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Message started by TheAznValedictorian on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 3:08pm

Title: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by TheAznValedictorian on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 3:08pm
To be more specific, during the 3rd Century C.E.

Most of the reliable people that I have talked to thinks that there weren't that many. Also, if I remember correctly, I have heard somewhere that there was only 1 independent unit of slingers.

However, I needed a more concise and accurate answers. What are your opinions on the total number of slingers? If possible, can you also provide the academic sources?

Thank you

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by David Morningstar on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 7:25pm
Its going to be all but impossible to answer that question, unfortunately. Slingers were most  often auxiliaries i.e. mercenaries and werent part of the formal legion structure. They could be poor quality local bodies recruited cheaply or more expensive reputable companies like the Balearic slingers. Unless it is directly mentioned that such-and-such an army had 'x' hundred slingers then you are into the realms of guesswork.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 8:11pm
In C3rd AD, or even earlier, the Roman army is pretty formalized-- i.e. with units, be it legionary or auxiliary (on which I suppose there is an article in the Pauly Wissowa encyclopaedia s.v. "Auxilia")-- so it's probably possible to see if there are any full time units of slingers (as opposed to archers, or cavalry, or just spear and shield grunts). But true that in campaigns, you might have the allies and local levies-- the slingers (and clubmen) on Trajan's column are an example

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Fundibularius on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 5:25am
I also think it is quite impossible to quantify. There must be big differences in the levies of troops in the different wars which took place in the 3rd century (esp. against Pyrrhus, and then against the Carthaginians in the 1st and even more in the 2nd Punic War), and the possibilities for Rome to recruit slingers at all.

As the Balearic Islands were in Carthaginian hands until the end of the century, Rome probably had no access to the mercenaries there, but maybe to Rhodian or Cretan slingers, apart from the slinging auxilia they could raise in Italy itself.

I would say that they generally used a smaller number of slingers than in later centuries, but that is just a guess. :-/

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mighty_Mantis on May 16th, 2010 at 11:59pm
i wonder how powerful a sling was against roman personal.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Steven on May 17th, 2010 at 7:59am
Powerful enough that specific medical instructions were written for the removal of sling projectiles.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by curious_aardvark on May 17th, 2010 at 1:20pm
and special sling bulet removal tools made too :-)

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Centrifugal Sin on May 17th, 2010 at 7:30pm
I'd bet a good 300,000 shepherds over the imperial age of Rome were lucky enough to set out on the trip of a lifetime.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Lycurgus on May 18th, 2010 at 2:37am

Centrifugal Sin wrote on May 17th, 2010 at 7:30pm:
I'd bet a good 300,000 shepherds over the imperial age of Rome were lucky enough to set out on the trip of a lifetime.


Quite often a nice one-way trip

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Atlum on Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:31am
I once asked a local roman reenactment group this question, and they said that it was not uncommon for there to be as many slingers as archers. Mainly for strategic reasons. While the enemy raised thier shileds to block the incoming arrows the slingers would aim for their exposed chests or heads.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by slingbadger on Jul 25th, 2010 at 6:43am
Slingers occupied the lowest tier of the Roman army, so were rarely written about.
The mercenaries got more press
Battle of Ekonomos, book XIX
 But when Hamilcar saw that his men were being overpowered, and that the Greeks in constantly increasing numbers were making their way to camp, he brought up slingers, who came from the Balearic Isles, and numbered at least 1000

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Jaegoor on Jul 26th, 2010 at 1:38pm
In Parziwal of Wolfram von Eschenbach, Slinger are mentioned as a special weapon type.

Ash brook writes: her number was big and they were feared on all battlefields.


In an other work of ash brook he mentions like the woman of the count Willehalm with her virgins by this fling from stones, to many moors then death brought.

So the Sling not only a weapon of farmers.

The book is called will stalk.

Full of suspense also, because ash brook in in the book battles themselves described joined in the struggle.

It is an eyewitness report

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by kuggur slingdog on Jul 29th, 2010 at 10:14am

Atlum wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:31am:
I once asked a local roman reenactment group this question, and they said that it was not uncommon for there to be as many slingers as archers. Mainly for strategic reasons. While the enemy raised thier shileds to block the incoming arrows the slingers would aim for their exposed chests or heads.

Hm, I´d say the other way round would be more logical.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by ilovepancakes on Jul 30th, 2010 at 11:06am

wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 10:14am:

Atlum wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:31am:
I once asked a local roman reenactment group this question, and they said that it was not uncommon for there to be as many slingers as archers. Mainly for strategic reasons. While the enemy raised thier shileds to block the incoming arrows the slingers would aim for their exposed chests or heads.

Hm, I´d say the other way round would be more logical.


You have to remember that you can see an arrow in flight and not a sling bullet. Part of an arrow vollies effectivness is the terror it induces in the recieving side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKFNmtrN3K8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWyFWFJ0Ywk


Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by kuggur slingdog on Jul 31st, 2010 at 10:30am
You think you can see an arrow coming at you at a flat trajectory better than a gland? I´d say there is very little difference.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by ilovepancakes on Aug 1st, 2010 at 2:37pm

wrote on Jul 31st, 2010 at 10:30am:
You think you can see an arrow coming at you at a flat trajectory better than a gland? I´d say there is very little difference.



No I don't think you can see an arrow on a flat trajectory any more then you can see a glans. Roman reenactment group was mentioned in Atlums post. While I am not saying the arrows were not released on a flat trajectory, most of your arrows and sling bullets would be released in the first missle phase which is at close to maximux effective range.


Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Aussie on Aug 2nd, 2010 at 1:38am
I'm a bit bemused by the common assertion that you cannot see an incoming slingstone whereas you can see an incoming arrow. Admittedly I have never been on the receiving end of slingstones launched in anger but I can readily see the stones I have actually slung as they fly away from me. Why should observing incomers be impossible?

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by nemo on Aug 2nd, 2010 at 11:12am
I cannot vouch for not seeing sling stones while flying at me, but I can say personally that it is possible to see incoming arrows being volleyed or shot at you directly. I reckon though personally slings are just as tough to see as golf balls and I dont know if people on the green can see incoming golf balls, but that would be the closest comparisson I could think.
Another point though is that if they shoot with the sun to their backs, it is near impossible to see an arrow coming at you.

Nemo

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Fundibularius on Aug 2nd, 2010 at 5:05pm
Being able to see arrows/slingstones or not is secondary, I guess. You can't run away from them anyway.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by David Morningstar on Aug 3rd, 2010 at 11:37am

Its easy to see a sling stone when you know where its going and pick it up early in its flight while its still close to you.

If somebody else slings and you dont see it leave the pouch then you have very little chance of finding it in the air mid-flight.

If faced with professional slingers shooting from 200+ yards away with lead ammo, you will hear the bullets flying and hitting but you will probably see nothing at all.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Aussie on Aug 4th, 2010 at 6:08pm

David Morningstar wrote on Aug 3rd, 2010 at 11:37am:
Its easy to see a sling stone when you know where its going and pick it up early in its flight while its still close to you.

If somebody else slings and you dont see it leave the pouch then you have very little chance of finding it in the air mid-flight.

If faced with professional slingers shooting from 200+ yards away with lead ammo, you will hear the bullets flying and hitting but you will probably see nothing at all.


Yes, I thought about that later, and lead glandes being smaller would be even harder to see. If a whole company of slingers were 200 m away it would be very difficult to pick out an individual slinger and follow his sling projectile's flight.

Anyway, sling stone or arrow, I really can't see anyone dodging them.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Atlum on Aug 6th, 2010 at 12:50am
Guys I managed to track dow the website for the reenactment gruop. I forgot I had their buiseness card.

http://home.surewest.net/fifi/index9.htm

They also have a page of typical Roman battle tactics including the one from my previous post.

http://www.home.surewest.net/fifi/index20.htm


Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Aug 8th, 2010 at 10:51am
25 yards is (I think) too close for archer and slinger range-- I suppose this is for reenactment purposes ?

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Atlum on Aug 8th, 2010 at 7:28pm

Thearos wrote on Aug 8th, 2010 at 10:51am:
25 yards is (I think) too close for archer and slinger range-- I suppose this is for reenactment purposes ?


I think you read it wrong. It says that the Archers and Slingers advance 25 yds ahead of the legionaries. Putting them at about 75 yds from the enemy.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Aug 9th, 2010 at 5:11am
Oh yes, you're right. Thanks

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Atlum on Aug 29th, 2010 at 6:07pm
Hey I will be seeing the reenactment group this saturday at the Highland games in Pleasanton, CA. I can just ask them the question in person.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Aug 30th, 2010 at 4:50am
A relevant earlier discussion

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1243290093

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Aug 30th, 2010 at 9:21am
I think (but could be proved wrong) that there is no evidence for full-time, specialized slinger auxiliary units in the imperial army (say Augustus to the Severans, C1st BC to AD 250)-- auxiliaries are all-rounder infantry, cavalry, and archers. So slingers in the imperial army are either local levies, allies or mercenaries (the barbarians on Trajan's column), legionaries wih special skills, or auxiliaries on special duties. The slingers in Germanicus' campaigns might be local levies; the "libritores", if they are staff-slingers, might be legionaries or auxiliaries on light duty.

Earlier, during the Republic ? Slingers might be in allied contingents levied in Italy; light skirmishers in the "velites" who chose to fight with sling rather than the usual shield and javelins; specialized contingents, like the slingers sent by the Aitolians to fight at Numantia or by the Attalid kingdom to fight e.g. in the Third Mac. war or in the Achaian War. Caesar in Gaul has a bunch of Baleares, I think-- surely mercenaries.

Conclusion: "the Roman army" at no time had full-time slingers, even when it has full-time soldiers (starting, efectively, in the late Republic); but specific Roman armies have slingers in their ranks, levied, hired, or summoned; ROman soldiers also knew how to sling, and did.  Never huge numbers-- hundreds, a few thousands at most.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by little on Sep 9th, 2010 at 6:36am
im thinking at least a cohort of slingers,  idk but I guess enough to do alot of damage to the enemy;  ppl say that missile weapons were made to soften up the enemy before engagement,  I think they were there to win the battle as quickly as possible,  before the armies shake hands and start beating each other's brains out pretty gruesome, soo if the enemy's army only sent a a few units, in turn the romans can deploy the slingers and virtually destroy those few units to pieces so the legionaries wouldn't have to fight them,  but thats just my hypothesis...

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 3rd, 2010 at 6:53pm
I resume this post because it has stimulated my archaeological passion.
I have even resumed my university books and looked in them for an answer.
I will only speak about my region's contribute to the power of Rome.

And I've found this:
from "Archeologia nelle Marche" (Luni, Banca delle Marche, 2000):
"I Romani... strinsero un trattato con i Piceni nel 299 a.C., nel quale 360'000 Piceni ottennero la fiducia dei Romani (Plinio)". I translate:"Romans made a deal with Piceni in 299 b.C., that 360'000 of them become loyal to Rome". Romans needed a helping hand against Celts, and accorded loyalty to Piceni, the ancient inhabitants of my Region. It is known that Piceni slingers effectively helped the Roman Army in the Trasimeno and Cannae Battles.
from "Storia Romana" (Geraci-Marcone, Le Monnier Università, 2000):
"Gli alleati di Roma... erano obbligati a fornire contingenti di fanti pari a quelli dei legionari, per un totale di due legioni di 4.200/5.000 fanti ciascuna...". It means:"Roman's allies had to give a number of foot soldiers equal to two legions of 4'200-5'000 soldiers both".

If we consider that, at the beginning of the IIIrd century b.C., there where 360'000 Piceni in my region, and that in the Cannae battle (216 b.C.) about 50'000 Roman soldiers were killed (out of 80'000), here's that Picen soldiers were about 10'000; I suppose that slingers must have been less of that number, but not too much because Piceni were renowed for their ability with this kind of weapon.
Hope to have helped a bit!
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 3rd, 2010 at 7:17pm
What the evidence for Piceni slingers ?

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 3rd, 2010 at 9:38pm
Hallo! Basically, the evidences for Piceni slingers are limited to literature (Polibio and Pilinio, "Historiae"), and in a lot of lead glans - a very huge amount of them can be seen in our museums, and can still be found in the fields around the most important town of the ancient region - like Ascoli Piceno (Ausclum) and Fermo (Firmum Picaena).
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 3rd, 2010 at 9:59pm
Thanks. Do you have any specific references to Picenian slingers ? I can't find any in Polybios (he mentions twice Picenum, in the form "Pikentine", 2.21, and once the "land of the Pikenoi", 3.86). I've never heard of Picene slingers.

(On legions: Pol. 3.107 tells us, indeed that the normal consular army is 2 legions + the same amount of allies-- but these are drawn from all of the allies. At Cannae, it's the exceptional complement of 8 legions = 40,000 men + 40,000 allies. At any rate I don't see how you get a figure of 10,000 Piceni ? What's the proportional reasoning you're using ?)

(Not sure where the pop. figure of 360,000 Piceni comes from. You could, I suppose, divide it in two to get the male population, 180,000, and then feed that into a population pyramid to try to figure out the number of men of fighting age, say 18-40. But I still wonder what the source is). To calculate a "proportion of slingers" seems to me even trickier (the allied troops taken by the Romans: are they structured like a legion, i.e. with 1/3 lights, or differently ?)



Thanks for the reference re. sling bullets in Ascoli museum, v interesting. Any ideas of date or context ? (Civil war ?)— Actually, these must be the famous ones, published in CIL (and earlier by Zangemeister), including the famous "feri Pomp(eium)".

Are these still being found in fields ?


Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 3rd, 2010 at 10:10pm
The figure is from Pliny NH 3.13.

The sling bullets from Ascoli may come from the battle of Asculum (89 BC), during the Social War. In other words, the profusion of lead bullets does not reflect any Picene prowess with the sling, but slingers in the ranks of the Roman army that fought against the Italian rebels. Not sure if this works for Firmum ?

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 3rd, 2010 at 10:38pm
More thoughts (and apologies for the triple post). The sling bullets must come from the operations during 89 BC, when Popmpeius Strabo led an army against the Italian rebels. His base was Firmum Picenum, ahd he besieged Asculum; the sling bullets of Ascoli must be those of the besieged, at least in part. All this in Appian's account of the Civil Wars; the ullets published in CIL 9.

Still not convinced that the Piceni are famed slingers (no mention of this in Strabo 5.4, though he's very big on the warlikeness of the various tribes around the Piceni), as opposed to saying that "slings and lead bullets were used by Italians, and specifically the people of Asculum, in 89 BC"-- as in many ancient wars and sieges...

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by WirocuDurotrigon on Dec 4th, 2010 at 4:04am
I think that there must have been a very significant number of specialist cohorts of slingers in the Roman army because of the massive abundancy of evidence, archaeological and historical.

I will deal the second century CE, at the height of Roman power. The Roman army comprised roughly 300,000 men, of which approximately half were auxiliary troops. The vast majority of these auxilia were heavy infantry very like the legions, but the auxilia also comprised cavalry, specialist light infantry and missiles - let's estimate these specialist supporting units to make up maybe a third of the auxiliary army - about fifty thousand men. This would make them about a sixth of the whole Roman army, which is roughly what you would expect from most contemporary battle descriptions: the heavy infantry was by far the most important and numerous with about a tenth of the army being cavalry support, so it is probably reasonable to suggest another tenth to have comprised missile and light infantry.

If the cavalry made up about a tenth of the Roman army, then of our fifty thousand specialist auxilia only twenty thousand are probably foot-soldiers. This force included all sorts - Syrian and Greek archers, Thracian falx-wielders, Caucasian club-men, etc etc - but I'm prepared to bet that slingers made up the majority, because the Romans demonstrated such a preference for them and they feature in so many battles. Maybe 10,000 men then - a thirtieth of the entire Roman army. Twenty cohorts. It doesn't seem too unrealistic.

That's overall. On a practical level, if a standard Roman force comprised about twelve thousand men (one legion plus auxilia and various detachments from all over, with none of the units quite up to their full numbers as seems to have been common), then it probably had about a cohort of slingers in support - Balearics, Rhodians, Spaniards, Britons, Anatolians, or just local shepherds.

Sorry I didn't cite any sources, I don't remember where most of my knowledge comes from. :P

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 4th, 2010 at 4:58am
I don't think there's any evidence, in the imperial army, for specialist, full time cohorts of slingers. Infantry, cavalry, mixed units, archers, yes; in campaigns, Traj. column shows barbarian auxiliaries (club men, slingers)-- but these seem to be levies or ad hoc bodies (like the allied slingers who show up during the Jewish War), not part of the standing army.

Litt sources, e.g. accounts in Tacitus do mention archers and slingers (and "libritores", whatever they are-- staff slingers ? hand catapult guys ?) in battles (not at Mt Graupius, but during Germanicus' battles in early C1st AD; am not familiar with C2nd AD battle narratives: Dio ? Historia Augusta ?); the battlefield at Teutoburger Wald (AD 9), among other stuff, yielded lead sling bullets. So who did the slinging, in the Roman army ? As yet unattested specialist full time units ? Or a mixture of ad hoc levies, auxiliaries and legionaries detached on :slinging duty" ? I favour the latter solution: after all Vegetius tells us that legionaires are trained to throw stones by hand-- and to sling.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 4th, 2010 at 6:56am
Hallo there!
I've provoked a lot of questions... let see if I can even answer to them  :)
Thearos, evidences of Picenian slingers come from all of those glans - a great part of them have been thrown from Picenian slingers, be they enlisted in the Roman Army or on the wall of Asculum, protecting their capital against it. A smaller number of those glans have been used by Venetian auxiliares that helped the Roman repressing the Social War of 91b.C.
I'll post a picture of a sculpture now at the Archaeological Museum in Ascoli:
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/4654/frombolieridiascoli.jpg
(courtesy of www.archart.it); this sculpture has been made to celebrate the victory over the city; those represented are probably Picenian slingers serving the Roman Army, analyzing their poor clothes and the absence of any other weapon, and, most important, the fact that this sculpture has been exposed in front of the city gate just after the Romans conquered it, as a memento.
For the 360'000 Picenian at the beginning of IIIrd Century: Plinius talks about this (Naturalis Historiae, III 18, 110). You've done a very good operation: 360'000:2=180'000 males. Of those, it's easy to find just 10'000 capable of handing a sling or some other weapon.

Howewer, you will never find some ancient historician saying clearly that "Piceni are famous slingers". You have to deduct this by a lot of other evidences, the most important being literature, founding of hundreds of glans, the fact that Picenian's way of warmaking has always been guerrilla-style (in which the sling fits well), and the fact that Piceni have been the last Italic population to fall into the Roman orbit, in the center of Italy - they were tough people: after conquering them, the Romans deported about 1/3 of the population in South West Italy, and another 1/3 in South East.
Howewer, we still find dozens of glans, such as this from my collection:
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1452/ghiandamissile02cons.jpg
found in the shores of the Tronto river, were the Piceni have been involved in their last important battle.

This has been a long off-topic, howewer, but I hope to have been clear enough  :D
For Picenian slingers serving in the Roman Army during the IIIrd Century, check out the Trasimeno and Cannae Battles  ;)
Greetings,
Mauro.



Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 4th, 2010 at 9:36am
Thanks for your reply, v. interesting.

The relief is v. interesting. The style of the information panel is an immediate giveaway: this is not from Ascoli, from the old Museo della Civilta Romana in Rome-EUR, as confirmed by the archart.it site; i.e. the caption may date to the 1930s and is not necessarily reliable. I don't think these are slingers; more likely dancers in a Lupercalia style ritual, with speacial dress.  

The sling bullets of Asculum date to the siege of 90-89: they do not show that the Piceni were famous slingers, only that slings were used during the siege-- by the Roman besiegers and the defenders. In other words, the sling bullets are linked to a particular event and not to local practice.

There is no mention of Picene slingers in the account of Trasimene (the ambush by the Carthaginians leads to close in sword fighting) and Cannae (where Polybios and Livy mention Baleares). There is no source that says "the Piceni are famous slingers", but there are plenty of sources saying that "the Baleares / Achaians / Akarnanians / Rhodians" are very good with the sling"-- i.e. when people were good with slings, other people usually noticed.

I would conclude that the Piceni were not specially good at slinging; they may have slung, and in fact did sling when they had to fight on their own soil during their war with Rome-- organized lead bullet supply for the fighting-- but so did everyone else.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 4th, 2010 at 9:55am
While I'm at it:

Asculum I (Pisa, 1975), has a study by U. Laffi on ancient Ascoli Piceno. p. xxvvii "Come e noto, la grande  magioranza della glandes ascolane e stata rinvenuta nell ' alvea del Castallano, il torrente che cinge la citta a S. e a E e confluisce nel Tronto a NE della citta stessa. (other findspots listed). Questa distribuzione dei reperti fornisce, a mio avviso, utili indizi per la riconstruzione della topografia dell'assedio...


Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by WirocuDurotrigon on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:15am

Quote:
I don't think there's any evidence, in the imperial army, for specialist, full time cohorts of slingers. Infantry, cavalry, mixed units, archers, yes; in campaigns, Traj. column shows barbarian auxiliaries (club men, slingers)-- but these seem to be levies or ad hoc bodies (like the allied slingers who show up during the Jewish War), not part of the standing army.  
 
Litt sources, e.g. accounts in Tacitus do mention archers and slingers (and "libritores", whatever they are-- staff slingers ? hand catapult guys ?) in battles (not at Mt Graupius, but during Germanicus' battles in early C1st AD; am not familiar with C2nd AD battle narratives: Dio ? Historia Augusta ?); the battlefield at Teutoburger Wald (AD 9), among other stuff, yielded lead sling bullets. So who did the slinging, in the Roman army ? As yet unattested specialist full time units ? Or a mixture of ad hoc levies, auxiliaries and legionaries detached on :slinging duty" ? I favour the latter solution: after all Vegetius tells us that legionaires are trained to throw stones by hand-- and to sling.  


I appreciate the status of specialist units serving alongside the Roman army is highly debatable, but in the instance that specialist units of slingers did exist as full-time auxilia, as can be argued, I think my figure is probably a good estimate.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:27am
But what if they weren't any full timers ? You'd have the archer units always there. And slingers ? Ad hoc stuff. At least worth thinking about.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by WirocuDurotrigon on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:57am
As I said, I appreciate that the question is still up in the air.

I think the only real answer to the thread title is, plenty when needed.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:14am
Hallo everyone!
Thearos, I agree with your point of view: probably, Piceni did use slings, but were not skillful as Balears, Rhodians, etc...
I don't remember where I read of Piceni involved in the Trasimeno Battle, but I'm 100% sure that they helped Romans during the Cannae Battle, with slingers - I'm gonna ask my teachers as soon as possible  :)
Oh and I forgot another important battle, the Sentinum one (295 b.C.): here, the Romans fought Etrurians, Umbri, Sanniti and Galli (but the first two populations did not partecipate), helped by the Piceni. Note that, in that time, Piceni were not yet conquered by Rome, against which they began a war in 269 b.C. Even in the ancient Sentinum (now Sassoferrato), we have foundings of lead glans, but they may have been thrown by everyone - it's a fact that Piceni did partecipate.
Still, a lot of evidence that Piceni did use the sling, but much less that they were skilled slingsmen: I had misunderstood the topic's title, which is "How many slingers were in the Roman Army", and not "How good were Roman Army's slingers?"  :)

A small note about the relief: it is conserved in Rome, but it comes from Ascoli Piceno, and doesn't show dancers, because at least the two in the left wear helmets - I have a very detailed pic of that particular in my "Archeologia nelle Marche", I'll try to post it as soon as possible!
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:21am
Thanks. But do they have a sling in each hand ?

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:29am
The question of whether there are any cohortes of slingers attested is probably answerable easily. Will post if I find anything. In the meantime, i note the good old C. Cheesman, The Auxilia of The Roman Imperial Army (1914), 132:

"If there existed cohorts of slingers with this distinctive uniform, we should exect to find cohortes funditorum or libritorum on the analogy of hte cohortes sagittariorum. It appears. on the contrary fro, a passage in Hadrian's speech to t he African army, that sligning formed part of the general training of all the auxilia"

--he's talking about the Traj. column slingers

-- he's referrng to the speech of hadrian to the cohors VI Commagenorum, where he praises their slinging (on horseback, it seems ? Discussed at many points in this forum)

Dunno if cohortes of funditores have since been found

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:31am
...and here it is!  :D
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5640/frombolieripiceni001.jpg


...and more glans from Forum Sempronii (now Fossombrone), dating IIIrd Century b.C.:
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1342/frombolieripiceni002.jpg

I'd like to add a last consideration about Piceni: they were a tipycal Italic population, ruled by "princeps" since VIIth, VIth Century b.C.: élite warriors and warchiefs. In more than 3'000 excavated tombs, we've found plenty of iron swords, knives, axes, maces and spears, expecially a long type of scimitar that is effective only by cavalry - but just 21 arrowhead, in 2 tombs! This shows some avversion to archery, that was, perhaps, considered just a way of hunting, and was not suitable for noble warriors - as it was in many cultures. I'm sure that even sling was considered in that way, and that may be one of the reasons why nobody talks about slingsmen - except for very capable ones like Balears  :)
Greetings,
Mauro.


Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:35am

Thearos wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:21am:
Thanks. But do they have a sling in each hand ?


Thearos, I see two of them having something in both hands - and that's ok, but may be they have a sling in one, and a bag of glans in the other - the relief is ruined and does not help its lecture  :-/
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by WirocuDurotrigon on Dec 4th, 2010 at 11:41am
Now that's a cool idea... :P

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:14pm
Hallo!
Personally, I'd put my glans bag in my belt, but those people doesn't seem to wear belts.... so let's go off-topic again: start supposing  ;D ;D
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 4th, 2010 at 1:23pm
The reason why the question if the Piceni were good slingers or not is relevant to the question of numbers of "Piceni slingers" in the Roman army. If they were not specially famed for it, it's likely that there weren't  many Piceni slingers in the Republican armies. (and I'm started to get pretty sure that there are no references to Piceni slingers at Cannae or Trasimene, but am ready to be proved wrong)

Now:
THird century BC and later A consular army is 2 legions of citizens + same number of Italians. Roman citizens: 10 K infantry. Most of this is heavies. A small proportion is "velites", light armed. Mostly shield and javelin men-- we know this from Polybios. There may have been slingers-- Fundibularius found a reference. But it's going to be mixed missile troops, slingers not dominant. Maybe citizen archers. Italians: 10 K. Picenians ? Yes, some-- but also Samnites, Marsians, Lucanians, etc. Of these, most are presumably heavies, again; some lights, and some slingers (among the javelin men, stone throwers, archers, etc). On top of that, any ad hoc allied bodies you can get.

Conclusion ? In the C3rd, in either consular army (20,000 + men), there's going to be a small number of slingers from the forces themselves (perhaps less than 1000?), fighting alongside their ROman and Italian friends; and perhaps some allied slingers, who will be specialists and fight separately. Hence the bodies you read about in Livy or Polybios: 500 slingers, 1000 slingers-- on top of the normal complement.

2 consular armies. On average, during this bit of the Republic, during the campaigning season, you might count at the most a few thousand slingers.


Now were the Piceni unsung slingers in the Italian contingents ? Were there many of them ?

1. The Ascoli etc sling bullets date to the Social War. It shows the Italians and Romans slinging at each other, especially in siege context. No indication that they're particularly into slinging.

2. The Ascoli relief (the EUR museum has a cast, I assume it's in Ascoli). I don't know if these are slingers. THe format looks like the "fregi d'armi" size of late Republic. But the :slings" really don't look like slings, and I suspect they're loin-clothed dancers.

3. The C3rd sling bullets are very interesting. WOuld be nice to know context.




Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 6th, 2010 at 4:35pm
Hallo Thearos!
I've spent some time looking for more informations; I suggest to forget Asculum and the Social War for now, and focus our efforts on the IIIrd Century  :)

I've studied a lot about those older sling bullets, here's what I've found.
Those gans have been found near the ancient Forum Sempronii, now known as Fossombrone. It is a small town located in the North of my Region. But now, a brief history of it. My region was populated by the Piceni from IXth to about Vth Century b.C. Then the Celts came from the North, and conquered about half of the territory - the borderline was the Esino river, 20 kilometers North of Ancona, my town. Then Forum Sempronii fall into Celtic sphere.
The fact is, that there are no evidences of this: excavations in Forum Sempronii lead to Roman stratography and, deeper, directly to a typical Picenian village. There is no sign of Celts. The situation is obscure, and archaeologists are waiting for further excavations; personally, I suppose that the Celts did not modify so much the Picenian village, maybe they just collected taxes from it, or something similar. They were more interested in shore villages, and in fact Fanun Fortunae (Fano), Pisaurum (Pesaro) and Sena Gallica (Senigallia) shows typical Celtic evidences: they were ports from where Celts did trade with Greece.
Back to Forum Sempronii: so, we don't know exactly when the Celts "conquered" it, but we know for sure that it must have been sometime between the Vth Century. In 295 b.C., about a hundred year later, the Celts were beated by the Roman Army, in the Sentinum Battle, and their territory (Nort of the Esino river) was conquered by Rome, and from now on it will be know has Ager Gallicus.

These glans are from IIIrd Century - and nobody talks about any battle in Forum Sempronii. At the moment, we don't know a thing about who has thrown those glans, and who was their target. Piceni rebelling against the Celts? Celts trying to keep Forum Sempronii against the Romans?
We can only guess  :( They only show once more that the sling was used in my Region.
I am sorry I haven't been able to help you on your researches, but I'll study more and keep on trying! :D
Good afternoon,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 7th, 2010 at 4:43am
How fascinating, great post. Are the Fossombrone ones inscribed ?

(what a beautiful set of names: Fossombrone, Senigallia, Fano. I saw a photograph of Fossombrone in the Archeologia nelle Marche book-- it looks absolutely magnificent site, hill with the Appenines snowy behind)

I wonder if this idea-- lead bullets of this particular shape-- is travelling westwards from Greece-- either via trans-Adriatic contacts, or via Sicily (and Dionysios I founded Ancona, if I'm not mistaken).

Big caches of sling bullets often reflect precise events, such as siege or stockpiling for military events (e.g. sling bullets at Numantia, or Athens in 86, or indeed Asculum in 90-89). The scenarios you sketch out are v. interesting. Did the N. Italian Celts use lead sling bullets ? That's a thought...

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by WirocuDurotrigon on Dec 7th, 2010 at 11:36am
I believe they tended rather to use baked clay or pebbles rather than lead.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 7th, 2010 at 3:34pm
Here I am!
I haven't been able to find any study about the Fossombrone glans, and I have only the picture I've posted - at least those glans doesn't seem inscribed. But they're exposed at the Archaeological Museum of that town and I'll go there and take some pics as soon as possible. I'll even buy the Museum's catalogue; perhaps there will be more informations. In the meantime, I'll ask some teacher of my university, one of them is digging a Roman town near Fossombrone and perhaps he'd know something useful!

I believe that lead glans are a Greek invention, but take this as a mere supposition. The oldest date I've found for an Italian lead glan is the IVth Century - that glan has been found in Southern Emilia Romagna, ancient Etrurian territory, and it is known that Etrurians were the main trading partner of Greeks. But I absolutely don't know a thing about glans foundings in South Italy, which was Magna Grecia, nor I have any information about glans in Northen Italy - North from Emilia Romagna it was all Celtic territory, more or less. I just know that Venetian slingers fought against Piceni, but this lead us again in the Ist Century b.C., and it is unimportant.
The reason why I believe that Greeks imported lead glans in Italy is that, in a Greek temple in Puglia (South East Italy), archaeologist have found a mould for lead glans - the mould has been dated to Vth Century, and is the oldest evidence, that I know, of lead glans.

About the Italian Celts: it's possible that they used lead bullets, for that there were not deep differences in weaponry, between the Italic tribes. More, the adoption of Greece's way of life concerned even weaponry, and lead to some standards: big rounded bronze shields, long iron swords for cavalry, and some others. This can be seen in warrior's tombs and in bronze small figures of heroes and divinities (such as Marte, Greek's war God). But I don't know enough about Celts to say something for sure  :-[

Wirocu, I can bet that everyone used clay, pebble and lead bullets - the sling being one of the cheapest weapon ever invented  ;) - and this makes slingers hard to be recognized when excaving a battle's terrain  :(

You're right Thearos, Dionysios I founded Ancona in about 385 b.C.  ;) But before him, there was a Picenian village dating about VIIIth Century and, more ancient, a Bronze Age village. In the centre of Ancona, on the main hill, a lot of flint tools and blades have been found, dating at the Neolithic Age. There's a long valley that links Ancona with Monte Conero, 15 kilometers South: I want to make some archaeological reconnaissance in that valley, to see if I can found some flint or stone tools - that could mean that the Neolithic people living near the Conero, have moved to my town. (I live exactly in that way, and I've found a Neolithic flint blade 700 meters from my house!).

What do you like about Fossombrone, Senigallia and Fano? Tell me, perhaps I can tell you more about them!  :D Where do you live? How do you have read Archeologia nelle Marche?
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 7th, 2010 at 6:04pm
Nice names, they just sound nice. "Fossombrone"...

Do you have a reference for the mould in Puglia ? Those moulds I know are all Hellenistic in date (from Greece), as far as I can tell. In as much as they're dated at all. One from Delos, one from Eretria, one from Athens...


Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 7th, 2010 at 6:07pm
Anyway, you must be right, the /archaeological evidence you show is compelling-- there's an Italian tradition of slinging with lead (presumably imitating the Greeks). Maybe they use it against the Hallstattian Celtic warrior societies in the north, maybe against each other; and no doubt, in the ranks of the "socii", the Italians fighting alongside the Roman citizen legions, there are Italian slingers with lead. Time to look at Livy again.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 7th, 2010 at 6:47pm
Hallo Thearos!
Sorry if I'm late in answering, but I consult my books and the web before writing to you, because I want to give you the most exact information!

Unfortunately, I can't find nothing about that mould, but I've found a .pdf file in my archive that shows a slinger, as it was represented in Vth Century b.C.'s pottery. The ware has been found in Naples, and that was a Greek colony: Nea Polis, New Town.
And I'm reading another interesting .pdf, published by a Sicilian university teacher, about inscribed lead glans found in Sicily, another Region that was colonized by Greeks! A lot of their glans, dating IIIrd Century b.C., probably report the name of slingers squadron's commander, serving with Carthago during the war against Rome. One of the glans has the name of a commander that seem to be involved into both Sagunto and Cannae Battles!
And, lastly, another ex-voto from an Ellenistic sanctuary: dated Vth Century, in Gravisca, near Tarquinia (Lazio Region, not far from Rome), comes the result of lead fusion: a lead "tree" with 5 glans attached - this is what you get after putting liquid lead between two moulds and you open them.

Unfortunately, all those .pdfs are in Italian; but, if you like, I can send them to you - and help you in translating them if you'd need!

It seems that Piceni slingers were not the ones; perhaps they had Etrurian, Sabin, Sannitics mates  :)
Slinging must have been very practiced! They seem to have been those unnamed soldiers who fought side-by-side with those noblemens of which we discover the graves.


Ready to help, just ask!
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 8th, 2010 at 11:21am
Thanks. Mauro

.pdfs  not necessary for now, I usually can find archaeological publications. Do you have a reference for the lead "tree" from Gravisca ? I don't know that one (not listed in Ducrey and Brelaz, Anikte Kunst 46 (2003) 101-2. The C5th dating is what intrigues me; the earliest sling bullets I know must date to the 390s. There are a few in N. Greek contexts which are usually said to be C5th, but which I suspect to be stratigraphical intrusions.

With many thanks

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 9th, 2010 at 6:11pm
Hallo, Thearos!

About Gravisca, I've found a very interesting bibliography; I'd like to send it to you!
In that particular site, the "tree" is not a stratigraphical intrusion, for that Gravisca was an emporion with many foundries, where iron, bronze and lead where worked. The "tree" in particular has been found near a forge, in the so-called "Epsilon" building.

I help you with pleasure, if I can; let me know how can I send you the complete bibliography about Gravisca!  ;)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 10th, 2010 at 9:30am
Many thanks, Mauro. You could post it here, or send it to me by personal message. if the date is secure it's the earlier archaeological evid. I know for sling bullets (there are a few Myc. things from Cyprus, but they are not necessarily sling bullets rather than weights)

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 10th, 2010 at 6:14pm
Hallo Thearos!
even in Italy - thus I don't remember when, exactly - have been found a few lead bullets with holes in the edges. Some archaeologists think that they are bullets, some other that they are weights, some other that they are ex-voto.
Howewer, I'm sending you a PM with the bibliography, that is too long to post it here  :-/
I hope you'll enjoy, and keep searching for other studies about this argument!
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 10th, 2010 at 6:19pm
Thearos,
I've sent you 3 PMs, please confirm that you've received them!  :)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 10th, 2010 at 8:19pm
Thanks, Mauro, for the general bibliography on Gravisca. But what is the reference for a bullet mould in C5th context, among the long list of titles ?

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 10th, 2010 at 8:32pm
Oh Thearos! I understand now!
There're references about the bullet "tree" in this publication:

Gravisca 16 = F. Colivicchi, Gravisca. Scavi nel santuario greco, 16. I materiali minori (con contributi
di G. Gorini – le monete e C. Sorrentino – i reperti osteologici), Bari, 2004.
page 65, picture n° 204.

:)
Greetings,
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 10th, 2010 at 8:40pm
A quick Google search for "Gravisca piombo ghiande missile" reveals in fourth place an article by L. Fiorini and  M. Torelli in a journal called Facta, 2007. I reproduce his picture of the "bullet tree". The reference is Gravisca 16 (Bari, 2004), p. 65.


All thanks to Mauro to pointing this out. But I need to look up the publication-- does this date to the early C5th, like so much else in the "foundry' area of the Gravisca shrine which Mauro mentions ?



https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=GhiandeGravisca.tiff (149 KB | )

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 10th, 2010 at 8:41pm
again
GhiandeGravisca.jpg (54 KB | )

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 11th, 2010 at 5:45am
I looked up Gravisca 16. There is one single find of a sling bullet, and the "colata di fusione", the lead pour "tree" from a sling bullet mould.

From the publication, I can see where it's been found (sector AB), perhaps the year (1977, if that's what the inventory means). But there's no stratigraphical datation; on the contrary, the publication refers to late Classical and Hellenistic parallels (Olynthos, Peiraieus...).

The shrine area has finds from C7th to late Hellenistic. I suppose these sling bullets could date from any date within this period; at least, it's not clear from the publication when to date them.

Why does this matter ? Just to establish that these are not necessarily the earliest securely dated lead sling bullets, and not necessarily from a C5th or early C5th context.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Mauro Fiorentini on Dec 11th, 2010 at 7:44am
Yes, neither tha article I am reading is very clear.
It says that the "tree" has been found in the "Y" building, near the Aphrodite templum.

A small bronze figure of the Goddess has been found near the "tree", and they dated it at about 580 a.C., according to the style and some reorganizations of the building.

But this date does not directly concern the "tree", and for some reasons it seems quite high to me  :-/
Mauro.

Title: Re: How Many Slingers Were In the Roman Army?
Post by Thearos on Dec 11th, 2010 at 9:25am
Thanks for that, v. helpful

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