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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Medieval reliefs
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Message started by Fundibularius on Dec 30th, 2009 at 1:22pm

Title: Medieval reliefs
Post by Fundibularius on Dec 30th, 2009 at 1:22pm
...of David slinging. They may have been posted before. They were new to me, though.

This one is from Akdamar, Turkey. A 10th-century Armenian relief. The slinging style looks "Byzantine" to me.
Akdamar_david-goliath.jpg (171 KB | )

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Fundibularius on Dec 30th, 2009 at 1:25pm
And a 12th-century-work of art from Vézélay cathedral, France.
David_1140_vezelay.jpg (87 KB | )

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Thearos on Dec 30th, 2009 at 2:29pm
Armenian church ?

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Fundibularius on Dec 30th, 2009 at 3:39pm
Yep.

http://images.google.pt/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Akdamar_kirche.jpg/180px-Akdamar_kirche.jpg&imgrefurl=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akdamar&usg=__tRuI6au7aBzK-Qoq1SzurlEWaI8=&h=266&w=180&sz=10&hl=pt-PT&start=14&sig2=Xir9I9nanZh4yRxrUHavbw&um=1&tbnid=04Yr4xQ9KMPFmM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=76&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dakdamar%2Bkirche%26hl%3Dpt-PT%26rlz%3D1T4GPEA_pt-PTPT311PT314%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=frk7S-TSEYLv-Qbnmu2uCg

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Thearos on Dec 30th, 2009 at 4:45pm
I think I saw it in the movie Ararat, by Atom Egoyan

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by slingbadger on Dec 31st, 2009 at 11:07am
There was an Etruscan Tomb found in the 18th cent. One of the tombs has elaborate bas reliefs on it, so is called the tomb of the bas reliefs. Hanging from one of the pillars is a bas relief of a sling. It looks Balearic, but there is an additional cord running up the middle of the cradle area. It's dated to the 4th cent, BC
www.mysteriousetruscans.com/caerbas.html

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Thearos on Dec 31st, 2009 at 2:51pm
Ingenious. How do we know it's a sling ? (rather than a tool). Just asking-- sling looks likely enough.

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by slingbadger on Dec 31st, 2009 at 5:53pm
All of the objects carved on that pillar are supposed to be weapons. Plus, what kind of tool could it be?

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Thearos on Dec 31st, 2009 at 6:38pm
The pillar with the "sling", if I'm not mistaken, shows not weapons, but agricultural tools, I think. So so kind of strap or muzzle ?

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Masiakasaurus on Dec 31st, 2009 at 6:55pm

Thearos wrote on Dec 31st, 2009 at 6:38pm:
The pillar with the "sling", if I'm not mistaken, shows not weapons, but agricultural tools, I think. So so kind of strap or muzzle ?

...Or a sling, used in Pastoralism.

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Fundibularius on Jan 1st, 2010 at 7:01am
Very good points, Thearos and Masiakasaurus. I had automatically associated a sword and a war axe, but the "weapons" could as well be for agricultural purposes. It would be nice to have pictures of all sides of the pillar.

It's difficult to get a really good look at the hanging "tool" or "weapon". If it is a sling, one of the cords is considerably longer than the other one. This might be due to the fact that the retention cord has to be wrapped around the wrist or the hand as there is no toggle or loop.

It seems to me, however, that behind the 3-split-section there is something like another 3-split-section (vaguely shaped). It would then rather look like an agricultural (equestrian?) item, as Thearos proposed. And it would complement the "belt" and the "rope" on the same side of the pillar.

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Et Cetera on Jan 20th, 2010 at 7:38am
It looks like a sling, but it is a bit odd that one side is way longer. Also that sword looks more like some sort of agricultural tool too.

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by hybrid_throwback on Jan 22nd, 2010 at 8:11am
Long flexible looking thing on the far left is a thresher for grain. Like a pair of stupidly proportioned nunchuku.

Blade puts me in mind of typically deep bellied work blades like machete, cane knives, seax and kukri. Many ancient short swords had more or less the same design though. I notice no real guard though, and if that's a sling equal pride of place is given to a simple coil of rope and a water jug for watering in seeds.

Could be a sling. Many trades and pasttimes rely on knotted, braided, looped bits of cord. Aussie bush bridles are made almost entirely off 4 strand braids and good will. I'd need to know more about how the average Etruscan farmer got his fresh cut grain back to the homestead at the end of a day before discounting it as being a loop-intended length of baling twine though.

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Thunder Chief on Mar 16th, 2010 at 8:38pm
Sorry for the late reply, but I've got a sling that looks just like this.  It's supposed to be a reproduction of an Etruscan sling.  Its got a three strand pouch as well, and looks suspciously like the one in the relief.

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/23430/t/300-BC-Etruscan-Sling-Reproduction.html

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 18th, 2010 at 7:45am
there's a whole thread about the pillar carvings.

looks like a sling to me - but could also be a headband used to aid carrying big stuff on your back.
Or a headband that doubles as a sling.

Given that these are all 'virtual' grave goods - it would make sense to have a sling.

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Fundibularius on Mar 20th, 2010 at 12:40pm

Thunder Chief wrote on Mar 16th, 2010 at 8:38pm:
Sorry for the late reply, but I've got a sling that looks just like this.  It's supposed to be a reproduction of an Etruscan sling.  Its got a three strand pouch as well, and looks suspciously like the one in the relief.

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/23430/t/300-BC-Etruscan-Sling-Reproduction.html


Is there any other image or proof other than these reliefs of the "Etruscan" sling being the one with the three strand pouch? If not, I have the suspicion that here we might have a confusion of cause and effect. Which means: The reliefs on the pillars once were interpreted as slings (no matter if they are or not), which is why everybody since then believes that Etruscans (exclusively) made three strand slings.

Jaegoor showed me a drawing of a Balearic sling variation with - a three strand pouch. They probably exist(ed) in many parts of the world, maybe even among the Etruscans ;), but I doubt that they were the "typical" Etruscan sling before I see more evidence for it.

I have nothing against the use of the term "Etruscan sling". It sounds good and vivid, and it's justified by its common use on this forum. But it's like the terms "Apache sling" or "Byzantine style". The Apache were neither the inventors nor the only users of the certain type of sling which we describe as Apache, and not everybody using the Byzantine style automatically had to be a subject of the Emperor of Constantinople. At the same time, the Apache as perfect pragmatics surely also used other types of slings, and I strongly believe it was not forbidden among Byzantine troops to use another throwing style than "Byzantine", if necessary. ;)

Title: Re: Medieval reliefs
Post by Jaegoor on Mar 20th, 2010 at 1:10pm
Such a Sling is even in the coat of arms of

FEDERACIO BALEAR DE TIR DE FONA
DSC00337.JPG (33 KB | )

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