We need to get those egg heads from Mythbusters on the case. I'd like to see high speed film on lead gland hitting ballistics gelatin at full power by a more experienced slinger.

Already been done. Watch episode 1 of deadliest warrior, they fire a glande at a head.

Slings can achive energy levels of firearms, but this doesn't translate into deadlines. Bullets will almost always be more efficient killers.

By throwing  a brick at you I can achieve "energy levels" ie kinetic energy, beyond that of a firearm. But it´s not a very good comparison. You can´t compare a sling with a .45.

wrote on May 14^th, 2010 at 9:14pm:

By throwing  a brick at you I can achieve "energy levels" ie kinetic energy, beyond that of a firearm. But it´s not a very good comparison. You can´t compare a sling with a .45.

Have you used a long sling before?? If so, then you'll know that indeed it does compare pretty well.

that deadliest warrior test was horrible. that guy looked like he didn't know what he was doing, and he had a child sized sling. I am sure most of the people on here could throw that lead bullet faster than him. you may notice when it shows the bullet, it is already deformed from multiple throws. that is because he missed hundreds of times before he finally hit the wood target. he was not a good slinger. they said that the sling was inaccurate because that is what they expected, and there was no good slinger to prove them wrong. just watch other episodes of the show, you will notice that some of the tests are edited to show the results that they expect. the worst example is the "IRA vs Taliban" episode, during the reliability test of the AR-15 vs the AK-47. when the IRA guy is walking around shooting the targets, you can tell the muzzle flashes are animated in, and when he stops and says "it's jammed," you can see that his dust cover is closed, showing that he didn't even try to fire. it looks like they tried to make the AR-15 jam, but they couldn't do it, anyone with any experience with the rifle would just have used a bad mag to stage a jam. the show used computer generated muzzle flashes, dubbed gunfire noises, and a cooperative "tester"

I would never take anything seriously on that show.

Guys before we get all carried away, let's get a few things into perspective.

A sling is just a tool. It is not powerful or weak of itself, the power comes from the slinger although like all tools, a sling allows a person to use that power more effectively. So if we're making comparisons, who's the slinger?Is it Brian Grubbs, C-A or some old guy like me? Makes a huge difference.

With any gun the power is fixed by the nature and size of the weapon.

I looked up .45 cal on Wiki and the KE of different rounds varies from a min. of 356 ft.lbs to a max. of 544 ft.lbs.

Now a really good strong slinger just might sling a 5 oz stone at 70 m/s or 156 mph which gives a KE of 252 ft.lbs which is well under even the lowest power .45 cartridge.

A much more normal figure would be a 3 oz. stone at 40 m/sto give an energy of around 50 ft.lbs.

No slings are not firearms, but they can still be quite effective weapons in capable hands. Just accept them for what they are.

No comparison. Considerring firearms "idiot wesapons" is quite
Disrepectful. IMHO. They are an art just like any other. A sling, bow,
Atlatl, or gun will not perform if proper respect is not paid to it's use.
While any "idiot" may be able to hit a man at 20 yards with a 45 not
Any idiot can make that weaspon perform to it's full potential. With a
Pistol and a well trained marksman the power ids awe inspiring. The
Ability to drop several individual in a matter of a few seconds comes into
Play.  And at the distance of 50 yards you'd better be a dang good marksman
To hit a man. How many of you who claim a 45 to be an idiot weapon have ever
Used one? At 20 yards being able to consistently hit your target requires
Discipline and practice. Just like the sling. While serviceable levels may be easier
To aquire with a firearm than with a sling experts are still experts. This requires
Years of diligent pracice.  I have no doubt that i could start with my 45 in holster
And draw, shoot, and drop before most slingers could wind up to throw in a
Standoff fight.  The energy levels of sling projectiles are truly impressive but
There are many reasons why we carry 45's instead of slings in combat.

leadrocks wrote on May 14^th, 2010 at 10:24pm:

I have no doubt that i could start with my 45 in holster and draw, shoot, and drop before most slingers could wind up to throw in a standoff fight.  .

Plus you'd hit your target repeatedly. The other downside of powerful sling throws is that already poor accuracy and the time between shots drops right off.

leadrocks wrote on May 14^th, 2010 at 10:24pm:

Considering firearms "idiot weapons" is quite Disrespectful. IMHO. They are an art just like any other.

Idiot weapon refers to the absolute minimum skill reqired to be able to shoot into massed targets and hit in the general vicinity of what you aim at. Guns, being a line of sight weapon (unlike slings) requiring no gross movement (unlike bows and atlatls) is the epitome of an idiot weapon. Any idiot can point a gun close enough to a target to hit within a couple meters at effective range. "Idiot" is in no way a reflection of the skill required to become proficient, good, or even a marksman. It also has no bearing on the maintenance required to keep the weapon in optimum condition.

As for energy levels, yes a glans has drastically lower terminal ballistics and the foot-pounds are less; but I'd bet that the stopping power and hydrostatic shock of a 2 oz lead glans and a .45 Colt at any distance outside of point blank range are comparable.

Mr. Boss wrote on May 14^th, 2010 at 9:56pm:

wrote on May 14th, 2010 at 9:14pm: By throwing  a brick at you I can achieve "energy levels" ie kinetic energy, beyond that of a firearm. But it´s not a very good comparison. You can´t compare a sling with a .45. Have you used a long sling before?? If not, then you'll know that indeed it does compare pretty well.

Firstly I was talking about how the amount of kinetic energy a certain weapon/projectile generates  is by no means a good measure for its effectiveness, see the hand thrown brick example.
Secondly there are a lot of reasons why a long sling is a much less effective weapon than a .45 handgun, and they are so obvious that  discussion is hardly necessary....

If you're comparing the amount of energy generated by each then a sling, in capable hands, measures up well to some firearms, like a 45.  If you're saying that you'd rather take a sling into battle than a 45 then you're both stupid and crazy.  

Yea that would be a funny sight.

 A weapon is only an idiot weapon in the hands of an idiot.  

 You pick up your idiot weapon .45 there and go have a shooting match with a navy seal, he'll make you look like an idiot all right.

LukeWebb wrote on May 15^th, 2010 at 3:54pm:

A weapon is only an idiot weapon in the hands of an idiot.    You pick up your idiot weapon .45 there and go have a shooting match with a navy seal, he'll make you look like an idiot all right.

That depends on who here you're talking to, but I agree with you in principle.

an idiot weapon is a phrase i coined to differentiate between a weapon that requires a lot of practice, time and skill and has no static aiming mechanism. And one that can be picked up and be used reasonably effectively, by any idiot, in a matter of days or even hours.

it does not indicate the mentality of the user.

slings are powerful and potentially deadly tools - in trained and praticed hands.
firearms are deadly in ANYONE'S hands.

Curious Aardvark wrote on May 15^th, 2010 at 5:05pm:

an idiot weapon is a phrase i coined to differentiate between a weapon that requires a lot of practice, time and skill and has no static aiming mechanism. And one that can be picked up and be used reasonably effectively, by any idiot, in a matter of days or even hours. it does not indicate the mentality of the user. slings are powerful and potentially deadly tools - in trained and praticed hands. firearms are deadly in ANYONE'S hands.

Exactly. Its about minimum proficiency, and the term has shown up other places as well (probably a few founders). Firearms are deadly in the hands of a complete novice, and getting basic proficiency with them can be done in a few hours. Good luck pulling that off with a sling. Of course, in both cases, the well practiced have a huge advantage over the novices.

Fair enough. My apologies for the misconceptions. According to aussie's
Figures the sling still falls well under the amount of energy that the 45
Has.

 Yes, well I would be careful using that term to much.  If I took my slings to a sportsmans show and I called everyone elses things, (guns etc.) idiot weapons they would probably use them on me.  It also maybe doesn't look good (a little snobby,) for visitors on here to see you using that term as they might deem it insulting and it could blackmark slinging a little bit.  You would be best to find a term that would sound less insulting to someone who uses a gun, (not me, but someone.)  To say all guns are easy to use is not true either, some take much much training to operate properly, (like high tech sniper rifles,) and the effectiveness is relative of course, you can pick up a sling the first time and hurl a rock a long ways, you can pick up a gun the first time and fire it in the general direction of the target, you can pick up a sling everyday for 3 years and hit a wine bottle with a figure 8, you can pick up a gun everyday for 3 years and hit a penny thrown in the air.  And someone learning to use a more difficult weapon to learn to use can in fact be more dangerous than someone learning to use a less difficult weapon, it all depends on the person.

 Anyway, this is off topic, and it could turn into an argument, so post a reply to this if you want and mum's the word. ;)

leadrocks wrote on May 15^th, 2010 at 6:42pm:

Fair enough. My apologies for the misconceptions. According to aussie's Figures the sling still falls well under the amount of energy that the 45 Has.

Well, not necessarily. It is [u] possible [u/] to achieve the kinetic energy of a 45. but is difficult.


mv^2)/2= KE   75g=typical sling projectile weight   111m/s=accepted sling projectile velocity   1/2(.075kg)(111m/s)^2=460J   .22 caliber long rifle=190J, .45 caliber Automatic Colt Pistol=450J

 The best comparison would be a .45 black powder gun, as it shoots a ball.  I'm not sure if a black powder flintlock would be as fast as a modern .45 so it might be a fairer comparison.

A 45 blackpowder has considerably lower energy than a 45
Acp. I have one. It shoots a 143 grain lead ball at around 775-850 fps
And a 45 acp is 230 grain bullet at 950-1000fps.

 My dad has one he bought but he has never shot it, (has the blackpowder and balls though,) his is a shotgun though, but it can fire the solid ball as well.  That would be a better comparison to a sling as a black powder gun does a different sort of damage from a modern weapon, much more bone crunching shock power as you would get with a sling and less on the penetration.  Though the blackpowder is still a more powerful piece of kit in my opinion, a sling can load considerably faster than any variety, (matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, etc.) of black powder gun, so in a way it could be an advantage, what do you think, perhaps more than a 3-1 faster rate of fire for a sling than a flintlock?

Mr. Boss wrote on May 15^th, 2010 at 10:16pm:

leadrocks wrote on May 15th, 2010 at 6:42pm: Fair enough. My apologies for the misconceptions. According to aussie's Figures the sling still falls well under the amount of energy that the 45 Has. Well, not necessarily. It is [u] possible [u/] to achieve the kinetic energy of a 45. but is difficult. mv^2)/2= KE   75g=typical sling projectile weight   111m/s=accepted sling projectile velocity   1/2(.075kg)(111m/s)^2=460J   .22 caliber long rifle=190J, .45 caliber Automatic Colt Pistol=450J

To be fair the assertion is not that a sling is as effective a defensive weapon as a .45 cal pistol, only that a sling stone could have the same kinetic energy as a bullet fired from such a pistol. I doubt anyone would seriously suggest that a slinger with no cover could successfully defend himself against a gunman armed with a .45 or realistically any pistol.

As you say it is possible, in that it is not beyond the bounds of human capability, like running a sub 10 sec 100m or even a 2hr 10min marathon. BUT there would be very few people who could actually do it.

You are obviously familiar with the kinetic energy formula. Here's the formula for centripetal force:-    F = mv^2/r

Figures you quote are, mass of 75g (a bit less than 3 oz.) and a slinging speed of 111 m/s (almost 250 mph). You use an exceptionally long sling of 2m and with your arm outstretched will give you an efective radius of somwhere around 3m.

Plug those into the formula and you'll find the centripetal force, ie. the pull of the cords is 308 N (almost 70 lbs) and that is a minimum assuming 100% efficiency with no allowance for the tremendous wind drag that a sling going so fast will generate. The real force will likely be closer to 100 lbs. All of which your little pinkies have to hold with only a loop and a release knot and then  release with superbly precise timing. Are you sure you can really do that? I'll bet there are some that could but they would be rare.

So the assertion may be theoretically correct but in reality is very rarely attainable.

I didn't actually post the formula btw, it was from another member a long time ago. And yes I agree.

 I wonder if there is any record of the use of slings be used in the american civil war?  If not to hurl glandes or stones but to throw some sort of incendiary or explosive?
 Oh, and in this comparison are we talking about slinging a .45 caliber lead glande from the sling as well?

A Sling was still on 200 m and, in addition, very efficiently.
And to compare a caliber 45 to one of a Sling is not especially clever.
In Palestina one can see even today what for damage Slings arrange. Soldiers thereby die. And a Sling is also in skilled children a hand a deadly weapon. It is to be thought wrong which takes down the effect from the protection alone. The Slingen uses a physical effect. A little bit what is often wrong recognised.

LukeWebb wrote on May 16^th, 2010 at 11:18am:

I wonder if there is any record of the use of slings be used in the american civil war?  If not to hurl glandes or stones but to throw some sort of incendiary or explosive?  Oh, and in this comparison are we talking about slinging a .45 caliber lead glande from the sling as well?

45. caliber gland would be way too light to even get the sling going.

I am having difficulty trying to understand the need to compare the sling with firearms. We all know that slings can generate a lot of power. There really is no need to try and classify them on the same level as firearms. Do archers strive to create bows at home that can rival the firepower of tanks. Its a dumb argument just have fun with it. Besides boasting about the power could have negative affects.

dork wrote on May 16^th, 2010 at 3:49pm:

I am having difficulty trying to understand the need to compare the sling with firearms. We all know that slings can generate a lot of power. There really is no need to try and classify them on the same level as firearms. Do archers strive to create bows at home that can rival the firepower of tanks. Its a dumb argument just have fun with it. Besides boasting about the power could have negative affects.

Exactly what I think.

Nobody here needs to be convinced that a sling can be a very powerful and dangerous weapon in the right (or wrong) hands. That's all I need to know.

Hear, hear!

This question comes up about twice a year. Never been much new to say about it since the original thread (CanDo I think - where did he get to?)

And there's nothing generally accepted about a velocity of 111m/s. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I would be surprised if anyone here (long slings or not) gets anywhere near that. There might be one or two that get to 70m/s, and that more than halves the K.E. estimates from 111m/s.

 I'll throw my hat in with that.  What do you think jacks would do when thrown from a sling? I don't have any or I would try it, I suppose it is kind of a silly thing but it's a very different shape from a conventional ammo and due to its congruent weight for all sides it should fly straight.

It is back to the question, which I admit I haven't seen well answered, of projectile velocity.

Thom Richardson (article on this site) slung at specialized equipment (for measuring the velocity of bullets), and got pretty low velocities (around 30 m/s)-- but admits that he didn't sling very well, and also that the difficulty of slinging  at the equipment kept his shot velocity

So higher than 32 m/s. But how much higher ? On YouTube, a guy seems to record 38 m/s. Here, people seem to think 45-50 m/s pretty easily reachable-- but often by measuring departure cracks and arrival smacks, which is not hugely reliable.

An experiment would probably be pretty easy to set up (filiming a slung projectile passing by two upright markers, for instance), but I haven't seen one yet (and apologies for not carrying one out myself). 70 m/s seems high. MrBoss's 111 m/s makes one wonder how it's measured; in any case, it does not represent the speed achieved by a man slinging with a "normal" length sling.

I would say:

40 g lead bullet
velocity at 50 m/s
50 joules

10 times less KE than a .45 (but probably still enough to penetrate the human body). Oh, sorry, I see Aussie's made this point already. I agree with him.

I understand your reservations regarding the Audacity method in that the sound of the sling may indeed occur a significant time interval after the proectile has left the pouch which would indeed give a higher than actual calculated velocity. All I can say is that I have cross-checked my own results by examining how far my slung tennis ball travelled between video frames and had excellent correlation. I am perfectly convinced that, in at least my case, the method gives very accurate results.

However I have thought about the problem and suggest the following correction technique be applied. Preferably using an observer, see how close you can get to your target wall you can get so the sound of the impact and the crack occur simultaneously. Assuming this distance is constant, you could deduct this from the normal distance to target when recording the sound interval for an actua velocity measurement. Try it! I would love to hear what results you get.

I use 150 g of lead balls for the wide shooting. I shoot this with a Sling of silk and with a "run length" of 1 m.
How to me is own, I shoot with a retention Toggle.
Even observers are not to be seen in the situation these balls in the flight.

Thearos wrote on May 16^th, 2010 at 8:38pm:

It is back to the question, which I admit I haven't seen well answered, of projectile velocity. Thom Richardson (article on this site) slung at specialized equipment (for measuring the velocity of bullets), and got pretty low velocities (around 30 m/s)-- but admits that he didn't sling very well, and also that the difficulty of slinging  at the equipment kept his shot velocity So higher than 32 m/s. But how much higher ? On YouTube, a guy seems to record 38 m/s. Here, people seem to think 45-50 m/s pretty easily reachable-- but often by measuring departure cracks and arrival smacks, which is not hugely reliable. An experiment would probably be pretty easy to set up (filiming a slung projectile passing by two upright markers, for instance), but I haven't seen one yet (and apologies for not carrying one out myself). 70 m/s seems high. MrBoss's 111 m/s makes one wonder how it's measured; in any case, it does not represent the speed achieved by a man slinging with a "normal" length sling. I would say: 40 g lead bullet velocity at 50 m/s 50 joules 10 times less KE than a .45 (but probably still enough to penetrate the human body). Oh, sorry, I see Aussie's made this point already. I agree with him.

70-75m/s is about what I estimated Mr Bray needed for his world record throw. There has been no evidence to back a value of 111m/s by any contemporary slinger. I now think Mr Bray's throw may have been towards the lower end of those figures - it's a tricky matter of estimating the air resistance on the stone he threw, because this velocity is inferred from the distance he threw.

May I add that mrBoss also claimed pretty outrageous distances ( further than the current world record I remember), and those claims have  to my knowledge never been proven. I would take his claims considering sling speed with a grain of salt.

No, I'm sure Id be able to break a world record. BUT, I don't have the $ money $ to get a plane ticket to got to Baldwin Lake in Cali, which would be the best place suitable for completing a world record because its a whopping 6700 ft above sea level and smooth surface. Unlike where I live, where its 600 ft above sea level which makes it a billion times harder because the air is thick like a BRICK WALL. Sooooo, yea.

Even without the cash to make that "necessary trip" you could give a demonstration under less ideal circumstances too demonstrate this alledgedly world record breaking talent. I seem to remember that board members in your area have offered to witness such an event, until then I stay sceptical. Don´t take it personal, but claims that you can break an actual world record don´t mean zilch until you back them up with some actual proof of such competence (like slinging near the world record without actually breaking it, f.i. under less than ideal circumstances).

Mr. Boss wrote on May 17^th, 2010 at 7:52pm:

No, I'm sure Id be able to break a world record. BUT, I don't have the $ money $ to get a plane ticket to got to Baldwin Lake in Cali, which would be the best place suitable for completing a world record because its a whopping 6700 ft above sea level and smooth surface. Unlike where I live, where its 600 ft above sea level which makes it a billion times harder because the air is thick like a BRICK WALL. Sooooo, yea.

You don't need to travel to California for starters, but what you should do is get independent, reliable, verifcation of what you can do at home. I, for one, would love to have confirmation that you can get even 300m. I suggest you arrange with your school principal or someone of equal standing in the community who would be prepared to sign an affadavit that he had witnessed your slinging and measured the distances thrown accurately with a GPS. It would silence any critics once and for all.

Who signs those??

Thearos wrote on May 16^th, 2010 at 8:38pm:

So higher than 32 m/s. But how much higher ? On YouTube, a guy seems to record 38 m/s. Here, people seem to think 45-50 m/s pretty easily reachable-- but often by measuring departure cracks and arrival smacks, which is not hugely reliable. I would say: 40 g lead bullet velocity at 50 m/s 50 joules

Using the frame by frame method for meassurment, I reached an average of 40 meters per seccond at ten meters. Instead of using the sling crack as the release point, I freeezed framed the moment the rock leaves the pouch and started from there.

This was done with a 150 g rock however, not a small 40g glande. This gives about 120 joule, similar to a .22, but still way below a magnum.

Someone measured another of my shots in the sling vs. head video and came up with an average 45 meters per seccond at ten meters.

Mr. Boss wrote on May 18^th, 2010 at 10:52am:

Who signs those??

Your legal system in the US will probably be a bit different than ours so you will have to do some investigation for yourself. Here a person who wants or needs to, can sign a 'statutory declaration' stating that something is true, which has the same weight in law as giving evidence in court (ie. you could be charged with perjury if the declaration is false) I'm sure you will have something similar.

If you were to get someone of standing in the community such as a school principal, police officer, medical practitioner, etc to witness you slinging and accurately describe the experiment and how they measured the distance there could be no argument. I suggest you use GPS as the units are now quite common and give a very high degree of certainty over so long a distance.

Here in the us i would find someone who is licensed as a notary.
All this means is that they have an official stamp that means they
Witnessed something to be legit.  They handle land and vehicle title
Transfers. Most tag agents are notaries. Many legal secrataries
And bankers carry the license. Get a reputable witness and a notary to
Stamp the affidavit, you should be good. Check with guinness to see
What it would take for them to accept it.