echo Whip Artist, Rat Man and Paleo et al...

Telling people what type, length of sling, how many times they have to rotate the sling etc is just limiting for no good reason that I can see. If one type of slinging style is dominating then people will either learn that style to compete with or they will just have to get better with their chosen style.

As far as being stuck using the Balearic target...no thanks.  I strongly agree with Whip Artist in that sense. No one on this forum or on youtube have even come close to tapping the limits of sling accuracy. We have all different levels of skill on this forum and on youtube but not a single master among either of those sites. They are out there, they just have better things to do than dink around on the 'net...
And the Balearic target really limits one's growth in that area IMO. The larger your target, the more things you can do wrong and still hit it. I do not sling at a Balearic target for the same reason I don't use my father-in-law's barn for a target. 'Nuff said.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Aussie on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 2:04am
Even though I don't use one I like the concept of the Balearic target. The auditory feedback of "clang", "thud" or nothing makes scoring easy and unambiguous. And if I was ever to get good enough to where I was hearing only clangs I could then reduce the size of the centre ring.

Anyway, the difficulty in having a World Standard Competition is not going to be deciding on the rules, it's going to be getting enough people interested to even have a competition.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by timann on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 8:57am
I`d like the target to be like the balearic, but with a smaller bullseye in the middle(making a third sound, I guess).

In this day and age, I think the number of people willing to participate in a sport where it may take months and years to be reasonably good, is tiny- and dwindling.

No, leave the slinging to the few, odd individuals that is backward enough to bother with it, is what I think:D
timann

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 11:19am
FWIW, as I'm rereading the above post it sounds a bit harsh. To clarify a bit, I like the idea of audible sounds for hits. I even like the overall style of the target, I just don't like the size.

I guess the idea of having a third center ring would solve the problem fairly easily though.  

I agree in that the main issue would be getting enough people interested. I have always felt that the slinging community would advance in overall skill much more quickly if there was a group of avid slingers to sling with and learn from each other first hand.


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 12:21pm
and one of the reasons people are not interested is because there IS NOT an easily accessible form of slinging for anyone to see and decide to try.

It's the entire point of this thread.
As I've been trying to explain to the slinging.org members, on and off, for over 6 years.

I suspect that people who join slinging.org are never going to agree on anything. We're that kind of crowd.

I'll be teaching a bunch of kids next year - so I'll roll out my system then.
If a thing is already a done deed, it's soo much easier to get other people to adopt it.
And if they've never slung before they'll accept it without any hassle.

So my only concern regarding this thread is whether anyone can come up with a better standard form of ammo than I already have. I'm decided on my target and sling pouch: balearic and aussie.
But if anyone can work out how to produce identical, safe and well sized and weighted ammo around the world that's easier than a squash ball filled with sand. Please let me know.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Aussie on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 5:49pm
Further to your sand filled squash ball, the idea sounds great but how big a hole did you have to cut to get the sand in there and how did you seal it later? Does the ball rupture when it hits something hard?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dilyan Ganev on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 6:26pm
i suggest using Jaegoors rusty balls(footbags) Balloons are known everywhere in the world...

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by jax on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 11:35pm
CA,

 The vast majority of Limeys are not on slinging dot org,the same for the vast majority of yanks.Think about it for a minute.

Paleo,

 We cannot have a world standard revolve around a plastic jug,that seems silly.To me....

Let us try again to create a standard for distance,target and weight.

Is anything else really required?

 Brett

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 24th, 2011 at 7:02am
jax - that's pretty much my point - the vast majority of people have no knowlege of the sling. And until there is a publicly accessible form of the sport - they never will.
I think I've explained this seven ways to sunday in as many one syllable words as I can thinik of over the last 6 years.

I've decided on oatarget, pouch and ammo - until something better comes along. So I'm - personally -  done in that respect.

Aussie.
I guess about half - 2/3 of an inch incision. The rubber on squash balls is very thick, so you need something that is long enough to give you a small hole when you squish the cut.
I filled it with a piece of paper rolled into a funnel and sand from the big pile at the golfcourse meant for the bunkers.

I selaed it with some new glue stuff that I got from poundland. It sets to form a flexible, transparent  rubber seal. I used enough so that the rubber seal is on both the inside and outside of the incision.
You need to leave it a couple of days for the rubber to completely set.

Haven't slung these yet but I can squeeze them as hard as I like and the seal just flexes.

Hang on I'll go sling one at the wall a few times....

Holy crap that's a good seal !
Well about 20 hard throws at a brick wall from about 8 feet. It just about rolls back to my feet.
The seal is untouched and actually looks more durable than the rubber itself.
Got a little worried when it was covered in sand - but turned out that was just mortar I was knocking out from between the bricks ;)
Fantastic ammo to sling as well.  

So yeah I'm happy with that.
Given that target slinging is always low power and arced, these balls will most probably last for ever - or until lost.

The glue type is: 3-trimethoxysilyl propyl ethylene diamine. It has a common name that is used in different brands of the same stuff. That I can't remember as it's not used on the tube itself and I binned the packaging a while ago.
Found some on ebay - the words to look out for are: MS Polymer glue. (probably the methoxysilyl part)

Quote:
Fantastic Elastic Flexible Glue

Produces a unique flexible bond and seal

Can be used on metal, glass, ceramics, mirror, plastics, wood, leather, vinyl and fabrics

Uses MS Polymer technology to create a flexible bond

Highly resistant to shock impact, water and extreme temperatures


But that small tube would be sufficient for about 20-30 squash balls. next time I spot it in a pound shop I'll fill my basket :-). I'll probably use it to glue the conveyor belt as well if I can get enough of it.
It's pretty good for lots of other things as well.
The pic below shows the glue and the sealed part of the ball I was just slinging at the wall.
The slinging took the shine off the glued area and you probably wouldn't see it if you weren't looking for it.
But it looks to be at least as strong as the rest of the ball.
sealed_squash_ball_693x768.jpg (64 KB | )

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Fundibularius on Oct 24th, 2011 at 9:46am

Morphy wrote on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 11:19am:
And the Balearic target really limits one's growth in that area IMO. The larger your target, the more things you can do wrong and still hit it. I do not sling at a Balearic target for the same reason I don't use my father-in-law's barn for a target.

I guess the idea of having a third center ring would solve the problem fairly easily though.  


What about increasing your own distance to the target?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Masiakasaurus on Oct 24th, 2011 at 11:34am
How about raquet balls injected with rubber epoxy? You'd end up with a slightly heavy solid rubber ball about the same size as a squash ball, but with a turkey baster sized hole instead of an incision.

Or better yet, google search for "solid rubber dog ball." No modification required, and I bet they will fly as far as your squash balls.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Oct 24th, 2011 at 2:01pm

Fundibularius wrote on Oct 24th, 2011 at 9:46am:

Morphy wrote on Oct 23rd, 2011 at 11:19am:
And the Balearic target really limits one's growth in that area IMO. The larger your target, the more things you can do wrong and still hit it. I do not sling at a Balearic target for the same reason I don't use my father-in-law's barn for a target.

I guess the idea of having a third center ring would solve the problem fairly easily though.  


What about increasing your own distance to the target?


Right now I sling in a situation where my max distance is 30-35 meters. 35 would be stretching it. Otherwise that would be the easiest solution.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Rat Man on Oct 24th, 2011 at 2:07pm
   I hear you loudly and clearly when you say that you want to dumb down slinging for the masses, c_a.  Your idea could work to get those totally unfamiliar with slinging to try it.  But how long would they be satisfied with this entry level type slinging.  Go back to when you were a novice.  How long would you have stayed interested in such slinging.  A month?  Two?  
  Very few people ever try slinging these days.  Of those that do, only a small fraction become addicted, as we have.  Would we have stayed interested if slinging was limited to slinging sand filled rubber balls with Aussie pouches?  I'm not so sure.
  That's why I like my suggestion.  Go ahead with your entry level slinging to simplify it to get more people to try it.  That's not a terrible idea.  But give them some where to go once the get more experienced and want to experiment.  Have one class set up as you suggest, with sand filled lacrosse balls and Aussie pouches.  With this in place how hard would it be to include an unlimited class, where just the target and distances are the same?  That way you get the best of both worlds.  You have dumbed down slinging to make it easy for newbies plus you've given them somewhere to go so they don't get bored.  
   I don't have a problem with the Balearic target for both classes and I can see where it might be necessary to ban certain types of ammo such as golf balls for safety reasons.
   

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Jaegoor on Oct 24th, 2011 at 3:26pm
Morphy:

I must smile a little bit at her joke.

Diane only the centre of the baleric barn is called.

I am sure quite: If she had defeated this aim already several times, they would have divided it with us.

However, I am not certainly best slinger. I do not know at all so easily is balearic is aimed at hitting. Not only once separate several times.

I believe the reasons to avoid the Spanish system are quite different.

Sorry for my opinion.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Oct 24th, 2011 at 5:52pm
I like RM's take. And the point he made to back it up. My dream competition would be everyone using their own style of sling and their own slinging style. Greek throwers, Byzantine, Apache, Balearic, Fig-8 you name it. All going head to head. How cool would that be? I feel like a kid in a candy store just thinking about going to such a competition...

No sling type offers a significant accuracy advantage over any other. So, as long as the newbies are looked out for like RM said, what is accomplished by limited people's choice on sling, style of throw, length etc? I can almost guarantee if such a competition was set up than all the more experienced slingers would end up creating their own freestyle competition anyways. People won't remain limited forever if it isn't necessary to keep the competition fair. Might as well beat them to it and create it to begin with.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by jax on Oct 24th, 2011 at 8:37pm
 The world standard is for us and our own slinging get togethers.This isn't an attempt by me(or anyone on here,I hope)to dilute the relic for some Olympic event.Having some little squash ball for ammo seems like a lot of work.Why not a piece of rock or whatever that is between this gram and that gram.I don't know the weights,but ya'll do.Let's try to figure out the three most important things.

Again,

 1)Target size and

 2)Distance

 3)Ammo weight


 Don't try to tell us what style and how long or what kind of sling.Like everyone has been saying(Yes CA,you included),the slinging crowd is small enough.Most newbies won't be able to use a certain length sling,or a certain TYPE of pouch.

 I am trying,

 Brett

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by timann on Oct 25th, 2011 at 1:59pm
I agree with a lot here, with special mention; Rat Man and jax :)
I`ll throw forth some thoughts here, take it simply as that;
Target size, Id like a balearic type with a central bullseye, wich would at least give a nice aiming point.
When/if I host the first Norwegian slinging competition it will be improvised from cardboard, boards, whatever I can scrounge up :D.

Distance, might be complicated, as 10-15-20-25-30-35-40 meters is all fine slinging distances for such a target but it has to be simplified a bit (10-20-35?).

Ammo weight, must go as low as minimum 50 grams to allow tennis balls (and my favorite-bandy balls (now they could be standard ammo ;)))a nice stone size is around 100 grams but we might need to go higher up to around 200-250 grams as we shouldn`t omit balearic size stones.

Sling lenght and type, and slinging style, hey, we are The Free Slingers, we want to keep as much freedom as we need to have fun with our hobby.
timann

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Oct 26th, 2011 at 3:41pm
WE have definitly established

1.Baleric style target

2. Whatever style you want to use.

3. Whatever ammo you can get your hands on  ;)

4. Distance? This is really the last issue. Tennis balls really start curving off if you don't have a rifled spin after 25yards or so and for some people even sooner. Also some people who live in more urban areas might not even 30 yards to sling. My suggestion is around 10yards and 20yards or a compromise of 15.

I would really suggest having an open poll on distance in order to find the most common prefered distance for competition

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Oct 26th, 2011 at 7:54pm
I don't think 1 set distance is going to cut it. There is just too big a difference between different skill levels in slinging.

Maybe 3 different divisions.

Division I- 10-20 meters (3 shots at 10 and 3 shots at 20. Maybe 2 practice shots before the official shots?)

Division II- 20-30 meters (3 shots at each distance, warm up shots etc.)

Division III- 30-40 meters (ditto)

-------------------------

Personally I like Timann's idea for a Balearic target with a smaller bullseye in the middle. You still essentially have the Balearic target. You're just adding a smaller ring for those who have increased their skill to make use of it. If a slinger has become skilled enough to hit such a center ring, he/she should be rewarded for that skill. IMO 1/4th the size of the current center circle of the Balearic target is a good size for a center circle within the original .5 meter circle.

If you make one division for everyone with the current Balearic target and this competition ends up drawing more people to slinging your going to have problems.  The really competitive slingers are going to quickly outstrip the difficulty of the current target/distance and get bored. On the other hand if you simply increase the distance then the newer slingers are going to feel completely overwhelmed at the difficultly. Therefore more divisions are needed.

The point is, that if you actually succeed in making this sport more popular then people, especially teens, are going to throw themselves into it and practice to a degree most of us can hardly imagine right now. But it happens whenever a sport becomes popular. And you need the sport set up that it can easily accommodate such growth in the skill level.

Look how far target archery has come in a relatively short amount of time. These guys are shooting at small bullseyes from 70 meters away and hitting as often as not. You have to look ahead if you're going to set something like this up. If the competition is there people will up their skill level to a degree you can barely imagine now.

--------------

As far as ammo there should be some restrictions on it. Obviously an official competition isn't going to want people to use tomatoes as an ammo. Baseball limits their players to wooden bats to simplify things and keep everything fair. Nothing wrong with doing the same for ammo in a slinging competition. Just seems natural to use stones. They are dense enough to both fly well and also give good feedback as you go into the throw.

Anyways...just some thoughts here.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by jlasud on Oct 27th, 2011 at 1:47am
Agreed with Dan and Morphy especially with the divisions.Also i would like to add that the first group\division 10-20m would be suitable for the beginners therefore tennisballs or other safe,standardized ammo could be used.The short distance wouldn't affect the tennis balls too much either. I would consider some sort of qualification test for beginners to get into the next division when your allowed to use rocks.This would eliminate most of the possibilities for accidents to happen.Until one does not prove that he's slinging consistently in front of him,he shouldn't be allowed to sling stones where other people are present.
The balearic target is just fine,although a bulls eye could be added in it's center that would have flipping mechanism with a spring,so the marksman slingers don't get bored of knocking the diana. :D
Sling restrictions is something i'm highly against. Of course if a kid shows up with 2m long sling and he thinks it's funny to spin it helicopter,while everyone is ducking on the rythm of his revolutions,he should be educated ;)

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 27th, 2011 at 7:02am
competitions between slinging.org members - hell do what you like :-)
at the end of the day it won't produce anything capable of taking to the outside world - well in 8 years of slinging.org's existence it never has.
That is a completely different discussion.

What I'm talking about is a different form of slinging.

Let's try a different approach.

If you want to learn archery - you contact a local archery club
If you want to learn fencing, or any martial art - you contact or join a local club.

if you want to learn slinging and don't live in the balearic islands of spain - you are completely stuffed. You cannot join anything except this forum and a bunch of youtube videos.

That is my point. And to make it easy to set up a slinging club - the basic competition or learning activity needs to be standardised.
end of story.

It's what the balearics do.
I'm just talking about something with a wider global approach.



Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Oct 27th, 2011 at 1:42pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 27th, 2011 at 7:02am:
to make it easy to set up a slinging club - the basic competition or learning activity needs to be standardised.


I have a feeling no one would disagree with this statement. It's the type and amount of standardization that seems to be the sticking point for most people. Just one thing to remember... when speaking about the outside world; keep in mind we are the outside world. This forum is a good representation of the varied backgrounds, ages and goals for your average sling club member. Essentially what would appeal to the average person that would be interested in joining a sling club is probably pretty close to the general consensus of the members on this forum, if for no other reason than we are one and the same.  



Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Oct 27th, 2011 at 5:49pm

Dan wrote on Oct 26th, 2011 at 3:41pm:
WE have definitly established

1.Baleric style target

2. Whatever style you want to use.

3. Whatever ammo you can get your hands on  ;)

4. Distance? This is really the last issue. Tennis balls really start curving off if you don't have a rifled spin after 25yards or so and for some people even sooner. Also some people who live in more urban areas might not even 30 yards to sling. My suggestion is around 10yards and 20yards or a compromise of 15.

I would really suggest having an open poll on distance in order to find the most common prefered distance for competition


See morphy if we only allow rocks then guys like Bill Skinner or anyone else who just doesn't have rocks in the area wouldn't easily be able to compete, and with the number of slingers there are, we definitly want to reel in the largest amount of slingers.

And we can all agree there needs to be some kind of standardidation, heck that's why there's are 4+ pages of repies on this topic.
I think for the more expienced and the newbies a you could just adjust the size of the center dot say  1 1/2' for more expierenced and 2 1/2' for new guys. And It's probably a good idea to iclude the details of your ammo, distance, target, hits, and score. Random Example: 5 hits black, 10 hits white, 5 misses (we should probably also choose how many shots you should take for the score), rocks, 15 yards, advanced target, score 25?

A scoring system should probably also be established, somthing simple like 3 points black, 1 point white, But we can work on that after we get all the other details straight.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Oct 27th, 2011 at 5:59pm
I also voted 15-20-30 because it was the closest to my ideal option 10-20-30 all simple even numbers would be ideal, the KISS princible really applies here.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 28th, 2011 at 6:43am
for inter slinging.org comps.
the only things that need to be decided are target and distance.
1 point for square - 2 points for circle. You really cannot get any simpler.

The balearic target can be made from a wide variety of things and setting the distance in units of 10 metres just makes sense.
And that should be the end of it.

That said I suspect that there will be another 8 years of debate - at least - before anyone here agrees on anything :-)
Cynical ? Nah just been here for 6 years.


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Oct 28th, 2011 at 12:07pm
@CA, Obviously there is nothing wrong with doing both. I hope your slinging venture turns out well. In the end we all benefit from it.

@Dan, I'm in that camp as well. Maybe have a selection of various ammo types. I can't see any real competition allowing people to use whatever ammo they want. Tomatoes? Eggs? Naw... Then you would have the guys that would use perfectly machined steel glandes. All other things being equal, the stone/clay thrower will be at a disadvantage to such perfect ammo especially on longer distance shots.

All of this is just talk though. Realistically I don't know anyone but CA who has any serious designs to make such a competition.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Oct 28th, 2011 at 2:54pm
Well, I don't know of anyone that slings food on a regular basis and I would think that most people will probably be singing golf balls, tennis balls, rocks, clay glands, squash balls, or maybe lead. The farthest appart are lead and tennis balls but I think the lead guys (which there aren't a whole lot of) would just take a few steps back.

I think as long as everyone records the specifics it won't be a big issue and beside the whole point is just to see how you are coming along compared to others. I was just talking to a guy about how (modern) archery competitions have really degraded, it used to be just fun in the woods and trick shots but now guys are buying the knew ulta light space age compounds and range finders, adjusting their sights for 10 min before they actually take the shot, and it just becomes way to technical.

Let's not make slinging that way, I don't think we could anyway even if we tried because of the general inconsitency sling accuracy. But I think the end reasult is (if I figured this out correctly):

1. Baleric style target (can be made of various material)

2. Any style you prefer.

3. Any sling you prefer.

4. Any reasonable ammo (nothing rocket powered ;)).

5. Distance of 10-20-30 Yards

6. 1 point for hitting the square and 2 points for the circle.

7. Record details about your slinging and score in your post on the Competition thread (has not yet been created).

8. Score is total number of points out of 20 throws, perfect score is 40.    

Competition will be mainly held here on slinging.org but live competitions are encouraged as well, details about longer range slinging and distance throwing can be figured out at a later time.  ;)
If there is anything that's just really wrong here let me know and we can tweek it a bit.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 28th, 2011 at 3:48pm
5. yards or metres ?

Different lengths.
not much difference one on one - but when you've got 30 all together - the person slinging from 30 yards has a significant advantage over the person slinging from 30 metres.

30 yards = 27.4 metres
30 metres = 32.8 yards

bearing in mind that only the US uses yards. And even then lengths are usually quoted in feet not yards cos it sounds longer.

other than that,  works for me  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Caldou on Oct 28th, 2011 at 4:16pm

Morphy wrote on Oct 28th, 2011 at 12:07pm:
Realistically I don't know anyone but CA who has any serious designs to make such a competition.

Take note that "world standard" doesn't only mean competition ;) it also mean having some standard you can use to create a sport club, to create a big group of slingers to take over those competitions an win slings made of pure gold.... or maybe bullets, since gold is denser than lead. ;)
So that's make 2 people who have a serious motivation :)


Dan wrote on Oct 28th, 2011 at 2:54pm:
5. Distance of 10-20-30 Yards
8. Score is total number of points out of 20 throws, perfect score is 40.

In "World" there is "international" (well hidden, but it is). So I would say "10-20-30 metre" :)
But 20 shots are not easily divided in 3 distances, so either 15 (5 each) 21 (7 each) or 30 (10 each) would seem more logical to me :)

Other than that, I'm ok with those rules ^^ And for the super slingers, they may want to shoot at greater distances after 30 bullseyes at 30m.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Oct 28th, 2011 at 4:20pm
I think we are talking about 2 different things Dan, which considering how this thread has gone, doesn't surprise me too much lol...

I like your idea of a casual "anything goes" type competition with bare minimum regulations. Should be fun.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Oct 28th, 2011 at 4:56pm
Nope I think yards are definitley the right meausurement.  :)
At least that's the one I am gonna use.

Anyway I highly doubt anyone will break out the tape measure it's more likely it will jst be 10, 20, and 30 paces.

Caldou I was thinking that they would take all 20 shots from one distance depending on skill level.  

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 30th, 2011 at 1:22pm
well given that everyone has different length legs and different sized paces - that's even worse lol

a lot of people outside of the states don't have access to yard measurement sticks or tapes.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Masiakasaurus on Oct 30th, 2011 at 3:49pm
A meter is really close to 3 feet 4 inches. Easy enough to measure out with a yard stick or with a tape measure. The opposite is a little harder, so I vote for the meter as the official units for slinging.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Oct 31st, 2011 at 2:30pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 30th, 2011 at 1:22pm:
well given that everyone has different length legs and different sized paces - that's even worse lol

a lot of people outside of the states don't have access to yard measurement sticks or tapes.



For me I know that and I'll probably take 11-22-33 steps in order to compensate.

Almost everyones "big step" is about a yard. If you are over 6 foot than your normal step is about a yard.

To make it even and compareable I'll do a "yard and a bit" and the difference between the 2 units at 10-20-30 will probably only be a few inches.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Rockman on Oct 31st, 2011 at 11:30pm
The decimal system is better for this type of measurements. Going in units of ten is easier.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Nov 2nd, 2011 at 8:24am
I like to think that I am smart enough to count in numbers other than 10.  ;)

but enough about the meteric system.


I think that we pretty much have finished all the details, I am gonna assymble the target tonight if I have some time. And I think we can get started soon.  :)

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Nov 2nd, 2011 at 2:00pm
I agree with meters as well. My guess is we have 3 that are actually saying meters and probably the vast majority of those not voicing an opinion would agree with that sentiment as well.  An international forum should use an international unit of measure.

I even put up a ghetto Balearic circle since people are dead set on using the Balearic target. The majority has spoken, who am I to disagree? (Although truth be told that's never stopped me before.  :P )

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Caldou on Nov 2nd, 2011 at 6:25pm
If you want to add some difficulty, you can put a CD in the middle of the diana, it should be small enough, right ?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 1:45am

Caldou wrote on Nov 2nd, 2011 at 6:25pm:
If you want to add some difficulty, you can put a CD in the middle of the diana, it should be small enough, right ?


Too small actually. One of these days maybe...  ;)

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Rat Man on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 8:23am

Morphy wrote on Nov 2nd, 2011 at 2:00pm:
 An international forum should use an international unit of measure.

 :P )


That pretty much says it all.  Though I was raised with the English system and loathe how Big Brother tried to force the metric system on us, we are an international site, not an American site, so we should use metric measurements.
  Good to see you back, Morphy.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 8:29am
I am pretty American so I'll probably just convert 10 20 and 30 meters to yards and use that as my measurement.  ;)

Also can someone referesh my memeory on the baeleric sling target dimensions.

Anyway I can probably start competeing after archery season ends (next saturday). Looking forward to it guys.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Masiakasaurus on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 9:38am

Dan wrote on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 8:29am:
I am pretty American so I'll probably just convert 10 20 and 30 meters to yards and use that as my measurement.  ;)

Also can someone referesh my memeory on the baeleric sling target dimensions.

1.2 meters square, 0.5 meter diana, and 1 meter clearance from the ground.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Jaegoor on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 6:03pm
1.2 m square, 0.5 m diana, and 1,60m clearance from the ground.(up to the middle)
Ariane_Kopie.png (409 KB | )

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Nov 4th, 2011 at 12:23am
Thanks RM. Mostly just responding to this particular thread.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Nov 4th, 2011 at 8:51am

Masiakasaurus wrote on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 9:38am:

Dan wrote on Nov 3rd, 2011 at 8:29am:
I am pretty American so I'll probably just convert 10 20 and 30 meters to yards and use that as my measurement.  ;)

Also can someone referesh my memeory on the baeleric sling target dimensions.

1.2 meters square, 0.5 meter diana, and 1 meter clearance from the ground.


Or 3' 11.24" , round up to 4 feet. and 1' 7.68" round down (balances the prevous round up) to a foot and a diameter.

so 4' square, 1 1/2' circle. about a yard off the ground.  ;)

8-) I am going camping with a few friends tonight I'll see if we can make one of these (out of some thick canvas) and try it out.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Aussie on Nov 4th, 2011 at 5:45pm
Probably easier to think of it as a 4 foot square with a circle of 20 inches in diameter, 3 feet off the ground.

(It's actually a whisker smaller but you'll never see the difference at  20m or 66 feet.)

Great idea to make a canvas target as you can hang it up from a tree branch or something similar and roll it up when not in use. You won't get that nice 'clangy' sound when you hit the Diana but the ease and convenience will be great. Perhaps if you make the Diana out carpet or some other fabric there may be a significant enough difference in the sound to enable you to tell which part of the target you've hit?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Nov 6th, 2011 at 1:30pm
Yeah definitly a good idea to reienforce the diana, not only because of the sound differnce but also becuase I'll probably be hitting it almost every time, not.  :)

Seriously though I'll see if I can get the Canvas tonight and spray paint on a temporary diana and I'll just reinfoce it later. And then next week I'll ger more of a chance to sling (this week is the last week of Bow season), and almost the peak of the rut.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by johnwayne11 on Nov 11th, 2011 at 11:27am
Not everyone, including myself, have access to raw materials and the ability to weave a fantasy slings.At old world while not having access to all Paracord, lawnmower cord conveyor belts, leather and other forms of new media in the world.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Caldou on Feb 28th, 2013 at 5:03am
:madmonkey:

I've found proof that we can legitimately forgot all about the Balearic style limitation for competition :
It was only for aesthetics.

My proof is here : http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1121095277/3#3.
For those who don't know, Vicente is (was ?) an official judge for the Balearic competitions, so he kinda know what he's talking about.

As a collateral, we learn that the balearic style... is a made-up style and that the people using the sling everyday used quicker styles.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Camo-sling on Feb 28th, 2013 at 9:22am
I read through the whole thread tonight and I'd like to voice some opinions and questions before it's too late. First and foremost, it was a very interesting and entertaining read! Everyone raised good points and it's hard to pick a side really.

1. C_A's opinions at the start of the thread made great points. Firstly, the competition needs to have standardization, we all know this. Creating a standard sling and standard ammunition is a great way of guiding newcomers to the sport as it gives them an instant baseline and knowledge of the type of sling which works and the ammunition which is relativity safe to learn and practice with.  

Many members are forgetting a key aspect of the discussion. Slinging as a sport and as a hobby is very different. There is a thin line which separates those who are attracted to the sport and those who truly love the sling. Those who are attracted to the sport may love the competition, the chance to cement their name into a the early history of a new sport or just the feeling of winning. That's the case where they want to know what sling works, what style to use and what ammunition is the best. They want the fastest and easiest method of getting good in the least amount of time possible. They might not want to experiment, they might not have the time, they might just want to buy something that's proven to work and they will buy it. They want a quick and easy entry to the sport.

This is why so many newcomers go straight to Aussie for a sling. They don't have the instant passion and love to spend hours and hours crafting their own slings. It doesn't mean they aren't interested. It means they don't have the strong enough interest (yet  ;)) to fuel research and spend time creating their own slings. Without Aussie's slings, how many potential slinger's would be lost because their interest would have died long before they spend hours making a sling? I can definitely say I would not still be here if Aussie hadn't offered to send me a free sling. My early attempts were useless and I was close to giving up. That one gesture of guidance was the difference between me existing on this forum and me posting videos of slinging on Youtube. Chances are there's many who just gave up because they couldn't buy a sling or there weren't any guidelines teaching them which techniques to use, which sling to use, what distances and where they can take their hobby. How many possible contributions to the sport could we have so easily lost over the years because of a lack of clear cut guidance?

That's where the standardization of the sling types, sling styles, lengths, targets, distances and ammunition needs to be decided for them to enable them to continue their interest. It's an easy and fast method of becoming involved in the sport where all the knowledge is provided for them and all the materials. They want the fastest route to enter the sport, and they don't want to spend the time making their own slings or spending countless hours reading forums learning about different slings and lengths and ammunition and styles and so forth.

On the other side of the spectrum, there's us. The slinging enthusiasts. We want to experiment with different lengths, different styles, different ammunition, different everything! We love the sling, we don't need a competition to fuel our thirst for knowledge or drive our passion to make our own handmade slings we pour our time into. We don't need an organization to tell us how to sling and what sling to use. We discover that ourselves. We are emotionally attached to our hobby and we want to do things our way with our personally preferred slinging attributes and factors (eg. preferred lengths, ammunition etc). I believe most members are suggesting the conditions of slinging as a sport from this view. We don't want to limited by our hobby, we don't want to be told we can't use that length, we can't use that ammunition and we can't do this and that. However, not everyone is going to like us.

That's what I feel C_A is pushing. An entry point and a method is the best way to learn and gain knowledge, especially for those who don't have a strong interest at first. That small interest can turn into a passion so easily, however, a small interest can just so easily be lost. A method and entry point aids the discovery of the sling and supports interest until it can become a passion.

I'll put it this way - We put our children in school classes to learn essential knowledge through programs and curriculum's. We don't place them in a huge library of books, computers and newspapers and expect them to learn their timetables and world history by themselves.  ---- Directing potential slinger's to a sport without guidelines and pathways is like placing them in a library and expecting them to learn everything by themselves. Unless they don't have a strong interest, they are going to be filtered out and the small interest lost. Then we are left asking ourselves what could have been. There needs to be a method of guiding newcomers through the sport and transforming a small interest into a passion. People interested in the sport alone don't have a great interest, however, it can utilized and developed or it can be lost.

In conclusion, I think the best solution is to follow a standardized competition to attract and develop the interests of newcomers who don't share the passion for the sling as us members do. However, in saying this, I would not like to compete in such a competition which is standardized for the same reason as most of the members who contributed to the forum. I don't need the standardization to teach me how to use a sling, what styles to use and what slings to make. So I believe the open category also needs to be made to enable the passionate slingers to use whatever materials they want and hit the targets any way they want with whatever they want. Because at the end of the day, a hit is a hit.

Thanks for reading.

Nick.


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Camo-sling on Feb 28th, 2013 at 9:38am
Oh yes, my post goes on...

2. I like the idea of having a smaller inner circle within the middle of the Balearic target. It makes sense, it's the pinnacle of possible accuracy within the target and it should be worth more points.

3. Why not extend another category of accuracy up to at least 60 meters or even above. It's planning for the future - if 45 meters becomes easier with the intake of better slinging benchmarks. It is certainly possible to hit the Balearic target at these distances. I bet there are a few slingers on the website who are able to hit targets at this distance, let alone shepherds in unreachable locations.

4. I think I read each category of distance contains only 3 shots. It's very possible to fluke those shots with such a small sample size. Why isn't the number of shots merely 10 for each category? I think it's a better indicator of accuracy in terms of consistency and I can definitely see it making a competition more tense and rely on better skills.

5. I am fond of the idea of having equal ammunition such as the squash balls or clay ammo, at least in the standardized aspect of the sport. It's easier to control and easier to tune in accuracy than using rocks. Something like tennis balls are safer for newcomers and ensure each person in the competition hasn't got an advantage over the next in terms of ammunition. For a free category, I wouldn't care, to each their own.

6. So we've got a lot of go to these ideas, so what now? Do we put it in our slinging ebook guide? On the website? Do we form our own slinging competition organization? The federation or what? I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this the most.  

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 28th, 2013 at 10:27am

Quote:
As a collateral, we learn that the balearic style... is a made-up style and that the people using the sling everyday used quicker styles.


Something I've been saying for a few years.

Although I think the balearic competition style was adopted simply to make the competition harder.

And inner circle on the diana ?

Well you'd need to cut out a hole and line it with netting. That way there'd be no doubt where you hit and you wouldn't have to worry about the shot crossing an imaginary line. You get it in the net - it's gone through the hole. No doubts.

But it's completely unnecessary - from 30 metres the centre of a balearic target is a bloody hard target.  

Although I was pleasanrlt surprised on monday. Hadn't really done any slinging for the last couple of months. As it's dark when I walk the dog and I've been really busy elsewhere.

Pete came down for the hillfort target testing.
Have to admit I was pleasantly surprised with how little I was missing the target.
Tried a couple of styles and sling lenghts but ended up defaulting to fig 8 and my well used cap paul original sling.

I figure were I to actually practice regularly with a balearic target I'd definitely be hitting it a lot more than I missed at all distances.
Like everything it's down to practice, practice and then practice a bit more :-)

However if I had to ue a balearic sidearm or any multi windup slinging style -  my accuracy would drop dramatically.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Donnerschlag on Feb 28th, 2013 at 8:50pm
C_A and Camo make some very good points, but I still feel that such an action would only hurt slinging efforts more than it would help.

Keep in mind that it's the arbitrary restrictions that made the Balearic ruleset so controversial outside of the Balearic isles in the first place. Otherwise we probably would've just adopted it instead of continually trying to reinvent the wheel. (For example, I prefer synthetic materials in my workhorse slings, and I prefer two rotations or less when I throw with them. Both are big no-no's in the Balearic ruleset.)

I'll compare my reluctance for a rigidly-micro-managed system to modern fencing, and it's drawbacks.
Sure, In the beginning it's fairly easy for newbies to get in the groove. However, it's that very same iron fist of regulations--many of which are just inappropriately silly for a martial art--that result in either constantly complaining/annoyed fencers, or fencers simply abandoning it all-together for more organic sword-based martial arts. (It was HEMA, in my case.)

Even if you ignore the logistical complications of supplying each and every slinger with identical gear, there's still the human aspect. You can standardize every little aspect, but people aren't identical. What works for one person will only serve to handicap another. A meter-long sling used in a figure-8 is going to behave differently for a 5' tall guy than it will for a 6' 5" guy. Sure, most may be able to get by... but if you give a novice an ill-matched sling and a make him use a style he doesn't really have an affinity towards, he'll do one of two things:

  *Either he'll realize the restrictions the system is putting on him and be unable to do anything about it...
  *He'll blame it on himself, ultimately convinced that he's "not gifted" and ending up quitting. (This is a very commonly-seen mindset, btw.)

Granted, if "set loose in the library", a beginner can quickly become confused and lost in tiny details from so many different conflicting sources. That just means we need an easy-grasped introduction to the sport for beginners. Something like a "Slinger's Guide" in book form... Gee, If only we had one of those: that would solve most of the problems novices' have! I wish a book like that existed! ;)

When you boil it down all you really need to know to get started is a sling about the length of their own arm, and some pointers on where to begin. (Slinger's Guide, YouTube videos, "where to begin" articles/forum threads, etc.) After that, they can experiment and dial in their preferences however they want. It's really not that complicated, and we already have tons of resources nowadays that keep readdressing this. No need to get hung up on it. ;)



Anyways, do I think we should have an easily-accessible method for newbies? Yes! Do I think a tightly-controlled standard that everyone must conform to will solve this? Heck no. Do I think no rules whatsoever is necessary? Definitely not.
It's all about moderation: having everything regulated to the point that people are quickly starting to suffer from suffocating restrictions is just as bad as total anarchy.

As for the "lack of access to a good sling" issue...
I'm pretty sure the biggest reason for most newbies not taking advantage of the Aussie pouch deal is because they simply don't know about it. Not because existing resources are non-existent, but because they aren't aware of all of the goodies potentially available to them! The Aussie pouch thread may be a sticky in one of the sub-forums, but I've known several people who didn't even know there was a forum on the website to begin with. :P
If we made sure to tell newbies about it, then they'd likely pounce on the offer. (I usually go a step further and carry a few pouches in my backpack and just hand them out when someone's interested)

What I think we should do to make it easier on beginners is have an easily-accessible and well-publicized "basic model" or two for beginners. Then you could simply keep a stock of them on-hand to loan out/give away at slinging clubs and events. Aussie pouches and seatbelt slings would fill this need beautifully. Then if they want to upgrade after a certain time, then they can do so at their own leisure. That way everyone wins: the existing slingers/slinging cultures won't be completely alienated, and the newbies will be able to join into the fray rather quickly. :)




[The part below is more casual preferences rather than stuff that I absolutely hate.]
However, I am all for a standardized range, and to a degree, ammo. (Lead out-distances all other ammo, and can potentially poison the local environment.) For official events/tournaments, I'd recommend either carefully-chosen river rock, concrete, or clay as a decent-enough compromise between ease of access and manufacture while maintaining a "professional" appearance. (Mortar, concrete, and clay are fairly easily-attainable in areas without decent rocks)

It might be a good idea to make it only concrete/mortar/clay/stone initially, and then introduce a metal ammo division/event if demand is big enough. (In a way, like what baseball has going on with wood vs. metal bats)

Honestly, I have no problem if someone likes using some ball from another sport as their preferred practice ammo, but using rubber balls as the standard ammo for an international slinging competition would be like sticking suction cups on the ends of arrows in a high-level competition, or using a Red Rider bb gun for an olympic biathalon. Fair enough if it's only beginners in a short-distance event, but otherwise it looks silly if everyone is using them. :P
As for the "safety of modified rubber balls" aspect: if a rubber ball is dense enough to sling accurately over 25-40 meters, it's not going to be much safer than just getting hit with a rock/concrete glande in the first place. :P


I like the idea of just using the Balearic target with some kind of smaller sub target added to the center of the diana. The combo would work really well.
I originally voted 15, 25, 35, but after some more thought, I like the 10, 20, 30 meter classes better for simplicity's sake. And it should definitely be meters, not yards. I may be American, but I still think it's retarded and inconsiderate to continue being too stubborn, lazy, and short-sighted to adopt the metric system like the rest of the world. A short-term headache in exchange for a measurement system that will permanently ensure that cross-measurement confusion is a thing of the past? Heck yeah!

================================



TL; DR Version:
No restrictions for slings or their materials. (Maybe a long and short sling division at most.)
No restrictions on slinging technique.
Yes to the 10,20,30 meter distances.
Yes to the Balearic target with an additional inner "diana" of sorts.
Stone/concrete/clay ammo preferred. (Maybe metal later on, if demand calls for it)

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 1st, 2013 at 4:01pm
I would say two divisions- "wovens" and "nonwovens". Woven slings are like a balaric, rockman, etc. the woven/braided slings.
then there are the "nonwovens"- leather and some material for the cords. your choice on material, but it has to be approved- like paracord, etc(one reason I am trading for paracord :D) as for distance, I say 15, 25, 35. Realisticly, I DID NOT read this whole thread, just thr first page.
Wovens are the unique slings, the 'unorthadox"- thats where we can experiment. the "non-wovens" are the workhorses. good, durable, slings that are used for target. put some limits on size, e.g between 70 inches and 20 inches, I think thats reasonable. and put a limit on weight and projectile material- e.g "natural"(stones, lumps of dirt and ice) and "artificial"-Stuff shaped by us.
and within have 2 weights- Heavy- 5 oz and above, upper limit of 10 oz(I am not happy here, but hey I am probably the only one who slings 16 oz ammo) and light, like 1-4.9 oz.
This should work, encouraging experimentation and messing around, but still helping standardizing so it can be recognized. just like every tennis player has a different racket, every slinger uses a slightly different sling.
-Squirrel
EDIT- Oh God, did not realize how much I rambeled, sorry for the messy post here :P

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 1st, 2013 at 4:04pm
Also, I would include this in my post, but I think it would not be noticed- Some, actually MANY slingers do not have a 50 yard safe space to sling in. you want at least 2 meters behind target and 2 behind you, if not more, so a 45 meter range is simply impractical for many of us. Lightslinger mentioned this a while ago.
Thanks for patience,
-Squirrel

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Donnerschlag on Mar 1st, 2013 at 4:53pm
You just reminded me of a good point I completely forgot to touch upon in my last post: a maximum sling-length limit ;)
Like 1.3 - 1.5 meters and under, or something

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Caldou on Mar 1st, 2013 at 8:29pm

squirrelslinger wrote on Mar 1st, 2013 at 4:04pm:
Some, actually MANY slingers do not have a 50 yard safe space to sling in. you want at least 2 meters behind target and 2 behind you, if not more, so a 45 meter range is simply impractical for many of us.

In this one context, this in a false problem.

What we discuss here is the sport aspects of the slinging development.
You can play catch with your friends in your garden (even with your sling) but you need a special environment to train a baseball team (and they won't allow you to bring out your sling...)

If you are serious about making a sport out of this, then you will find some space to train even for the longer distances :)
If you're a marathonian, you don't run in circle in your backyard, do you ? Same with slinging while training for competition with such a range.

If i remember what I read correctly (it's currently 1 and half in the morning on a friday evening after a tiring week, my brain is quite fried ::)) we almost all agree that less regulation is good, that the newbies will want something easy to start with and veterans want something complicated. And that 2 slingers won't ever agree, even on the color of Gengis Khan's white horse...

So far, concerning the target we have balearic sized target, at 3 fixed distance.
If you hit the diana 50 times out of 50 shots, you can always double this distance, so it's also cutting drosophilas' butt hair in 4 to nitpick about a couple meters more or less, so let's go with 15 - 30 - 45 for a starter. This is the distances that get the most votes and we can always change that once we have proof that's not enough/too much.

Concerning standardisation, sorry C_A, I'm pretty sure you're right about easing the newcomer's choice by telling them "this is standard material" but I think it's club management's duty to issue "safety slings and ammo" for beginner.

If we want to stress out security, we can say "each competition has a "beginner" class, for those with less than 3 competitions (or at club coach discretion). Beginner will have to used safety ammo such as [insert standard industrialised already rather easily obtainable ammo] and will be allowed to shot from nearer" or whatever in the same style.

If people want to keep the safety belt and paracord sling (I believed that will be the most worldwide standard you can go) all along their slinging competitive carreer, it should not be a problem. Neither if they want to use a full balearic or a knitted one or a shoe... Well, maybe if they want to use a shoe, they may be set apart (and not having their limbs taken apart, however tempting it sounds).

We can have a "weapon check" before competiting, but that's the organisators' choice.

Concerning the more dangerous ammo, I must confess that I don't know out of : the first to make something that can be easily exported and mass produced will probably be the one who's right. How many of you would be Ok for doing cement or clay shots by hundreds or sorting out the same numbers of rocks for a week-end long competition ?
No one will ever agree one the optimal weight of "serious and dangerous" shots, so I'm afraid it will boil down to "each slinger take his own ammo", and again the security check (no cracks, no visible defaults etc, etc...). Obviously, if one bring 2kg shots, he may have to pay for property damages :P

For the library metaphor... for now, wwe only have the library, we do'nt even have children nor teacher nor teaching programs :P
And that's what we need.

Right now, my provate life is quite complicated so I did nothing for my slinging club for almost one year (and this upset me) but I now what I need and I will be working on it : more advertisement and something to aim to motivate newcomers (as a club, I already have my slinging target).

Well, I feel like I'm starting to rant in circle and being disagreable, so I will let myself cool down and go to sleep.


Last rant :
We need to try and keep what's working, not to argue for the sake of argueing.
So go find students and make them sling their arms out ! ^^

Finished at 2h30 ^^

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 1st, 2013 at 8:50pm
LOL, Caldou. I personally am not up to trying to find a reasonably safe 150 foot clear field just for competition. Some people, I can name them, but wont, live in the city and cannot really go sling. It is simply not safe. I have the advantage of not living inner city. Caldou, I get where you are comeing from, but many of us sling becuase its cheap and WE DONT NEED SOME SPECIAL PLACE! Actually I think if i can just get 60 yards of clear space Ill be ok, but at the cost of someone's head probably. Its not my choice. I will just stick with shorter distances.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Camo-sling on Mar 2nd, 2013 at 3:53am

squirrelslinger wrote on Mar 1st, 2013 at 8:50pm:
I personally am not up to trying to find a reasonably safe 150 foot clear field just for competition. Some people, I can name them, but wont, live in the city and cannot really go sling. It is simply not safe. I have the advantage of not living inner city. Caldou, I get where you are comeing from, but many of us sling becuase its cheap and WE DONT NEED SOME SPECIAL PLACE!


As Caldou said, sport slinging will require those standard distances. Slinging in the backyard is part of the hobby and recreational side of slinging, no one is saying you can't shoot for accuracy in the backyard or in a local park. However, you can't shoot for accuracy for the purpose of compliance with sport slinging standards if you don't have adequate space nearby. That would require you to find an adequate space in order to comply with standard distances. For example, you can't drive around a roundabout and claim you are recording times for NASCAR. - Nothing will be stopping you from slinging in your own spaces for your own purposes.

As for the woven and unwoven categories, I think they should just remain compressed as one. We seem to be going for the liberal approach to slinging competitions regarding slinging styles and slings so what ever sling you want to use is the go. The two different slings really don't offer many unfair advantages or disadvantages as far as I can think right now. It just depends on the users skill and preferred techniques and approaches.

@Donn, the slinging guides and more instructional videos will definitely give the resources to craft a bigger slinging community and stimulate more development for an official slinging sport. This is really what will help the newcomers ease into slinging and sling building. I like the idea of having two categories of slinging competition, however, I'm not sure the popular vote will be to keep them both. The freer category will probably be more attention grabbing and be more free and easy for people to participate without needing the correct and approved materials.

@Caldou, as said by Donn, the slinging guides and similar items will be the teachers of the sport, at least very early on. You had a very brilliant idea of the safety inspections of stones in case they break apart. This is why there needs to be regulations in order to make the sport safe. I would also recommend sling checks. Additionally, the sling length may be needing certain limits in order to make sure its safe to swing around near audiences and etc. I'm somewhat picturing a booth for sling, similar to the confines of a cricket net, so sling length may be subjected to ensure it can be safely swung in the enclosure. But for open fields it's not really a problem unless you are using pirouette style.

Looks like we are going to have to make a small draft of our progress so far and a series of polls. I might try and put something together when I have free time

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 2nd, 2013 at 10:04am
Gosh, man, Camo, you just nailed that! anyway, a booth would be hard to do. I am thinking sort of like a baseball field, but with nets- there is a sort of enclosure, but its wide, and has a sort of roof. I personally cant sling in a space <10 feet by 10 feet for some reason, maybe its my long slings?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Pikåru on Mar 3rd, 2013 at 11:19pm

Whipartist wrote on Oct 9th, 2011 at 10:36pm:
I totally agree with Thunder Chief.  The most popular martial arts competition is MMA, not Tae Kwon Do or Boxing.  The reason is that MMA is more inclusive and fits better with the martial spirit, which is to win fights.    

I believe slinging competition should avoid becoming too much of a standardized sport which detracts from the interest in the sling as a primative weapon by making it into a mere golf club...

...I believe throwing distances should include a round at 40 meters or more as well as shorter distances.  Keeping ranges overly short for all rounds ignores the potential for the longer ranges slings are capable of and it rewards those who put inadequate power into their technique.  

I am interested in the sling as the primative weapon it is.  Accuracy and power at range were the goals of our ancestors and they should be our goals as well.  

I do believe ammo can be standardized in quality if a selection of weights are used.  But I believe the best would be to just keep using well selected stones.

I am opposed to uses of non-weaponized ammo of any weight, just as I wouldn't want to participate in an archery competition that used suction cups on the tips of the arrows.  Slings are primative weapons in which the potentials are as of yet unknown.  Let's not choke out the possibility that free and open competitions might provide to someone who's very skilled the opportunity to influence the future of slinging through the success of their chosen combination of technique, sling and ammo.  

Anyway, my two cents.


Finally a voice of reason. Where have you been?

A sling is a weapon, period. You can PC it all you want and call it a 'tool' or a toy but it's a weapon. I've been around this community for a year but have been slinging for nearly 40. Up until a year ago I had no idea slinging could be found in so many cultures and with it, so much variety.

Trying to cubby-hole slinging into categores and rankings and standardization of techniques, sling construction and ammunition seems to just take away from the variety, freedom and spirit of what I personally find in slinging. Now it just seems like Too many rules, too much politics and arguments over the minuscule.


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Pikåru on Mar 4th, 2013 at 12:21am

Rat Man wrote on Oct 18th, 2011 at 12:09am:
  I believe that we're all in agreement that a standard target and standard distances make sense.  Why not have two classes.  Do one your way, with a standard pouch and ammo and run it side by side with an unlimited class like some of us have suggested, where just the target and distances are standard.   The standardized class would be less confusing to and easier for beginner slingers.  The unlimited class might be more fun and interesting for more experienced slingers.  I'd probably try my luck in both classes.
   

I could hitch my wagon to this team. Simple and straight forward.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 5th, 2013 at 6:53am

Quote:
Slings are primative weapons in which the potentials are as of yet unknown.


Actually the potential is extremely well known.
And while slings were used as weapons of war for a couple of thousand years - they've always been used - even today - as a shepherds tool.

So no, it's not a pure instrument of war and it never has been, it is very much a tool used to protect and direct flocks of herbivores, drive birds from crops and hunt for food. And those uses are older and far more extensive than the sling as a weapon of mass warfare.

Anyway that's just background.

Target and distance are the only things it's possible to realistically standardise at the moment. So lets just stick to that.

What we could do with is a simple and cheap to construct, set of plans for a portable balearic target.

Any takers ?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Donnerschlag on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:43pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 6:53am:
[...]
What we could do with is a simple and cheap to construct, set of plans for a portable balearic target.

Any takers ?

Perhaps a sturdy wooden frame made from endangered mahogany and a 2cm thick diana made of copper, all gilded with generous amounts of gold leaf?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:50pm

Donnerschlag wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:43pm:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 6:53am:
[...]
What we could do with is a simple and cheap to construct, set of plans for a portable balearic target.

Any takers ?

Perhaps a sturdy wooden frame made from endangered mahogany and a 2cm thick diana made of copper, all gilded with generous amounts of gold leaf?

NAH, I think make the Diana out of 1/2 inch  plywood( if the stone does not leave a signifigant dent or remove paint, it does not count), maybe spray-painted neon pink. make frame PVC or whatever, as long as it is a certian size.  
Or, how bout magnesium alloy frame, and then maybe solid gold for the actual Diana, how bout 1.5 inches thick for a graunteed stop, gold is soft, so it should preserve indents will.
-Squirrel

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:53pm

Donnerschlag wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:43pm:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 6:53am:
[...]
What we could do with is a simple and cheap to construct, set of plans for a portable balearic target.

Any takers ?

Perhaps a sturdy wooden frame made from endangered mahogany and a 2cm thick diana made of copper, all gilded with generous amounts of gold leaf?


And that's helpful, how exactly ?


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Donnerschlag on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:56pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:53pm:

Donnerschlag wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 3:43pm:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Mar 5th, 2013 at 6:53am:
[...]
What we could do with is a simple and cheap to construct, set of plans for a portable balearic target.

Any takers ?

Perhaps a sturdy wooden frame made from endangered mahogany and a 2cm thick diana made of copper, all gilded with generous amounts of gold leaf?


And that's helpful, how exactly ?

It would look pretty  :(

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 5th, 2013 at 4:56pm
lol - yeah but completely bypasses the 'cheap and simple' tag.

Pretty is optional :-)


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by timu on Mar 7th, 2013 at 7:54am
Cheap an easy? Cut a door in half and put a garbage can lid dead center. These could be practice ones while the actual competition "model" we could just take a real Diana and backboard. That would keep us in line with the Balearic league. Same target different rules!

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 7th, 2013 at 8:20pm

Tomas wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 7:54am:
Cheap an easy? Cut a door in half and put a garbage can lid dead center. These could be practice ones while the actual competition "model" we could just take a real Diana and backboard. That would keep us in line with the Balearic league. Same target different rules!

Um...... Where on earth are we going to get a lot of doors?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Donnerschlag on Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:08pm

squirrelslinger wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 8:20pm:

Tomas wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 7:54am:
Cheap an easy? Cut a door in half and put a garbage can lid dead center. These could be practice ones while the actual competition "model" we could just take a real Diana and backboard. That would keep us in line with the Balearic league. Same target different rules!

Um...... Where on earth are we going to get a lot of doors?

I take it he meant you could just improvise something that would work for the backboard. The door's just an example


I like what Timu's suggesting though: just improvise something for personal/informal use if on a budget, and use a properly-made one for official use. It sounds like a better approach than trying to invent one standardized jack-of-all-trades that somehow satisfies all of the following: easy to make, cheap, portable, and yet somehow sturdy enough to last against dense ammo.
Even an old carpet/rug with a target spray-painted on and hung from something like a clothesline (like Dan's setup) would be a fine practice target for newbies, as long as it meets the dimensions and height.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Dan on Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:18pm
Yep, I've made a couple Balearic targets from carpet. I make them a little bit wider because sometimes they fold in a bit when you hang them, but they are almost exactly the same.

Its also convient that the year I started using back stops (2012) was one of the most catastrophic years in the North East for floods in the past 30 years so a lot of basements flooded and there were free carpets everywhere.  :)

There are probably other sources too thought that don't rely on unusually inclament weather.   ;)

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Donnerschlag on Mar 7th, 2013 at 11:22pm

Dan wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:18pm:
Yep, I've made a couple Balearic targets from carpet. I make them a little bit wider because sometimes they fold in a bit when you hang them, but they are almost exactly the same.

Its also convient that the year I started using back stops (2012) was one of the most catastrophic years in the North East for floods in the past 30 years so a lot of basements flooded and there were free carpets everywhere.  :)

There are probably other sources too thought that don't rely on unusually inclament weather.   ;)

Haha Great timing!
I imagine a good place to check would be apartment complexes. You'd be surprised by how often they have to change the carpeting out.  :P

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Camo-sling on Mar 11th, 2013 at 2:52am
Don't ask hotels for old carpets. Nuff' said.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Donnerschlag on Mar 13th, 2013 at 2:27am

Camo-sling wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 2:52am:
Don't ask hotels for old carpets. Nuff' said.

Not even hotels that charge by the hour?

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Camo-sling on Mar 13th, 2013 at 4:24am

Donnerschlag wrote on Mar 13th, 2013 at 2:27am:

Camo-sling wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 2:52am:
Don't ask hotels for old carpets. Nuff' said.

Not even hotels that charge by the hour?


Bring a UV light and expect the worst!

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Donnerschlag on Mar 13th, 2013 at 3:00pm

Camo-sling wrote on Mar 13th, 2013 at 4:24am:

Donnerschlag wrote on Mar 13th, 2013 at 2:27am:

Camo-sling wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 2:52am:
Don't ask hotels for old carpets. Nuff' said.

Not even hotels that charge by the hour?


Bring a UV light and expect the worst!

But that might bring it to life  :(

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by squirrelslinger on Mar 14th, 2013 at 5:40pm

Camo-sling wrote on Mar 13th, 2013 at 4:24am:

Donnerschlag wrote on Mar 13th, 2013 at 2:27am:

Camo-sling wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 2:52am:
Don't ask hotels for old carpets. Nuff' said.

Not even hotels that charge by the hour?


Bring a UV light and expect the worst!

:o :o :whistle:
i will act like I never understood this post....

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by LightSlinger on Mar 18th, 2013 at 3:50am
  Yes, well, (Putting Mod hat on) it might be best if we all pretend we don't know what we're talking about.  I don't think any lines have been crossed yet, so let's keep it that way Ladies and Gentlemen, and stay family friendly!

   Now, onward and forward...

   I've read over all the posts in this thread and have come to a couple of conclusions...  

   1.   There (quite obviously) seem to be a few seperate factions.  Can't we all just agree to disagree? No?  LOL.  Alright fine then.  Maybe we can make some progress by categorizing them.  Here's the list I have currently been able to discern.
       
             A.   Anti-Sportsmen:  These are the Slingers who embrace the sling as a hobby or an art form and can't stomach the idea of anything as yucky as rules touching them.  If this is you, then this is not the thread for you.  The whole purpose of this particular forum (and thread) is to determine the particulars of slinging as a sport.  There's nothing wrong with disliking the concept, but arguing against it only confounds the issue for those Slingers who do like the idea.  Just remember that nobody here is trying to take away your rights to sling whatever, whenever, wherever and however.

              B.   Free-Form Sportsmen:  These are the Slingers that like (or at least tolerate) the idea of Slinging as a Sport, but only if there are very few (or even no) rules and/or standards.  Well, I understand this.  I used to do quite a bit of “sword fighting” with (what we called) “Boffers”.  These were PVC Pipe covered with foam insulation, wrapped in duct tape.  We had very few rules for these bouts.  It was major big fun, let me tell you.  I used samurai sword fighting techniques (with a bit of Jedi thrown in), and another friend of mine liked renaissance style fencing.  Like I said, mucho fun-o.  
However, a world-wide recognized sport it could never be.  When people are competing for more than “the fun of it”, rules that encourage (or even force) fair-play are mandatory.  Let’s face it.  People cheat.  They often do whatever they must to win.  A Boffer filled with concrete would probably win the bout pretty quickly!

              C.   Pro-Standarizers:  These are Slingers that are in agreement with the idea of making everybody use the same stuff, the same way, the same where.  I gotta say that I understand this as well for the very reasons I mentioned already.  However, there is something to be said for creativity and a certain amount of fluidity even in a competition sport.  Watching American Football for me is an exhausting mental exercise that usually doesn’t really seem worth it.  Why?  Because it is super over regulated.  I challenge someone to find an NFL game that lasts even 5 minutes without a penalty flag being thrown.  If you do, I’ll bet you that it was from at least 30 years ago.  I fully understand the reasons for the rules.  It’s because people keep stepping on the Spirit of the Game in order to WIN.  So, rules are applied in order to maintain the Spirit of the game, which in turn kills it.  Pretty soon you have a game that goes from “Try to get past the other team with the ball by outsmarting or outplaying them” to “Try to think of ways to get around the exhaustive rules and still win.”  And Fun goes out the window.  
     
            D.   Freeform Standardizers:  Yeah, I know.  It’s an oxymoron.  But, I gotta say that this is the category that yours truly falls into.  At least in relation to accuracy competition.  These are the Slingers that believe in something between B and C.  We need some rules to, in fact, make it a competition and something that can be recognized as an actual sport, without completely sacrificing our personal creativity and preferences.  I quite like RatMan’s bowling analogies.  Very few and simple standards, and still a great game for competition.  Nobody says after losing a bowling match, “Well, he only won because he’s using a shallow fingertip, thumb hole-less, 9 ½ pound, fluorescent pink ball that he only throws straight.”  Why not?  Because it’s ridiculous, that’s why.  The object of the game is to knock down the pins.  Period.  Don’t step over the foul line, use a ball that you can lift, and knock down all the pins.  What else is there?

     2.    We need to make some Headway.  This is my second conclusion.  I suspect that we could probably argue about all this stuff until the second coming and just let the Lord settle things, or we could get down to brass tacks.  I mean, this particular thread started on October 9th 2011 at 8:34am.  Woah Nelly!  And how many other threads are there like this one?  Five?  Seven?  A Dozen?  (C_A, please feel free to NOT answer this very rhetorical question..)  I shudder to think of it.

     3.    It will take time and a bunch of polls. Even if we get motivated and excited about it, it will take time to determine the particulars of this.  I will start the ball rolling with a new thread and poll starting with accuracy standards for the purpose of competition.  I will start with the current Accuracy Standards listed within the Ranking System and we can fine tune from there.

Slingers!   Nothing will be decided until decisions are made!  Let’s get busy!

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Camo-sling on Mar 19th, 2013 at 1:10am
Just having some fun with the older posts, will delete them if asked.

LightSlinger, those categories are pretty accurate. You summed up every viewpoint very well - especially the anti-sportsmen category. As you said, if you are against any form of rules, the sport isn't for you but the hobby definitely is.

It's a great idea to compile all our decisions and viewpoints through the use of polls. That will consolidate our rule system. We should leave the polls open for a set amount of time, for example 3-6 months before a definite opinion is found. I will work on putting together a document or thread which confirms our decisions and rules. If for any reason someone wants to appeal the rules in the future they may make a thread or we can set up a period where we all review the rules after we have tested them for a good amount of time.

Each rule we make should leave room for common sense or allow the ability of the judges to make an executive decision based on fairness and safety. For example, as said by Stephen, a newcomer using a 20ft sling in pirouette style should be over ruled as restricted for safety reasons.

If any slinger wants to compete in a standardized slinging competition they may either follow Balearic leagues or create a league for themselves. The federation we are creating should be the consensus of the community to reach majority decisions. The consensus could potentially suit you in some ways and contradict your views in others. That being said, we must leave time for the community to voice their opinions until a clear shared viewpoint is found.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by LightSlinger on Mar 19th, 2013 at 1:30am

Camo-sling wrote on Mar 19th, 2013 at 1:10am:
Just having some fun with the older posts, will delete them if asked.

LightSlinger, those categories are pretty accurate. You summed up every viewpoint very well - especially the anti-sportsmen category. As you said, if you are against any form of rules, the sport isn't for you but the hobby definitely is.

It's a great idea to compile all our decisions and viewpoints through the use of polls. That will consolidate our rule system. We should leave the polls open for a set amount of time, for example 3-6 months before a definite opinion is found. I will work on putting together a document or thread which confirms our decisions and rules. If for any reason someone wants to appeal the rules in the future they may make a thread or we can set up a period where we all review the rules after we have tested them for a good amount of time.

Each rule we make should leave room for common sense or allow the ability of the judges to make an executive decision based on fairness and safety. For example, as said by Stephen, a newcomer using a 20ft sling in pirouette style should be over ruled as restricted for safety reasons.

If any slinger wants to compete in a standardized slinging competition they may either follow Balearic leagues or create a league for themselves. The federation we are creating should be the consensus of the community to reach majority decisions. The consensus could potentially suit you in some ways and contradict your views in others. That being said, we must leave time for the community to voice their opinions until a clear shared viewpoint is found.


Not a problem.  If I thought they were too over the top, I'd delete em myself!  LOL.   I just don't want to have to explain that kind of humor to my 12 year old daughter...     :-[  

Yep, I like the polls.  I dunno if we need to leave em open for quite that long, but I think maybe that I will adopt Masia's technique.  When the poll drifts down and out of sight, we'll call it good..


Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 21st, 2013 at 11:55am
Nice summation ls :thumb:

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Morphy on Mar 22nd, 2013 at 5:54pm

Whipartist wrote on Oct 9th, 2011 at 10:36pm:
I totally agree with Thunder Chief.  The most popular martial arts competition is MMA, not Tae Kwon Do or Boxing.  The reason is that MMA is more inclusive and fits better with the martial spirit, which is to win fights.    

I believe slinging competition should avoid becoming too much of a standardized sport which detracts from the interest in the sling as a primative weapon by making it into a mere golf club.

Slings and ammo can't be standardize any more than you can standardize sling technique.  People are all different.  In sports that involve the use of weapons, the varying and diverse technology of the weapons themselves is always part of the sport.  Let's face it, slings will never be anything more than stone age technology, even if we start using teflon coated cradles!  

Compare slinging to archery.  Not every shooter shoots the same exact bow or length or weight of arrow for that matter.  They choose their weapons for the fit they have with their body.  The point is hitting the standardized target to acquire maximum points.  

If slings and ammo become standardized, many expert slingers worldwide would be excluded from participation.  Standardizing is only helpful when creating a sport out of nothing, such as baseball or basketball.  When taking a weapon that is embedded in culture and history and making it into a sport, standardization of the weapon itself must be avoided at all costs.  What if the standardized sling or ammo is not ideal for many would be participants?  I for instance, simply couldn't compete with balearic weight ammo.  I don't mind competing against those who use it.  My ammo is around 1.5-2.5oz but travels at higher velocity then the average Balearic slingers seem to use.  I say as long as you can put that stone on that target with good force, you've got the point.  

Also, using a 100" sling offers no more advantage to a slinger in a competition then a 5" sling does.  It's not as if it reaches further out to the target before release.  The release is always behind the throwing line with any length sling since release is perpendicular to the target.  Let there be freedom with sling length, ammo weight, etc....  

There should be no restrictions upon technique either.  That is not helpful.  All styles should be allowed without any restrictions.  This creates a culture in which the understanding of the sling increases world wide.  If the slingers who use Figure 8's win all the competitions, it won't be long until most slingers try to emulate that technique and continue to perfect it.  This is good as a way to rediscover history and to rediscover this weapon.

So in the interest of preserving the sling as a primative weapon and minimal standardizaton, I believe the Balearic point system and target is good to keep since it's already been in use for a long time.

If the targets, point system, etc, were to be changed I'd suggest two potential changes.

One:  I believe the sling is capable of better than Diana level accuracy and so I believe a small concentration point should be put in the center of the target to reward those capable of hitting it.  The point value for such a hit should be very high.  I suggest a head sized circle or smaller.

Two: In the spirit of the sling as a weapon, I believe the Balearic target should possibly be changed to be made of at least one two two sheets of good cardboard or other uniform penetrable material.  A shot which does not penetrate through the cardboard and fly or fall out the back side of the target, does not count as a point because it did not contain enough power.  The target would of course have to be rotated for every round if this was done. There may be other creative ways to accomplish the same goals, such as energy meters or something like that.  

In Australia in target competitions for whip cracking, they use styrofoam cups.  If the cups aren't cut sliced by the whip, the points are reduced, even if the cup is hit or broken.  

I believe throwing distances should include a round at 40 meters or more as well as shorter distances.  Keeping ranges overly short for all rounds ignores the potential for the longer ranges slings are capable of and it rewards those who put inadequate power into their technique.  

I am interested in the sling as the primative weapon it is.  Accuracy and power at range were the goals of our ancestors and they should be our goals as well.  

I do believe ammo can be standardized in quality if a selection of weights are used.  But I believe the best would be to just keep using well selected stones.

I am opposed to uses of non-weaponized ammo of any weight, just as I wouldn't want to participate in an archery competition that used suction cups on the tips of the arrows.  Slings are primative weapons in which the potentials are as of yet unknown.  Let's not choke out the possibility that free and open competitions might provide to someone who's very skilled the opportunity to influence the future of slinging through the success of their chosen combination of technique, sling and ammo.  

Anyway, my two cents.


I don't have enough time to read this whole thread, but I've always been in agreement with Whip Artist on sling accuracy.  The only thing I think might not be needed would be the cardboard penetration part.  I would also up the distance to 50 meters.  I sling from 30-40 meters on targets far smaller than the Diana.  It's only a matter of time when more people get interested in slinging that 30- 40 meters on 2 liter bottles will be the norm, not the exception...  We need to be forward-thinking here IMO.  

As far as standardization, the only need to standardize in slinging is if there was new technology created in slinging that offered a significant advantage to accuracy.  Otherwise it is overly stifling and exclusionary, and for what purpose?  In what way are we making it more fair by excluding anyone who doesn't want to sling in the way defined by someone else? To borrow a phrase from (I believe) Masi, the better you get at slinging, the more of a sling snob you become.  In other words you have certain ways of doing things that have naturally evolved because they work for you.  And the longer you have been slinging the more particular you will likely be on your gear and style.  That is how it should be.  Try and force people to change and not only do you do a big disservice to the community as a whole but you will almost certainly inspire the creation of a separate competition that will not be so stifling and will almost certainly end up putting yours out of business.

Let it be about hitting a standardized target with a loosely defined sling (anything goes except mechanical implements?)  and any ammo that the person chooses to use. If someone chooses to use tennis balls when everyone else is using stones or lead, that is their choice. They will probably lose, especially at longer distances, but that's their choice.

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by LightSlinger on Mar 24th, 2013 at 5:20am
"Sling Snob"... LMAO  I love it.. ;D

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by jax on Apr 4th, 2013 at 1:18pm
So where are we with this?Is there a newer and more pertinent thread someone could direct me to? I have been out of the loop.

 Brett

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by jax on May 3rd, 2013 at 9:55pm
From the sound of crickets on this whole board I would say,,,,,,,doesn't matter?

Brett

Title: Re: World Standards of Slinging
Post by Camo-sling on May 4th, 2013 at 4:50am
Jax,

Nothing has really been continued from this thread except for two or three polls confirming the decisions sling type, length and technique will not be standardized. Although it is a consensus that they will be regulated by common sense to increase safety. For example, not letting a newbie aim for a target at 10 meters using a 5 meter sling and pirouette style.

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