Slinging.org Forum
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl
General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> Statue of a Slinger?
https://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1196214609

Message started by Altay on Nov 27th, 2007 at 8:50pm

Title: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Altay on Nov 27th, 2007 at 8:50pm
I recently wrote a paper about Plato, and when I looked him up in my history book (The Western Heritage by Kagan) I found the picture below on the same page. The caption in the book read:

Quote:
The striding god from Artemisium is a bronze statue dating from about 460 B.C.E. It was found in the sea near Artemisium, the northern tip of the large Greek island of Euboea, and is now on display in the Athens archaeological museum. Exactly whom he represents is not known. Some have thought him to be Posiedon holding a trident; others believe he is Zeus hurling a thunderbolt. In either case, he is a splendid representative of the early Classical period of Greek sculpture.




I did some selective blurring to make the image somewhat less objectionable. Anyway, when I first glanced at the image, I immediately thought, Look! It's a Greek slinger! Is it just my imagination, or does he look like he's holding a sling (very close to the release on a figure-8)? I was thinking that perhaps the statue was originally made with a real sling attached to him, but it decayed/fell apart over time leaving the slinger behind. Any ideas?
slinger.png (1421 KB | )

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by curious_aardvark on Nov 28th, 2007 at 12:07pm
nope look at the back hand - it's grasping a shaft not a sling.
definitely some sort of spear.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Mordechaj on Nov 28th, 2007 at 5:06pm
staff-sling?


yeah, looks like a spear thrower to me too.  ;)

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by axon50 on Nov 28th, 2007 at 10:16pm
and even if the position was right, that would be some pretty thick sling cord he's holding.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Altay on Nov 28th, 2007 at 10:26pm

axon50 wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 10:16pm:
and even if the position was right, that would be some pretty thick sling cord he's holding.

Well, I was thinking he was keeping his hand loose (rather than making a fist), but I guess it does look more like he's holding a shaft because of the perfect O his fingers are forming. It's funny that that's the exact same position in which I stand when I'm slinging (just before the release). I didn't realize javelin-throwing was so similar to slinging.

However, it still doesn't look exactly like a spear/javelin holder to me. For one, he has his left hand pointing forward as if he's about to throw something in that direction, so I doubt it's a spear he's holding in his right hand. But if it is a javelin he has in his right hand, why is it aimed down? Looking at the angle his right hand makes with the ground, if he was holding a sling it would be up and about to release, but if he was holding a javelin it would be facing down and about to stab. Any ideas?

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by curious_aardvark on Nov 29th, 2007 at 11:09am
Okay spear fishing 101.
If that's poseidon and he's holding a trident (which seems likely) then that is the classic spear fishing stance.
You sort of aim down your left arm, it also helps to balance and stabilise you.

It's poseidon with an invisible trident - spear fishing. :-)

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Altay on Nov 29th, 2007 at 2:34pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 29th, 2007 at 11:09am:
It's poseidon with an invisible trident - spear fishing. :-)

Spear fishing! Okay, it makes sense now. I couldn't think of a good reason someone would aim a javelin down, but spear fishing makes perfect sense.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by funda_iucunda on Nov 29th, 2007 at 3:26pm
Obviously a spear, at least behind the blurring  ;)

funda

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by sv on Nov 30th, 2007 at 10:56am
there's nothing objectionable about this statue, it's a very fine sculpture, not porno. so why did you blur out the statue's carrot? it's not as if he's waving it at your auntie

SV


Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Mordechaj on Nov 30th, 2007 at 12:46pm
oh my God. i haven't noticed the blurring untill now.

that's really perverse.

why would you need to blurr it? is it something noone of us has ever seen yet? if there are such individuals here then it's be better to educate them on questions of human anatomy.


reminds me of a sea-side village who's fisherman regularly drowned because noone knew how to swim. and they didn't know how to swim because flesh is weak and bodies are sinfull, so it's better to ignore them and not show them at the beach, where they could learn how to swim. so they removed the possibility of temptation :)

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by funda_iucunda on Nov 30th, 2007 at 4:07pm
sv and mordechaj are right. A piece of art should be shown as it is. Otherwise we would harm the artist by changing his work.
By the way, did we ever gave honor at slinging.org to the most famous slinger ever created by an artist: Michelangelos "David"?

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Altay on Dec 5th, 2007 at 2:40pm

sv wrote on Nov 30th, 2007 at 10:56am:
there's nothing objectionable about this statue, it's a very fine sculpture, not porno. so why did you blur out the statue's carrot?

I was worried that it might offend someone somehow. I didn't realize that blurring it would be more offensive. If you'd like to see the "fine sculpturing" that is his carrot I could upload the unblurred version. Also, staring at a naked guy (to figure out whether or not he could be a slinger) was making me uncomfortable. Lastly, I wanted to try out GIMP. I've done blurring in Photoshop before and I wanted to see how easily I could do it in GIMP.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by sv on Dec 6th, 2007 at 8:26pm
it was a good find, and well spotted Altay. NB i don't think we want to see his thingy, or anyone's thingy, finely-sculptured or otherwise. blurring it just seemed a bit prudish but anyway we get the message of what the figure is about, with or without revelation of the organs of regeneration.

SV

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by funda_iucunda on Dec 8th, 2007 at 5:21pm
I read somewhere that in Berlin in the Arsenal Museum (Zeughaus) is a little bronce statue of a antique celtic slinger. Unfortunately the sling did not remain. But the author is convinced that it once had been a sling. The foto in that article is not very well printed. But I'll try to send it to the forum.

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by funda_iucunda on Dec 8th, 2007 at 5:49pm
Here (hopefully) come the fotos. It is from Alfred Haffner, Zur Schleuderwaffe im vorrömischen Gallien, Kurtrierisches Jahrbuch 1973 (foto: Staatliche Museen zu Berlin (former GDR). The statue holds an object that is identified as a biconic sling projectile as many of them had been found around Trier. There are some remains at the left Hand which lead to the assumption that the statue once hold a shield. Haffner writes that some authoers errouneously thought it beeing a spear thrower though the first publication identified it clearly as a slinger. The statue is estimated of around 300 before Christ.

funda iucunda
Schleuderer-Keltisch-Berlin.png (626 KB | )

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by aussieslinger on Dec 8th, 2007 at 10:46pm
Thanks for posting that most interesting piece of artwork. Notice the arms, they are almost exactly in the same position as the figure in our slinging.org logo, further supportng the notion that the statuette is a slinger and not a javelin thrower. But what really intrigued me was the legs; the slinger is kneeling on one knee! I had never considered it possible to sling in anything other than standing position previously, which exposes you to enemy. However kneeling behind a shield? So I gave it a quick try out and it works! You can sling virtually unimpeded and yet be almost fully concealed.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by funda_iucunda on Dec 9th, 2007 at 3:58pm
The whole motion is very realistic. I tried slinging on my knees too. It is some kind of tricky but possible and with some training you certainly shoot as good as standing on the feet. I suppose that from this position one wouldn't through successfully with a spear, because with that you need much more motion of the arms.

This statue shows the slinger in a position he would prrbably take in the heat of a close range fight where shelter is of the essence. Unfortunately it is not clear for what purpose the statue was made and for what environment it was foreseen. The statue is said to be found in Rome, but the only fact we know about it is that it was bought 1909 from an art or antiques trader. By conclusion from the style it is an Italian piece of the 3. century before Christ but it might be from 1. century before Christ as well.

Encouraged by my success of scanning yesterday I add here a trial of reconstruction of the possible original shape (drawing: Dietmar Kup) which I found in the same article. The shield is a celtic form because the slinger is identified by the "torques" and helmet as celtic. The drawing expresses in a very realistic way how the warrior can prepare the shot behind his shield.

funda iucunda

Schleuderer-Keltisch-Rekonstruktion.png (445 KB | )

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 12th, 2007 at 8:17am
the german one is tricky. without the finger positions it's actually impossible to say what he as holding.
But from the body position I'd say it was far more likely to be a spear than a sling. Again the angle of aim is pretty much downward.
Given the position of the rest of the statue's body it would be unlikely to have been a sling.
Given that a spear and shield were a far more common occurence than a sling and a shield - certainly at close range which is what this looks like.

Bu without the hands you can't say one way or the other - but spears were more common than slings.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by funda_iucunda on Dec 12th, 2007 at 4:16pm
CA,

the statue held not only a shield in its left hand (what was indicated by remains of bronce and solder) but still holds a biconic shaped object of the size of a sling stone. That was the reason why in the majority of publications regarding this statue is interpreted as a slinger. The position of the sling itself in the reconstuction is a mere assumption. But it would be interesting to get a closer look to the right hand of the original, because the reconstruction shows the release end lying on the hand. So this string might be visible on the hand.
Unfortunately I won't get soon to Berlin but I feel I have to schedule a stop in that museum when I once come along.

funda iucunda


Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 13th, 2007 at 8:26am
ah ha - more information.
So possibly evidence that slings were used at close range.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by axon50 on Dec 13th, 2007 at 11:19pm
i think we can safely say that that's not a statue of a slinger. ::)..... merry christmas!

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 14th, 2007 at 8:16am
well given it was holding both a sling cord and a spare glande - I think it probably is :-)
Evidence seems pretty convincing.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by axon50 on Dec 14th, 2007 at 10:04pm

funda_iucunda wrote on Dec 9th, 2007 at 3:58pm:
The whole motion is very realistic. I tried slinging on my knees too. It is some kind of tricky but possible and with some training you certainly shoot as good as standing on the feet. I suppose that from this position one wouldn't through successfully with a spear, because with that you need much more motion of the arms.

This statue shows the slinger in a position he would prrbably take in the heat of a close range fight where shelter is of the essence. Unfortunately it is not clear for what purpose the statue was made and for what environment it was foreseen. The statue is said to be found in Rome, but the only fact we know about it is that it was bought 1909 from an art or antiques trader. By conclusion from the style it is an Italian piece of the 3. century before Christ but it might be from 1. century before Christ as well.

Encouraged by my success of scanning yesterday I add here a trial of reconstruction of the possible original shape (drawing: Dietmar Kup) which I found in the same article. The shield is a celtic form because the slinger is identified by the "torques" and helmet as celtic. The drawing expresses in a very realistic way how the warrior can prepare the shot behind his shield.

funda iucunda

that picture had german at the bottom, i can read it, yay (it was worth making the post about). ;D

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by axon50 on Dec 14th, 2007 at 10:07pm
it could possibly be a statue of a slinger (the only reason why i'm saying it's possible is because of the position of the finger and thumb on the back of the right hand). but I don't really think it is.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by bigkahuna on Dec 15th, 2007 at 6:14am
He looks like a spear chucker too!!   You loose your mobility if you are kneeling to sling. That makes you a nice stationary target, shield or no shield. Fire and move, fire and move.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by curious_aardvark on Dec 15th, 2007 at 12:29pm
just looks like a bloke running to me. the weights on the back foot because he's about to throw.
He's not kneeling or even vaguely in an about-to-kneel position :-)

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by funda_iucunda on Dec 15th, 2007 at 3:56pm
axon50,

before you go celebrating christmas, please give more reason for your assumption. The position of the fingers of the right hand is the most vage because the fotos are not very detailed in this point.


bigkahuna,

I thought about a spear too. But a spear would be even more cumbersome to throw from a kneeling position. With a spear it would be rather the use as a lance tossed against the enemy. But fencing with a spear in a kneeling position would be the sure death.
I don't agree that the modern rule of "fire and move" is applicable to ancient warfare. Fighting next to each other in big "blocks" does not allow quick moves. That is only possible on a modern battlefield where there is much space around each combattant, tank etc. The shield would not fit to Fire and move because thats a rule when sufficient shelter is not available. As we know the antique shields where pretty sufficient and worth to carry their weight. If "fire and move" would apply the whole statue wouldn't have made any sense in its time.

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by axon50 on Dec 15th, 2007 at 8:43pm
okay okay........ the position his fingers are in are exactly the way i hold my sling (but he's holding it much more loosely). it look to me like he's hold the release cord between the finger closest to his thumb and his thumb, and he's about to do an overhand throw at something about 15-25 meters away, that's what it looks like like t' me. :P

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Ethan on Dec 16th, 2007 at 9:39am
Hmmm... Very interesting pieces of work...

The sketch shows what would appear to be a retention loop around the base of his thumb. I haven't seen one of those before, and it doesn't seem like it would be very practical.  :-?

*modification* Or is it just the fold of his thumb?

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by big_sling_gland on Dec 17th, 2007 at 9:14am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 12:07pm:
nope look at the back hand - it's grasping a shaft not a sling.
definitely some sort of spear.

I think that it is a sling because I`ve seen a illistration that caught my eye after reading this. it looks like a slinger from a side view that is holding a sling that looks like a leghthend i-bolt
(a small metal shaft with a loop at the end) the way that the statue is holding the sling.And if altay is correct the may have just worn away take a look :o
assyrian-slinger.jpg (36 KB | )

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by big_sling_gland on Jan 6th, 2008 at 6:40pm

Altay wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 8:50pm:
I recently wrote a paper about Plato, and when I looked him up in my history book (The Western Heritage by Kagan) I found the picture below on the same page. The caption in the book read:

Quote:
The striding god from Artemisium is a bronze statue dating from about 460 B.C.E. It was found in the sea near Artemisium, the northern tip of the large Greek island of Euboea, and is now on display in the Athens archaeological museum. Exactly whom he represents is not known. Some have thought him to be Posiedon holding a trident; others believe he is Zeus hurling a thunderbolt. In either case, he is a splendid representative of the early Classical period of Greek sculpture.




I did some selective blurring to make the image somewhat less objectionable. Anyway, when I first glanced at the image, I immediately thought, Look! It's a Greek slinger! Is it just my imagination, or does he look like he's holding a sling (very close to the release on a figure-8)? I was thinking that perhaps the statue was originally made with a real sling attached to him, but it decayed/fell apart over time leaving the slinger behind. Any ideas?

What, Are you the fcc of statues?!

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by funda_iucunda on Jan 7th, 2008 at 3:12pm
big sling gland,

just for us non native speakers, please, what is the meaning of "fcc"?

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by wannabeslinger on Jun 24th, 2008 at 10:57pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 12:07pm:
nope look at the back hand - it's grasping a shaft not a sling.
definitely some sort of spear.


My thoughts exactly, a brilliant statue either way  :-?

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Dale on Jun 30th, 2008 at 12:23am
Funda_Iucunda,

This is not timely (like, six months late) but, to answer your question about what means "fcc": It is the Federal Communications Commission, a United States government bureau charge with regulating the use of radio and television.  One of the things they do, is try to keep people from saying rude things "on the air".  The FCC will levy stiff fines against a broadcast company (be it television station, or nationwide network) if they permit someone to say certain words.

So when big_sling_gland asked if Altay was "the fcc of statues", he was indirectly asking why Altay took it upon himself to obscure part of the statue.

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by curious_aardvark on Jun 30th, 2008 at 5:34pm
lmao - and there's me been trying to work out work the other two words were ;-)
I thought I knew what the F stood for lol

Title: Re: Statue of a Slinger?
Post by Archimedes on Jun 30th, 2008 at 6:16pm
Funda_Iucunda, I would suggest that 'fire and move' was exactly the tactic used by ancient light missile troops...it was the heavy infantry that fought and moved in blocks, they had the armor and equipment to do it.  Light missile troops, on the other hand, had no armor, other than possibly a light sheild, and lighter weapons and equipment...if they tried to go toe-to-toe with the heavy infantry they'd be slaughtered.

On a completely different note, I've been trying to learn Mr. Larry Bray's distance style as shown in one of C_A's video clips...and I would note that the statue of the "kneeling" slinger, if you were to set it upright, standing on the extended left leg, the statue's upper body would be leaning left and forward of balance, the left arm would be forward and low, the right arm would be high and behind(coming forward) and the right leg would behind coming forward over the balance point.  This is a pretty good match for how Mr. Bray is positioned the instant before he releases....check it out and let me know if you agree (one caveat: the video clip doesn't show the lower legs and feet, so I could be wrong as well)

WRG  

Slinging.org Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2024. All Rights Reserved.