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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Re: david and goliath
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Message started by balearic-sling on Apr 23rd, 2008 at 4:11am

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Apr 23rd, 2008 at 4:11am
We normally use diferent slings. A long sling for long distance that all in strait line ------------ it allmoust is 200cm so if you hold-it with the two hands is like 90 cm from the "ring" to the support stone part.
The ones we use for hiting target 50cm +- from the ring to central part.

honda_027.jpg (251 KB | )

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 23rd, 2008 at 8:00am
Nice pic - particularly the support stand on the target. Now that looks doable :-)

I think most of us on the forum tend to use a general purpose sling length somewhere between your two sling lengths.

ie: we usually just use the one sling for distance and target.


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by bigkahuna on Apr 24th, 2008 at 12:02am
Bravo!!! Very well done indeed. Thank for doing such a fine job of representing the slinging community.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Apr 25th, 2008 at 8:10am
Hello here You have a small interview we made for local tv of The Balearic islands spain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY7EOspW594.

I want to thank to the people ho made this page.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Willeke on Apr 25th, 2008 at 2:01pm
Balearic-sling,
Thank you for sharing the video with us.
Great work to smash those bottles!

Willeke

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 27th, 2008 at 12:48pm
nice video - shame about the talking ;-)

One of these days I'll have to learn spanish lol

Have to admit as well as being a lot more accurate than most of us you're definitely more photogenic as well lol


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Apr 27th, 2008 at 12:51pm
Nice video!!!
Is your sling Espranto, hemp or some other fiber?

Marc Adkins


balearic-sling wrote on Apr 25th, 2008 at 8:10am:
Hello here You have a small interview we made for local tv of The Balearic islands spain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY7EOspW594.

I want to thank to the people ho made this page.


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on Apr 27th, 2008 at 2:10pm
I agree with the rest, you are doing an exellent job for us slingers.
The video was wery good, but I have almost strained my ears to understand a little of what was said ::)
It also lead me to some other balearic slinger videos, with many different slinging tecniques.

Seeing your slings gave me reason to roll out the hemp again,and I braided an almost 200cm sling yesterday, and an 110cm long one today. But I still leave the leather unsplit. Both slings seem to work fine. Usually I make them 150-160cm.

Impressing how easy you make it look, that is what many years of practice do to you, I guess.  And it must be nice to live in a place where slinging is considered a normal thing to do, for normal people :)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Tint on Apr 27th, 2008 at 9:29pm
Thanks for posting the video!

May be we can get Coca Cola to sponsor a bottle smashing event!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Apr 28th, 2008 at 4:15pm
Hello I have diferent materials for doing the slings:
PITA is white and is the best one, all is natural, we cannot use sintetic materials, and the pita is the most resistance and flexible.
Other material is "CAÑAMO" is diferent colour a bit more harder, but it works like the same the only thing that the end of the sling (the tail) brakes much faster.
ESparto is very very hard and they used for throwing only tennis balls, and iniciation.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Apr 28th, 2008 at 9:42pm
Thank you sir, that really helps me with my research.

Marc Adkins


balearic-sling wrote on Apr 28th, 2008 at 4:15pm:
Hello I have diferent materials for doing the slings:
PITA is white and is the best one, all is natural, we cannot use sintetic materials, and the pita is the most resistance and flexible.
Other material is "CAÑAMO" is diferent colour a bit more harder, but it works like the same the only thing that the end of the sling (the tail) brakes much faster.
ESparto is very very hard and they used for throwing only tennis balls, and iniciation.


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by simon on Apr 29th, 2008 at 8:03am
CAÑAMO is hemp

iv never herd of pita before though ill have to look about on google see what i can find :D

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Camo-sling on May 3rd, 2008 at 12:15am
I like the video very much!

another video i found has a great crack noise when the rock flys out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8SbLMyCY58&feature=related

PS. i want that sling!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by JTK on May 3rd, 2008 at 1:09am
wow you are a big guy!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on May 3rd, 2008 at 10:31am
Thank you for loking the videos, the last one you post was me slining in menorca's forest.
I make my own slings with natural elements, and depens for what I'm going to use the sling, Can be more longer or shorter, harder or flexible. I normally sell them. If you want to see pictures or more information ask me.
Thnak you and keep slinging!!!!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on May 3rd, 2008 at 2:06pm
Hi, balearic-sling.  I have recently started to enjoy sling-braiding, and would wery much like to see pictures of your slings. And I guess this goes for many((most)all)) of us.  After all, in this you are the one with the real know-how and practical experience ;)
timann

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wannabeslinger on May 4th, 2008 at 4:16pm
Respect.

You are quite the slinger, I'm better than average when I'm slinging regularly but you are much better than I am.

Id love to see some of your slings also.

How do you practice? do you work hard on form and keeping focused or do you just sling constantly? or both lol

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on May 6th, 2008 at 9:19pm
I'll be sending you a PM in the next couple of days.
Thanks

Marc Adkins


balearic-sling wrote on May 3rd, 2008 at 10:31am:
Thank you for loking the videos, the last one you post was me slining in menorca's forest.
I make my own slings with natural elements, and depens for what I'm going to use the sling, Can be more longer or shorter, harder or flexible. I normally sell them. If you want to see pictures or more information ask me.
Thnak you and keep slinging!!!!


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on May 8th, 2008 at 5:37am
Normally each one slings for competicions wen we can, I do it  abaut 40 min a day, and week ends we manage to go somewere and be one o two hours ,but depends.
The important thing is not training every day a lot of time, the best thing is have a good tecnic and have the sling in perfect condicions, they have been balearic champions that they only have a good tecnic and never practise.
(sorry for my grammar).
P5060080.JPG (1231 KB | )

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by jaxslinger on May 8th, 2008 at 11:54pm
Sling hand....
BalaericSling.JPG (27 KB | )

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on May 10th, 2008 at 1:37pm
Hi, Balearic-sling.
The sling in the picture is obviously braided from a rather hard and stiff and `hairy` material, this explain the wish for a leater lining in the finger hole.  The hemp I can get, is more than soft enough without it.  If I want leather there, I could easily sew it on.

Also I see is the lack of leater reinforcement in the split. I guess this is really optional.

What i would really like to see now, is the gripping end, with or without a gripping knot.  I have glimpsed both on the balearic videos I have seen.  How do you prefer it?  How is the end of your slings?
timann

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on May 11th, 2008 at 6:50am
if you close in on his hand you can see that he's got an unbraided tail entending from his fist - so one would imagine there's a knot or the whole thing would come unravelled.
balearic-grip.JPG (32 KB | )

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on May 11th, 2008 at 7:24am
Yes, C-A I can see it.  But still, the sling dissapear between the thumb and index finger, and reappear as a tail beyond the little finger, and that is the little bit I`m interested in :)

After braiding slings for, what is it, weeks, I have experimented with a lot of different ways of thinning and knotting in that bit of the sling.  And Balearic-slinger keeps the secret hidden in his hand in that picture

Usually I continue full braid thickness thru where I grip, without a grip knot, then thins the braid out rapidly,and finnish the ends with simple overhand knots beyond my hand.

I have also tinned the release end braid down so it is thin enough to make a grip knot, then continued with a thin braided tail, and finnished as the first.
And several other ways...you see, I can too much, and know too little :)

I still got a lot to learn and love to see other peoples solutions :)
timann

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on May 29th, 2008 at 6:09pm
here you are , sorry for a long time with out saying nothing.


prices

depends of wich kinde of sling you want.
A very simple one , is 25€ , a complet one with out leather 35  
€,with leather 40, and a long for long distance 40.
All are hand made and each one diferent .All with natural elements  
and they exactly the ones we use.
I dont know the shipping cost.

page.jpg (489 KB | )

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on May 30th, 2008 at 6:57am
go on then who's going to be the first to shout 'bloody hell that's expensive'.
lol
someone usually does ;-)

Given the time and effort involved in a hand braided sling I think it's pretty reasonable.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on May 30th, 2008 at 2:48pm
Nice pictures, balearic-sling.  I have been studying them, and have seen what kind of effort is used in making them.

But even nicer, I think, is the fact that they does not look wery much better than the ones I braid for myself.  Ha, I knew they was valuable objects. :)

But I spend a bit of time when braiding them, to be certain everything is perfect, and must buy materials  (,or scavenge them), and guess I too would have to charge a pretty amount of money, if I should sell them and actually earn something.

Of course, as a norwegian, I know a few things about hand-made cultural objects and mind-boggling prices :D
timann
 

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on May 31st, 2008 at 12:43pm
I have been doing a little bit of mathemathics, and checked currency values.  I do not think balearic-slingers prices are bad at all, now.  If I should deside to braid up a some slings, and sell them, at a middle age or viking fair or something, I would not bother unless I could get at least 200 norwegian kroner for each of them.  That would be ca 25 euro or 40$, i believe. :)

And measurinc, cutting, and sewing on leather would mean extra time and expense.  So there you have it.

But this has not been something that has been happening (but I might have planted  a seed, perhaps, once, when I met some viking reenactors and creftsmen ;))

After all, knotting, braiding and splicing have been my hobby for some 20ish years :)
timann

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on May 31st, 2008 at 7:41pm
Hello, they are expensive or not depending each one , The roaps We use, we have to unmake and fix them in a different way, thiners or longers.
each one is diferent and we do it with lot of tension on the roap and normally they have to be wet because the "pita" (material) is from young plants and they are hard to make a brain with it.

Title: Re: david and goliath - History channel program
Post by wanderer on Jun 14th, 2008 at 6:47pm

balearic-sling wrote on Apr 18th, 2008 at 8:46am:
I was participating in the documentary that is was flimed in israel for the History channel a couple of weeks ago.
Its going  on USA tv oround the 16th of june. If you want to know more things abaut it just ask me.

OK - so I've been wondering if anyone has any concrete information about this program.

Going through the schedules on the History Channel website there is such little detail on program content that I can only guess that this may mean a program called "Ancient Discoveries: Ancient Super Ballistics" which shows at 9pm Eastern on Tuesday 17th June.

Does anyone know any different?

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by BrianGrubbs on Jun 15th, 2008 at 12:34am
It is the Ancient Discoveries program.  Here is the web site to the production company that did the episode.  http://www.biblicalproductions.com/news.htm  
It took me awhile to find, but I ended up just googling belearic-sling's name, and presto! there is was.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Jun 16th, 2008 at 5:42am
hwow thank you for loking for that, they change the date of showing, I dont know wwen its going.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by BrianGrubbs on Jun 16th, 2008 at 7:56am
According to the History Channel website it airs on the 17th at 9pm eastern time.  Not sure how that translates for the rest of you, but you should be able to find out without too much trouble.  The title of the show is "Ancient Discoveries: Ancient Super Ballistics" so search for that.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wanderer on Jun 16th, 2008 at 9:28am
Brian,

Thanks for that. Seems to me the History Channel needs a little more helpful information on its web site.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wannabeslinger on Jun 16th, 2008 at 2:33pm
ok cool, thought it would be the ancient ballistics episode.. in the description they talk about bullets..

hope it goes in depth about slings.. and not a quick throw and then cut to something else.


I swear if the history channel calls it a slingshot im going to write them several nasty letters (from several fake addresses :P )

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Jun 16th, 2008 at 4:47pm
Im not really sure if its going to be that one or its just a diferent one, I cannot see it from spain, please tell me if finally that one.

thnak you.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Jun 16th, 2008 at 5:30pm

Quote:
Ancient Discoveries: Ancient Super Ballistics

Not sure if that'll be the one. I got the impression the show was to have a biblical theme all round.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wanderer on Jun 17th, 2008 at 9:42am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jun 16th, 2008 at 5:30pm:

Quote:
Ancient Discoveries: Ancient Super Ballistics

Not sure if that'll be the one. I got the impression the show was to have a biblical theme all round.

You could well be right. Given the allmost complete lack of information on the History Channel site (who ever thought one went to web sites for information?  :( ) it's difficult to tell. However, Balearic Slinger mentioned they were making scientific measurements, which sounds like the flavor of the series.

We'll let you know when we see it.

Wannabeslinger: I expect you will be right, but a little exposure is probably better than none.  ;)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:15am
Isn’t Ancient Super Ballistics enough of a clue?

http://www.history.com/minisites/ancientdiscoveries/
   

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:31am
The archers, atlatlists and catapult folks are also probably straining at the bit.    

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wanderer on Jun 17th, 2008 at 2:19pm

Thomas wrote on Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:15am:
Isn’t Ancient Super Ballistics enough of a clue?
http://www.history.com/minisites/ancientdiscoveries/

It's a clue - whether it is enough is a matter of opinion. Apparently insufficient for some of us anyway ;).

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by dork on Jun 17th, 2008 at 4:30pm
I filpped ahead on the guide of my satelite dish at 8:00 central. ancient discoveries they said reveal the ballistics of ancient bullets and bombs or something. Guess we will just have to tune in.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Ethan on Jun 17th, 2008 at 10:12pm
Disappointing to the supreme. While the show was incredibly interesting (I learned a lot, especially about the awesomeness of Chinese martial engineers) there was no significant mention of slings and certainly no footage. The only atlatl bit that turned up was a brief clip mentioning the "throwing stick" developed as the first significant improvement on ranged weaponry. That's certainly questionable.

The trebuchet and onager bits were really interesting though.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by dork on Jun 18th, 2008 at 6:17am
Clear;y that was not the much anticipated show we were all hopining for. It was interesting though.


Last year a production crew came to my work and filmed a bunch of people for a TV show called some assembly required. We were told it would air in the early fall around september. It actually came on in like december or january. So we all could be jumping the gun a little.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wannabeslinger on Jun 19th, 2008 at 11:41pm
as soon as I turned it on I realized it was an old episode and didn't both to keep it on..I want slings!!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by BrianGrubbs on Jun 20th, 2008 at 6:12pm
I did notice that the production site said that it was for Ancient Discoveries 3... that might give us a hint as to when it will be coming on.  Neither biblical productions nor the wild dreams films site days anything about when it will be... they just say to check back for when it will air.... crappit.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by TimdaSling on Aug 30th, 2008 at 7:58am
how many episodes left? ;D

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Sep 13th, 2008 at 12:38pm
hello why there is missing some "replyes" about two pages are missing......

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 15th, 2008 at 11:47am
yeah that is a bit weird.

Okay who's been playing silly buggers ?

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by jax on Sep 15th, 2008 at 7:13pm
I like all the posts that lead up to something.If we were having a long term conversation,we've by now forgotten all that was said.

 Thomas,don't you save some of the threads in pdf?

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Sep 15th, 2008 at 10:57pm
Brett

I don’t have any particular threads or topics, just some members chain of posts.

Dad  

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 17th, 2008 at 8:11am
looks like we've lost the whole of july.

And as it was really just balearic-slinger asking for info. We can encapsulate it in the simply question.

Any news on this program yet ???

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by BrianGrubbs on Sep 17th, 2008 at 10:14pm
reviewing the different web sites that have talked about this show, I have turned up no new indications of an airing date... the only clue I have to go on it that the Biblical Productions site says that it was filmed for Ancient Discoveries III, and the history chanel is currently airing Ancient Discoveries II.  That would seem to imply that we will have to wait for next season, or year unfortunately.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Dr.Q on Oct 6th, 2008 at 5:15pm
that bottle smashing video was great. The man was not speaking spanish though, I wish I could understand what they were saying

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Oct 6th, 2008 at 9:44pm
If you were refering to the Balearic Islands Youtube clip, they were more than likely speaking Catalan

Marc Adkins



Dr.Q wrote on Oct 6th, 2008 at 5:15pm:
that bottle smashing video was great. The man was not speaking spanish though, I wish I could understand what they were saying


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Dec 15th, 2008 at 11:30am
History Channel  12/15/2008 10:00pm eastern

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Episodes&content_type_id=52965&display_order=2&mini_id=52979


Will we see our Balearic representative do his stuff or will the History Channel just make some new postulations about equipment?  

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by David Morningstar on Dec 15th, 2008 at 1:45pm
He's there, for a fraction of a second :)

http://www.history.com/content/ancientdiscoveries/featured-videos then choose the 'Ancient hobbyist videos' tab and scroll down to 'Slingshot'.

There are a couple of brief shots of balearic_slinger doing his thing in the desert.

Irritatingly, they dont tell you how to use the sling once you've made it  >:(

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Dec 15th, 2008 at 5:07pm
And it looks like they are making a nice NW European sling. Based on the surviving relics I am thinking that the sling that was used was braided or woven instead of the simple sling showed in the clip.

Marc Adkins



David Morningstar wrote on Dec 15th, 2008 at 1:45pm:
He's there, for a fraction of a second :)

http://www.history.com/content/ancientdiscoveries/featured-videos then choose the 'Ancient hobbyist videos' tab and scroll down to 'Slingshot'.

There are a couple of brief shots of balearic_slinger doing his thing in the desert.

Irritatingly, they dont tell you how to use the sling once you've made it  >:(


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Dec 15th, 2008 at 5:09pm
Crud I missed it! Oh well it appears that there is always next week.

Marc Adkins


Thomas wrote on Dec 15th, 2008 at 11:30am:
History Channel  12/15/2008 10:00pm eastern

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Episodes&content_type_id=52965&display_order=2&mini_id=52979


Will we see our Balearic representative do his stuff or will the History Channel just make some new postulations about equipment?  


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Dec 15th, 2008 at 9:32pm
I got my link from “Upcoming Episodes”. Hopefully we will get the program, it’s scheduled for 4 showings.    

Again!
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Episodes&content_type_id=52965&display_order=2&mini_id=52979

tom

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 16th, 2008 at 7:45am
so was that the program with him 'killing' the goliath dummy or not ?

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Dec 16th, 2008 at 10:35am
It was all there, the background scenery was spectacular with many close up views of Luis holding his braided split pouch sling, smooth stones, multiple clips of his slinging form in both normal and slow-mo. Of course the usual “experts” did commentary on things such as the end of a sling breaking the sound barrier.

Luis hit an impact sensor about the size of an audio cassette mounted at a height of nine feet. The reading was well beyond that required for the kill.

As of now, two more showings are upcoming next week 12/21 and 12/22.

tom      

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by David Morningstar on Dec 16th, 2008 at 11:14am
Well done balearic_slinger! Viva the foners of Menorca!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Dec 16th, 2008 at 11:52am
HELLO everibody, lot of time since last time i was visiting the web site.
So It went really on tv, or is going on soon?

I think tom has described exacly what we did.
The producers are not answering me the e-mails I'm sendding them.

Really happy having notice from the show.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Dec 16th, 2008 at 12:32pm
Yeppers it was, and a nice one it was too.  Now this was diffrent than the making of the sling that was posted above, this one showed Luis casting the rocks at a nine foot target at relatively close quarters. It also showed that he needed several shots to actually do it.  Luis was using a large rock with one of his handmade slings.
According to the surgical expert Luis needed 3 kilonewtons in order to kill Golaith and achieved 3.62 Kilonewtons when he hit the target.

Also showed quite nice the sonic boom that the tail end of a Balearic Sling makes during the cast.

Marc Adkins



Curious Aardvark wrote on Dec 16th, 2008 at 7:45am:
so was that the program with him 'killing' the goliath dummy or not ?


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Dec 16th, 2008 at 12:34pm
Was on last night in the U.S. sir,
Marc Adkins


balearic-sling wrote on Dec 16th, 2008 at 11:52am:
HELLO everibody, lot of time since last time i was visiting the web site.
So It went really on tv, or is going on soon?

I think tom has described exacly what we did.
The producers are not answering me the e-mails I'm sendding them.

Really happy having notice from the show.


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 16th, 2008 at 1:03pm
okay - now can anyone record it for the rest of us and luis in particular ?
If we've got the video clip I've still got the producers contact details, I'll see if we can get permission to post it somewhere legally.
But one of you needs to record it to dvd or a hd recorder first :-)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by jax on Dec 16th, 2008 at 9:47pm
I'm sure Thomas saved it to his t.V. but it is probably only viewable through the machine at his house.The copyright thing is a bit sticky,no?Don't worry,I just scored a used betamax machine at the local boot sale and will copy the show for us. ;D

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Dec 17th, 2008 at 4:25am
Thank you everyone for all the information, like this I'm having some notices from the video, speck having notice from the producres, they sayd that wen it went on tv they will send me a copy, but no notice from them.

again Thank you for looking in internet to now wen was going on.

Luis Pons Livermore.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by StaffSlinger on Dec 20th, 2008 at 7:17pm
I just caught a History Channel show called Bible Battles.  Included, of course, David & Goliath.  David has a leather pouched 'hairy' cord sling that he loads a rock into and starts to spin helicopter style.  The narrator says they were some 30 ft apart and that David could accelerate a 4 oz tennis ball sized rock to 120 feet per second and drive it 1-1/2 inches into Goliath's eye socket with 16 ft. pounds of energy.  

Something not quite right about those figures, but I'm not gonna calc them... The same show earlier has Saul committing suicide seppuku style stabbing through the leather scale armor he's wearing:o :'(  yAnd what's wrong with that picture?? :-?

What dreck!!!!!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Dec 20th, 2008 at 10:18pm
Not the same show unfortunately.

Now back to the main show and something you would like they did discuss briefly the possibility that  David used a sling staff, then did a few practice casts using flaming pots and decided that it just wasn't possible to get the same level of accuracy out of it.

Marc Adkins



StaffSlinger wrote on Dec 20th, 2008 at 7:17pm:
I just caught a History Channel show called Bible Battles.  Included, of course, David & Goliath.  David has a leather pouched 'hairy' cord sling that he loads a rock into and starts to spin helicopter style.  The narrator says they were some 30 ft apart and that David could accelerate a 4 oz tennis ball sized rock to 120 feet per second and drive it 1-1/2 inches into Goliath's eye socket with 16 ft. pounds of energy.  

Something not quite right about those figures, but I'm not gonna calc them... The same show earlier has Saul committing suicide seppuku style stabbing through the leather scale armor he's wearing:o :'(  yAnd what's wrong with that picture?? :-?

What dreck!!!!!


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by StaffSlinger on Dec 22nd, 2008 at 8:21am
I finally did catch Luis in "Bible Tech" last night.  Great job Luis!

Also the guy who didn't know much about staff slings except for tossing clay firepots.  Obviously he was an expert.   "Ex" = former; "spurt" = a drip under pressure.  Expert = a former drip under pressure.  

I'm not sure he actually launched any firepots.  They cut away from the lighting, to the rotation of the staff, and then the pot landing.  Didn't seem to come in very hard; and did seem to come down as if it had been "tossed" - too convenient that the camera was that close to the the exact impact point....

IMHO think staff slings are much easier to become accurate with, as the staff extension and vertical plane of release are easier to align than the circular 'guess I should let go now' arrangement with the hand sling.  I do agree with the "expert" that it is unlikely David used a staff sling.  He undoubtedly carried a shepherd's crook or at least a hiking stick; and he carried a sling.  That the Israelites at that time (and David in particular) combined the two we have no evidence.


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by slingbadger on Dec 22nd, 2008 at 9:09am
A lot of these scenes in these historical documentaries are set up and staged. Sometimes with a specific idea in mind. Usually maximum drama, or a way to prove the point or both. I really would not trust them too much. the biblical ones (and I am going to open a barrel of worms on this one) are especially bad, since there is the point of proving that this specific thing happened.
 For instance, a few years ago there was one broadcast where a shard of a bowl was found. Engraved on the bowl was the word
"Jalut", which is Hebrew for Goliath. Thus, this proves that Goliath existed! Bit of a stretch.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by slingbadger on Dec 22nd, 2008 at 3:18pm
I just saw the same show Staffslingser saw and there is something wrong.
it mentioned David using a tennis ball sized rock, and that he and Goliath were 30 ft. from each other. (where they got this from, I don,t know) and that he hit Goliath with 16 ft.lbs of force.
 Now, I'm about as mathematically inclined as a fencepost, but I know enough from my own research to know that's not right.
That would have had to have been one very light rock that was thrown. The average Roman glande was 1.5 oz, and it hit with a force of 52-58 ftlbs of force..  Even taking into consideration the fact that it was,nt as aerodynamic as a glande, a stone that large should have more force than 16 ftlbs to it.
 At least they portrayed Goliath within the normal size range, and not 30 ft. tall or anything.    

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Dec 22nd, 2008 at 6:11pm
He's right. Due to my previous training I pretty much key into the metric units, so I completely ignored the other measurements. From what I remember Luis achieved something on the order of 3.62 Kilonewtons of force. When I run the conversion of newton to pound-force I got an answer of 813.81.
Now  I am not a physic or mathmatical guru so I may have goofed something up. I will take a closer look at my figures when I get home and actually put pecil to paper on them.

Now a tennis ball sized rock depending on the particular density of the stone should weigh around 300-500 grams (10 to around 17 oz) yeah it should hit more solidly than that

Marc Adkins




slingbadger wrote on Dec 22nd, 2008 at 3:18pm:
I just saw the same show Staffslingser saw and there is something wrong.
it mentioned David using a tennis ball sized rock, and that he and Goliath were 30 ft. from each other. (where they got this from, I don,t know) and that he hit Goliath with 16 ft.lbs of force.
 Now, I'm about as mathematically inclined as a fencepost, but I know enough from my own research to know that's not right.
That would have had to have been one very light rock that was thrown. The average Roman glande was 1.5 oz, and it hit with a force of 52-58 ftlbs of force..  Even taking into consideration the fact that it was,nt as aerodynamic as a glande, a stone that large should have more force than 16 ftlbs to it.
 At least they portrayed Goliath within the normal size range, and not 30 ft. tall or anything.    


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Dec 24th, 2008 at 4:30am
I don't understand much of the things you are posting here, because the lenguage, I think you are saying that the test of the impact mesure is not corret? The people ho ware filiming ,as before somebody said had a principal idea from the beggining, and at the end we were having no more time because it was getting dark, and slinging to "Goliath" was flimed in abaut 10 min, and  all was russing up. You have said that it not possible the test of the impact? Im sorry if that is not like it has to be, i did as good I could.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Dec 24th, 2008 at 11:26am
Luis pardon the confusion Sir, We understand that you were slinging at a very difficult target and that you succeded in hitting it. For that you are to be Congradulated.

What we are discussing is the interpretation of your slinging by the "experts" of the show. They started throwing around some very confusing numbers.

For the record your shot generated over 3 kilonewtons in a very small area, again a very impressive feat


Now for the spanish version of what I just posted.
Perdón de Luis el sir de la confusión, entendemos que usted lanzaba con una honda en una blanco muy difícil y que usted succeded en el golpe de ella. Para eso usted debe ser Congradulated. Qué estamos discutiendo es la interpretación de su lanzar con una honda por el " experts" de la demostración. Comenzaron a lanzar alrededor de algunos números muy confusos. A título de indicación su tiro generado sobre 3 kilonewtons en un área muy pequeña, otra vez una hazaña muy impresionante


balearic-sling wrote on Dec 24th, 2008 at 4:30am:
I don't understand much of the things you are posting here, because the lenguage, I think you are saying that the test of the impact mesure is not corret? The people ho ware filiming ,as before somebody said had a principal idea from the beggining, and at the end we were having no more time because it was getting dark, and slinging to "Goliath" was flimed in abaut 10 min, and  all was russing up. You have said that it not possible the test of the impact? Im sorry if that is not like it has to be, i did as good I could.


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by StaffSlinger on Dec 24th, 2008 at 2:21pm
Luis - the program you were involved with had good information; and you were very good in what you did.

There was a different History Channel program that also had David and Goliath.  It had some information about the weight of rock and hard it would hit that were not very accurate, and other information that was just silly and wrong.   We were comparing that bad information with the information on your show, and saying yours was much better.  

Merry Christmas!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Dec 30th, 2008 at 8:14am
Hello, haw can I do it to see it? somebody has record it?

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Dec 30th, 2008 at 11:47am
Luis

I have saved your show to the dvr. If you PERSONAL MESSAGE me your Menorca address I will send you a vcr tape of the complete one hour show, no cost of course. The vcr coding may not be compatible to EUROPEAN STANDARD but we can try.

tom      

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by David Morningstar on Dec 30th, 2008 at 1:51pm
I wont be playable on an European VCR or TV at all. The best way is to get it into a digital format and upload it somewhere private for Luis to download.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 31st, 2008 at 6:22am
dunno about that the last 3 video recorders and tellys we've had have been ntsc compatible.
Going back about 15 years.
So there's a good chance he'll be able to watch it.
Failing that bung it over here and I'll transfer it to dvd.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by David Morningstar on Dec 31st, 2008 at 7:28am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Dec 31st, 2008 at 6:22am:
dunno about that the last 3 video recorders and tellys we've had have been ntsc compatible.
Going back about 15 years.
So there's a good chance he'll be able to watch it.
Failing that bung it over here and I'll transfer it to dvd.


Cool, they must be making them smarter than back when I was getting Babylon 5 bootleg tapes from across the pond  ;D


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Dec 31st, 2008 at 11:00am
Picking up a blank tape today and still waiting for PM with address. Should be someone on that warm island who can do what is necessary for Luis.

Everybody have a healthy and prosperous NEW YEAR!!!

tom        

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Jan 13th, 2009 at 12:09pm
On april Im going to be in san Diego california, and I will bring some slings because I have a friend over there and  I'm going to see him.
If someone wants to come and sling some stones all toggether could be fine. :o
;)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on Jan 18th, 2009 at 1:11pm
Grumble, Already have plans for April.......
Did you ever get that PM I sent you abou the Slings?

Marc Adkins


balearic-sling wrote on Jan 13th, 2009 at 12:09pm:
On april Im going to be in san Diego california, and I will bring some slings because I have a friend over there and  I'm going to see him.
If someone wants to come and sling some stones all toggether could be fine. :o
;)


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 12:37pm
hello mark, yes I got it, I forgget compleatly of that , as soon I have time i will be cotacting you for them.

sorry I pass it compleatly.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Unsapien on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 1:27pm
Hey Luis,

I live in California. I might be able to travel to San Diego, because I could visit my family in Los Angeles along the way. It would be a great excuse to head south, but I have to see about my work schedule first. Let me know what days you were planning on being in california.

-Unsapien

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Jan 28th, 2009 at 4:40pm
Finally, here you are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYea2UDfeY&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wanderer on Jan 28th, 2009 at 6:06pm
Luis,

That's great stuff. I can't fault your contribution to the program!

Some of the commentary around it was IMHO not as good as it might have been.

I'd like to see the evidence  about the materials used in the sling. It seemed to me one place they implied it was made from wool, and in another clearly indicated it was from hemp. There's some question whether hemp was even in that part of the world at the right time, and if the are implying a vegetable fiber it was more likely flax (linen).

Still, it's great to see a real slinger in action.

Congratulations again Luis.



Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Lycurgus on Jan 29th, 2009 at 4:14am

wanderer wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 6:06pm:
Luis,

That's great stuff. I can't fault your contribution to the program!

Still, it's great to see a real slinger in action.

Congratulations again Luis.


I second that comment, nice work. How may shots did it take before you hit the target?

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on Jan 29th, 2009 at 1:50pm
Congratulations, Luis. As expected you did your part wery well.
timann

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Unsapien on Jan 29th, 2009 at 3:10pm
Great job! Keep up the slinging!

-Unsapien

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by David Morningstar on Jan 29th, 2009 at 7:40pm
Fantastic slinging!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on Jan 31st, 2009 at 1:13pm
Great shot, Louis! Would be great to see such skill in reality.

funda iucunda

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Stringman on Feb 1st, 2009 at 5:56pm
It is wonderful to see such accuracy, both at the impact sensor and the coke bottles.  I shall try and copy your grip and put the finger loop on the second instead of the first finger.  Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and skill.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 6:28am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYea2UDfeY&feature=channel_page
Video of luis pons livermore recreating goliaths downfall.

Given that this is the project goliath section and this is the first proper scientific testing of the theory, I figure this deserves to be stickied.

Even given that luis would be more suited to playing goliath ;-) it's still a pretty good bit of video.  

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by aussieslinger on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 9:13am
Thanks for posting the link. Thanks especially to Luis for offering his services as it gives a lot of credibility to the segment to see a genuine slinger demonstrate his skill.

Strange how they were looking for a striking force rather than an energy or even momentum figure. Most ballistics tables for firearms stress energy as "striking force" is very dependent on the nature of the object being struck. For example cricketers or baseballers will easily absorb the impact of a catch as their hands move back even an inch or so. The same ball if striking their heads would cause serious injury or death. The collision takes place over a shorter time so the force is inversely greater,  a phenomenon known as the impulse of the force.

Pity they didn't chronograph and weigh the stone. It would have been nice to know how fast and how heavy it was to compare with my/our own capabilities. They comment on the fact that the tail of the release cord "beaks the sound barrier" which actually has no bearing on the speed of the stone which has well and truly exited the pouch by that time anyway.

Still much more objective than the run of the mill DvG type presentations where they can't quite decide if they think the encounter was a "miracle" or not and lob for a sort of non-miraculous miracle stance.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wanderer on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:15pm

Aussie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 9:13am:
Thanks for posting the link. Thanks especially to Luis for offering his services as it gives a lot of credibility to the segment to see a genuine slinger demonstrate his skill.

Strange how they were looking for a striking force rather than an energy or even momentum figure. Most ballistics tables for firearms stress energy as "striking force" is very dependent on the nature of the object being struck. For example cricketers or baseballers will easily absorb the impact of a catch as their hands move back even an inch or so. The same ball if striking their heads would cause serious injury or death. The collision takes place over a shorter time so the force is inversely greater,  a phenomenon known as the impulse of the force.

Pity they didn't chronograph and weigh the stone. It would have been nice to know how fast and how heavy it was to compare with my/our own capabilities. They comment on the fact that the tail of the release cord "beaks the sound barrier" which actually has no bearing on the speed of the stone which has well and truly exited the pouch by that time anyway.

Still much more objective than the run of the mill DvG type presentations where they can't quite decide if they think the encounter was a "miracle" or not and lob for a sort of non-miraculous miracle stance.

I agree with a lot of your reservations, Aussie, but on the positive side - this is the first example as far as I know where a program researcher actually contacted this Forum to actually seek advice, and I think we might take it that the responses had a positive effect.

There were certainly some tiresome aspects of the program, and like you I would take some exception to some of the 'physics' arguments (not withstanding the appearance of various academics!) but I suppose I'm resigned nowadays to the production values of such programs being more tightly controlled by 'entertainment' rather than solid closely argued discussion, which has low market appeal nowadays.

The makers of these programs are (unfortunately!) not making them for those few of us who eagerly await every detail to be gleaned. I think the constraints often mean that the contributions of experts are not really done justice either.

This program at least did an outstanding job of showing a modern expert slinger doing something tremendously impressive. I think that is something to treasure!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thomas on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:21pm

Luis tried to have my media (vhs) converted at local shops, but it was not working.
I’m glad he finally got something to see from some source.

tom            

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 3:53pm
Hey tom, I couldn't get nothing from your tape, but thanks a lot for sending it, I had lot of luck, because i could downloaded from internet just loking in some pages, and there it was, in a torrent program i think, I just put the name of the pogram and in couple of hours I had it.
Thank you for sending the packet that fast, in one week it was in my home.

wen I have time I will answer to all the other questions you made me.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by aussieslinger on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 5:07pm

wanderer wrote on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:15pm:
The makers of these programs are (unfortunately!) not making them for those few of us who eagerly await every detail to be gleaned. I think the constraints often mean that the contributions of experts are not really done justice either.

This program at least did an outstanding job of showing a modern expert slinger doing something tremendously impressive. I think that is something to treasure!


Sorry if I came across as overly negative, but I think they wasted Luis's talents a bit by having him sling at a load cell. A lifesize statue of Goliath with a closeup slo-mo of the stone striking him on the forehead would have been visually much more effective as well. Even a plywood cutout of a Goliath size figure the way that Techstuf did, would be good. (BTW. Both Techstuf's videos are still active on YouTube and there's something so convincing about seeing that fist sized rock imbedded in Goliath's chin.)

Also, "3.62 kN force", has no meaning to most people, whereas, "a 5 oz. stone travelling at 130 mph with the same energy as a .38" cal. S&W", or whatever the figures worked out to, is something people understand. (Especially in the US where most people own one or two ;D)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Feb 11th, 2009 at 5:56am
hello the sling is vegetable fiber , and in the last test, the one with the mesure impact piece, It take me 4 or 5 stones until I got it. Its a shame that the only part ot testing was that, because first we had to shmash a bottle, then long distnace test, that were very nice images, and they put the impact test. But its  really a nice documentary.

PD: the only slinging federation with a reglament and status is in Balearic islands, nobody wants to make an other in some part of the wolrd? so we can make competicions against other people arround the wolrd.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 11th, 2009 at 10:47am

Quote:
nobody wants to make an other in some part of the wolrd? so we can make competicions against other people arround the wolrd.


I'm trying mate I really am.
But alas one man can only do so much.

I'll be running another uk slingfest this year - and it's start.
But you guys have many hundreds of years of practice, tradition and experience behind you - I've got a lot of catching up to do before :-)

Now if the balearic federaton were to issue an invite to uk slingers I'm sure I could put together at least 4 of us to come over and play with you :-)
I figure david morningstar and I for definites and maybe a couple of the others as well.

It's a thought anyway.

But we're a long way from any kind of organisation I'm afraid to say.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Fëanor on Sep 16th, 2009 at 7:26am
I am also working on getting people together for competition, traveling to spain is far off still though.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Masiakasaurus on Feb 15th, 2010 at 7:10pm
In response to Iron Goober in the Overlooked variable thread, taking the Bible literally must be done very carefully. Remember that you are reading an update of a translation of a translation of a translation (check my math: Original Aramaic to Greek to Latin to German/English and then modernized. 1 original, 3 translations, and a revision). I am Christian, though several on this forum are not, and I do not believe that anyone could translate through 3 languages with readers over 1685 years and orally passing on these stories for as much as 6000+ years before that without the meaning of the words let alone the way people think changing. If you are going to take the Word literally use the direct dead sea scrolls translation to avoid language drift, and try and think like someone living through these events. Otherwise your cultural biases will inevitably color your judgment without you realizing it.

And for the thread topic itself, the overlooked variables: David was probably a 5 ft. 15 year old (or older, "manhood" was historically at age 25) with no armor and a weapon that in all likelihood was not scorned by his own warriors nor the opposing side. So why is there the popular myth of the 12 year old being laughed at who surprised everyone by defeating the 12 ft. monster? Why? And what about Elhanan son of Jair? in 2 Samuel 21:19 he is credited with killing Goliath! (Except in KJV where they added 'brother of' so that Elhanan killed Goliath's brother.) I don't mean for anyone to point and shout "ahah! proof of the fallacy!" but these are the things I wonder about. Regardless of religion someone killed Goliath.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by NECURS on Mar 12th, 2010 at 10:09am
You did a Great Job In the Documentry recreating Goliaths downfall Luis.  I was wondering what kind of accuracy could be achieved with the Sling and after seeing you Hit those Coke Bottle's and the sensor, I can see that with practice a Slinger could use the Sling as a Very Accurate Hunting Weapon, I've watched lot's of Slinging Video's and I've never seen a more Powerful & Accurate Slinger than Luis Pons Livermore. Excellent Slinging Luis !  




Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by NECURS on Mar 12th, 2010 at 11:51am

balearic-sling wrote on May 29th, 2008 at 6:09pm:
here you are , sorry for a long time with out saying nothing.


prices

depends of wich kinde of sling you want.
A very simple one , is 25€ , a complet one with out leather 35  
€,with leather 40, and a long for long distance 40.
All are hand made and each one diferent .All with natural elements  
and they exactly the ones we use.
I dont know the shipping cost.
''


Hello Luis, I'm real Interested In your Sling's, I dont know how much the above price quote's are compared to In American Dollar's, I'll send you a PM with my E-Mail address well get somthing figured out where I can Buy some of your Sling's, Thank's !

Kenny

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by wanderer on Mar 12th, 2010 at 12:34pm

NECURS wrote on Mar 12th, 2010 at 11:51am:
...you E-Mail me at XXXX well get somthing figured out where
Kenny

Thanks for the e-mail address Kenny ;)

We've got PMs to save you from the spammers etc. unless you really want everyone to have your e-mail address. You can modify your forum post to 'expunge' it. :)

Click on Luis' name to get to his profile, from which you can send a PM instead.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by NECURS on Mar 12th, 2010 at 1:13pm
Thank's Wanderer, I guess a PM would work out better, I dont want no Mail from ANTI'S !

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Fundibularius on Mar 16th, 2010 at 11:02am
Just for the record... saw this one today in a supermarket. "To slay a mighty thirst".  ;)
Goliath.jpg (159 KB | )

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Mar 19th, 2010 at 3:12pm
nice beer, i will have to taste it before smashing it!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Greenmanbacchus on Oct 30th, 2010 at 6:21pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 7:10pm:
In response to Iron Goober in the Overlooked variable thread, taking the Bible literally must be done very carefully. Remember that you are reading an update of a translation of a translation of a translation (check my math: Original Aramaic to Greek to Latin to German/English and then modernized. 1 original, 3 translations, and a revision). I am Christian, though several on this forum are not, and I do not believe that anyone could translate through 3 languages with readers over 1685 years and orally passing on these stories for as much as 6000+ years before that without the meaning of the words let alone the way people think changing. If you are going to take the Word literally use the direct dead sea scrolls translation to avoid language drift, and try and think like someone living through these events. Otherwise your cultural biases will inevitably color your judgment without you realizing it.

And for the thread topic itself, the overlooked variables: David was probably a 5 ft. 15 year old (or older, "manhood" was historically at age 25) with no armor and a weapon that in all likelihood was not scorned by his own warriors nor the opposing side. So why is there the popular myth of the 12 year old being laughed at who surprised everyone by defeating the 12 ft. monster? Why? And what about Elhanan son of Jair? in 2 Samuel 21:19 he is credited with killing Goliath! (Except in KJV where they added 'brother of' so that Elhanan killed Goliath's brother.) I don't mean for anyone to point and shout "ahah! proof of the fallacy!" but these are the things I wonder about. Regardless of religion someone killed Goliath.
Here's my two cents on a couple of the Goliath points:
Apparently, we're not sure exactly how many inches the referenced 'cubit' translates to. We'll never get to the bottom of that, but somewhere between 7'5" and 9' seems likely. I've heard 12'....but honestly...if we're taking about a 'healthy giant' rather than a pituitary giant, 7'5"  is not an incredible height. Many athletes today approach that size. As to David killing Goliath with a sling, all the kilonewton tests etc, let me throw this one out there: The Biblical accounts available to all and sundry are not very detailed...more like Cliff Notes. We 'know' that David picked up five stones.
We 'know' that Goliath wound up with a stone  in his forehead. Was it the first stone? The fifth?
See where I'm going here? These details are not in the Scriptures. As for being actually killed by that stone in the forehead....coulda been, I s'pose...why not?  OR...How 'bout Goliath was simply rendered unconscious/helpless by the blow, whereupon David killed him with a sword?
I Samuel 17:50 supports the first conclusion, while I Samuel 17:51 appears to support the seond conclusion. We've 'proven' that a giant can be killed by a stone from a sling ( via kilonewtons),
and we've had a lot of fun doing it. :) Myself, I've grown up with the impression that Goliath died by the sword in the end...then again, the sling was indispensable to that end.
Can you tell I spend more time with Biblical history than I do with slings? Hehehe ;)
Never mind all o' that....time to get back to the topic at hand: slings and slinging.
GMB

"Be mindful of your thoughts.
Thoughts crystallize into habit and
habit solidifies into circumstance."  

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Masiakasaurus on Oct 30th, 2010 at 7:08pm

Greenmanbacchus wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 6:21pm:
we're not sure exactly how many inches the referenced 'cubit' translates to. We'll never get to the bottom of that, but somewhere between 7'5" and 9' seems likely. I've heard 12'....but honestly...if we're taking about a 'healthy giant' rather than a pituitary giant, 7'5"  is not an incredible height.

A cubit is the length of a forearm and a span is the width of a spread hand, from thumb tip to pinkie finger tip. The first recorded cubit was the Egyptian cubit, slightly longer than the average forearm and was probably based on the cubit of a taller pharaoh. Jewish cubits were borrowed from Greek, or more likely Babylonian cubits in other cases so they can be assumed to apply here.

Saying 7 to 9 feet overlooks the fact that the average height and arm span, and by derivation cubit and span, were shorter in antiquity than in modern times because of dietary and lifestyle differences. We may not know how tall Goliath was but we absolutely should not use modern sized cubits and spans as a reference.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Greenmanbacchus on Nov 2nd, 2010 at 12:08am

Masiakasaurus wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 7:08pm:

Greenmanbacchus wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 6:21pm:
we're not sure exactly how many inches the referenced 'cubit' translates to. We'll never get to the bottom of that, but somewhere between 7'5" and 9' seems likely. I've heard 12'....but honestly...if we're taking about a 'healthy giant' rather than a pituitary giant, 7'5"  is not an incredible height.

A cubit is the length of a forearm and a span is the width of a spread hand, from thumb tip to pinkie finger tip. The first recorded cubit was the Egyptian cubit, slightly longer than the average forearm and was probably based on the cubit of a taller pharaoh. Jewish cubits were borrowed from Greek, or more likely Babylonian cubits in other cases so they can be assumed to apply here.

Saying 7 to 9 feet overlooks the fact that the average height and arm span, and by derivation cubit and span, were shorter in antiquity than in modern times because of dietary and lifestyle differences. We may not know how tall Goliath was but we absolutely should not use modern sized cubits and spans as a reference.
Well said, Masiakasaurus....an element of doubt is apt to remain.
We can 'assume' the Hebrew cubit and be reasonable enough ( if not definitively accurate).
Suffice it to say that Goliath was no doubt a really big guy.  I suppose we've all seen Brad Pitt as Achilles and his battle ( if you wanna call it that) with the giant Boagreus. It seemed to me (for what that's worth) a pretty fair idea of what David was up against. Better him than me in either case LOL.
GMB

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Aussie on Nov 2nd, 2010 at 5:25am
Whatever Goliath's actual height may have been in modern units of measure is interesting and sems to be much more of an issue to us than t was at the time. Note that Saul says to David that Goliath is a threat because he has been a warrior from his youth, ie. a highly experienced warrior. He does not say that Goliath was a threat specifically because of his huge size.

The notion, as portrayed in some video re-enactments, that David was some wimpy kid not even strong enough to lift Saul's sword just doesn't stack up. David tried on Saul's armour and rejected it because it was too restrictive not because it was too big. Saul was a big man for his time. It is one of the reasons he was chosen as king. So we can presume David was also reasonably big as well or he wouldn't have even tried the armour on. The idea that David was like some kid at a dress up party in totally outsized clothes is quite unrealistic. It is unclear whether the sling stone injury was immediately fatal or whether Goliath was technically still alive. However David apparently had no trouble decapitating Goliath with his own huge sword.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Dan on Nov 5th, 2010 at 8:37am
[, all the kilonewton tests etc, let me throw this one out there: The Biblical accounts available to all and sundry are not very detailed...more like Cliff Notes. We 'know' that David picked up five stones.
We 'know' that Goliath wound up with a stone  in his forehead. Was it the first stone? The fifth?
See where I'm going here? These details are not in the Scriptures. As for being actually killed by that stone in the forehead....
  [/b][/quote]

I Can not answer all your questions but let me start with this "All the Bible is truth but not all truth is in the Bible" Example God created the earth ,true and in the Bible ,Dan posting on slinging.org true but not in the Bible. I do not want to get into "deep" theological discussion about creation and such because they usually end poorly so I will continue on David and Goliath, the part you are forgetting is God gave David great bravery in tough trials this is part of the story, also most of us hearing that david was four feet tall and goliath 50ft tall is usually an artist PERCEPTION and is usually way off. Also regarding how many shots he took
I just go by what it says.
48 As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him. 49 Reaching into his bag and taking out A stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground.
This indicate he only used one stone also keep in mind it says Goliath had his shield bearer IN FRONT of him so david had an even smaller (moving) target and it is my understanding that when ancient discoveries tried this it took the BALERIC WORLD CHAMPION several times to hit a stationary target that wasn't coming towards him with a sword, asuming David wasn't a superhero I am pretty sure there was some Divine intervention in this story.  ;)  :)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Rockman on Mar 8th, 2011 at 2:10pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umyfth4zvAM

Para aquellos hermanos que sólo hablan Español, he subtitulado el video.

I translated the video and placed subtitles for non English speakers.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on Mar 9th, 2011 at 2:46pm
I just remember a random knowledge I got about giants.  I read an newspaper article about a Norwegian living in ... 1700s, I think.  
Point was he was big, maybe 2 meters tall, and in his youth he was serving in the Denmark/Norwegian king`s giant soldier platoon.  Apparently kings back then gathered the huge boys in their country to have a platoon of giants, probably mostly for the impressing/imposing  look in parades.  That idea might have been very old.
timann

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Fundibularius on Mar 9th, 2011 at 3:52pm
It must have been some fashion in the 18th century. The Prussian kings of the time also had units of tall soldiers, usually called the "long fellows". Their value in marching long distances and in combat is a bit dubious, but they were surely a sight to see (which is probably why they often served as palace guards).

I remember hearing many years ago about a Neolithic site in West Germany which contained at least four male skeletons measuring between 2 meters and 2,30 or even 2,40. If I recall correctly, they had all been (ritually?) executed.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:10am
Four part article:

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-1-how-tall-was-goliath

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-2-where-did-the-stone-land

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-3-what-killed-goliath

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-4-what-difference-does-any-of-this-make

Heavy on religion, but the main points are:

Goliath was six feet seven inches tall

The stone struck him on the greave (lower leg armour) and dropped him, David then killed him with his own sword.

I am not 100% convinced by the greave suggestion but it is interesting.



Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Masiakasaurus on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:39am
I like the fact that the guy is trying to make people think critically about the story in an actual historical sense, but he makes 1 critical mistake that seems to crop up everywhere. He's assuming how long the lengths of measure are! There are multiple types of cubit, and Jewish people had a tendency of borrowing them from all over. If you read the wiki article on cubits it makes you think "okay, so they used this measure during this period and after that they started using this one," but in reality different tribes used different measures of cubit depending on where they lived and who they traded with the most. The person who wrote down the measure of Goliath could have been from south Judea and traded with Egyptians (cubit was between 518.5 and 525 mm) and the measure we think is standard could have been from Northern Israel which they used because they traded with Mesopotamians (cubit=533.4 mm). That leads to an error as great as 89.4 mm (3.5") when measuring Goliath's height. 3.5 inches may not be much, but it's the difference between being considered average (5'10") and tall (6'1.5").

We know that the ancient Jews used the Babylonian cubit at one time (428 mm) and the largest cubit I know of is the Hashimi cubit (650.2 mm), so if someone accidentally used the hashimi cubit to figure the height of Goliath and used the 6 cubit measure the possible error could be as high as 1333.2 mm (52.5") if the Babylonian cubit was the correct measure.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by HurlinThom on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:08pm
Length of a cubit notwithstanding, there is scriptural disagreement on how many cubits Goliath stood. The Dead Sea Scrolls say 4, plus one span, as do other sources. Not the six plus a span as is currently accepted.

And who did the measuring? I mean after he was killed his head was cut off, and before that I doubt that anyone on the Hebrew side took a tape to him. The whole question is on shaky ground.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Masiakasaurus on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:00pm

HurlinThom wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:08pm:
And who did the measuring? I mean after he was killed his head was cut off, and before that I doubt that anyone on the Hebrew side took a tape to him. The whole question is on shaky ground.

Now that I think about it, maybe the measure of his height was a boast from his own side (although the Philistines were ethnically close to the Jews in the same way as Pakistanis are to Indians) so the height could have even been an exaggeration from the beginning.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by David Morningstar on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:12pm

Goliath was the Philistine champion, so his impressive statistics would have been known all across the region.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by timann on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 2:44pm

David Morningstar wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:12pm:
Goliath was the Philistine champion, so his impressive statistics would have been known all across the region.

No, he was not the champion, he was one of several, the "sons of Rapha"(?).
timann

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by winkleried on May 6th, 2011 at 3:49pm
In one of my files from 2 employers ago ( when I had all sorts of access to academic datbases) was an paper on that very fact David. It is probably where they got that particular tid-bit of information from. I will try later this weekend to see if I can find it and give the bibliographical info for it. From what I remeber it all hinged on haow a particular ward was interpreted and I don't remember the details :(

Marc Adkins


David Morningstar wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:10am:
Four part article:

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-1-how-tall-was-goliath

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-2-where-did-the-stone-land

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-3-what-killed-goliath

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-4-what-difference-does-any-of-this-make

Heavy on religion, but the main points are:

Goliath was six feet seven inches tall

The stone struck him on the greave (lower leg armour) and dropped him, David then killed him with his own sword.

I am not 100% convinced by the greave suggestion but it is interesting.


Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by jpderidder on May 16th, 2011 at 12:37pm

Masiakasaurus wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 1:00pm:

HurlinThom wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:08pm:
And who did the measuring? I mean after he was killed his head was cut off, and before that I doubt that anyone on the Hebrew side took a tape to him. The whole question is on shaky ground.

Now that I think about it, maybe the measure of his height was a boast from his own side (although the Philistines were ethnically close to the Jews in the same way as Pakistanis are to Indians) so the height could have even been an exaggeration from the beginning.


just my 2 cnts but the philistines are were not related ethnically to the jews. this is an other thing many people dont know.  the philistines originated from grease or that region, hense the advanced weaponry and the fighting with champions (see the Iliad for cultural reference). they settled that region long before the jews came to judea.

the Palestinians are not related to the philistines but they are blood relatives of the jews through abraham.

this is not mend as a political statement just a historical one.
-------------------------
Vires et honestas



Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Masiakasaurus on May 16th, 2011 at 2:29pm
Geographically, the Philistines came from south Canaan, which is today the area to the east around the Agean Sea into the Mediterranean including Cyprus. The Greeks inhabited to opposite coast of the Agean. The Philistines had trade contacts with the Greek sea traders, but they did not come from Greece. Instead the Philistines had a long history of intermarrying with the Canaanites to the north and their culture and religion were the same as evidenced by figurines dug in in Philistine City-States. The Hebrew people are a cultural offshoot of the Canaanites in Middle Canaan but were not originally a different ethnicity. There are theories that the Philistines were the "Sea Peoples" that invaded Egypt during the reign of Ramses III or that the Philistines were descendants of the Ionians, but we know nothing about the Philistine language that would prove this. All we know is that some words in the Bible appear to be Proto-Indo-European instead of Semitic, but even that is speculation. Assuming the Philistines originally spoke a Proto-Indo-European language, the most likely reason is that they migrated north from a region of the West Asian Peninsula where Proto-Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic languages (including Semitic languages) was mixed. These people also intermarried with the Canaanites on the borders of Canaan, so it's likely that a good portion of the Philistines were part or mostly Canaanite. The Isrealites were descendants of West-Central Canaanites, and the Judeans were descendants of South-Western Canaanites so the Philistines were close to the Jews.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Thearos on May 21st, 2011 at 5:48am
http://stanford.academia.edu/AdrienneMayor/Papers/539288/Giants_in_Ancient_Warfare

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Sadrice on Jun 4th, 2011 at 6:36am

Masiakasaurus wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 7:10pm:
In response to Iron Goober in the Overlooked variable thread, taking the Bible literally must be done very carefully. Remember that you are reading an update of a translation of a translation of a translation (check my math: Original Aramaic to Greek to Latin to German/English and then modernized. 1 original, 3 translations, and a revision).

That only (sort of) applies to the new testament of the king james version.  Samuel was probably composed in Hebrew, and we still have the Hebrew version (though certainly not exactly the same Hebrew version), and modern translations are made directly from that, rather than using the vulgate (and as I recall Jerome prepared that part of the vulgate from the Hebrew, rather than using the septuagint).  

Even the new testament was almost certainly not originally in Aramaic.  Though Jesus and friends probably did most of their speaking in Aramaic, the overwhelming majority of bible scholars believe that the gospels were composed in Greek, which was the standard literary language.

(sorry to reply to a year old post just to nitpick, but I couldn't resist)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Masiakasaurus on Jun 4th, 2011 at 12:45pm
The Old Testament of the Bible was written in both Aramaic and Hebrew with multiple retanslations between the two and the Dead Sea Scrolls present evidence that the New Tesatament was written in a mix of Hebrew and Aramaic for some books and Greek for others. Interestingly, they used a very archaic form of the word "God" an an older form of the Hebrew Alphabet every time the word appeared which would be like English Bibles using the German word "Gott" in runes. Even if the New Testament was written in Greek, unless Jesus's spoken words were translated into Greek first they'd be Greek gibberish.

Even if you think you have the original language be careful, compare the Dead Sea Scrolls to other Hebrew and Greek versions of the New Testament and disparities appear. To copy, these books were written out by hand and small errors did start adding up. Over the time that the Bible was written the Hebrew Language also changed significantly and the Torah was changed to match. Shakespeare lived 400 years ago and modern readers have trouble understanding what he wrote even though English is their native language. The oldest hebrew writing we have is 3,000 years old. That makes 1000 years between the first know inscription and the Mishnaic Hebrew read during the time of Jesus and 3,000 years between that first Hebrew and Modern Hebrew.

Ignoring all that, what about metaphors and idioms? Even if they're translated right how are you supposed to understand them? I say again, be very careful taking the Bible literally because you cannot know what was originally written and you can be even less sure of what was originally meant.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Sadrice on Jun 4th, 2011 at 2:14pm
Certainly we don't have the same version of the text as was originally written, even if it's in (nominally) the same language, and my goodness the metaphors and idioms can be obtuse (eg in Job).  This is particularly apparent in the Torah, with the merging of separate sources and various redactions, but the Nevi'im certainly weren't passed down pristine either.  But as for Aramaic composition, my Hebrew bible teacher told me that the only evidence for Aramaic composition of any part of the bible is part of Daniel (would that be the "some books" you referred to?), and a direct quote attributed to Jesus or two.  Apparently, although Aramaic and Hebrew traded dominance as the common language of Israel several times, Hebrew was always the language of literature, especially scripture.  Doesn't mean he's right, but I took his word for it.

By archaic form, are you referring to their tendency to put some odd vowel diacritics on YHWH?  Because I was told that that was them putting the vowels for Adonai on the consonants for Yahweh, as a signal to the reader that they should say Adonai instead (which confused modernish scholars and made them think that Jehovah was a sensible transliteration).  This certainly wasn't "every time", as they used an incredible variety of names to refer to god, like Yahweh, Elohim, Elohe, Adonai, Yahweh Sebaot, El Shaddai, and a pile of others that have slipped my mind.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I agree totally with your main point, that is, that the bible has changed too dramatically over the millennia for taking it exactly literally to make any sense (not that it would even if we had the original).  I just take issue with you applying that particular string of translations to this particular bit of text.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Masiakasaurus on Jun 5th, 2011 at 2:21pm
Most of my historical information on how the ancient texts were written comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls, and significant portions of the New Testament Hebrew books contain direct Aramaic quotes. AFAIK none were totally Aramaic, but we have younger versions of the same books  exclusively in Hebrew which is evidence enough to me that someone went through and edited/translated them at lease once.

As for the archaic form, yes I am referring to the diacritic in addition to other details. The script used to write God was different from the rest of the text in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well. Best way I can describe it is that if the scrolls were written in English the word God would be Schwabacher while the rest of it would be in Times New Roman or Arial.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by kentuckythrower on Feb 10th, 2012 at 11:57pm
I've been reading 1 Samuel 17 here lately and after thinking about it all, I'd bet a dollar to anyone's dime that David didn't actually kill Goliath with the sling...only dropped him and then finished him off with Goliath's own sword. I have not a doubt in my mind this fight actually happened, but based upon my take of the reading...particularly the word "smote", I'd have to say it was a stunning...not a killing shot. According to the King James Version of this fight, in verse 50 we read that David "smote" Goliath and slew him. then in verse 51 it relates how David slew him with a sword. I have to point out that one definition of "smote" is "hit with a heavy blow". This seems much more plausible than an out-and-out killing shot. Regardless of the detail...David used a sling to knock out his enemy and Goliath was killed.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Dan on Dec 22nd, 2012 at 6:59pm

David Morningstar wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:10am:
Four part article:

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-1-how-tall-was-goliath

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-2-where-did-the-stone-land

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-3-what-killed-goliath

http://www.examiner.com/methodist-in-national/david-and-goliath-for-grown-ups-part-4-what-difference-does-any-of-this-make

Heavy on religion, but the main points are:

Goliath was six feet seven inches tall

The stone struck him on the greave (lower leg armour) and dropped him, David then killed him with his own sword.

I am not 100% convinced by the greave suggestion but it is interesting.



Just read this and 1st Sam 17, some interesting points but also some things I'd like to mention.

The word for greave and forehead are actually several letters apart. Brow or forehead is 'metsach' and greave or shin is 'mitshah'. As can be seen in this page and the following word H4697. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4696&t=KJV
And obviously, 'metsach' is the word used in scripture.

Very similar to our words 'help' and 'hell' (but even further apart). Similar spelling, but very clearly understood in their context.

His sheild bearer was also in front of him so that would lessen the probablility of getting in a good shot at his very well armored shins.

I'd like to see anyone take a full force shot to the forehead out of a shepeards sling and keep fighting. I know I'd be dead or in a very strong coma. Beaheading would definitly take you out. Granted, there wasn't a autopsy afterward, but I'm fairly certain just about anyone would be dead if they had a sling stone 'sunk in' their forehead.

Giants were also relatively common back then too. I personally am not sure exactly how tall Goliath was but there are records of other giants in the Bible, if that is of question. In 2nd Samuel 23, some of Davids' mighty men went to the Valley of Rephaim to fetch him a glass of cool water. 'Repahim' means 'giant'. And there are various other refererence through scripture.

It is possible Goliath was a Giant, but on the smaller side of giants, and still much larger than your average person.

Just some general scripture points that I felt were worth mentioning in relation to those articles.  :)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by RoyUK on Aug 20th, 2013 at 9:15pm
Hi guys,

Dont really intend to revive this thread as it seems as though it has gone through the mill already, but just reading the tail end here (not read anything before this) has anyone read beyond Biblical sources ? 

Flavius Josephus is writing in the first century AD and without doubt has to be taken seriously way before any manufactured Bibles after his time - especially King James versions. 

Anyhow, my point being here is that he states that Goliath was indeed hit in the forehead and it sunk into the brain - however, he goes on to say Goliath was STUNNED.  Then David runs up and decapitates him when Goliath is down.

I have no doubt the power of the sling against an unarmored man will probably knock him out - maybe kill him but only around 10% of the time.  I have little doubt a heavy pebble thrown from around 100+ feet could gain enough momentum to kill a man, but from a closer range of around 30 feet I am in doubt if this would do anything other than send him unconscious. 

Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Just my thoughts.

Don't mean to be reviving old posts, I am just surfing a site I know nothing of but loving every minute of it! 

Thanks  :)

Roy.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Steven on Aug 21st, 2013 at 3:18pm

RoyUK wrote on Aug 20th, 2013 at 9:15pm:
... I have little doubt a heavy pebble thrown from around 100+ feet could gain enough momentum to kill a man, but from a closer range of around 30 feet I am in doubt if this would do anything other than send him unconscious.  ...
Roy.


A thrown projectile does not gain momentum; at the release all of the momentum the projectile has or ever will have (unless ammo has rocket assist) begins to degrade due to drag forces. I always try to throw with the same force, whether the range is 100+ feet or 10+ feet ... the 10 foot shot will arrive with more momentum as the drag forces have had less time to act on the projectile ....
imao ... ;) ... and if that story is not true it should be.

mo·men·tum 
/mōˈmentəm/NounThe quantity of motion of a moving body, measured as a product of its mass and velocity.
The impetus gained by a moving object.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Dan on Aug 21st, 2013 at 3:55pm
Steven answered the momentum question well.


I've only been slinging for a few years and I have no doubt that the sling has enough potential to kill someone easily. David had been slinging his entire life, and was no doubt had more practice time than most of us so I don't doubt his capability/lethality with the sling.

I found this link while doing research for TSG. It goes into the DvsG story quite in depth and I figured yall might appreciate it. :)


http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/0917.htm

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by jlasud on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 5:50am
Just an average shot from close range,with a decent "pebble" of 150g ~5.3oz will dent/crack a skull on the forehead part. A good one will implant it into the skull,halfway sticking out. I know that. Period.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by RoyUK on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 5:13pm
Hi guys,

Well put Steve regarding momentum in a straight horizontal plane - but what about slinging downhill as armies generally did, surely the gain in momentum would be considerable at 100 feet and less so at 30 feet.  (Think I am grasping at straws here though lol  :D).

Anyhow, the point of my post was actually about an author whose text is considerably older than the Bible as it came down to us - even the earliest Bible we can find dates to 4th century AD, which is at least 300 years after Flavius Josephus writes. 

The interesting part with Flavius text is the use of the word "stunned" as though Goliath was not actually dead. The context of the passage with David then quickly rushing to decapitate Goliath (armored too) also makes me believe he may only have been stunned.  Remember Goliath was a giant of a man, a tough seasoned veteran, and a veritable giant Achilles-like-champion too, well able to take a knock on the head more than a common man I think, even if it did know him down I think given time he would certainly have killed David - whom he stupidly underestimated.

Thanks Dan for that link I will read it soon.  As a reader of history I prefer to put more weight in older writers rather than later ones, especially where the Bible is concerned.

Like I mentioned in another thread Caesar mentions one of his officers being hit square in the face by a Gaulish Slinger and he was still able to fight - though severely disabled.  With more thought and google searching though I do now think a slingshot is very likely to kill a man outright but only IF hit square in the head without armor - and was not built like old Goliath  ;)


Thanks guys. :)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by squirrelslinger on Aug 22nd, 2013 at 6:28pm
Please don't call slings slingshots. it drives me absolutly insane.


anyway... drag outweighs gravity EXCEPT on stuff past 45 degrees downhill(from horizontal)...

very, very few armies would be stupid enough to charge up a 45 degree slope longer than a few yards.

it does seem that it takes a few seconds for the projectile to stabilize in the air(actually only a second or so)... maybe that's what you are thinking of.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by RoyUK on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:54am
Many armies have stupidly attacked Roman armies up very steep hills - read Caesar Gallic Wars as simple example, but thanks for your comment.

Yep I meant sling, not slingshot - watching too many catapult videos at the moment.

Peace.  :)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Aug 28th, 2013 at 6:18pm

Quote:
well able to take a knock on the head more than a common man I think, even if it did know him down I think given time he would certainly have killed David - whom he stupidly underestimated.


a 'knock on the head'.

It's clear you have very little experience and knowlege of slings in action.
In The most recent scientific attempt to replicate the event louis pons livermore hit an head sized target with 3 times the force required to kill.

I myself in a simulated attack uphill at a target 50 meters away was putting enough power behind my throws to send the missiles - in a flat trajectory - over 50 metres beyond the actual target when i missed.

At the distances involved in a duel - I NEVER missed the target and with 5 shots at a large head - I can pretty much guarentee a good slinger would NEVER lose a duel with a man armed only with a sword or spear.

You're appear to be making the mistake most historians make - pete the hillfort man is a rare exception -  and that is to base your conclusions on your own actual or perceived ability.

For a close quarter battle david would have used large pebbles in the 8oz - 225g weight range. Which is most probably why he was only carrying five.
And he'd have thrown them with sufficient force to bring down an ox let alone a man.

Bear in mind david was nota callow youth but a young man and atrained warrior who had honed his slinging skills over many years asa shepherd where the sling would have been used daily to both herd the flocks and defend them from predators.
Any hit anywhere on goliaths body would have caused significant damage, anything from broken bones to internal injuries. Armour notwithstanding.
In the right hands a sling is a seriously dangerous weapon.
Goliath had bugger all chance of walking out of that arena.
   
lets put it this way the hardest throwing slinger in the modern era is Larry bray. He slung a stone 425 metres. Had that stone been intercepted by a human head in the first 20 metres of that flight - that human would have been heading straight to the morgue.

It's a bit more serious than a 'knock on the head'  ;)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by RoyUK on Sep 1st, 2013 at 5:45pm
Hi Aardvark,

I am only a beginner with slings in action as you rightly point out, but having slung them for 6 months and smacked myself in the brow with one using some fast heavy spin - having a huge lump even now might I add -  and having read historical accounts on top of this, I truly believe the sling to be a LETHAL WEAPON.  Do not get me wrong here.

Let me not underestimate this.  Having said that, I will state, David was in no way an ordinary warrior - Bible actually way underestimates him - and also Goliath is shown for the mammoth he is but also undermined somewhat.  No normal human could withstand a typical sling hit and this I know.

My original point was none of this really, but to point out ACTUAL historical DATA.  Flavius Josephus is a more reliable witness to events of his times and Biblical than any bible amended and edited 300 years after his time and beyond.

Thank you for your comments.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by squirrelslinger on Sep 13th, 2013 at 10:17pm
david might have gotten a concussion and been knocked out cold and soon to die, and david beheaded him ;)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by RoyUK on Sep 14th, 2013 at 10:00pm
Those are pretty much my thoughts Squirrelslinger, especially with the context.  I think Flavius is a way more reliable source of that era or especially of the era talked about, rather than any edited bible several hundred years later, and especially anything of King James era in 1600AD - massive propaganda environment. 

Not that it was any different before and when this is realized, we could live better if we only knew how to - without the indoctrination of the modern matrix.  That matrix has probably always been there though.

We live in a crappy world with idiots attempting to rule over us, and doing it very easily unfortunately.

I despise most of the human race right now.  We are way too simple.  We are machines, with machine minds.  We think if it don't affect us NOW then we don't care, no matter if it meant our neighbor being shut away for nothing.

We most of us have machine minds.  We are despicable.

I am sorry if any of that offends someone, it certainly will.  Such is life.   

You work 25 years of your life away, then on reaching 40 realize just how insane this world is.  I don't know who on here understands much of what I am typing, but it should reach some hearts and also healthy minds, especially those who still avoid fluoride, and aspartame.

Life in this world makes me sick sometimes.

This is my rant.  Love you all.

Safe slinging.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by jlasud on Sep 15th, 2013 at 1:45am
Hey RoyUK! Knowledge has the power to set one free.The only constant thing is change. Though with our perception,a few years can appear a long time,that's just a milisecond in eternity.
This is not a permanent situation,nor for you,nor for the world.
And if you will,be the change you want to see in the world.

You can be David with only a sling and 5 stones,and slew The Giant.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by squirrelslinger on Sep 15th, 2013 at 9:21am
I avoid aspertame..
but not flouride.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by jlasud on Sep 15th, 2013 at 4:04pm
I use a simple rule: What our ancestors didn't eat or wash themselves with for the last couple million years,it's not necessary,and probably harmful to our bodies, especially with higher exposure to them.

P.S. besides the last 200 years,when a bunch of clever guys were born.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Dec 4th, 2014 at 11:19am
here you are , a nem link of the video. the other was deleted.
enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xPhrgPvq6c&list=UUVMEEgWY0ZbVdSv0iS8fUPg

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by slingbadger on Dec 5th, 2014 at 6:39am
It states in the Bible that David cut off Goliath's head with his own sword. That's what likely killed him.
The problem is the uncertainty of Goliath's height. 8 cubits and a span. How thick was his skull at that height? 

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Bill Skinner on Dec 5th, 2014 at 11:33am
It also depends on what kind of sword he had.  Most bronze swords seem to have actually been used for thrusting more than chopping or slicing.

On the other hand if he had been carrying a khopesh or something similar, it wouldn't have been a problem.  A khopesh looks very similar to a sword but was actually more of a long bladed ax.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by TobyC on Sep 28th, 2015 at 5:34pm
So today in history we watched a Malcolm Gladwell video and it brought up some very good points. First off it stated how effective a sling was in the right hands(points in my book). Second it stated that goliath may have had a disorder, and provided some good evidence for it.
Here's the link http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_the_unheard_story_of_david_and_goliath?language=en

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 30th, 2015 at 9:58am
about time someone worked out goliath had no chance :-)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by slingbadger on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:35pm
An unusual twist on the David and Goliath story. From the French Metz Pontifical Manuscript, 1302.
metz_pontifical__1302.jpg (16 KB | 85 )

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Morphy on Dec 16th, 2016 at 9:35am
Seems legit.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 17th, 2016 at 8:45am
must be pope bunnyface :-)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Bill Skinner on Dec 18th, 2016 at 2:10pm
::)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by SlingerDave on Dec 19th, 2016 at 3:31pm
I tried to come up with a witty remark, but you got me beat C. A..

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 21st, 2016 at 7:02am
it's one weird picture and no mistake.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Jan 11th, 2019 at 3:28am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-a7fF3TW8

hello, we have new interesting video
enjoy

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Mersa on Jan 11th, 2019 at 6:34pm
Wonder if we can get a English version

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jan 11th, 2019 at 9:52pm

Mersa wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 6:34pm:
Wonder if we can get a English version

I would imagine.  All the interviews are in English, and the translation just dubbed over.  I've been looking but no luck so far.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by walter on Jan 12th, 2019 at 12:25pm
Excellent video balearic-sling! Thanks for sharing it with us  :thumb: 

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:02pm

balearic-sling wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 3:28am:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-a7fF3TW8

hello, we have new interesting video
enjoy

I was able to find the original video.  It looks like this clip is part of a documentary series called History of Weapons.  More specifically it's in the episode called Faster than the Enemy.  The entire series looks like it should be pretty interesting.  It's available from a company called ZDF Enterprises here: https://zdf-enterprises.de/en/catalogue/international/zdfeunscripted/history-biographies/history-of-weapons.

It doesn't look like it's available to purchase.  It is required to register with the site to watch the videos.  I would like to watch it, but still debating on whether or not to register.

Thanks for the clip balearic-sling!

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jan 21st, 2019 at 10:58am
german company - so you might need to install a vpn program to watch the videos from the states.
They're legit, registering shouldn't be a problem.

I'm still kicking myself, that when they contacted me to recommend a slinger, that i didn't say I'd do it myself 'Doh!'
:-)

That said, louis is a lot more telegenic than I am :-)

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by joe_meadmaker on Jan 21st, 2019 at 11:58am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Jan 21st, 2019 at 10:58am:
I'm still kicking myself, that when they contacted me to recommend a slinger, that i didn't say I'd do it myself 'Doh!'

Oh man!  That would have been extremely cool to do that.

Title: Re: david and goliath
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jan 22nd, 2019 at 11:19am
yeah, unfortunately it was the year before we did the hillfort experiments.

Had it been after I'd have known that I could hit a head at over 20 metres and would have talked them into taking me to israel.
But alas, it was not to be :-)

I still say luis makes a better goliath than a david :whistle: 

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