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Message started by slinger87 on May 12th, 2009 at 3:53pm

Title: daivid and goliath sling
Post by slinger87 on May 12th, 2009 at 3:53pm
People wonder what davids sling was made of, daivid was a sheapherd wasent he? I would think that his sling was made of wool. and if it had a solid pouch is would probobly sheap skin.

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by Aussie on May 12th, 2009 at 6:07pm
There are quite a few threads around speculating on this and all aspects of the DvG encounter. The Bible has no detail of the sling at all and the historians don't know either so everything is just speculation and can never be verified either way.

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by curious_aardvark on May 13th, 2009 at 8:11am
yeah I'd go for wool and leather too - although many of the more traditional slings are made from cord woven from grasses and wool and leather would have both been valuable commoditys. So it's possibly more likely that david would have made his slings from local grasses.  

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by Fundibularius on May 13th, 2009 at 4:28pm
From what we know about David in his early (and later) years, he was also an excellent kinnor (usually translated "harp") player. On http://cdbaby.com/cd/mlevy ("King David's lyre, echoes from ancient Israel"), I found this:

In Biblical times, the Kinnor was usually made of cypress wood, or in very precious instruments, of sandalwood (I Kings 10: 12; described as "almug"). According to the ancient writings of the Jewish historian Josephus Flavius, who actually witnessed the Kinnor being played by the Levites in the Temple of Jerusalem, the Kinnor had ten strings, made of sheep gut.

Sheep gut strings fit well into the image of the young shepherd who uses materials from his (father's) livestock for his pastime - playing music and slinging. So, for his sling, wool would be a good candidate (I'm not a specialist, but I think that sheep's sinews are too short to be used as sling cords). I suppose either a woven pouch or, less probable, one out of goatskin. Sheepskin to me seems too soft and too thin to be effectively used for a sling pouch.


Title: David's sling
Post by Tint on Aug 26th, 2007 at 9:09am
Was there any detail? How long, how thick, material?


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Dravonk on Aug 26th, 2007 at 3:06pm
Not in my version of the bible. Maybe there are informations in some old ancient text, but I doubt it.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Loki on Aug 27th, 2007 at 3:22am
Considering that the Bible was originaly a huge collection of story books put together to teach moral lessons, I dont think the description would have been all that important. Just what he did with it. After all, how do you slay your "giants"?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by slingbadger on Aug 29th, 2007 at 10:34am
I imagine that it would be of woven wool.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by kelthen on Aug 29th, 2007 at 12:04pm
He was a sheperd after all. that would make sense.
Is there anybody from the same area here on the forum?
maybe you could ask them what  materials are common in the wild?
Maybe some plant is very common and useful? :-?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by funda_iucunda on Aug 29th, 2007 at 3:50pm
where wool is available leather or rawhide would be as well a plausible material.

funda

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Sep 1st, 2007 at 12:41am
One possibility,
I have leaned towards somesort of plant fiber.
I base this off of that wool is an economic commodity you want to sell as much of it as possible.
There is Plenty of time in a shepards day to harvest the plant seperate the fibers and braid it into a sling.

Marc Adkins


slingbadger wrote on Aug 29th, 2007 at 10:34am:
I imagine that it would be of woven wool.


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by sv on Sep 2nd, 2007 at 5:41am

Quote:
have leaned towards some sort of plant fiber.
I base this off of that wool is an economic commodity you want to sell as much of it as possible.


plant fibres? a shepherd is not a stone-age man, he is a participant in an economy, and has wealth.
if he is so inclined, and bored, and surrounded by sheep which leave tufts and strands of wool on every branch and twig, he would use wool to make a sling. either that or leather from the skin of a dead one.

maybe he would just buy a ready-made sling, or trade some small amount of ewe's milk, meat, or wool for one.    


Quote:
Considering that the Bible was originaly a huge collection of story books


it still is.....

SV

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by sv on Sep 2nd, 2007 at 5:45am
just to illustrate the cheap wool theory....
wool.gif (0 KB | )

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by sv on Sep 2nd, 2007 at 5:47am
oh it didn't post

SV
wool_001.gif (0 KB | )

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Dravonk on Sep 3rd, 2007 at 9:08am
A 1x1 pixel image? :-?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Trebuchet on Oct 3rd, 2007 at 9:16pm
It didn't post the second time, either.

Trebuchet
:D



sv wrote on Sep 2nd, 2007 at 5:47am:
oh it didn't post

SV


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by M. Demetrius on Oct 7th, 2007 at 7:27pm
>>Maybe some plant is very common and useful
Linen.  Made from flax stalks.  Practically all clothing in the East Mediterranean not made from wool would have been made from linen.  It's very strong, and would have been available just about anywhere there were people and spinners.  It's likewise mentioned in OT Bible texts.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by curious_aardvark on Nov 26th, 2007 at 8:32am
Braided wolf hair :-)
Makes as much sense as anything but leather ;-)
Not sure wool would make a sufficiently robust sling.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by macka on Nov 26th, 2007 at 9:29pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 26th, 2007 at 8:32am:
Braided wolf hair :-)
Makes as much sense as anything but leather ;-)
Not sure wool would make a sufficiently robust sling.


 Well considering they had a variety of plants to make rope with, it could be made from date palms, papyrus and other high fibre plants.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by curious_aardvark on Nov 27th, 2007 at 10:12am
but why go to all that bother when you've got leather ?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by slingbadger on Nov 27th, 2007 at 12:59pm
The most likely leather source, sheep, really is not all that strong, when compared with other leather or fibers. Goat hide is a possiblity. I imagine trial and error plays a big part in this.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by macka on Nov 27th, 2007 at 5:26pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 10:12am:
but why go to all that bother when you've got leather ?


tanning leather requires salt, and salt made it really expensive. So it was cheaper and just as strong to make a good fibre rope sling.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Nov 27th, 2007 at 7:50pm
I have no way of proving if this actually happened or not......

A friend of mine when stationed in North Africa in the late 70's early 80's told me of a time when one of the locals made a sling out of palmleaves and went hunting with it......

now in my files at home, I have something that states palm leaves are used to make slings in that area.

Marc Adkins


macka wrote on Nov 26th, 2007 at 9:29pm:

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 26th, 2007 at 8:32am:
Braided wolf hair :-)
Makes as much sense as anything but leather ;-)
Not sure wool would make a sufficiently robust sling.


 Well considering they had a variety of plants to make rope with, it could be made from date palms, papyrus and other high fibre plants.


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by curious_aardvark on Nov 28th, 2007 at 12:10pm
makes sense. So theoretically traditional slings from the middle east should be similiar to a 'david' sling. What are they made of today ?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by slingbadger on Nov 28th, 2007 at 2:37pm
The pictures I've seen show them as woven, looking similar to the old Egyptian Lahun sling.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by wannabeslinger on Mar 4th, 2008 at 3:52pm
id go with wool or plant fibers, more so wool

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Mike Habeeb on Mar 4th, 2008 at 5:19pm
I think it might be a bit much to say that slings made in the middle east today would be made out of the same things they were in David's day. I would suspect that those who use slings there would make them out of the same materials any of us would. After all, if slinging is a tradition that they've continued for thousands of years for practical purposes wouldn't it make sense that they'd have constantly been improving on materials and methods of making slings? And if the tradition hasn't been kept up, then modern slingers in the area would be equally at a loss as to how the ancient sling used by David would likely have been made. I think the idea of wool, some sort of leather, or a type of plant fiber are all possible and probable materials, but I don't think we'll ever be able to pin down exactly which one it would be. I am inclined to believe, however, that it would probably be made of the most inexpensive materials available. Even though slings were very important to shepherds, David was the youngest of 8, so valuable resources probably wouldn't be spared for a sling when someone could make one from free plant fiber for the cost of time and effort. Not to mention, David reports to Saul that he had chased down and killed both bears and lions by catching them by the jaw and striking them down to save a single sheep. Anyone who is going to go to that length to recover an individual sheep is likely to be very frugal, and wouldn't mind spending the extra time to make a sling from fiber rather than spend the extra money to make one out of leather or wool a little more quickly.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 5th, 2008 at 9:29am

Quote:
After all, if slinging is a tradition that they've continued for thousands of years for practical purposes wouldn't it make sense that they'd have constantly been improving on materials and methods of making slings?


Actually no.
Traditionl weapons are generally traditional because they use what is available in the area. Also sling making is generally handed down the generations. Bear in mind a sling is one of the most primitive weapons there is. They were - to all intents and purposes - perfected as a weapon many thousands of years ago. So there is unlikely to be much technology creep. It's a fairly safe bet that a sling made from natural materials in the middle east today will be almost identical to one made a thousand years ago or two thousand years ago.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Mike Habeeb on Mar 5th, 2008 at 9:54am
I disagree... there are knives traditional to all of our countries, but most people (unless perhaps some that live tribally) now make their knives out of modern materials. The most important tools and weapons will always be updated if newer and better materials become available.

At any rate, back to the question of what David's sling was made from, according to this website (You have to scroll down almost all the way to the bottom) the sling would have been made from what looks like plant fibers, some of them dyed, though I know not what athority they use to substantiate their claim.

http://www.forallbelievers.org/ISRAEL2006_1.html

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Mar 5th, 2008 at 10:51am
Kewl Nice Looking Sling.

Marc Adkins


Mike Habeeb wrote on Mar 5th, 2008 at 9:54am:
I disagree... there are knives traditional to all of our countries, but most people (unless perhaps some that live tribally) now make their knives out of modern materials. The most important tools and weapons will always be updated if newer and better materials become available.

At any rate, back to the question of what David's sling was made from, according to this website (You have to scroll down almost all the way to the bottom) the sling would have been made from what looks like plant fibers, some of them dyed, though I know not what athority they use to substantiate their claim.

http://www.forallbelievers.org/ISRAEL2006_1.html


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by dork on Mar 5th, 2008 at 6:22pm
Last year I worked with a man originally from Mexico. He told about the days when he was aboy and helped herd cattle using slings. To this day they make and use slings like their ancestors. Made from cactus fibers dried and braided. He says thats what works best for them. As far as he knows thats just what they have always used.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by aussieslinger on Mar 5th, 2008 at 8:14pm
I'm on the side of the traditionalists. In most primitive agrarian societies there is no notion of "process improvement". Things are done the way they always have been and even if shown something new and better it may not be adopted merely because it is just not the way it's done. I agree with those who suspect that slings made by nomadic shepherds, if there are any such left today, are most likely made the same way they have been for thousands of years.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Africa_Slinger on Mar 6th, 2008 at 5:11am

Quote:
Posted by: Mike Habeeb Posted on: Yesterday at 12:19am
I think it might be a bit much to say that slings made in the middle east today would be made out of the same things they were in David's day. I would suspect that those who use slings there would make them out of the same materials any of us would. After all, if slinging is a tradition that they've continued for thousands of years for practical purposes wouldn't it make sense that they'd have constantly been improving on materials and methods of making slings? And if the tradition hasn't been kept up, then modern slingers in the area would be equally at a loss as to how the ancient sling used by David would likely have been made. I think the idea of wool, some sort of leather, or a type of plant fiber are all possible and probable materials, but I don't think we'll ever be able to pin down exactly which one it would be. I am inclined to believe, however, that it would probably be made of the most inexpensive materials available. Even though slings were very important to shepherds, David was the youngest of 8, so valuable resources probably wouldn't be spared for a sling when someone could make one from free plant fiber for the cost of time and effort. Not to mention, David reports to Saul that he had chased down and killed both bears and lions by catching them by the jaw and striking them down to save a single sheep. Anyone who is going to go to that length to recover an individual sheep is likely to be very frugal, and wouldn't mind spending the extra time to make a sling from fiber rather than spend the extra money to make one out of leather or wool a little more quickly.


Posted by: wannabeslinger Posted on: Mar 4th, 2008, 10:52pm
id go with wool or plant fibers, more so wool  


I presume these nomadic peoples never ate meat.  ;) They would consume animals and use their skins and wool etc for shoes, clothes and maybe the odd sling or two. Mostly animals were kept as a resource for the people and not as a money making item since there was no use for that. Grain, oil etc that was needed was purchased with animals or the parts of them. etc.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by axon50 on Mar 6th, 2008 at 10:56pm
But why does it even matter what it was made of?

it worked (and well at that) and that's good enough.

I doubt it had any unique or special twist to it's design.  :-/

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by wanderer on Mar 7th, 2008 at 9:22am

axon50 wrote on Mar 6th, 2008 at 10:56pm:
But why does it even matter what it was made of?
........
I doubt it had any unique or special twist to it's design.  :-/

Well, it matters because it is of interest to some of us!

I would agree that there is likely nothing 'special' about it's design or manufacture - why should there be? It's more a matter of understanding how and from what such items were made. My guess would be linen (flax) but I have no particularly strong argument for that.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 8th, 2008 at 7:03am
okay been thinking about this from the point of view of a kid guarding the goats all day.
The best design would be a braided sling with a leather lined split pouch.

Thinking behind this. you'll probably have some ideal stones for wolves bears, goat rustlers etc - but for everyday practice you're not going to want to use your best stones so you need a design that will handle any shape and size rock that you find lying around - so a straight split pouch really isn't going to cut the halafel.
You've got plenty of time so you'll braid your own sling - you've got plenty of goat leather, and you don't need much anyway.

We know that  braided sling with leather line split pouch is a very old design. If I were a goat herder thats what I'd make :-)

edit - just found one over in the pictures of slings thread.

Nice one ranger - that's EXACTLY what I was envisaging.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by JTK on Mar 8th, 2008 at 2:04pm
wow, that is an amazing sling, who made it?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Camo-sling on Mar 8th, 2008 at 9:10pm
yeah, thats a great sling! Who made it? You should make a write up on how to make it! :)

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by wanderer on Mar 8th, 2008 at 9:51pm
Well, it looks like a split pouch sling (instructions for that certainly about here somewhere) to which a piece of leather has been sewn. Nicely done - but isn't that enough?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Mar 9th, 2008 at 5:35am
Because this is The Progect Goliath Section of the forum.
It's a bit esoteric compared to the main disscussionboard
And Because those of us that frequent this forum are intrested in traditional slings and what they are made of.

It might not matter what this sling was made of in the General Discussion section, But it definately does here,

Marc Adkins



axon50 wrote on Mar 6th, 2008 at 10:56pm:
But why does it even matter what it was made of?

it worked (and well at that) and that's good enough.

I doubt it had any unique or special twist to it's design.  :-/


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Mar 9th, 2008 at 5:38am
C_A Claimed he found it in the picture thread over in the main discussion board

Marc Adkins


JTK wrote on Mar 8th, 2008 at 2:04pm:
wow, that is an amazing sling, who made it?


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 10th, 2008 at 11:28am
lmao - the clue is in the writing underneath the picture (I fully intend to scrounge one of those in the near future ;-).

For the unobservant I'll give you the clue to the maker again - but louder lol


Nice one ranger - that's EXACTLY what I was envisaging.


Quote:
Here is my favorite sling.  I have made at least four others like it for gifts, and can do it pretty quickly now.  I stitched the leather on with a sewing awl, which I got cheap at the craft store.  I dabbed the thread knot with super glue.  The cord is jute


So jute and leather - pretty traditional materials too :-)

Also if you notice it's reversible. You can sling your big egg shaped rocks on the stitching side so it functions as a split pouch and everything else on the other side so it functions as a solid pouch. In fact you could even use the stitching side to sling gravel as the cord should act as a boundary to hold the smaller stones in the pouch.

Anyway it gets my vote as what a David sling should be.

And yeah - the materials for a David sling are important - paracord was pretty scarce in the middle east 2000 plus years ago :-)
Leather they had also natural plant fibres for rope. So a jute (replace with whatever fibre was used) and leather sling is certainly a viable prospect. We don't have to mention the superglue ;-)

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Mike Habeeb on Mar 10th, 2008 at 1:18pm
What do you mean we don't have to bring up superglue, isn't the invention of superglue credited to Moses during the 40 years of wandering in the desert?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by bigkahuna on Mar 10th, 2008 at 11:41pm
Yes!!!!! It was especially helpful for the occasional botched "bris". ::)

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Mike Habeeb on Mar 10th, 2008 at 11:42pm
haha, but apparently he didn't invent it until after he threw down the ten commandments in anger, otherwise he wouldn't have had to make that miserable trek back up the hill.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 12th, 2008 at 1:04pm
well as superglue is based on a limpet secretion (unless that's another old wives tale) old moses would have had to have been wandering around the coast to have discovered the stuff :-)

Egg white they would have had and used and bone glue also and probably various local tree resins - all could have been used to seal stitched on slings quite adequately.

:-)



Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Monkeywjcr on Mar 13th, 2008 at 7:55pm

Loki wrote on Aug 27th, 2007 at 3:22am:
Considering that the Bible was originaly a huge collection of story books put together to teach moral lessons, I dont think the description would have been all that important. Just what he did with it. After all, how do you slay your "giants"?

With a shoelace.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by wannabeslinger on Aug 10th, 2008 at 11:27am

Loki wrote on Aug 27th, 2007 at 3:22am:
Considering that the Bible was originaly a huge collection of story books put together to teach moral lessons, I dont think the description would have been all that important. Just what he did with it. After all, how do you slay your "giants"?



Oh...well if you werent aware they have alot of proof that supports many Biblical stories such as the battle of Jericho.... So its only a matter of time until we have found Cinderella's Magic slippers right?

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Aug 10th, 2008 at 1:30pm
I remember seeing this thread, but I couldn't remember the title for it. while doing some research into folk stick foghting I came across the following information that may or may not shed light on what materials were used.

Both of these manuscripts are 19th century documents that I found on Google books. here are the notes I created so you slingers won't have to go through the entire book

Marc Adkins

The Holy Land and Syria Notes
By Frank Carpenter

Pg 248 (pdf)Pg. 161(mans)-Sling Materials

The sheperds are about the same all over Palestine, kindly eyed men wiht fair faces bronzed by the sun. They stay out all day  on the hills with the sheep, driving them into the villages at night. Each Shepard has his staff and his scrip, a little bag of dried skin. He uses a sling as David did to send a pebble just in front of any straying sheep so as to turn it back. The strings of the sling are made of goat hair, and the pad for the stone is of the same material, often made with a slit in the middle so that when a pebble is put into the sling fits cloase like a bag. Such slings are now used in fights between the boys of the villages, who practice to see who can throw stones the farthest.


The Shepard Song Notes
by Rev. Faddoul Moghabghab

Pg.47 (pdf) Pg 31(mans)

The shepherds sling is always at work hurling stones to frighten the enemies away, and his voiceis ever herd in the slient dark hours.

Pg. 54(pdf) Pg 38 (mans)

I prefer to frighten away the wolves by my sling and my voice, to which my flock are strongly attached.

Pg. 66 (pdf) Pg 46 (mans)

Shepherds always carry a sling with them, which they make from the wool of the sheep. They practice a great deal with these slings, so that after a few yearsthey become expert at using them. Davids's sling was of more service to him than any other weapon. He certainly must have been an expert, for he killed Goliath, the phillistine, with the first stone. The tribesman of Benjamin, most of whom were shepherds, were noted for thier accurate use of the sling. " every one could sling stones at an hair bredth and not miss ( Judges xx 16)

Pg 112 (pdf) Pg. 80 (mans)

With the steel spike in the heels of his boots he crushes the head of the snake which coils itself on the road, and with his sling he frightens away the wolves that lurk behind the rocks.



Title: Re: David's sling
Post by peacefuljeffrey on Sep 30th, 2008 at 1:27am
How about hemp?


I don't know about the horticultural history of the stuff, or its worldwide distribution and prevalence, but I imagine it's been around in a lot of cultures...  It's known for being strong and durable...

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by StaffSlinger on Sep 30th, 2008 at 8:02am
Why would a herder use vegetable fibers to make a sling, when he's got access to all sorts of hair/leather.  Here's a description of  a shepherd's sling from 9th century Turkic peoples:

"The leather of the shepherd's sling was made of the skin of a three-year-old calf. The strings of his sling were made of the hair of three goats, and its ring was made of the hair of one goat." - The Book of Dede Korkut

Granted this is from the 9th centurry AD, not sometime BC; but thngs change s-l-o-w-l-y in that part of the world.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Sep 30th, 2008 at 8:50am
I am the one who made the suggestion that a herder probably wasn't going to use products from his flock. My main reason for that was these are economic products and the less of them that he uses for his own use is more that he has to sell. There are very suitable plant fiber that are available to him to make his slings with.

Now after posting that several months ago i have come across multiple references that indicate that is not the case. I will post them later on this evening when I get back home.


Marc Adkins


StaffSlinger wrote on Sep 30th, 2008 at 8:02am:
Why would a herder use vegetable fibers to make a sling, when he's got access to all sorts of hair/leather.  Here's a description of  a shepherd's sling from 9th century Turkic peoples:

"The leather of the shepherd's sling was made of the skin of a three-year-old calf. The strings of his sling were made of the hair of three goats, and its ring was made of the hair of one goat." - The Book of Dede Korkut

Granted this is from the 9th centurry AD, not sometime BC; but thngs change s-l-o-w-l-y in that part of the world.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it...


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by StaffSlinger on Sep 30th, 2008 at 9:18am
I've been around herder cultures in several places around the world.  There are always "scraps" and bits and pieces of this and that available for small projects like slings.  Wool/hair that gets caught in brambles, or doesn't come up to grandma's high standards.  Born dead kids/lambs or 'death by misadventure' adults which are never buried or left for predators, but skinned, fleeced, butchered and otherwise used to the max.  That sort of thing.

The interesting thing about the Turkic description is that the pouch, strings and the loop or "ring" are described as separate things.  The ring or retainer loop is not just a loop tied or braided into  the end of one cord.   Obviously the 'one goat, two goats' worth of hair to make the sling references is heroic bragging as in all mythology.  Mythic heroes need to be larger than life, of course.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Oct 1st, 2008 at 1:32pm
Ok Here is the first one.I Downloaded this off of Google books after searching for Shepards Sling

The Shepard Song Notes (1907)
by Rev. Faddoul Moghabghab

Pg.47 (pdf) Pg 31(mans)

The shepherds sling is always at work hurling stones to frighten the enemies

away, and his voice is ever heard in the slient dark hours.

Pg. 54(pdf) Pg 38 (mans)

I prefer to frighten away the wolves by my sling and my voice, to which my

flock are strongly attached.

Pg. 66 (pdf) Pg 46 (mans)

Shepherds always carry a sling with them, which they make from the wool of

the sheep. They practice a great deal with these slings, so that after a few

yearsthey become expert at using them. Davids's sling was of more service to

him than any other weapon. He certainly must have been an expert, for he

killed Goliath, the phillistine, with the first stone. The tribesman of Benjamin,

most of whom were shepherds, were noted for thier accurate use of the sling.

" every one could sling stones at an hair bredth and not miss ( Judges xx 16)

Pg 112 (pdf) Pg. 80 (mans)

With the steel spike in the heels of his boots he crushes the head of the snake

which coils itself on the road, and with his sling he frightens away the wolves

that lurk behind the rocks.

Pg 139 (pdf) Pg. 104 (mans) Picture 2

(Note:) Pic 2 shows a solid leather pouch with fiberous cord Sling



Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Oct 1st, 2008 at 1:35pm
The Holy Land and Syria Notes
By Frank Carpenter (1922)

Pg 248 (pdf)Pg. 161(mans)-Sling Materials

The sheperds are about the same all over Palestine, kindly eyed men wiht fair faces bronzed by the sun. They stay out all day  on the hills with the sheep, driving them into the villages at night. Each Shepard has his staff and his scrip, a little bag of dried skin. He uses a sling as David did to send a pebble just in front of any straying sheep so as to turn it back. The strings of the sling are made of goat hair, and the pad for the stone is of the same material, often made with a slit in the middle so that when a pebble is put into the sling fits cloase like a bag. Such slings are now used in fights between the boys of the villages, who practice to see who can throw stones the farthest.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Oct 1st, 2008 at 1:39pm
I belive there is a polish sling that dates from the 13th or 14th century that has a similar construction. Pic I have is a bit fuzzy though so I can't tell how it was done.

Marc Adkins



StaffSlinger wrote on Sep 30th, 2008 at 9:18am:
The interesting thing about the Turkic description is that the pouch, strings and the loop or "ring" are described as separate things.  The ring or retainer loop is not just a loop tied or braided into  the end of one cord.   Obviously the 'one goat, two goats' worth of hair to make the sling references is heroic bragging as in all mythology.  Mythic heroes need to be larger than life, of course.


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Oct 1st, 2008 at 1:46pm
Here is the pic and I mispoke it dates from the 10th century

Marc Adkins
10th_Century_Polish_Sling.jpg (555 KB | )

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Oct 1st, 2008 at 1:50pm
Either that or it was braided fromtwo or three diffrent colored goat hair????

But I am reaching here

Marc Adkins



StaffSlinger wrote on Sep 30th, 2008 at 9:18am:
  Obviously the 'one goat, two goats' worth of hair to make the sling references is heroic bragging as in all mythology.  Mythic heroes need to be larger than life, of course.


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by StaffSlinger on Oct 1st, 2008 at 3:13pm
Certainly could be two colors of goat hair, even Occam's Razor could cut that ;)

Interesting the the pouch of the pictured sling is a doughnut of cloth or leather suspended from doubled strings...

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Dr.Q on Oct 2nd, 2008 at 6:42pm
The reason the slings dimentions are not greatly especified in the BibLe such as the stature of goliath and the weights of his weapons is because Davids only count in the Bible to use such weapon was to slay goaliath. The martial arts hi and his warriors was mostly sword and shield.
David used this weapon against goliath to avoid a too close distance due to the extreme extrengh and heith of goliath at almost 10 feet tall. He knew he had to to hit him in the first hit or other ways he would have never scaped the battle with goliath. He also had 4 other stones besides the one for goliath just in case one or all of goliath 4 brothers showed there in revenge. They did not. Goliiath lost in fair combat, they were slayed later on.

I am really looking for some one who can really give details or even construct a replica of a David sling.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by StaffSlinger on Oct 2nd, 2008 at 9:25pm
Dr. Q.

There are only a handful of slings which have survived 3000-4000 years, and none that I know of from the region known today as Israel.  There are, however examples of Egyptian slings which would have been contemporary with the period of the Biblical tale of David.  Technology changed very slow in that part of the world 3000 years ago, and still changes only when necessary.  You should read the entire discussion here under Project Goliath called Egyptian Sling:

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1140984986

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Oct 2nd, 2008 at 9:43pm
Dr. Q
I will also add that right now we have  approximately 5 Ethnic sling designs from the Eastern Mediterrian. Two are desribed above in my posts to this tread. We now have evidence of a possible "split cradle" ( or a leather pouch with a slit in the middle) and a solid leather pouch being used at least in this area. We have the two Lahun Slings which have the same pouch (?) but diffrent techniques of Making the cords. And we have the ethnic Palestinian Woven sling where the non split woven pouch with twisted cords.

I have attached a pic of the Ethnic Palestinian sling

Marc Adkins


Bedouin_Shepards_Slings.jpg (166 KB | )

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Oct 2nd, 2008 at 9:56pm
Here is one of the Pouches
Bedouin_Shepard_Sling_2.jpg (146 KB | )

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Dr.Q on Nov 19th, 2008 at 8:33am
all the materials mention here seem plausible.
the soft leather of the sheep makes it possible
to make one without the time it takes for brading
and still be usefull. The softness of the skin makes
it flexible to move as a braded one.
The ancient Israely way for
the slingers to carry 3 (one around the head one
around the ankle and the one used to start the
stoning, makes me believe this could be the material.
never the less Im not very certain. The woven wool
and the other material of some plant are also plausible.
The Bible mentions the weapon of the kill but does not
enters into its making.
Goliath received the stone wich killed him instantly.
1 samuel 17:50.  The believe he used goliaths sword
to kill him because the stone just stunned him is wrong.
the head cutting was his promise to him before the
launch of the rock that entered his skull.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Nov 19th, 2008 at 6:32pm
Actually you are quoting several Greek Authors who were discussing the Balearic Slingers. Now if you have a reference to a similar quote that is describing the Isrealites then by all means share it. Would love to know who the author was and what manuscript it was in.

Again the material and design of the slingis open to very broad interpatation.

Marc Adkins

[quote author=Dr.Q link=1188133751/45#59 date=1227101603]all the materials mention here seem plausible.
The ancient Israely way for
the slingers to carry 3 (one around the head one
around the ankle and the one used to start the
stoning, makes me believe this could be the material.
never the less Im not very certain.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Jimb on Jan 15th, 2009 at 12:33pm

Tint wrote on Aug 26th, 2007 at 9:09am:
Was there any detail? How long, how thick, material?

coming in on this late, but wool would be my guess. As a successful shepherd they would have shown off their wealth by using the wool that they raised. Shepherds around the world use the hair of the animals they raise to make the slings they use. Witness Tibetan herdsman, Andean herders of Llamas and Alpaca. Greeks were known to have used well twisted wool for their slings.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by timann on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 1:03pm
I think Jimb has a good argument, good slings would be a good way to show off the great quality of your wool :)
timann

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 9:47pm
The translation of this particular phrase has been questioned, and it still is being hashed out in academic circles. I'm not doubting that wool may have been used but the Greeks were not the Israelites. In short we don't know for sure and until one is excavated all we are doing is speculation.

Marc Adkins



Jimb wrote on Jan 15th, 2009 at 12:33pm:

Tint wrote on Aug 26th, 2007 at 9:09am:
Was there any detail? How long, how thick, material?

. Greeks were known to have used well twisted wool for their slings.


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Lycurgus on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 4:15am
IMHO the Greek slings could just as easily of been made from linen strips like the ones found in old Tuts tomb but I do think that a shepherd would more probably use wool for the reasons already mentioned. I intend to use sheeps wool for my Greek re-enactment sling.
Of course Winkleried is correct when he says we will probably never know for certain.

Ancient writers have a habit of missing out simple details in descriptions of artifacts because at the time of writing everyone would have known what they meant anyway. For example if I wrote "John rides a horse in the field." You would all know what I meant, but if in 2000 years time most current records had been lost and horses were extinct someone reading this would be able to prove that horses existed but not what they looked like.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 8:26am
Sounds good to me,
I just wanna clarify that we are disccusing several things here right now, and a wool slings are only one of them in this thread. I was trying to steer the topic back to the original, what material would David's sling be made from.

Now with your greek reenactment activitites wool would probably be a wonderful choice but Last time I checked david wasn't Greek. :)

Marc Adkins


Lycurgus wrote on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 4:15am:
IMHO the Greek slings could just as easily of been made from linen strips like the ones found in old Tuts tomb but I do think that a shepherd would more probably use wool for the reasons already mentioned. I intend to use sheeps wool for my Greek re-enactment sling.
Of course Winkleried is correct when he says we will probably never know for certain.

Ancient writers have a habit of missing out simple details in descriptions of artifacts because at the time of writing everyone would have known what they meant anyway. For example if I wrote "John rides a horse in the field." You would all know what I meant, but if in 2000 years time most current records had been lost and horses were extinct someone reading this would be able to prove that horses existed but not what they looked like.


Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Lycurgus on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 8:35am

winkleried wrote on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 8:26am:
Now with your greek reenactment activitites wool would probably be a wonderful choice but Last time I checked david wasn't Greek. :)


True, but he was a shepherd. I believe he would have probably made his own sling using the cheapest, easiest and most plentiful fibre available to him.

My vote is that would be wool.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by David Morningstar on Jan 24th, 2009 at 2:35pm
I was about to post "I cant think of a known instance of shepherds making a sling from anything anything other than their own flocks fibre", but then I remembered this:

http://slinging.org/index.php?page=la-honda-manchega-sling-in-la-mancha---pio-santiago


Quote:
The material for the braiding was very varied, what they had near by, but fundamentally plant fibers like hemp or sisal, better “esparto” or “pita.”





Title: Re: David's sling
Post by timann on Jan 29th, 2009 at 1:42pm
Nice, David. That means nothing is certain yet.  And this dicussion can merrily continue :)
timann

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Thearos on May 12th, 2009 at 6:48pm
Perhaps also sinews / nerves from the animals ? Strabo (3.5.) mentions sinews as one of the things slings were made of in the Baleares

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by xxkid123 on May 12th, 2009 at 8:08pm
in one discovery channel thing on whether David could have killed Goliath or not, the scientists concluded that he probably had used a hemp full pouch sling.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Fundibularius on May 13th, 2009 at 4:33pm
I put this one on the other discussion, too (easy score) ;)

From what we know about David in his early (and later) years, he was also an excellent kinnor (usually translated "harp") player. On http://cdbaby.com/cd/mlevy ("King David's lyre, echoes from ancient Israel"), I found this:  

In Biblical times, the Kinnor was usually made of cypress wood, or in very precious instruments, of sandalwood (I Kings 10: 12; described as "almug"). According to the ancient writings of the Jewish historian Josephus Flavius, who actually witnessed the Kinnor being played by the Levites in the Temple of Jerusalem, the Kinnor had ten strings, made of sheep gut.

Sheep gut strings fit well into the image of the young shepherd who uses materials from his (father's) livestock for his pastime - playing music and slinging. So, for his sling, wool would be a good candidate (I'm not a specialist, but I think that sheep's sinews are too short to be used as sling cords). I suppose either a woven pouch or, less probable, one out of goatskin. Sheepskin to me seems too soft and too thin to be effectively used for a sling pouch.

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by Aussie on May 13th, 2009 at 6:13pm
As we had two threads on David's sling next to each other I tried using my moderator superpowers to splice them. Nothing is deleted but the order may be a bit weird.

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by bobthebeast21 on May 13th, 2009 at 10:11pm
personally i think david used an aussie pouch ;)

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Knaight on May 31st, 2009 at 5:27pm

xxkid123 wrote on May 12th, 2009 at 8:08pm:
in one discovery channel thing on whether David could have killed Goliath or not, the scientists concluded that he probably had used a hemp full pouch sling.

On the other hand, this is about whether David could have killed Goliath or not. Which basically asks the question "can a stone from a sling that hits somebody in the forehead from point blank range kill them?". This doesn't exactly require a lot of research.

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by Fundibularius on May 31st, 2009 at 5:57pm
Right.  Though a few of the historical documentaries I've seen in three countries are quite ok, a lot of them spread a whole bunch of unproven theories, half-truths, pure nonsense, fancy computer animations and bla-bla from "experts" just to fill their 45 minutes or so. And usually they end up with: Well, we don't know...

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Shimshon Hagibor on Oct 26th, 2009 at 1:35pm

winkleried wrote on Sep 1st, 2007 at 12:41am:
One possibility,
I have leaned towards somesort of plant fiber.
I base this off of that wool is an economic commodity you want to sell as much of it as possible.
There is Plenty of time in a shepards day to harvest the plant seperate the fibers and braid it into a sling.

Marc Adkins

hahahaha there isn't a terrible amount of time for anything much other than keeping your sheep out of the trouble that is in the area. Ever tended afew hundred sheep in an open pasture with lions and bears around? Wool is a comidity however so is a life animal and it doesn't take a very measuresble amount to make a sling. Due to Torah regulations he would not mix fibers of plants and animals. It would be either or.

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by Shimshon Hagibor on Oct 26th, 2009 at 1:42pm

Fundibularius wrote on May 13th, 2009 at 4:33pm:
I put this one on the other discussion, too (easy score) ;)

From what we know about David in his early (and later) years, he was also an excellent kinnor (usually translated "harp") player.   

In Biblical times, the Kinnor was usually made of cypress wood, or in very precious instruments, of sandalwood (I Kings 10: 12; described as "almug"). According to the ancient writings of the Jewish historian Josephus Flavius, who actually witnessed the Kinnor being played by the Levites in the Temple of Jerusalem, the Kinnor had ten strings, made of sheep gut.

this is true the Yosef ha levy (flavius Josephus) knew of the kinnor, however it is also a traditional belief that David designed his own type of lyre. This is traditionaly what is believed he played for Shaul. Just my .02

Title: Re: David's sling
Post by winkleried on Nov 26th, 2009 at 3:59pm
No not sheep, But I have done it with Cattle in my youth. But we are talking apples and oranges here. Thanks for point that out

Marc Adkins


wrote on Oct 26th, 2009 at 1:35pm:

winkleried wrote on Sep 1st, 2007 at 12:41am:
One possibility,
I have leaned towards somesort of plant fiber.
I base this off of that wool is an economic commodity you want to sell as much of it as possible.
There is Plenty of time in a shepards day to harvest the plant seperate the fibers and braid it into a sling.

Marc Adkins

hahahaha there isn't a terrible amount of time for anything much other than keeping your sheep out of the trouble that is in the area. Ever tended afew hundred sheep in an open pasture with lions and bears around? Wool is a comidity however so is a life animal and it doesn't take a very measuresble amount to make a sling. Due to Torah regulations he would not mix fibers of plants and animals. It would be either or.


Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by Fundibularius on Dec 5th, 2009 at 12:12pm
This may have been mentioned before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ4HV7JHagg&feature=related

Now we know what it was really like... ;)

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by hays_r on Mar 26th, 2012 at 11:37am
People who assume that because David was a sheepherder, or played a harp, that these drove his choice of materials.  I doubt this very much.  What is clear are the following:  as a herder, he'd have covered a lot of ground, and had a lot of free time on his hands.  Also, he was from a community and had access to all the materials anyone there had.  To think a herder would use an inferior material for one of his most important tools is quite a stretch.  But to think he'd have to money to get something from traders from afar (like maybe silk or chamois sinew) would also be a stretch.  While we can't tell, I'd prefer to see what traditional herders are using now or in recent memory.  We know the Andean ones used wool, but are they more decorative than functional?  Better to look at peoples inhabiting areas where there are predators that can take this type of livestock.  Sorry that I'm not one who's done that sort of travel or research.
hays_r, aka Bob in NZ

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by Morphy on Mar 26th, 2012 at 6:20pm
I can assure you wool slings are both very functional and deadly. That's not to say David used one, but at least we can set that particular question aside for now.

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 27th, 2012 at 2:39am

My Bolivian and Tibetan herders slings are both made of wool (Alpaca and Yak) and are excellent slings. Homer refers to slings of well-twisted wool in the Illiad.

Title: Re: daivid and goliath sling
Post by jlasud on Mar 27th, 2012 at 2:41am
Come on,did Goliath ask: hey did you just implant this stone in my forehead with a sling made of wool or gutted paracord? IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER

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