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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC) https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238447472 Message started by Thearos on Mar 30th, 2009 at 5:11pm |
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Title: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC) Post by Thearos on Mar 30th, 2009 at 5:11pm
Cortaillod sling, picture attached.
 https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=Cortaillod_Sling.tiff (52 KB | ) |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Thearos on Mar 30th, 2009 at 5:40pm
Sorry for the cryptic message above-- wanted to make sure I could post an attached picture. This is from Ferdinand Keller's "Fifth report on buildings built on posts", "Pfahlbauten, Funfter Bericht", plate XV, fig. 14.
P. 175: "Schleuderkappe. Taf XV fig. 14 stellt die eine Seite einer aus Schnüren von Flachs gestrickten Scheluderkappe dar" My translation Sling pouch. Pl. 15 fig 14 represents one side of a sling pouch woven from strands of flax. This is in a description of material from Cortaillod, found by dredging around the underwater, lacustrine site (late Bronze Age, Cortaillod, on lake Neuchatel). |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Fundibularius on Mar 31st, 2009 at 8:03am Quote:
Thanks for the image. Just one correction: "gestrickt" means "knitted" in German, not "woven" (that expression would be "gewebt" or "gewoben"). After a closer look at the picture, the pouch really seems rather knitted than woven to me. Maybe even the strings. BTW: Has anyone here ever tried to knit a pouch or a whole sling? Would be well worth an article in the how-to section. |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Steven on Mar 31st, 2009 at 8:58am
Yep; knitted has been done. http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1170249366/2#2
and here http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1089409452/0 |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Thearos on Mar 31st, 2009 at 9:26am
Beautiful ! The pouch looks marvellous. Actually, the Cortaillod sling look pretty good too. Knitted, then.
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Fundibularius on Mar 31st, 2009 at 12:42pm
Very impressive. They look perfect. I think I'll start knitting them, too.
BTW: The Cortaillod sling proves that knitting is much older than presumed under the topic. |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by funda_iucunda on Mar 31st, 2009 at 3:40pm
Thearos,
unfortunately I can't see the cortillod sling picture. What is wrong with my computer? Cleaning the screen doesn't help ::) funda |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Thearos on Mar 31st, 2009 at 7:37pm
Sorry about that-- it's an attached .tiff. I just did what the browser told me to...
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by David Morningstar on Mar 31st, 2009 at 7:40pm funda_iucunda wrote on Mar 31st, 2009 at 3:40pm:
You lack http://www.irfanview.com/ |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Thomas on Mar 31st, 2009 at 11:24pm
ALTERNATIFF
 CORTAILLOD_copy.jpg (49 KB | ) |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on Apr 2nd, 2009 at 1:44pm
Yep that's the pic that I have.
Marc Adkins Thearos wrote on Mar 30th, 2009 at 5:11pm:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by funda_iucunda on Apr 3rd, 2009 at 2:35pm
Many thanks for helping me to get a view on the sling. I had the silent hope that it would be a new picture, but I know it already. I tried to start reconstruct. What is very well visible is that the left edge of the pouch seems to be a twisted string and the right a braided one, made from three strands. This would mean that the cord is made with five strands. But this asymmetric pattern seems somehow inadequate. Furthermore I have no idea so far how the pouch between the edges is made. What do you think?
funda iucunda |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on Apr 5th, 2009 at 6:28pm
Having talked to a couple of knitting experts this weekend, the concensus was that it was woven rather than knitted. One of the problems is that oftentimes during these eraly archelogical expeditions there was no textile expert present, and what the finder discribed it as stuck, similar to the Southhampton sling, orignally it was desribed as a shoe tounge.
We really, really need a current photograph of this artifact, in order to be sure on it's method of construction. Based on my experience with the Gdansk sling recreation and an exercise I went through this winter on accuractely drawing an excavated artifact has caused me to realise the extremely limted information that can be gleaned from a line drawing One alternate prossibility was that it was Nalbound, instead of knitted Marc Adkins Fundibularius wrote on Mar 31st, 2009 at 12:42pm:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Thearos on Apr 5th, 2009 at 7:50pm
Why not write to the Neuchatel museum ? Not 100% sure the artifact ended there (it was first in a private collection), but would be worth a try.
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on Apr 5th, 2009 at 8:56pm
It's on a list of things to do for me, although I am still working with the Gdansk sling right now in my extremely limited spare time.
If anybody wishs to corespond with them go ahaead but please post all correspondence here. Marc Adkins Thearos wrote on Apr 5th, 2009 at 7:50pm:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Masiaka on Apr 13th, 2009 at 11:30pm
I have now knit two slings, and from my inexpert opinion the cord used to knit that pouch, if it was knit, must have been extremely thin to maintain the thread-count and small hole diameter shown in the diagram. Does anyone know how accurate that sketch is? Could the art, and not the archeologist, be wrong?
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on Apr 13th, 2009 at 11:34pm
The sketch is all we have, we don't even know the size of the pouch
Marc Adkins Masiakasaurus wrote on Apr 13th, 2009 at 11:30pm:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by wanderer on Apr 14th, 2009 at 7:08am Masiakasaurus wrote on Apr 13th, 2009 at 11:30pm:
I rather doubt that the pocket was truly knitted, despite the use of the German. Such a pocket is easily unraveled if the cord breaks or wears through, which I would have thought a design flaw for a sling. Evidently the pocket is not a 'plain weave'. I would guess that it was twined with a pair of wefts. A shame there was not an illustration of the other side, which would answer a lot of questions. |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by funda_iucunda on Apr 16th, 2009 at 3:58pm
Sad news: In the meantime I got into contact with the Museum Schwab in Biel in Switzerland. This museum hosts the collection of the Swizz officer Schwab who collected many objects during the second half of 19th century. The sling we talk about is part of this collection but recently it is not possible to find it. Due to the fact that in 19th century archeology the preservation of findings was not very well developed we have to face the possibility that this sling has been already lost since decades. :-[ However, due to an oral information I got the size of the pouch is round about 5 to 10 cm.
I conclude from this that all we can try is an approach to a reconstruction. In any case it would not have been an exact reconstruction as neither the retention loop nor the full lenght of any of the cords had been found. funda iucunda |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on Apr 17th, 2009 at 12:10am
Somehow I always knew that was possibility, But having the length of the pouch is a step in the right direction in creating a best guess replica.
Marc Adkins funda_iucunda wrote on Apr 16th, 2009 at 3:58pm:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling(Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC) Post by Timothy Potter on Apr 29th, 2009 at 1:38am
I've been working on a tablet weaving project recently, and I noticed a picture of a Bronze-Age warp-twined band in a tablet weaving book. Although the exact method of construction is unknown, it was pointed out in the book that the band could have been woven with two-hole tablets. The structure of the band had alternating twists to adjacent pairs of warp threads giving the surface of the band the appearance of being knit. The idea of a tablet-woven sling has occurred to me before, but this is the first sling that I have seen that might have been made this way.
Has anyone tried making a tablet woven sling? I guess the way to tell if the Cortaillod sling could have been tablet woven would be to compare the way the threads look at the edges of the pouch with a tablet woven sample. Wish I had more time right now for experiments. -Timothy Potter |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling(Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC) Post by wanderer on Apr 29th, 2009 at 1:21pm Timothy Potter wrote on Apr 29th, 2009 at 1:38am:
Zwiebeltuete attempted to make a sling using tablet weaving some years back, but according to his web site he was rather unhappy with the result. However, I believe in this case he wove the entire sling that way rather than just the pocket. The cortaillod sling might well be tablet woven, the wefts are surely twined, but whether with two or (presumably) four I can't tell from the illustration. To be honest, I would have thought it was manually twined. As far as the edges, I'm not sure if the illustrations show a real selvedge or an edging piece that might have led into the sling cords (like the tibetan slings. The trouble is, although I think the line drawing is rather beautiful, I'm not sure how much trust one can place on very small details in it. Is the illustration you mention the same as posted earlier in this thread? As for time for experimentation - my thoughts exactly :( |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling(Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC) Post by winkleried on Apr 29th, 2009 at 1:40pm
Add me to the list of slingers that have a tablet woven sling, And yeah I can second Zwiebeltutes experiences. I do know that the Lahun and Lovelock slings appear to have woven pouches. There was a posting about a gent who wove a Tut sling.
Ya know , try it and let us know how it worked, and then you can send chris a how to article on how to weave the Cortaillod sling. Marc Adkins wanderer wrote on Apr 29th, 2009 at 1:21pm:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling(Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC) Post by winkleried on Apr 30th, 2009 at 12:05am
Well Right now sounds like you are the man for this project :)
Once ya get some spare time try seeing if you could figue it out, Be extremely awesome to have a sling (Particularly this sling) from this time period actually reconstructed and tossing rocks again. Take lots of Pics then send it in to Chris Harrison for inclusion as a How-To Article. Marc Adkins Timothy Potter wrote on Apr 29th, 2009 at 1:38am:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling(Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC) Post by Timothy Potter on Apr 30th, 2009 at 10:22pm winkleried wrote on Apr 30th, 2009 at 12:05am:
Thanks for the encouragement, I'll add this to my mental list of sling projects. Right now I have two slings in progress, an ancient Nazca style sling, and a more modern Pervian sling. But for the present, I need to focus on the tablet weaving project I mentioned. -Timothy Potter |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by funda_iucunda on May 1st, 2009 at 5:05pm
Winkleried,
what guy reconstructed the Tut sling.? I never read such post. It would be exciting! funda iucunda |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on May 1st, 2009 at 8:02pm
Mr. Potter did.
Marc Adkins funda_iucunda wrote on May 1st, 2009 at 5:05pm:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on Jun 6th, 2009 at 2:30am
Showed several fiber arts experts theCortaillod sling pic. They were unanamous in saying based on the age and details that the sketch showed that it was nalbound.
Marc Adkins |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by David Morningstar on Jun 6th, 2009 at 10:41am |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by curious_aardvark on Jun 7th, 2009 at 11:42am
slightly better pic :-)
cortoilloid_sling_496x600.jpg (47 KB | ) |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by wanderer on Jun 9th, 2009 at 9:43pm winkleried wrote on Jun 6th, 2009 at 2:30am:
Marc, Do you remember the argument which led them to this conclusion? I had considered this, but it seemed to me rather unlikely. Worth making a pouch that way, but why were they so definitive about it? |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on Jun 9th, 2009 at 11:41pm
Based on the Age of the artifact and the details of the illustration that we have. I was way too early for knitting as we know it. They were talking about some sort of primitive (Early) type of nalbinding.........
Not really my area sorry don't have much Marc Adkins wanderer wrote on Jun 9th, 2009 at 9:43pm:
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Timothy Potter on Jun 9th, 2009 at 11:55pm winkleried wrote on Jun 6th, 2009 at 2:30am:
Thanks for the post, Marc This is the first time I've heard the term "Nalbinding", although I've seen some of the techniques used in horsehair work, and in Peruvian and Pacific textiles. After a long web search, I think that the sling might have been made with nalbinding, but I'm not sure. I did see a couple of nalbinding stitches that produce a texture similar to the one in the sketch. I still think the border structure might provide the key to the construction. If the sling could be reproduced using the different possible techniques (knitting, weaving with twined wefts or warps, nalbinding) the borders could be compared to the sketch to see how they matched. Based on the examples of nalbinding I saw online, I still might lean toward a twined woven structure, although I'm by no means sure. In any case I think I'll try to learn nalbinding. It seems like a very useful technique for making all sorts of things, including slings, and it might give me a way to use up some of my surplus knitting yarn. -Timothy Potter |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Timothy Potter on Jun 13th, 2009 at 5:06pm
Well, I tried an experiment today with knitting. I knit a pouch out of some linen rug warp I had on hand to see how it would come out. I still can't say one way or the other whether the original was knitted, but I can say that it wasn't knitted the way I tried to do it. Some features of my test look like they match the original, and some don't.
Aside from looking somewhat sloppier than I'd envisioned, the shape is much too short for how long it is. This could easily be fixed by knitting more rows between increases, but the problem is that the borders on the original are even and continuous, so whatever is done at the edges would have to be done every row. Unless of course the borders were made after the center part, in which case my idea of comparing different samples would not work since the same border could be put on any type of center. The borders of my test don't match the sketch, although they do bare a slight resemblance. One thing that did seem to match was the end of the pouch when I finished the decreases. The first photo shows this stage, and I think that it does look similar to the sketch. A note on the stubs of the cords: Assuming that the little piece of cord pictured above the sketch is from the sling, I used a technique that I learned from the Ashley Book of Knots, in the chapter on chain sinnets. It's a sort of two-stitch knit-like chain that is almost impossible to tell apart from an 8-strand square braid without examining the internal structure. Looking at the sketch, it seems that the cord was made with loops, and since this type of chaining transitions to and from knitting with ease, I opted to use it. It’s a pity we can't look at the reverse side of the sling, because that would be a dead give away to the construction. Comments and criticisms are most welcome. -Timothy Potter |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Thearos on Jun 13th, 2009 at 6:02pm
Looks pretty neat to me !
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by winkleried on Jun 13th, 2009 at 6:12pm
Doing a quick mental comparision between the sketch we have and the sling that you created I wouldn't kick it out of a historical competition that i was running :)
Hopefully after I get some stuff on the Gdansk sling done, this sling is on my to do list. Should start learning nalbinding here in a couple of months and see how that technique works for this. Marc Adkins |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Timothy Potter on Jun 13th, 2009 at 7:11pm
OK, a bit more on the cords. I had forgotten what the technique was called, but I remembered that when I was at Lacis, in Berkley, California, I had seen a book on the subject. So I went to Lacis.com and looked in the braiding section for the book. I found that the technique is called lucet braiding, and is made with a two pronged device called a lucet. I think that it's an interesting technique, and has a lot of potential for sling cords. Here's a video of how to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y5K7FiT2Og When I did the short bits on my sling sample, I did them with my fingers. After watching that video, I think I'll make myself a lucet, since the lady in the video is going about 5 timed faster than I was. This technique might work well with nalbinding, since both are worked with a single string. Here's another theory: If several of these lucet cords are placed side by side, they will produce a surface with the same texture that is shown in the sketch. It would be like the Tibetan slings that have multiple 8-strand braids sewn together. The border of the pouch could be the result of the sewing method. I doubt this is actually the way the sling was made, but it's fun to speculate. -Timothy Potter P.S. Lacis usually has a copy of Sling Braiding of the Andes for sale. That's where my copies came from. |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Masiaka on Jul 15th, 2009 at 12:38pm
With the pouch try slipping one stitch purlwise at the beginning of every row. It is the same, which is what you were looking for, and it produces a curl for thicker edges. It was in Matthias's instructions and is what I do. I don't think it matches the cortaillod sling but it is a good jumping off point.
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Bjarn on Jul 30th, 2009 at 9:39pm
I don't know if this is of any interest to anyone but it mentions the Cortaillod sling as well as some other interesting things:
http://books.google.com/books?id=OsGBAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA372&lpg=PA372&dq=cortaillod+sling&source=bl&ots=K8335cw1HM&sig=zn-1otYWtCHjPN6DvQBhASXhEuE&hl=fo&ei=0UhySuKOEo_VlAey0s3zCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=cortaillod%20sling&f=false |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by wanderer on Jan 4th, 2010 at 1:54pm
I have just noticed that there is a scan of an English translation of Keller's work on "The Lake Dwellings of Switzerland...." which is the source for the illustration of the Cortaillod sling. Freely downloadable for those who wish it/
Very little discussion of the sling in the text, but more extensive discussion of a number of other fabric artifacts, for those who are interested :). The sling is on plate LXXXVI (nr.86). The plates are towards the back of the book. http://books.google.com/books?id=ILQLAQAAIAAJ&dq=flax%20sling&lr=&as_brr=1&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q=flax%20sling&f=false |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by Timothy Potter on Jan 4th, 2010 at 9:17pm
Thanks for the link, wanderer.
For the convenience of anyone else who looks this up, the sling illustration is on page 397. It's interesting that Plate XCIV shows a device that looks a lot like a lucet. But I looked up the dimensions of the book on amazon.com, and based on the fact that the plate has the tool drawn to 1/4 scale, the tool would be about 8 in. long; rather big for a lucet. When I get the time, I would like to read through the parts of the book on flax manufacture and weaving to get some idea of what techniques were used at the time, and then maybe I'd have some more ideas for how the sling was made. -Timothy Potter |
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Title: Re: Cortaillod sling (Late Bronze Age, ca. 1000 BC Post by hybrid_throwback on Jan 8th, 2010 at 9:11am
How quaint it is, that even in 2010 when flying cars and implants were meant to be the done thing, we still "spin yarns" and "post threads" ;) .
Not to string anyone along, now... |
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