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Message started by loh_kah_hoe on Jul 14th, 2006 at 7:41am

Title: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Jul 14th, 2006 at 7:41am
Is that story a real event? ???

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by nightweave on Jul 14th, 2006 at 10:21am
loh_kah_hoe,

Well now that depends on several things.
Are you christian?
Do you believe the bible is a factual account?
And your relgious out look.

Now being rasied a christian, but now not so much a believer any more. I can say honestly I don't know but it is a great story.

Weather it is true or not, all I can say is all myths and ledgens haves some true too them.

Beyond that I don't have a time machine so I can not confirm.

nightweave

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by slingbadger on Jul 14th, 2006 at 10:27am
Well,,, Goliath would have been about 9 feet tall. That is not beyond the realm of possibility.
 Personally, I think its more along the idea of a cautionary tale. It also shows what the simple man ( or kid,David's are really isn't mentioned) can do against a better armed adversary.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Jul 14th, 2006 at 12:39pm
In German TV was some days ago a documentation about David. I have not seen all, but they analyzed also the slinging event and assume that there is some historical content in it. They also analyzed slinging and measured speeds of up to "90 kph" if I did not mishear, which is embarrasing slow.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Jul 14th, 2006 at 8:56pm
I'm not Christian and I'd have never heard of David and Goliath if I didn't search for slings. ???

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by siguy on Jul 16th, 2006 at 9:04pm
really? that's interesting.
btw, also try searching under slingshot, as alot of people don't know the difference

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jul 17th, 2006 at 8:11pm

It was fairly common in that era for opposing armies to select their best warriors to fight in order to avoid greater bloodshed.  

As to the veracity of the biblical account.....here is but one source of interesting information:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A9914268


And as we already know, the power and accuracy potential of the sling is more than enough to have accomplished the alleged task.


I found the following DVD fairly intriguing:


http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1286661



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Jul 17th, 2006 at 9:01pm
I remember! ;D I was searching for slingshots, then I stumbled across this website. :D Then a 'new' weapon was introduced to me! 8)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by siguy on Jul 17th, 2006 at 9:37pm
something like how i found this site, but i think i was searching for sling because i had remembered it from long ago

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jul 17th, 2006 at 10:39pm

There are a wealth of, as yet unknown, 'primitive' implements which make creative use of one's biomechanical potential.  I daresay enough to fill several dimensions alternate to our own.  I sometimes wonder why we don't see more of them in the Sci Fi genre.


8)


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by nightweave on Jul 18th, 2006 at 1:58am
TS,

I don't know either but thanks for the Tip. (I'm SF writer)

nightweave

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Loki on Jul 18th, 2006 at 11:42am
I have been studying ancient religions for years and they have not found any proof what so ever that David even existed, much less the bones of Goliath. And I was raised christian (though it should be called neo-christian) though I am not now, I heard the story as a child. Though I should say at this point that I do not think of the Bible as a historical text, but instead it is a book of stories meant to teach ppl morals and ethics.

Loki

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jul 18th, 2006 at 2:41pm
If you'll read the information at the link above, you'll find that mention of the "House of David" is a matter of archaeological record.  Such writing carries dynastic indices which, when coupled with other finds, shows conclusively that such an account as David & Goliath was well within the realm of possibility.  


When we look at the facts we already know.....we can readily ascertain that such account or one of high similarity was not only possible, but probable as well, given the variety of battles settled by single combat.


We know what the sling can do, and to find record that someone actually did it is, to me.....no indication of embellishment.


:)




TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Loki on Jul 18th, 2006 at 3:42pm
At no point did I say that the event was not possible, all I said was that no proof of said events has EVER been found, thats all. In no way am I discounting the idea that some of the events in the Bible did not happen. Not even The Knights Templar found any proof that David or even his son Solomon existed, much less their kingdoms. That being said, if thier kingdoms did not exist how much else is fabricated?

Loki

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Loki on Jul 18th, 2006 at 3:47pm
I almost forgot to say something. The Bible was written by men, just like all holy text, and the bottom line is that men are inherently flawed and fallible.

Loki

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jul 18th, 2006 at 4:03pm
Again, I feel it is important to refute your claim that 'no evidence whatsoever'  exists regarding David as having been a real person of importance.

Obviously you have either overlooked such evidence or, as is your right, have chosen to discount it entirely.

The following is an excerpt from this website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A9914268



Quote:
Despite the accounts of David's life and exploits as recorded in the Bible, many scholars have doubted that King David actually existed.

However, in 1868 an inscribed basalt stone, dating from the 9th Century BC - known as the Moabite Stone2 or the Mesha Stela - was discovered at Dibon, Jordan; an ancient city east of the Dead Sea, by FA Klein, a German missionary. The stone was 1.1m high and 0.6m in breadth and in thickness, rounded at the top. It consisted of thirty-four lines, written in the ancient Hebrew alphabet, a script closely related to Phoenician; and was set up by Mesha3 at Dan as a record and memorial of his victories.

The stone was, unfortunately, much fragmented but in 1993 a French scholar, Andre Lemaire, who had spent seven years piecing it all together, discovered the words 'House of David'. Line 31 of the Moabite Stone contains the words '...the sheep of the land. And the house (of Da)vid dwelt in Horonen'. This was reported in Biblical Archaeology Review, May-June, 1994. and created such a sensation that it was also reported on the front page of The New York Times. This inscription showed that Israel and Judah were important kingdoms in the 9th Century BC, and refuted the positions of those scholars who claimed that these were never nations of any significance, and even disputed that David had ever been at the head of a united monarchy.

A report in Biblical Archaeology Review, March-April 1994, states:

Avraham Biran and his team of archaeologists found a remarkable inscription from the 9th Century BC that refers to the 'House of David' and to the 'King of Israel'. This is the first time that the name David has been found in any inscription outside the Bible. That the inscription refers not simply to David but to the 'House of David', the dynasty of the great Israelite king, is even more remarkable.


There are numerous sources as to the veracity of these claims and many other biblical accounts.


Here is but a single example:


http://www.probe.org/content/view/31/77/


I respect your opinion Loki, however, based on the volume of evidence that exists as a matter of open and public record, I find that the existence of David, along with an impressive number of other characters and events, all a matter of historical Bible record, are also in agreement with Archaeological findings.


In the end, no matter one's perspective.....Loki, you are correct.  Men are not infallible.  And one must become accustomed to taking another's word as the basis for making many an important decision.  


May we all choose wisely that which we choose to incorporate each, into his or her personal character, as gleaned from the words of others....


Nay, even ourselves.



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Loki on Jul 18th, 2006 at 4:27pm
I think for the sake of the others on this forum we should take this particular disscusion to yahoo, i sent you my yahoo id.

Loki

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jul 18th, 2006 at 4:50pm
My statements are largely meant to be of possible service to Loh_Ka_hoe who posed the question....and I see no need to repair to private discussion as long as civility is maintained.   However, I am also open to private discussion here on the site.


:)


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Jan 29th, 2007 at 10:24am
If it's real, I want to know what style did David use to fling the rock! So quick and powerful that Goliath couldn't see or block? ;D

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Jan 29th, 2007 at 11:07am
I'd guess it would be something like the Apache-throw.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Jan 29th, 2007 at 11:12am
So, I guess it would probably be a style without spins like helicopter..... Just one way go. A style for face-to-face combat, like the apache-throw.... ::)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Feb 8th, 2007 at 1:35pm
The Apache style would have worked, or the style of Bernini's statue of David (here and here (the statue is frozen just before David dropped the rock and swung -- Matthias and I have each reconstructed a style that looks like the statue at that moment, and it is very quick and powerful).  Figure-8 would have worked also: even though there is a windup, the figure-8 is so fast that it is deceptive.  Think about it: it looks like the guy is swinging the sling in a lazy way, like he was going to lob one high and try to drop it on your head, and then suddenly it snaps -- and then your headbones snap.  The figure-8 is the fastest of all the styles I have tried; Goliath would not have had time to raise his shield to block the stone, if David was within 30 yards or so.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by winkleried on Feb 8th, 2007 at 3:30pm
Never could get the fig-8 to work so I have no idea of it's speed. on over/sidehand styles. I definately agree the Apache style ( or something similar to it) would definately have the speed and power to do the job. I also tend to use a style similar to the Bernini and can second the thought that it too comes out with a heck of a lot of velocity and power.

Marc Adkins


Dale wrote on Feb 8th, 2007 at 1:35pm:
The Apache style would have worked, or the style of Bernini's statue of David (here and here (the statue is frozen just before David dropped the rock and swung -- Matthias and I have each reconstructed a style that looks like the statue at that moment, and it is very quick and powerful).  Figure-8 would have worked also: even though there is a windup, the figure-8 is so fast that it is deceptive.  Think about it: it looks like the guy is swinging the sling in a lazy way, like he was going to lob one high and try to drop it on your head, and then suddenly it snaps -- and then your headbones snap.  The figure-8 is the fastest of all the styles I have tried; Goliath would not have had time to raise his shield to block the stone, if David was within 30 yards or so.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by winkleried on Feb 9th, 2007 at 3:21pm
Here's an intresting one I have an article that discusses that david may not have hit Golith in the forehead. the arguement is based on some neuances of ancient hebrew. the target according to the paper was that david was aiming for Golith's leg
Not syaing it's what really happened but it's definately something to sit and ponder one night.
I post the actual reference when i get home

Marc Adkins


FunSlinger wrote on Feb 9th, 2007 at 3:24am:
There's no doubt that a smooth river stone could be slung with enough velocity to crush skull-bone and instantly kill a man. The original question being did David exist and did he kill a man known as Goliath with a sling....aside from historical accounts and some artifacts to suggest that David did exist and rule the jews for a time, I believe and take on faith the account of David killing Goliath.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Feb 9th, 2007 at 8:23pm
Aiming for the leg? That makes sense too.... :-? Accuracy is really strange..... A real master can hit an intended target for sure with a projectile weapon. ::)

Off topic: there is a man called Rufus Hussey, also known as the beanshooterman, who can hit a target for sure with a tree fork slingshot. During his interviews, the interviewers must put a target close to his own body, and the man will shoot at it! Like holding a target in the hand, or putting a target on the head! He seemed to have never missed any shots. :o

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Feb 9th, 2007 at 8:34pm
Sounds like a very good way to get rid of pesky reporters ... those with brains, consider the risk and leave; those without, stay and hold the target.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by winkleried on Feb 9th, 2007 at 9:59pm
Ok here is the reference:
Deem, Ariella. "...And the Stone Sank into his Forehead. A note on 1 Samuel XVII 49." Vetus Testamentum, Vol 28, Fasc. 3, p349-351. July 1978

I'll discuss a bit of it in my next posts

Marc Adkins


winkleried wrote on Feb 9th, 2007 at 3:21pm:
Here's an intresting one I have an article that discusses that david may not have hit Golith in the forehead. the arguement is based on some neuances of ancient hebrew. the target according to the paper was that david was aiming for Golith's leg
Not syaing it's what really happened but it's definately something to sit and ponder one night.
I post the actual reference when i get home

Marc Adkins


FunSlinger wrote on Feb 9th, 2007 at 3:24am:
There's no doubt that a smooth river stone could be slung with enough velocity to crush skull-bone and instantly kill a man. The original question being did David exist and did he kill a man known as Goliath with a sling....aside from historical accounts and some artifacts to suggest that David did exist and rule the jews for a time, I believe and take on faith the account of David killing Goliath.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by winkleried on Feb 9th, 2007 at 10:03pm
The authof the paper discusses a couple of other incidents in hebrew history where the leg was intended target of the sling and then killed the bad guy with his own weapon.
Basicly it's a variation of shoot them in the leg to disable them and them get in close while they are otherwise occupied and then take them out permantly.

Marc Adkins


loh_kah_hoe wrote on Feb 9th, 2007 at 8:23pm:
Aiming for the leg? That makes sense too.... :-? Accuracy is really strange..... A real master can hit an intended target for sure with a projectile weapon. ::)

Off topic: there is a man called Rufus Hussey, also known as the beanshooterman, who can hit a target for sure with a tree fork slingshot. During his interviews, the interviewers must put a target close to his own body, and the man will shoot at it! Like holding a target in the hand, or putting a target on the head! He seemed to have never missed any shots. :o


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on Feb 10th, 2007 at 3:32am
The most unexpected event for David himself was that he killed Goliath with the first shot. Because he had selected five stones when preparing himself for the fight. For me that sounds a little bit too realistic for being a "fairy tale".

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Feb 10th, 2007 at 5:21am

funda_iucunda wrote on Feb 10th, 2007 at 3:32am:
The most unexpected event for David himself was that he killed Goliath with the first shot. Because he had selected five stones when preparing himself for the fight. For me that sounds a little bit too realistic for being a "fairy tale".

funda iucunda


Makes sense too. ::) :P

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 14th, 2007 at 12:18pm
no no no, you got it all wrong - goliath had some brothers. five brothers = five stones :-)
P.O.P

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Feb 15th, 2007 at 8:54am
:-?

C_A, what does P.O.P stand for?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 15th, 2007 at 9:00am
lol euthenistically p.o.p - piece of p**s. - or qed or blindingly obvious :-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on Feb 15th, 2007 at 5:00pm
Com on aardvark,

give us a lesson but no p**s.  Many of us are no native speakers and greedy to enter the inner circles.  ;)

funda

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Houndog on Feb 15th, 2007 at 11:11pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 14th, 2007 at 12:18pm:
no no no, you got it all wrong - goliath had some brothers. five brothers = five stones :-)
P.O.P

First off i never have seen this topic on the forums before so here is my input:
I am Christian and strongly believe everything that the Bible says (call me radical...whatever) therefore i truthfully believe the story of David and Goliath. Now with my understanding there is very little possibility that David could have faced the giant Goliath without the help of God. We as slingers of course know the ability of the sling to kill and we also know that it is realatively (greatly) hard to hit a target. And of course we know that David was a shepherd and most shepherds in that day were quite used to using a sling (and very good) It is also my understanding and belief that Goliath was covered from "head to toe" in very thick armor and also a shield. (See 1 Samuel 17 for details) and David had to hit the only flesh part that was showing (that being between his eyes around the forehead)
Now in reference to the 5 stones theorem quoted above. I doubt David was insecure about hitting Goliath, he knew that he had God on his side and he couldnt miss with His help. (maybe he was just comfortable with carrying 5 stones) So...I have heard the idea of Goliath having some 4 brothers that David was afraid might come out and try to kill him if he prevailed over the Philistine (Goliath) (wouldnt you feel better about taking 5 stones into battle rather than just 1 :D) so David had some backup stones in case of an attack. But in the aftermath of David killing Goliath the other Philistines realized that a little shepherd boy (with a BIG God) could defeat their champion warrior, they fled from the battle.

There is my 2 cents worth.
Think about it seriously.
8-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Feb 16th, 2007 at 12:19am
Even though I'm not christian, I believe the events in the bible too. ::)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 17th, 2007 at 9:05am
no offence loh-ka-hoe but in recent months you've shown a willingness to believe pretty much everything you read :-)
At some point in your life you are going to have to apply some sort of common sense judgement.

As for the david and goliath thing - I've said it before, shepherds and slings versus sheep stealing soldiers would have been a common occurence.

And if the sling was my principle weapon I'd have more than just 5 stones Hell I'd have all the stones I could carry. And I'd start firing when the big slow armoured bast*ard was barely in sight :-)

You would have had as many shots as you liked it's not like a big bloke in full armour could ever catch a fast fit unarmoured kid unless he stood still too long.

Nope folks, anyway you cut it, it was shooting fish in a barrel and one on one goliath was dead meat from the minute he stepped on the field of war :-)

and in the spirit of the famous lines from a movie thread: - the untouchables:- 'just like a philistine to bring a sword to a sling fight :-)'

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wannabeslinger on Feb 17th, 2007 at 2:12pm
i believe it was real and i remember a study that said it was a real event also  ;D

it said a normal person of the time would be roughly 5ft and goliath was around 7'9 so... also it said a person in goliath's tribe would normally be 6ft so it definitly sounds possible

also there is a tribe in  africa that is full of people who average 6'5 so it proves that height gene can be isolated in one group

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Feb 17th, 2007 at 4:26pm
You have got to consider the situation in which the old testament was written. Many people from Israel were took as slaves to Babylon and some where starting to convert their religion. As far as I heard that is when this books were written. They were supposed to preserve the culture and to remember the history of Isreal. So I guess the part about the history of Isreal is as accurate as the authors could remember.

To me that means that the story about the future King David might as well have happend like that. However I do not believe the stuff like "we are the people of God and God helped us to slaughter our foes" or "God was angry with us, that is why God let our foes hit us". I consider myself Christian and I believe in a God of love (hehe, I do not even believe that hell exists :)). But now I am probably going too deep into a theological discussion.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Feb 17th, 2007 at 9:10pm
Hell? I think it is mentioned in most religions....  ::)  :)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Mordechaj on Feb 18th, 2007 at 6:27am
thread lightly upon this topic. i sense much potential drama.  ;)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 18th, 2007 at 11:13am
yep what funslinger said :-)
lol
religion is one of those things that is truly individual. You get 100 priests and you have 100 different interpretations of their particular holy book.

If you bring the subject up then you must be prepared to enter into sensible debate on it, regardless of what you own beliefs might be - nobody elses are ever going to be exactly the same.
Just so long as nobody gets too worked up I believe (lol) religious discussion is good clean fun.
But once you start taking it seriously then you get the whole mess that exists with islam at the moment.

If someone's faith is strong - it would not matter one jot what anyone else said about that belief. I tend towards the theory that people who get angry at someone elses opinion of their beliefs, do not hold those beliefs very strongly. And are actually getting angry because they don't believe as strongly as they think they should.

As for the old testament - it's the only religious book I've read cover to cover, and most of it - in my opinion - are fables designed to instruct in how to live - what the authors believed - was a good and god fearing life.
All christians should remember that the god of the old testament is the jewish god jehovah (ducks rain of stones) and not the god of the new testament. Jehovah (any women in this crowd ?) was a very mercurial god who interfered frequently in the lives of men, the god of the new testament makes a virtue of never interfering at all - not the same god.
I am also eternally amused that a group of people who worship and believe in a fundamentalist Jewish rabbi - are actually generally inimical to jews. What's that all about ?
And it can't just be the aeon long debate over whether or not jews should be allowed to eat bacon sandwiches.

So, no I don't believe there was a specific david and goliath incident. I believe it's a parable based on common occurence that essentially teaches:- don't judge a book by it's cover :-)
And was intended to showcase david's ability to make the most of a bad situation.

And if that's not a deep enough theological discussion - then bring it on !
lol  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Feb 18th, 2007 at 5:40pm

FunSlinger wrote on Feb 18th, 2007 at 12:22am:
I am confused on what basis you would consider yourself a Christian but not believe in hell.


The basis I consider myself a Christian on is that I am baptized and confirmed, go to church more often than most people in my age in Germany do (ok, that is not hard ;-)) and think that there are a lot of good lessons to learn from Jesus and the bible. But I question (almost) everything.

Now about hell. I think that when you die you will see your deeds and their consequences through a "true conscience". I guess that can hurt a lot and you might call it "hell".

But I do not believe that this is permanent or a punishment. There is a nice allegory Jesus used: A son receives money and trust from his father and sets out into the world. However he wastes the money in unethical actions (gambling, whores,...). At the end he lost all the money and he has to return to his father. He feels very bad about it and expects to be punished (kept as a slave) by his father. When he arrived at home and told his story, his father does not punish him but makes a celebration that he has returned. That is what I believe and that is for me in a conflict with the idea of eternal punishment.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Feb 18th, 2007 at 8:29pm
Have to wait until my death to see for myself! :o :-X

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on Feb 19th, 2007 at 4:24pm
I'm not sure whether someone has put the following question already (frankly speaking I'm too lazy to read the whole topic through):

Is there any reason why the story of David and Goliath shouldn't be real?

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Tint on Feb 19th, 2007 at 7:26pm
Yeah, I never doubted it.  There must have been thousands of witnesses.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Feb 19th, 2007 at 9:21pm
The throws from the ancient warriors were described as "kill a horse" or slightly less powerful the the early muskets...., I think they can really kill horses with slings! Even a giant like Goliath died from the sling shot. ::) :o

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 20th, 2007 at 6:39am
There's no actual reason for david and goliath not being an actual historical event.
However I believe that it's only mentioned in the old testament, which is not an historical record but a series of stories to illustrate life.  Bear in mind that those who write 'historical texts' for religious reasons are not impartial in any way - so the truth is invariably substituted for something that gives a better impression or serves a better purpose. ie: in this case showing David as chosen by his god.

If there were corraborating historical texts that also described the same battle/events - then yeah I'd go for it.
But in their absence I have to see it as a fable based on possible generalities.

As far as the heaven hell thing goes. If you believe the bible then you believe that god cast lucifer morningstar down and created hell.
So is it that you simply don't believe in angels or that you don't believe in an afterlife where souls are sorted into good and bad ?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Feb 20th, 2007 at 8:56am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 20th, 2007 at 6:39am:
As far as the heaven hell thing goes. If you believe the bible then you believe that god cast lucifer morningstar down and created hell.
So is it that you simply don't believe in angels or that you don't believe in an afterlife where souls are sorted into good and bad ?


The bible has a lot of valuable information but I do not believe every word literally as it was written, translated and edited by humans.

I believe in an afterlife, but I do not believe in an eternal punishment. Which soul would be good and which would be bad? Every human has "good" sides and "bad" sides.

As I have already written I do believe that when you die you might feel a very heavy conscience that might hurt. At least my limited human conscience can already hurt a lot. I guess the idea that this pain might be eternal and a punishment was an idea that frightened humans got.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Feb 20th, 2007 at 12:49pm
whatever works for you  :-)

Personally I'm just too cynical to believe in a god of gods.

Although I do have a soft spot for guanyin, but that's another story lol

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Feb 20th, 2007 at 1:15pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Feb 20th, 2007 at 12:49pm:
whatever works for you  :-)


Life would be boring if everybody had the same default beliefs, wouldn't it? ;)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by riverwindflutes on Feb 23rd, 2007 at 4:53pm
Many events have been proven to have taken place, as well as places and locations have also been found to have existed, that no longer exist today, through archeology, excavation and and the reading of ancient languages and scripts, which leads me to conclude that this event, in all probability did take place, I also think that the Bible does give us a good and acurate history of ancient man and what life was like back then.
Of course all books that were written, were written by men who are indead fallible,
I wonder if in a thousand years, men will pick apart Einstein's theory of relitivity, saying he was only a fallible man, and that E=mc x 2 probably never realy existed, even though it was written down, by men, in the pages of a book.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Houndog on Feb 27th, 2007 at 11:26pm
Here is a site that is very helpful for this discussion.
Listen to the commentary also. Its very good.

http://www.scripturessay.com/q420d.html

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Mar 6th, 2007 at 2:50am
I think I overlooked something. David was running towards Goliath while slinging the stone before Goliath could see what was happening. ?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Mar 6th, 2007 at 5:25am
In my version of the Bible it sounds like Goliath just saw David's staff. ("Why are you coming at me with a staff? Do you think I am a dog?").

The above link was a bit strange in my view. A sling and four stones to fight against a whole host on your own for a few moments? The only thing he could have done if the enemies attacked him was to run back to his own lines.

I guess the number five is probably not quite exact as the bible was written much later. But let's say it is correct. It would make sense as he would not be able to throw another stones anyway if he missed with five stones.

"By any earthy standard, the outcome of this battle would be "sure thing."" Err...yes, if Goliath didn't see the sling he was sure dead. But I guess the authors meant it the opposite way.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Mar 6th, 2007 at 2:27pm
Back then, it was fairly common for battles to be opened, and perhaps decided entirely, by a fight between champions.  Goliath had been out there every day for more than a month, challenging the Israelites to send him a champion to fight with.  I won't say they were too chicken, but certainly no one considered himself to have a chance against the Philistine giant.  Remember the terms of Goliath's challenge: "Choose you a man, and let him come down to me! If he prevail in fighting with me, and smite me, then will we become your servants -- but if I prevail over him, and smite him, then shall you become our servants, and serve us."  Both armies would be able to watch the contest, from their camps on opposite hills with a valley between; Goliath called his challenge each day from the valley, below his own people. If a Israelite accepted the challenge, and lost, it would be disastrous for his side, for they would be bound to serve the Philistines; and if they decided after the contest to fight, they would be at a distinct disadvantage, because the Philistines would be heartened by their champion's victory, and enraged by the dishonorable conduct of the Israelites.

The point is, David had no thought of fighting all the Philistines with five stones.  He needed only to kill Goliath.  If there was fighting after that, the whole army behind him would be involved.  With no armor and only a sling, David would be entirely justified in running back to his own lines, away from the Philistines; no one would expect an unarmored youth to stand up to an armored army.

I don't have any idea how heavy a stone David used, but it was sufficient to cave in Goliath's forehead.  He was dead or dying when David took his sword from him and cut off his head.  This was for the Philistine's benefit: it is one thing to see your champion fall, from where you stand watching on the hill; you might expect him to recover himself, get up, and slice the kid with the sling in half.  But when the kid holds up your champion's head, you know the fight is over.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by lobohunter on Mar 19th, 2007 at 10:20pm
My question Now is Five "flat stones" is this yet another thing about slinging I have yet to learn. but to me flat stone means odd und predictable flight pattern

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Mar 20th, 2007 at 6:41am
In my translation it just says "fünf glatte Kieselsteine" ("five smooth pebbles")

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by lobohunter on Mar 23rd, 2007 at 5:49pm
in light of this I now carry four stones in my non- firing hand and one in the pouch

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 27th, 2007 at 3:30pm
Well I'd have a pouch with as many good stones as I could cram into it and a handful besides.
Assuming the fight did actually take place - most of the details would be aprocyphal anyway.
It sounds much better to say he only had five stones.
That way it looks like he either had faith in his god to help him (what you are supposed to think) or he was a cocky little git who didn't think he'd need more than five stones.
:-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Mar 27th, 2007 at 6:46pm
;D Certainly his brothers thought he was a "cocky little git."  Consider, he comes out to the camp with some food for his brothers, and hears Goliath ranting down in the valley, asks what is going on, and is incensed that the army of Israel is too chicken to answer the challenge!  He says, "Who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?" -- and his eldest brother basically says, "Shut up and go tend the sheep, youngster!" and David replies, "What did I say? What did I say?"

David was not well liked by his brothers, I think.  Some months previously the prophet Samuel had come to his home, looking for the man who would be King over Israel after Saul.  Samuel had looked at all of Jesse's sons, and God said to him "Not this one."  Finally Samuel asked Jesse if he had any more sons, and Jesse said, "Well, my youngest is out tending the sheep."  When David was brought in from the field, Samuel anointed him with oil.  This anointing was an honor in their culture, and it probably rankled his brothers that David received this honor and they did not (in their culture, the oldest brother was normally held in the highest esteem, the youngest in lightest esteem).  So it is not surprising that his eldest brother snarled at him when he came out to where the army was camped.

I think, though, that what his brothers took as a cocky attitude, was really an attitude of faith that he would prevail.  God had brought his people through many trials, and He would bring them through this one.  They just needed someone to stand up and act on his faith in God.  Since no one else was doing that, David decided that he would.

LoboHunter, I also typically carry five stones around with me these days.  But unlike David, I would need all five in order to hit something!  Oh, well, David had probably been slinging for seven or eight times as long as I have been.

I am not sure whence came the idea that the stones were flat.  All the translations I have looked at, read "five smooth stones from the brook."  That would be nice, rounded rocks.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Mar 28th, 2007 at 5:44am
Maybe he just didn't find any more good stones in a haste? But I wouldn't trust a number in a story that was passed on by word of mouth for a long time.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 28th, 2007 at 8:08am
it has nothing to do with haste - if he'd been tending the sheep - a prime part of the job being to fend off predators - he'd be permanently armed for bear & wolf at all times.

If you're looking at this story as being true then you also have to factor in everyday life at the period in question. And who wrote down exactly what words were said ?
Nobody at the time - so any conversations are total hearsay :-)

I personally believe just about every story in the old testament is simply that - a story. Some may have historical basis. But you have to bear in mind that none of them were documented at the time - certainly not down to the level of individual conversations.
Everything in the bible was written much later by people who were not present at the events in question.
In some cases centuries later. So that which isn't made up is only loosely based on any kind of historical accuracy.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by loh_kah_hoe on Mar 31st, 2007 at 2:38am
I strongly agree with you, Funslinger! ;D Should be open-minded...

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Mar 31st, 2007 at 9:39am
:-)
Whether the existence of a god (and depending on your faith there are hundreds and hundreds of individual dieties - I see no reason to distuinguish between the validity of the hindu pantheon and the islamic/judean god (same dude) ) or not is irrelevant - the testaments were writen by people with human agendas.
And have been rewritten several thousand times by other humans with their own agendas.

Even if the first biblical historian was inspired by a god (a god not THE god) all the other copiers, translators and manuscript reproducers over the years were under nothing but human motivations.

My original statement still stands :-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on Mar 31st, 2007 at 5:12pm
As far as I read about comparisons between recent thora texts and the oldest samples found by archeologists there are remarkebly few deviations over a distance of littlemore than 2000 years. That is no evidence for the thesis that in earlier times the tradition of texts has been as precise as during the last 2000 years, but we should be carefull supposing masses of inacurate writers.

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by aussieslinger on Apr 1st, 2007 at 3:16am
Fellow Slingers,

Let's keep in mind that we are united by a common interest in slinging and allow for the fact that we may have widely divergent views on just about everything else.

I personally think that the story of David and Goliath is essentially true, especially given that there is nothing fantastic about it. What is there to disbelieve? A very competent slinger kills a man in battle; nothing miraculous about that. The only thing I find surprising is that none of the military types on both sides seemed to be aware of the sling's potential, which is the very reason why David had such an easy victory.

Check out the article in the "History" section by Ludwik Siedlecki and post your comments.


Aussieslinger

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 1st, 2007 at 8:36am

Quote:
but we should be careful supposing masses of inacurate writers.


It's not so much a question of inaccuracy - more of interpretation and the beleifs of the individual translators. Also different orders of monks (who did the vast majority of translations before the invention of printing) had different points of view and would have 'interpreted' the original texts accordingly.

Essentially I'm just talking about the sheer humanness of the reproducers having an effect over the centuries. Assuming the existence of a god that inspired the original documentation. it is unlikely that every single repition of the original was also so inspired.

People - particualrly people with strong beliefs, prefer things to appear in a way that suits their beliefs.
People are people - and darn few of us are saints (or would want to be  to be honest) :-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by slingbadger on Apr 1st, 2007 at 11:25am
I think that there is every possibly the story happened. However, as has been pointed out, all stories can be slanted.
 The big thing is that I think that the size of Goliath is wrong. 9 cubits and a span. A cubit is the length of your forearm, now regarded as 13 inches. A span is a handspan, 4 to 5 inches. That would mean that Goliath would have been at least 10 feet tall.
 Even Robert Wadlow Evans, the tallest man that ever lived, wasnt that tall. Plus, at that height, so many physical problems occur that the chances of Goliath actually fighting are slim. He may have been good for psychological effect, though.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 1st, 2007 at 11:48am

Quote:
Even Robert Wadlow Evans, the tallest man that ever lived


I think we ought to qualify that with:- the tallest man ON RECORD who ever lived.

There being approximately 20,000 years plus of organised humanity before such written records were even considered. Take for example the legends of irish and cornish giants - probably just stories - but possibly not. In fact every human culture has stories of giants, so over-large humans have been a feature of our species for quite some considerable time.

So when you look at the span of time that's been recorded reliably - approx 1500-2500 years and the span of time that has gone largely unrecorded - 20,000 plus years.
There is no way to be certain robert evans was it.
But I think it's fair to say that the mythical goliath (myth = unproven fact) was shorter than is written - for all the reasons I've previously given on human recording accuracy. After all the taller goliath the better david looks :-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Apr 1st, 2007 at 12:37pm
We should also remember that the cubit was defined using a living man as the standard of measure: it was the length of the King's forearm from tip of middle finger to elbow.  A cubit was not a precisely-defined length, especially over a period of time.  In general, if people were shorter, then the cubit also was shorter.  Thus it were actually more precise to say that Goliath was half again as tall as a normal man, than to assert that he was 9 3/4 feet tall.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Willeke on Apr 2nd, 2007 at 4:48am
For the people who are metric (like me) that would be 297,18 cm, or 2.9718 meter.
So nearly 3 meter.
While the record for the tallest man at this moment stands somewhere round 2.4 meter. (I do not know exactly but it is nowhere near 3 meter.)
Of course now they have found ways to stop the growt of people with extreme growt the extreme tall people are not as likely anymore.

Willeke

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Gunsonwheels on Apr 6th, 2007 at 3:58am
I can't help but thinking that Goliath, if he had any brains and experience at all, must have known he was in trouble as soon as he saw the type of warrior he faced... light, extremely mobile and in possession of a long range weapon David could run circles around Goliath until he took him down.  Korfmann seemed to have the same opinions in his 1973 Scientific American article The Sling As A Weapon.  Scriptural truths are only made known, according to those scriptures, my studying them and asking God if they are true.  I for one believe it all happened pretty much as described.  Before I discovered the power and accuracy of the sling I'm not so sure it really seemed plausible to me but after demonstrating them to myself it all seemed like a no-brainer.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 6th, 2007 at 12:45pm
If a lumbering oaf like myself, who slings for 5 minutes a week these days, can pull it off,  Then David could likely have executed a running front flip overhand in one shot! (who knows?....could happen!)


Oaf in action


No doubt, the story has many earmarks of authenticity.  After all, how else could a smallish kid, the youngest in his family, have made it all the way to the throne in a 'first born-centric' society, as is evidenced by archaeological record?


Such an event no doubt explains why he was thrust into the limelight (and why a jealous Saul wanted to kill him.)



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Tint on Apr 6th, 2007 at 9:11pm
That's one cool video, Techstuf!


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 6th, 2007 at 9:27pm

Thanks maybe I'll jump start my metabolism and produce a HOT one some day!


I sense a disturbance in the force....I perceive that Tint will astound us all rather soon....?....



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Tint on Apr 6th, 2007 at 9:33pm
Disturbance in the third side of the force?  It'll be a hot one for sure! ;)

Darth Tint

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by aussieslinger on Apr 7th, 2007 at 3:03am
Hi Tech Stuff and Tint,

Loved the video. You obviously went to a lot of trouble to make your plywood Goliath. Your style and the delicious swish of yor sling intrigue me. Do you always shoot like that? I am always astounded by how many different ways this simple weapon can be used.

I also have no doubt the story of David and Goliath is accurate, not only because of my personal faith, but because there is nothing in the story which is at all unbelievable. It has no great "miracles" or extraordinary phenomena, just a highly skilled slinger killing another man with a sling, a feat which has been done both before and after perhaps millions of times during human history. There are many of us on the forum who would be able to sling with sufficient power to do the job. BUT consistent accuracy especially under stress of battle is another matter. It's one thing to shoot at a stationary target, quite another to hit a giant who is moving quickly towards you and screaming that he is going to cut you to shreds. What I think is amazing is that David had the faith and courage, dare I say arrogance, to face so formidable a foe.

All the characters in the story show normal human weaknesses. David's older brothers are angry at their interfering little brat of a brother, Saul anguishes over a hopeless situation, the unconquerable Goliath obviously enjoys the adulation of his own men and the fear he inspires in the Israelites; he basks in the limelight for a whole month! Even David's motives are hardly entirely altruistic. He's going to be famous, marry into the king's family and get tax relief for his family. If the writer was interested in fabricating a fantastic story about God's favourite, he surely would have painted him with rosier colours.

The only thing that I find amazing about the whole thing is that Goliath exposed himself so completely to David's attack. The only conclusion I can come to is that he, and perhaps all military men of the time, were unaware of the sling's potential as a weapon.

Title: video rocks
Post by Mordechaj on Apr 7th, 2007 at 7:38am
does anybody knows how to download you tube videos?

i'd really like to have tint's slinging pro and TS's goliath on my hard drive.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 7th, 2007 at 2:15pm

Quote:
Even David's motives are hardly entirely altruistic.



Who's to say for sure.....put yourself in David's shoes.  He trusts that Yahweh will help him fight a loud mouthed oppressor who insults his nation and his God.  I doubt that David needed any more incentive than that.....and I say he probably felt guilty for taking as long as he did, to ice the giant.  I think it's fair to say that the 'hardly entirely altruistic part' reared its ugly head after fame was thrust upon him.



Quote:
Loved the video. You obviously went to a lot of trouble to make your plywood Goliath. Your style and the delicious swish of yor sling intrigue me. Do you always shoot like that?



Thanks.....yes, I guess my swish IS delicious, now that I view the video more closely!  (totally kidding)


Ok, 98% kidding.


This Goliath is hardly my first,  I've used various versions of him over the years.  This is the first 'full color' production, however, and was originally produced to attract attention to our booth at an outdoor festival last year.  I've found that, for me personally, any rotation beyond that which is necessary to put the stone out at an adequate velocity seems to distract me at times.  However, I've no doubt that Yurek, with his multi-windup would split a plywood noggin, no problem!  I use several other styles depending on circumstance, but what is shown has been my mainstay for decades.  

When and if the time is right, perhaps a handful of us are prepared to take the next logical step in the, as yet uncompleted, journey of the sling.  There is much space left for the sling to grow.....time of course, may be another matter entirely.


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 7th, 2007 at 2:18pm


Morde,


Try Keepvid.com, it should work


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Guap on Apr 7th, 2007 at 6:16pm
Watch Digging for the Truth.  The subject really has nothing to do with whether you are Christian or not.  David was a Jew.  The "Legendary" story is recorded in the Tora (Jewish Bible) and the Christian Testaments.  Whether or not it's true is a matter of personal preference.  It's a neat story either way.

Certainly, Goliath was an anomoly at 9 and one half feet tall, but it is explainable.  Certainly the Sling is a very old weapon and who better could use it than a shepard.  So both issues are believable to me.  But it has nothing to do with your religion and not all Christians, Jews or Muslims believe everything they read...and that's a fact.

I would take it for what it is.  A very interesting, possibly true story.  I can tell you one thing for sure.  It doesn't matter whether Goliath was 9 feet tall or only seven.  If you hit him between the eyes with a good rock he's probably going to die.

Da Guap

Title: Re: video rocks
Post by Tint on Apr 7th, 2007 at 9:30pm

Mordechaj wrote on Apr 7th, 2007 at 7:38am:
does anybody knows how to download you tube videos?

i'd really like to have tint's slinging pro and TS's goliath on my hard drive.


What an honor!   :D

I'll send you a DVD if you pm me your address!

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by don1 on Apr 9th, 2007 at 9:50am
In comparison with a modern soldier: Who, btw, carries a BASIC load of ammo. of x rounds.

so too...

David: a lone, slinger/shepard/pimple-faced, teenager, carrying a "basic load" for the job ahead of him--5 projectiles.  As he and his adversary approached each other to within, sure-fire, killing distance, who knows, perhaps when the inspiration or  bravado or national pride or religious ferver of the moment pushed him forward into battle, while all the others stood back and threw curses at each other, he only had time to grab what he in the time allowed, selected the best ammo locally available.  But, in his case, as cronicled, only needed one stone, the fateful, lucky, and some would say G_d directed shot.

The story has credence due to the extreme frailty of the human body...beside, even if the stone merely knocked the big guy unconscious, what really did him in is when the jewish kid cleaved his head from his body.  Army axiom:  Kill the head and the body will die.

I choose to be an atheist in the last stages of my life as I earlier pondered why so many wars were and still are fought in his name.  Rediculous and wasteful.




Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 10th, 2007 at 6:24am
It's not the actual possibility of the event I disbelieve - it's the sheer detail that makes it unbelievable.

Who counted the stones ? Who wrote it all down as it happened ?

History tends to be ambiguous - stories have detail.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by don1 on Apr 10th, 2007 at 8:44am
Oh, I agree, C_A.  That story is about 3000 year old, give or take ... easily embellished, and for all we know, young David may have been one of many slingers on the Hebrew's side, all of them chucking rocks, and as luck would have it, Davey hits the jackpot, so naturally he's hoisted onto their shoulders and becomes the hero of the moment, like any football forward kicking that crucial goal during the world-cup.  Because of his success, his side wins by default, and he instantly turns into a politician.  <zap> or is it <shazam!>  Yeah, make it shazam, because, zap sounds too much like a mosquito zapper.   :o

cheers,

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Apr 10th, 2007 at 10:26am
Could an array of slingers defeat a champion? I'd think that as soon as Goliath notices many people attacking him he would withdraw behind his own lines. I don't know how battles used to run but I guess the only reason he didn't take cover was because only a single person approached him.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by don1 on Apr 10th, 2007 at 2:54pm
Exactly, Dravonk.  All we have is the bible.  No other historic or military journal exists for corroboration which would tell us the length and depth of the battle line, or how or where the various troops were disposed upon that battle line.  Or how many troops were participating...how many had spears or swords or slings.  The fog of war in those times was indeed alot foggyer, a mix-mash of ideas.  We each have solutions and plausibility in our own minds-eye of how it went down.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Apr 10th, 2007 at 7:45pm
Hmmm ... good questions, everybody!  So, do we have some historical accounts besides the Bible, that describe a battle that was decided by a contest between champions (or where the battle was opened by such a contest)?  I must admit I have always taken the account of this fight as fairly accurate.  My understanding is that these books (Samuel, Kings, the Chronicles) were penned by writers contemporary with the kings described -- but others claim that they had to have been written centuries later (why? -- it occurs to me that no one has ever backed up that claim, that I have read -- but somebody has to have thought about it and at least looked for evidence).  In fact, I am realizing that I am sorely lacking in hard evidence, on BOTH sides!  Something like this should be decidable by means other than "My faith is stronger than your faith" (bearing in mind that both theism and atheism are faiths, as neither has certain knowledge yet).

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Apr 11th, 2007 at 3:06pm
As regards the "believability" of ancient written sources, it has gone both ways.  Nonsense has been accepted as fact.  Fact has been dismissed as nonsense.  It has more to do with the prejudices (in a strict sense of that word) of the reader, than with the veracity of the writings.

As an example, some Greek writer mentioned a marvelous mechanical device  built by, I think, Poseidonius.  This used to be dismissed as nonsense, because it was common knowledge that the Greeks were good at philosophy, but had no mechanical aptitude whatsoever (and in fact, regarded actually doing an experiment as something that no good Greek would stoop to).  Then some sponge divers discovered a wreck near the island of Antikythera, wherein was found the remains of a  marvelous device.  The device has been studied and partially reconstructed, and it is a clockwork simulation of the solar system.  It is something that any modern clockmaker would take pride in, and it (along with some other discoveries) completely upset our prejudices concerning the ancient Greeks.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by don1 on Apr 12th, 2007 at 8:26am

Quote:
That would be like a person sitting outside the courtroom reading the stenogropher's notes from a trial and then imagining some other "way it went down" in their own mind.


Not quite, Dan, but close.  What I was referring to was when you read a best-seller, that later is made into a movie.  What is usually seen up on the silver-screen is often times far different than what our imaginations have rendered.  Whereas, in the court stenographer's copy--which is supposed to be verbatim and fresh, compared to "scripture" whose sourses are dubious and parsed via the concil of Nicea.  

For me and those of my persuation, consider the bible as nothing more than a "best-seller", no offense intended, just stating a position or point of view. :)


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by don1 on Apr 12th, 2007 at 1:47pm
...I guess we all got OT, as these last 7 pages lend testimony...

the original question: Is that story a real event? ???

:-/

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Apr 12th, 2007 at 4:29pm

don1 wrote on Apr 12th, 2007 at 1:47pm:
...I guess we all got OT, as these last 7 pages lend testimony...

the original question: Is that story a real event? ???

I don't think we went off-topic (except for the hell part). We said that such an event could have happend, but whether it happend just as it was described in the bible, no one can tell for sure. So now people are discussing on how credible and exact the bible is.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by don1 on Apr 13th, 2007 at 9:14am
Oh!

Now I get it.  Two subjects under one topic. ;D

Ok.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 13th, 2007 at 5:01pm

Topics evolve, that's a fact of life.  All of us exhibit varying degrees of lattitude for what a topic should or shouldn't include.

Besides, It hardly seems adequate to discuss this singular biblical event without benefit of context, seeking to determine both more about the beliefs of those who recorded it, and the book in which it is contained.



Quote:
It's not the actual possibility of the event I disbelieve - it's the sheer detail that makes it unbelievable.



Sheer detail, of itself, in no way implies deceit or embellishment.  


On the contrary, various detailed records have served throughout history to corroborate unbiased and independent discovery.  Since the dawn of man, groups, tribes and nations have kept records in a multitude of ways, with varying degrees of accuracy.  

It's not hard to spot those individual record keepers whose talent shows either a well polished skill at intentional misrepresentation, (diametrically opposed to the tenets of the book to which their particular work is added) or their devotion to maintaining accuracy.  The bible is unique in it's openness....the individual writers revealing many an embarrassing or downright horrible action on the part of one or more of their own.  Bible writers, for whom adding or taking away from true events has long been considered a most actionable offense, were laying it all out there during a time (then as always) when it was customary for lesser men to practice 'revisionist history', recording losses as victories, Changing names, dates, etc.

No, I think that if the David & Goliath account were truly embellished,  Goliath would by now be recorded as 50 ft high and having one large eye in the middle of his forehead....like the undeniable myths of other cultures, who more highly valued such obvious fantasies.  Lesser scribes would have David recorded as picking only one smooth stone.....His faith having been so perfect, knowing he needed only one stone, he would have felt guilty for picking up the other four and would have dramatically pulled them out of his shepherd's bag upon facing the giant and shouted,  "See that I have 5 stones by which to feed the birds today!"  "Well.....I only need ONE!"   He then would have thrown the other 4 at once to the side and promptly put the Cyclops' eye out with the magic stone!

The Israelites would then have mounted to the skies on their trusty 'Vimana' powered by 'Bagdad batteries' and rained down nuclear death darts on the Philistines causing Atlas to sneeze and drop the world from off his shoulders, initiating the separation of Pangea.

Rumor has it that after the battle, David, deeming that single magic stone to be very dangerous, should it fall into the wrong hands, slung it far, far out into the ocean....and it landed somewhere near the center of what today is known as the Bermuda Triangle!




All in all, I would say to any assertions to the contrary, that there is much, much more to both past history and future prophecy as recorded in the Bible, than meets the eye....from quizzical glance to prejudicial skimming!


Perhaps one of the paramount reasons the Good Book does not enjoy wider appreciation, is the fact that the ending's been given away quite thoroughly.....and it's not the preferred ending in many an ancient and modern fairytale alike.


It's characters don't all live happily ever after.



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by bigkahuna on Apr 13th, 2007 at 10:40pm
Or do they?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by jml11220 on Apr 14th, 2007 at 2:41am

loh_kah_hoe wrote on Jul 14th, 2006 at 7:41am:
Is that story a real event? ???


Something that I have heard, and I think might be worthy of consideration here, is the idea of a compound story.  It might be more difficult with David since he allegedly rose to royalty, but if you take the idea of Achillies and think this through, it might work out.

Let's say that at the siege of Troy there were 10 notable warriors named Achillies.  A spearman sees Achilies 1.0 charge into a group of trojans and slay 20 while escaping unharmed.  he presses on the fight, and when Achillies 1.0 bites it in a arrow volley the spearman doesn't see it.  The next day he hears of a man who jumped over a 20 foot wall (or was thrown by a catapult...whatever) and defeats a general in single combat (or lands on him...whatever).  he doesn't know this is Achillies 2.0, so he combines the stories into one man.  This could continue as long as you had notable warriors with the same, or similar names.  This could happen with David as well.

As far as Goliath being 9 1/2 feet tall, just remember if you only heard stories about Babe Ruth, but never saw a picture of him, you wouldn't picture a short man with a beer gut and floppy jowels.  History is pop culture.    

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 14th, 2007 at 3:24am


Quote:
History is pop culture



To those who don't take their jobs seriously, yes.....I suppose it is!  To be on the safe side, I'd pay attention....at the end of the test there will be a pop quiz.


8-)


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by bigkahuna on Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:06am
Don't worry, it will be graded on a curve.    And..... you get a chance to review your answers afterward. You can also get extra credit.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 17th, 2007 at 2:25am
Many doubt the David & Goliath account solely for lack of hard evidence, which is certainly understandable.  However, the book in which it is contained has had benefit of compelling evidentiary support over time.  The periodical, BAR (Biblical Archaeology Review) has, itself highlighted many finds corroborating the accuracy of the texts.

One account in particular, is much more miraculous than the victory granted David over Goliath.  It is the story of the Exodus, or the Red Sea crossing.  


Red Sea Crossing


God bless,



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 17th, 2007 at 5:04pm
yeah but it's mostly a matter of faith. Not proof :-)

I'm actually much more impressed with the fact that the 3 feet of mud that composes most river beds was made walkable than that a freak tide caused a ford where one did not usually exist.

Being a pragmatist, I have a lot of trouble with stuff that just leaves the nitty gritty details out - like pretty much the entire old testament :-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 17th, 2007 at 5:29pm

Spoken like one who has never read the OT!   ::)

'Nitty Gritty' details abound.....



8-)


TS


P.S.  I 'believe' that one day it will be conclusively proven that those who live solely within the confines of 'proofs', like mathematicians and scientists.....never really 'lived' at all.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by jml11220 on Apr 18th, 2007 at 4:35pm
"Faith" by it's very definition can not have scientific proof.  If something is proven your belief in it is irrelevant...it's simply the truth.  For something to be an element of faith it has to be improbable or impossible without supernatural intervention.  

If you take the David and Goliath story on faith, then my quest for scientific fact is irrelevant because for you it's part of your belief in a higher power.  I believe the vein of the question though was to find out if there was hard scientific fact (i.e archaeological, or verifiable documentation) giving truth to the story.  For that there is nothing definite.  There have been some interesting leads, but they have yet to be verified.  

I must say though TS...you're wrong about those of us who seek empirical data as a basis of our belief.  I do live a rich full life, and it is made even more full by the thought that this is it.  I savor each and every moment, and live it to the fullest.  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 18th, 2007 at 5:48pm

Quote:
I must say though TS...you're wrong about those of us who seek empirical data as a basis of our belief.  I do live a rich full life, and it is made even more full by the thought that this is it.  I savor each and every moment, and live it to the fullest.



I said nothing about a 'basis of'.  


What I said was "solely within the confines of".


It shouldn't take much seeking of empirical data to differentiate the difference between the two.



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Apr 18th, 2007 at 5:49pm
jml11220,
     What you say is not strictly true.  It is true that faith and proof are mutually exclusive, but one can have faith in something about which proof is available.  One's faith is not directly in the matter at hand, but in the truthfulness and thoroughness of those whose proofs one has not worked through and verified for oneself.  Everyone lives by faith in SOMETHING, because no one has time enough to work through all proofs of everything.  I have faith in the fact that any waveform can be decomposed into the sum of a set of sine waves of varying frequencies, because I have faith in the mathematical work of Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier. If I took time to reproduce his work, and proved the matter for myself, then faith would no longer be necessary for me concerning that matter.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by jml11220 on Apr 18th, 2007 at 11:28pm
But in true scientific form the work of Mr Fourier has been verified by peer review.  His work has stood up to the empirical method by being reproduced in independent study.  You don't have to do it again, although you very well could if you chose to.  

TS, My problem with your statement is that it's treading on the shaky ground of circular argument.  You're  starting to say that the Old Testament has many facts that are verifiable by reading the Old Testament.  If you believe the stories of the Bible on faith, I have nothing to touch you with.  As soon as you try to say your faith stands up to scientific scrutiny, then there are simply methods that must be used to verify it's truth.  Any time a biblical story is subject to outside scientific peer review, it doesn't hold up.  That's good because it keeps it a matter of faith, and keeps the divine entity in charge of things...but that's faith and not science.  


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 19th, 2007 at 12:47am


Quote:
TS, My problem with your statement is that it's treading on the shaky ground of circular argument.  You're  starting to say that the Old Testament has many facts that are verifiable by reading the Old Testament.


Dude, if your empirical method is as challenged as your reading comprehension appears to be.....then anything I might be persuaded to discuss with you is moot.

What I have said, and I didn't stutter, is that various details in the OT have been corroborated by archaeological findings.  

I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your interest in this topic.  You obviously won't find anything of value to support your methodology, nor will you persuade we who are accustomed to taking the word of a source we deem to be quite coherent and reliable.



Quote:
Any time a biblical story is subject to outside scientific peer review, it doesn't hold up.



Your rather naive blanket statement is categorically untrue.  You seem to have difficulty holding to your own advertised methods.....And I would add that although we can hardly blame these 'outside peers' of yours for missing the bigger picture, their condition does not require us to crop ours to fit their frame of reference.


Some of life's greatest challenges are well navigated upon a preponderance of evidence.  The rewards sweeter than many, unfortunately, will ever permit themselves to know.


Some of the most arrogant and assumptive people I've ever met, are scientists and preachers.  Somewhere in between are the rest of us....who simply understand the value of still believing in a higher power than ourselves.


Did David defeat Goliath just as recorded in the Holy Bible?  As demonstrated, he certainly could have.  And I will go so far as to say that I wouldn't be surprised at all if the whole thing wasn't captured on video, and stored in someone's archive.  I for one look forward to the chance to peer at it again and again. And review it to heart's content!



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Apr 19th, 2007 at 1:57am
Peer review?  Oh, OK, then my faith is in Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier and in his peers who reviewed his work and assured the rest of us that it is correct.  I still do not KNOW that his work is correct, because I have not done the proofs myself; I only have FAITH that his work is correct and his peers reviewed it correctly.

My point is, you CANNOT ever get away from taking some things on faith.  You may not realize it, in any given situation, but it is so nevertheless.

TS,
"... peer at it ... review it ..."?  That's bad!

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 19th, 2007 at 2:34am


Quote:
TS,
"... peer at it ... review it ..."?  That's bad!



Dale, you still hold the record, my friend.


You're the only one I know who could actually pull off using the word 'pundit' as a verb.


Buddum bum.  


(zinger alert)


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Apr 19th, 2007 at 2:57am

Quote:
...the Old Testament has many facts that are verifiable by reading the Old Testament.


I cannot resist commenting on this one!  Jml11220, you do have a good point here.  But it's not rock solid.  The Old Testament is not a single work of a single person (if it were, then your point WOULD be rock solid).  It is the work of a number of men (and women) recording their experiences.  To claim that the Bible (the whole thing, or just the Old Testament) cannot be used to validate itself, is like claiming that the Encyclopedia Britannica cannot be used to validate itself.  Like the Bible, the Encyclopedia is a single work, but it was written by many different people each with their own education, background, and experiences.

On the other hand, my faith is that all those people wrote as they were inspired by God, so that makes the Bible essentially the work of one Person.

On the other, other hand, that Person has (by definition) complete veracity, so parts of His work can safely be used to validate other parts of His work.

Oy.  It gets complicated.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Apr 19th, 2007 at 11:22am

Good point Dale.....an Encyclopedia, like the Bible, is not a single work.  Yet is trusted by many to support itself.


It would be downright Monty Pythonian to see groups of scientists in courts of law 'peer reviewing' to ascertain the validity of the testimony.


The fact is, at a time when many superstitious peoples literally believed the Earth sat on the back of Atlas, or Elephants and a turtle, The Bible announced the truth.  And wherever the Bible touches on the physical sciences, it shows itself to be quite ahead of it's 'time', so to speak.


Just a few bible facts.



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Houndog on May 3rd, 2007 at 6:53pm
I had a nice heated argument with my friend today during art class at school...
First off, He's an Atheist and I'm Christian, so we are always having some "good" arguments.
This one of course had to do with the power of the sling and David and Goliath.
He understands the story of David and Goliath and i have filled him in on the points made in the Bible (aka Goliath wasnt the average guy he was 9-10feet tall, and he was covered in armor that a rock could not penetrate) but i pointed out that he had one open area on his forehead where his helmet did not reach, and that was the one spot that David hit and killed the Giant.
Later that day during lunch he brought up the idea that a stone hitting someone in the head wouldn't kill him (of course the stone may not have killed Goliath so that is why David used the sword on him...hehe) anyway, the prob was that he has a mindset that he is an immortal god in himself and nothing can kill him, so he claims that if a stone were to hit him in the forehead (or even anyone for that matter) that he would simply say ow and walk away leaving a bruise on his head.  He couldn't admit that a rock could actually penetrate the human skull which is exactly what it can do!
Makes me wanna take him out and sling stones at him until he believes the true power of the sling.    :P  ;D

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on May 3rd, 2007 at 10:21pm


Quote:
Makes me wanna take him out and sling stones at him until he believes the true power of the sling.



How a person deals with one who believes differently than himself, is a true indicator of the worth and stability of his character.  We can all certainly 'feel' as you did that day!  Or we can be like the G.W.s of this world and let the 'missiles' fly.  There are practicing Christians, and then there are infiltrators possessed by Christ's enemy, who work up a name for themselves apparently in order to do as much damage to Christ's name as they are able.    


For what it's worth, I'm glad you didn't 'stone' him.  His name wouldn't happen to be 'Stephen' would it?


(insert Rod Serling theme here)


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on May 4th, 2007 at 2:33am

Quote:
... he brought up the idea that a stone hitting someone in the head wouldn't kill him (of course the stone may not have killed Goliath so that is why David used the sword on him...
I believe I already dealt with this, a year or two ago, but I'll repeat it anyway.

It is recorded that the stone sank into Goliath's forehead (1 Samuel, 17:49). This means that it shattered his skull and contused and tore his brain.  He was dying as he fell to the ground (though, depending on the extent of brain damage, he could perhaps have continued breathing for several hours more -- the parts of the brain controlling the basic body functions are located more toward the back of the skull, and were less likely to be damaged immediately).

But, it is not enough in such contests to put your opponent down.  The other Philistine soldiers may have expected Goliath to get back up and take David apart limb by limb.  But when David took Goliath's head off and held it up for all to see, there was no doubt of the outcome of this contest.

One might also consider the thickness and strength of the skull, compared with the thickness and strength of three-quarter inch plywood ... I believe we have videos and photos of stones partly and completely through such plywood.

In short, your friend is ignorant; educate him.  Go find some of those photos, or TechStuf's video of hitting the plywood Goliath.  They are convincing (because real!).

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Houndog on May 5th, 2007 at 12:27pm
Hehe no I didnt go out and stone him.  Never would.  There were basically 2 sides to the argument and Goliath was the central conflict.
1. He doesnt believe in the power of the sling. So i wanted to "educate" him.
2. He doesnt believe that anything in this world can hurt him. (hes a big guy...) let alone a stone or God.  

So in fact he got more mad when i brought up the Biblical scriptures and God so he yelled and stalked off...kinda funny.  Hes a great guy but he just has his "head in the wrong place"

Sorry i turned this 'Goliath' discussion into a very different discussion... (couldn't think of a name)

TS.  Nope his name isn't Stephen.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on May 5th, 2007 at 1:17pm


Quote:
Sorry i turned this 'Goliath' discussion into a very different discussion...



Don't be.  I can hardly imagine comments that are more relevant to this discussion....


Perhaps sharing this information with your friend will help him understand that not all historical accounts contained in the Bible, remain unsubstantiated.  Indeed, enough to warrant careful consideration of those portions that require true faith, based upon accurate knowledge.


Stones, like words, hold a fruitful amount of symbolism.....so much so, that sometimes it's easy to escape the cold, hard truth of them.  And whether they be cast at the 'Goliaths' or 'Stephens' of this world, where they land can far surpass the initial intent of their 'slingers'.


That much, I know all too well.


TS


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Houndog on May 6th, 2007 at 5:26pm
That's some very cool info!  
Ya, what you say is very true.  The wording you used makes you sound like a philosopher...hehe. :D

Thx for the info, now i have some more (better) stuff to "sling" at him!  ;)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on May 6th, 2007 at 10:20pm


Quote:
The wording you used makes you sound like a philosopher...hehe



Which reminds me, did you hear the one about the Zen monk who ordered a hot dog?


He wanted to get one with everything.


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on May 7th, 2007 at 6:18am
hi - i've just read this topic, it's very interesting.

since goliath would be well aware of the deadliness of the sling, i think david carried a staff as camouflage, and hid the sling until goliath was within range.  goliath mentions the staff in the account in a mocking fashion, but a quarterstaff is (and presumably was) a weapon which was able to defend against swords. there is a historic account from the spanish armada of an english prisoner who was forced to fight 6 spaniard sword fencers at once, and he won!

also, the number of stones being 5 COULD be accounted by the speed of reloading and the distance, with the speed of goliath running towards david as the factor - david thought that he would have time for 5 shots by which time goliath would have either died or attacked david and killed him.

however, this explanation seems a bit off, in view of the fact that Techstuf has convincingly demonstrated accuracy and power against a plywood giant, which seemed to be right up against his house - if Techstuf has the skill to avoid expensive damage to his house by hitting a small target, it's safe to assume that david, a shepherd who has used a sling as an everyday tool and weapon since early childhood, would be a better marksman than any of us

in conclusion, i would guess that david was as skilled as those benjamites who could "sling a stone at a hair's breadth and never miss" and that his collection of 5 stones is the earliest record of someone having a lucky number!

NB after spending the guts of 20 years studying religions, Christianity, the Bible, accounts of evolution, geology, radiometry etc etc i've come to the sad but inescapable conclusion that the Bible is a flawed man-made document (the books to be in the NT were decided by committee, for instance, and there is clear and undeniable proof of our animal origins as evolved species) and that it is impossible to determine the existence or otherwise of God.  
faith is worthless as proof - when that exact mindset is exhibited by someone of another religion, it's called "lack of critical thinking!"

oh and by the way what an annoying habit (i'm a grumpy old man) of people who write G-d for God - didn't JC say to fall God "father" in defiance of the holier-than-thous?  even i know what the Lord was getting at and i don't even believe in the divinity of Christ  - or is it Chr-st?  


SV  
 



 

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on May 7th, 2007 at 2:43pm
I was just reviewing this topic (actually I was looking for the link to TechStuf's plywood Goliath video), and I came across something that just cries out for a reaction:

Guap wrote on Apr 7th, 2007 at 6:16pm:
... Whether or not it's true is a matter of personal preference.


So I am reacting.  I am going to draw attention to a particular belief about truth, by making a series of statements.  Read them, and gauge your own reaction.  What will be interesting, is which statement you are at when you decide "That is asinine, it's either true or it's false!"

OK, here goes:
  • Whether or not David killed Goliath, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not the Bible is true, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Jesus of Nazareth actually lived, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Socrates of Athens actually lived, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Napoloeon Bonaparte actually lived, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Stephen Hawking actually lived, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not Stephen Hawking actually knows anything about mathematics, is a matter of personal preference.
  • Whether or not two plus two is equal to four, is a matter of personal preference.

Now: where did you finally draw the line?  And why?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on May 7th, 2007 at 3:46pm
Sv,

TechStuf had the plywood giant leaning against a rock wall, looks like, when he shot it; the later close-up views were taken after he had moved it back to his garage.  Fooled me, too; I had actually written something about his phenomenal accuracy and confidence, and on impulse I viewed the video again, and was forced to erase what I wrote.  The accuracy is still phenomenal; the confidence, depends on whether TS knew if there was anything breakable on the other side of that wall.

You have an interesting point about spelling "God" with a hyphen instead of an "O".  Is it that such a one wishes to refer to God but does not wish to offend?  Foolishness.

D-le

P.S. -- On a related topic: What did Jesus think he was about, that day in the temple, when he said "Before Abraham was, I AM"?  The word he used was the same that God used, when Moses asked "When Pharoah asks who sent me to him, who shall I say?" -- and God answered "I AM WHO I AM.  Tell him that I AM has sent you."  Of course they tried to stone him!  Jesus had just told them, "I am God."  Anyway, I believe that I AM is usually written as "the tetragrammaton" which is usually transliterated into English as YHWH or "Yahweh".

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on May 8th, 2007 at 6:13am

Quote:
The accuracy is still phenomenal


he not only talks bollocks, he can shoot too

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by aussieslinger on May 8th, 2007 at 7:01am

sv wrote on May 7th, 2007 at 6:18am:
since goliath would be well aware of the deadliness of the sling, i think david carried a staff as camouflage, and hid the sling until goliath was within range.  SV  
 
 


Hi SV,

I too have been intrigued by the fact that the sling doesn't get a mention at all in the preliminaries to the battle, not until David selects the five stones from the creek. Even when David is convincing Saul to let him go to fight he never mentions it. Do you think that Goliath and the military men of the time did not consider the sling a viable weapon?

Houndog,

If your friend is truly interested, show him TechStuf's video. That demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that it could be done. But I think the only way your friend will admit it is to have him tied up to that board with TechStuf in front of him sling in hand. You can't convince anyone against his will, it's a matter of faith; arguments about religion are a singular waste of time.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on May 8th, 2007 at 7:11am
hi aussieslinger


Quote:
Do you think that Goliath and the military men of the time did not consider the sling a viable weapon?


yes, that's a possibility - like poison gas today, or crossbows in the middle ages. maybe it was ignoble to want to attack an enemy without personal risk.
i wouldn't think that the philistines thought of the sling as being feeble because it clearly isn't - maybe the soldiery of the day, intent on proving themselves in hand-to-hand combat, just didn't think it was a "sporting" way to fight

SV      

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on May 8th, 2007 at 7:19am

Quote:
arguments about religion are a singular waste of time.


the people who are doing the arguing will hone their ideas and become more entrenched and defensive. people tend to select a view for or against, and only then do they look for evidence to prove themselves right.

the only viable and logical stance is agnosticism. even if you went back in time to see Jesus Christ himself, you would still have to take his claims on faith  - is he talking to God, or is he not? was he really dead when placed in the tomb, or only in a coma? what you eventually decide is NOT based on evidence

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Gunsonwheels on May 9th, 2007 at 12:05am
Jeepers... and I took Him at his word to ask by simple prayer.  I don't believe he ever asked folks, let alone expected them to take him at his word.  He told Peter when he responded He (Jesus) was the Christ, the son of the living God, that flesh and blood had not revealed that knowledge to him but his Father which was in heaven...  I don't think God backed up the knowledge truck and dumped that on Peter without his first asking through simple prayer... but most people don't believe God both hears and answers prayers... Right???  ... and if we believe something then THAT is our reality...

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Houndog on May 9th, 2007 at 12:51am
I must point out that if Jesus was only in a coma that he wouldn't have been able to move the HUGE stone that the romans put over his grave opening. Let alone get past the guards that were posted.
Totally off the subject of Goliath but a good discussion anyway.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on May 10th, 2007 at 6:18am
hi Funslinger

you are right, corroboration is the key. however, it is impossible for an account to verify itself. the only account of the water and blood wound is in the Bible itself, which we "know" to be true because it's the word of God.
by the same reasoning, the account of Mohammed's ascent into heaven astride a winged horse must also be true, since the Koran is (it says!) the word of God - like the Bible, the only verification for it's divine origin is what we read in it - what it says about itself.
so IF Jesus was dead (as proved by the spear) and came back to life then what the Bible says is true. But if it isn't true, and was written years after the event after legends had started to spring up, how would we know?
as i said earlier, we choose for or against a religion, depending on our innate characters, then review the evidence from a for-or-against standpoint.

"why has no-one seen Julius Caesar, who lived 2000 years ago?"

- because he's dead

"why has no-one seen Jesus Christ, who lived 2000 years ago?

- because he's alive but we can't see him?  errrm, is there a problem here??


i'll stick with "not proven"    

SV    

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Houndog on May 14th, 2007 at 1:28am
Hey all!
I took my friend slinging the other day! (this is the friend that doesn't believe in the power of the sling)
He Loved it!  He wasnt that great but he had a good time and said "I can see how this can be fun" (as he slung another stone)
I also showed him TechStuf's Goliath video, and he is now leaning toward the fact that a sling Can kill someone!
Making progress! :D

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on May 14th, 2007 at 2:24am


Quote:
I also showed him TechStuf's Goliath video, and he is now leaning toward the fact that a sling Can kill someone! Making progress!


I don't know as I'd call 'leaning toward the fact that a sling can kill someone', progress.  If your testimony to him about Christ's wisdom and sacrifice do not give life to what is inscribed upon his heart, then the example of David's bravery in the face of his oppressor will be hard pressed to increase his understanding.  I sincerely hope that your friend comes to understand the comparatively small place such example holds in light of the many greater truths contained in the Holy Scriptures.

Afterall, anyone can take a life with a choice of myriad weapons.....though how many can return life to the dead and dying?  


At any rate, Blessings be upon you and your friend, in Yahshua, Jesus Christ


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by aussieslinger on May 18th, 2007 at 3:57am

Conteilboos wrote on May 14th, 2007 at 1:28am:
Hey all!
I took my friend slinging the other day! (this is the friend that doesn't believe in the power of the sling)
He Loved it!  He wasnt that great but he had a good time and said "I can see how this can be fun" (as he slung another stone)
I also showed him TechStuf's Goliath video, and he is now leaning toward the fact that a sling Can kill someone!
Making progress! :D


"Leaning Toward!!!!?????" Who doesn't lean toward the notion that having a 4 oz. rock imbedded in your skull will materially shorten your life expectancy. But as you say at least it's some sort of progress.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on May 20th, 2007 at 4:39pm
Today people tend to underestimate the sling because they are used to weapons of - more or less - mass destruction (machine guns, missiles, bombs etc.) making them think that a weapon that doesn't kill 10 at once isn't lethal at all.

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on May 20th, 2007 at 10:36pm

Quote:
they are used to weapons of - more or less - mass destruction



Which are brought to you by your 'friendly' neighborhood beast and it's little horn.  (The co-opted world power structure and the antiChrist power base of Israel, who controls it and much of the world's governments).

While our men willingly fight and die to defend Ideologies like the following:


http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

http://www.cephasministry.com/masonry_testimony_1.html

http://straitwaytruth.com/artman/publish/article_109.shtml


Both serve the Devil and are in control of much of the world.....the entertainment industry, virtually entirely controlled by them, helps them keep the minds of many distracted from seeing the light of truth.


Christ returns soon enough, with a long sword.  The only true and righteous weapon of mass destruction ever wielded.  Though many will and are, giving up the faith, saying:  "My master is delaying".


Rev-19:11-16


God bless us all,


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by bigkahuna on May 21st, 2007 at 1:38am
Just one question TS. Where do you find the time to look up all this stuff?????Almost every time you post you have two or three new sites up for investigation.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on May 22nd, 2007 at 8:06am
This should make for a good read to those who feel so inclined or the ones that believe the bible counts for naught http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htm

In short, there is more supportive ancient documents for the bible than any other ancient texts, yet no one questions the validity of any of them. Please go see for youself.


Posted by: TechStuf Posted on: May 20th, 2007, 10:36pm


Quote:
Christ returns soon enough, with a long sword.  The only true and righteous weapon of mass destruction ever wielded.  Though many will and are, giving up the faith, saying:  "My master is delaying".


So true, thank you for reminding me again of the hope we all should have.

Coenie

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on May 22nd, 2007 at 8:17am
;D :) ;)

Sorry all, have to do this but the previous post earned me my 100th post and the new title of Full member even though I have been on this forum for 2 years. I obviously did not have much to say  :)

For those who wish to translate by some means into afrikaans " 'n stil bek is 'n heel bek"

Sorry for the hi-jack but we are used to them in South Africa  :D

Coenie

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on May 22nd, 2007 at 3:20pm
Afrika Slinger, you are speaking very frankly about what I'm doing with this mail: reaching for the 100. But we shouldn't worry about it.  There will always be somebody writing even more meaningless mails. 8-)

Does your Afrikaans saying mean something like "A silent mouth keeps its health"?

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on May 23rd, 2007 at 3:18am
;D

Congrats on your 100. The meaning is something like you said.

Coenie

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on Jun 1st, 2007 at 4:39pm
Thanks Africa Slinger!  :D
But I hope we didn't interrupt any theological discussion  ::)

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wannabeslinger on Jun 3rd, 2007 at 2:39pm
loki is actually very wrong there have been many discoveries of places where biblical stories have taken place and they fit, the city of Jericho was found and there was evidence of the whole site collapsing ect..

sodom and gomorrah was found and there was evidence of huge fires

an old coastline was found 300 feet underwater that was tied to noahs arc

there are many more

they've found proof of goliath and david is mentioned more than jesus in the bible (o.O)

of course we all know that a sling is very deadly and cant be very accurate in the hands of an experienced slinger

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 3rd, 2007 at 9:22pm

Quote:
an old coastline was found 300 feet underwater that was tied to noahs arc


wow, well i'm convinced  

no, wait a minute....it takes an hour to properly clean out a couple of rabbits, a few white mice, and a ferret - the chances of every animal in the world being fed, watered and kept clean for 40 days on a wooden ship are zero. which species is easy or even possible to care for at sea?  leopards, wild boar, cicadas, black mambas?
Noah forgot about the sabre-toothed tiger, but brought the non-sabre toothed one, and why didn't he leave rats, ticks, fleas lice and bed-bugs off the cargo manifest?      

as far as corroborating evidence goes, if someone found a pair of large wooden waterproof canoe-shaped boots, with "from the workshops of Jesus Christ" written in them, would that explain the "walking on water" story to a Christian? nah, they have their Book, which is always right since it says so itself - and it is never wrong, being the Word of God - which it also says itself.

in fact, apart from recording the the presence of the Roman Empire, the Bible is unsubstantiated for the most part, and incorrect in many respects.

example: the Bible records God as saying the following to the serpent


Quote:
Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


next time you go to the zoo, ask what kind of dust their snakes eat. and if the quote isn't to be taken literally, well then maybe the Ark isn't literal, or the 6 day creation, or the virgin birth.  


Quote:
Though many will and are, giving up the faith, saying:  "My master is delaying"


the reason why no-one's seen the master for 2000 years is the same reason why Julius Caesar is "delaying" - it's because, well, he happens to be dead.  

SV


 

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jun 3rd, 2007 at 10:16pm


Wannabeslinger, I loved your comments.  Good stuff, keep up the good work.


http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm


Revelation 19:11-21


:'(


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 4th, 2007 at 4:58am
as any scholar of holy writ will see, Matthew 1:6-16 AND Luke 3:23-31 both contradict Luke 1:35

for all you holy joes who would rather congratulate each other about the contents of an overturned troopship found in the depths, and who feel that ignoring a valid objection is reasonable, or even good manners....  

[quote]I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?/quote]

if Solomon pronounces thusly, who are we to argue?  ;D


SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Jun 4th, 2007 at 7:15am

I believe the careful Bible student is likely to conclude that Matthew and
Luke present two different genealogies. Following through the genealogies,
one will notice that there are some names which are common to both, but
also, an great number of differences. Matthew begins at the patriarch
Abraham, and works his way to Jesus the Christ. Luke begins at Jesus,
and works his way back to Adam. There are two genealogies, with two
distinct purposes. Matthew, it appears reveals the genealogy of Joseph,
and Luke, presents the genealogy of Mary.
Matthew, penning his gospel with the Jews in mind sets out to establish
Jesus' qualifications to be the Messiah through Joseph's genealogy. Thus,
beginning with Abraham, he maps the Lord's genealogy through David, and
the kings which followed. He presents Jesus royal lineage (through the
males) through "...Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born
Jesus..."
Luke, writes to the Gentiles with a view toward the humanity of Christ. The
concept of one being both God and man would seem strange and foreign
to those accustomed to Greek and Roman gods. Thus, Luke begins at
Jesus, and follows the genealogy of Mary, passing through the patriarchs,
ending with the very first man, Adam.
If Luke is tracing the genealogy of Mary, why does he cite Joseph's name?
Today, it would be politically incorrect to map a woman's genealogy through
her husband, however, in Luke's day, it was proper and correct. Luke
follows Mary's genealogy, beginning with the name of Joseph, her husband,
Heli's son-in-law (in legal terms, his son by marriage).
There is no contradiction.  8-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 4th, 2007 at 8:56am
thanks for your reply. it would seem that there are 2 genealogies, since there are few similarities.  
as far as i can recall, the two genealogies contain only 3 names in common - Jesus, joseph and david.
apart from the fact that the genealogy which commences with adam would date the earth to well under the scientifically accepted age of several billion years, the purpose seems to be to note that Jesus was a direct descendant of david. as the promised Messiah, such a lineage would be of benefit in His mission.
JC might well have been a descendant of king david, but since in later years He was assumed to be of divine origin and conceived of the Holy Spirit, any genealogy must be false - either that, or the doctrine of the Trinity is false.  
i'm not convinced that your explanation is a good one, it seems to be contrived to account for the differences. nevertheless, it's an interesting topic for discussion, thanks again for the reply  :)

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Jun 4th, 2007 at 9:52am
;D

Sure, only a pleasure. One to you though, here goes.


Quote:
would date the earth to well under the scientifically accepted age of several billion years


I guess moondrift as sientifically accepted is a farce then, since a couple of billion years of drift ago, the moon would have been touching the earth.

Coenie

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 4th, 2007 at 1:05pm
cheers, apparently the moon's orbit does change, you are correct.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=699

from wikipedia


Quote:
The tidal bulges on Earth are carried ahead of the Earth-Moon axis by a small amount as a result of the Earth's rotation. This is a direct consequence of friction and the dissipation of energy as water moves over the ocean bottom and into or out of bays and estuaries. As a result, some of the Earth's rotational momentum is gradually being transferred to the Moon's orbital momentum, and this causes the Moon to slowly recede from Earth at the rate of approximately 38 millimetres per year. Due to conservation of angular momentum, the Earth's rotation is gradually slowing, and the Earth's day thus lengthens by about 17 microseconds every year (this would make each Earth day one second longer every 60,000 years or so, by one minute longer every four million years, and by four hours longer in 1 billion years' time. Looking back, the day was a mere 23h in length when the Dinosaurs roamed the Earth 65 million years ago). See tidal acceleration for a more detailed description and references.


however, since JC didn't mention astronomy (or evolution) it seems that these theories or hypotheses are up to the individual

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jun 4th, 2007 at 1:23pm

Africa Slinger, great points you've made.  


http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/SBS777/vital/evolutio.html


Blessings in Yahshua,



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 4th, 2007 at 2:01pm
great -  as to evolution, the USA - source of much wisdom and common sense has come up with the following

http://news.ufl.edu/2004/02/20/artificialdna/

what can possibly go wrong?

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 4th, 2007 at 2:17pm
i commented on the unfeasability of noah's ark, based purely on logistics and intractable nature of wild beasts, and no reply was forthcoming, just a post about the red sea crossing. the locial reson for wheels under the sea (wrecked cargo ship) was ignored and africa_slinger kindly responded to the genealogy question with a reasoned rely - he ignored the point about any genealogy conflicting with the trinity, but raised an astronomical question instead, ie lunar orbital change supposedly contradicting the "old earth" theory. to my scientifically valid reposne, TS in his wisdom congratulates A_S and brings up evolution.
is there ANY possibility that a creationist can debate a particular point without changing the subject?

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jun 4th, 2007 at 2:30pm

It's ok, we know how ya feel....but do take heart, if we become truly famished for 'intractable logistics' we know who not to ignore.




TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 4th, 2007 at 6:08pm

Quote:
is there ANY possibility that a creationist can debate a particular point without changing the subject?


it would appear not  ;D

SV


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Jun 5th, 2007 at 1:54am
:o

Play fair now SV. Some people do have jobs and other functions to perform. I would love to sit in front of the idiot box (PC) all day and chat away but anyway...


Quote:
he ignored the point about any genealogy conflicting with the trinity


Patience dear SV. Read better. Joseph was the legal father of Jesus by being wed to Mary. That is easy to understand. If somebody's mother got married again would that person have a new father by law. Surely you knew this? Read that passage in the bible (I know you have one) and do not take any verses out of context like what was done with Ecc 3:18-20. For right after the quoted passage it says

Ecc 3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


Quote:
but raised an astronomical question instead


You are the only one able to raise questions? Your reply seems made up of words only. To me it feels like there is no answer there.

Moon Drift. The moon is drifting slowly away from the Earth. If it is getting further away, then at one time it was much closer. The Inverse Square Law in physics states that if the moon was half the distance away, its gravitational effect on our tides would be quadrupled. One third the distance and it would be 9 times stronger. We would all drown twice a day. 1.2 billion (1,200 million) years ago, the moon would have been touching the Earth. Do some math for youself.


Quote:
is there ANY possibility that a creationist can debate a particular point without changing the subject?


My general feeling is that the questions are forthcoming one way only. Like the old ways of war; Dear Sir please have the first volley, and then the opponent is not given a chance to a return volley.

:)

Coenie

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 5th, 2007 at 4:30am
hi A_S  at least you aren't making cheap comments and posting pictures of a potato; i wonder if  that's a kind of racism since i'm currently resident in Ireland - in which case TS is not only pathetic, he's wrong again - it should have been a lime.    ;D


Quote:
Ecc 3:21  Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


i'm glad you quoted that line from ecclesiastes, (my favorite book of the OT) but the quote is more accurately rendered thus -


Quote:
Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?


even Solomon doesn't know what happens after death to the "spirit"


Quote:
Your reply seems made up of words only.


all replies here are made up of words, there isn't much i can do about that. getting back to the moon question, which i wasn't dodging, your assessment certainly agrees with current theory, that at the formation of the earth at over 1 billion years ago, the moon was part of the earth, and the orbit has gradually increased.

it also dates the formation of the earth to a much earlier date than a literal creationist would admit. unlike you and i, these people would rather skip the maths to keep their beliefs intact - very unscientific.

re. the genealogy of JC, i concede your point - legally Joseph was JC's father - however, my doubt was, that by linking JC by blood to david, to fulfill the prophecy of the messiah being a descendant of david, the doctrine of the trinity was compromised. nevertheless, as a legal son of joseph, JC could claim to be a descendant of david in the sense of being of david's family line.

however, the demons which JC cast out recognised him as "son of david" - they were under no doubts    

since you mention that you don't have much time to wade through your opponent's "counterblastes" i better call it a day

thanks for the civil, reasoned interchange   :)


SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Jun 5th, 2007 at 7:46am
:)


Quote:
thanks for the civil, reasoned interchange


What is the saying, Christians are not perfect, just saved.  ;D

Ecclesiastes is a dificult book to comprehend. The wisdom of Solomon was spiritual and not fleshly if you understand what I am trying to say.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I am also happy that the volley was civil and no name calling etc was the order.

And lastly,

1Co 2:5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Have a good one all

Coenie


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jun 5th, 2007 at 12:56pm

Great reasoning once again, Africa Slinger.  However, I'm sure you are finding out, as I did....that it really is not productive to debate with one who is thin skinned and has no ears, who borrows the idea of "civil, reasoned interchange" from the movie: Idiocracy.


Rumor has it there is a famine coming....for many it is well underway, taking several forms.


God bless,


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 6th, 2007 at 5:01am
if you object to bad manners then you are "thin-skinned", if you hold a different opinion then you "have no ears"  TS is right and everyone else's viewpoint is therefore necessarily wrong    

poor TS - it's unlikely that the Heavenly Host forms a conga line every time he posts, as he probably thinks and expects. nevertheless, it may be that the Lord God picks some of his "servants" to act as a dreadful example of what can go wrong if you don't guard a spiteful nature, or take care of your mental health.
in which case, thanks TS - you gobshite!  :-*

A_S,  cheers!

SV


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Jun 6th, 2007 at 5:55am
:)

Last night was the first time I read the bible in some months. This posting got me thinking again and I realise I was missing out on the greatest book out there. My relationship with my Lord is not what it should be. Nontheless, the spesific book I was reading was, you guessed it Ecclesiastes, and I read the whole book. I can imagine why it is your best OT book SV, some powerfull stuff in there.


Quote:
even Solomon doesn't know what happens after death to the "spirit"


Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

SV, I really enjoyed having this written conversation with you. I have a feeling you might have been hurt or upset by the christian community or individuals which made you change course, T_s asside since he was most likely not the cause.
The major weakness out there is that christianity is all about religion, church,doctrine and bible bashing where it should be about the relationship with God the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord and the Holy Spirit our councelor.

Go well where ever you find or have not found yourself.  8-)

T_S

A small piece out of a verse for you

Zec 4:6 "Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."

May the Lord hold you and keep you, may His face shine upon you.

Blessings

Coenie

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Jun 6th, 2007 at 6:01am
:)

Just don't anybody label me now as the pulpit pusher, that is not my reason for posting on this site. This site is about slings and slinging but I would not hesitate if provoked to reply to theological discussion.

Coenie

8-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Jun 6th, 2007 at 6:04am
;)

So, is it real? David and Goliath

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jun 6th, 2007 at 12:41pm

So very shortly in God's measurement of time, such question will fade away.....as "the former things will not be called to mind."

Flying like doves to the windowsills of the New Jerusalem, a city over a thousand miles in length, height and width will certainly make our memories of former time seem humble in comparison!


Thank you for that appropriate scriptural reminder and blessings in Yahshua upon you as well, Africa Slinger.


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Tint on Jun 7th, 2007 at 2:35am
Let's assume that the story is real.

How good was David as a slinger?  Was it a lucky shot?  or was he so good that he was sure he could hit Goliath's forehead before getting smashed?

And how good were the slingers in the old days?  I've read that the slingers in the Roman army had to pass a test of hitting a human head size target at 600 feet.  Can they do it every shot?  

What do you think?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Tint on Jun 7th, 2007 at 3:40am
Did Dave use the sling after he became King?  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jun 7th, 2007 at 3:44am

Well, David killed a lion the day before taking down goliath.....and must've been very confident considering how anxious he was to do what, for a many days, every Israelite warrior wished they'd had the guts to attempt.

David would have felt comfortable moving fairly close to goliath before taking the shot.  Perhaps 30 feet or so.  From this distance, he could have dodged his spear easily.

However, I feel certain that if David had shouted something like,  "I'm going to drop you like a bag of dirt" instead of, "Yahweh will deliver you into my hand this day".....


Things may have gone somewhat differently.



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by aussieslinger on Jun 7th, 2007 at 5:32am

Tint wrote on Jun 7th, 2007 at 3:40am:
Did Dave use the sling after he became King?  


I have no actual evidence one way or the other but my guess is probably not as a personal weapon.

If you read on in the Biblical account you see that straight after the encounter with Goliath, King Saul's son, the Prince Jonathan publicly presented David with his own bow and other weapons. This was done as a sign of esteem and friendship, elevating David in rank to princely status.

The sling has always been the weapon of the common people. In our fabulously wealthy age it is difficult to imagine, but bows were extremely expensive, as indeed were the arrows shot from them, and well out of reach for most people. There may have even been laws prohibiting commoners from owning bows as autocrats are always worried by the prospect of an well-armed assassin. Also, a bow looks so deceptively simple but to make a good one is no easy task whereas slings were easy and cheap to produce and stones are free.

However as King, David would have commanded his armies which most likely would have included slingers. He may have on occassion shown them how it's done.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by aussieslinger on Jun 7th, 2007 at 6:19am

Tint wrote on Jun 7th, 2007 at 2:35am:
Let's assume that the story is real.

How good was David as a slinger?  Was it a lucky shot?  or was he so good that he was sure he could hit Goliath's forehead before getting smashed?

And how good were the slingers in the old days?  I've read that the slingers in the Roman army had to pass a test of hitting a human head size target at 600 feet.  Can they do it every shot?  

What do you think?


David was a shepherd and as such was probably using his sling every day. He was undoubdtedly very good, but probably all shepherds were as good or close to it. What is certain is that he was supremely confident and had deep faith in God. He was also probably very close to Goliath when shooting, just enough to keep out of range of Goliath's javelin.

As far as consistently hitting a human head at 600', that is almost certainly vast exaggeration. There are few riflemen who could do it consistently shooting offhand and even the rifle itself would probably have a greater dispersion than that. Assume a target of 10" diameter to make the math simple. At 200 yds. that means an angle of dipersion of only 5 minutes. With stones and a braided sling?

Yurek posted an article some time ago about an Iranian shepherd. This man could consistently hit a full man-sized target two out of three times at 100m. Even that is (imo) excellent shooting. It is unlikely that the "ancients" did any better than that.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jun 7th, 2007 at 1:36pm


Quote:
Yurek posted an article some time ago about an Iranian shepherd. This man could consistently hit a full man-sized target two out of three times at 100m.



With smart ammo......


Maybe.



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Jun 12th, 2007 at 6:22am



here's a plate which was commissioned by heraclius, byzantine emperor, in the 7th century - it may be posted elsewhere, but it's the first time i've seen it - a beautiful piece of work    

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Africa_Slinger on Jun 13th, 2007 at 2:37am
:)

Beautifull indeed, what a great find. That should be added to the gallery.

Coenie

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Jul 10th, 2007 at 8:34am
First, I have to admit that I have not read this long thread in detail.
Anyway, as to if the account of David & Goliath is real - yes, why not? To have champions fight before the real clash (I have never really believed that the fight of the champions replaced the big battle) seems to have been usual in many times and cultures, so... yes. No problems so far.

Goliath being nine feet tall... Nah, I don´t belive that. 7 feet might be more realistic, though, and the people describing the event probably wanted David´s victory to sound even more impressive so they added a couple of feet for literary effect. (Or maybe the Philistine propaganda stated him to be 9 feet to scare people  ;))

That David killed Goliath with his sling - oh, yes! And it was no miracle, either, it certainly did not require any personal attention from God! To stay out of Goliath´s effective range, David would have to keep, say 5 meters away from Goliath. He was small and quick, Goliath was big and considering his heavy armour and weapons most likely slow. Let the big guy move around in the heat for a while and work up a sweat, and when he stands still and catches his breath, maybe even lifts up his helmet to wipe his forehead to keep the sweat from trickling down into his eyes - WHAM!

An expert slinger at the range of 5 meters would definitely be able to make a clean kill of a large man. If the Bible had stated "David pulled out a Smith & Wesson .38 and shot Goliath in the head" nobody would be the least surprised (well, apart from the anacronism, then...) - but in a way that was exactly what happened!

All statements of Goliath having superior weapons, and David "miraculously" defeating him are simply nonsense, if you ask me. David had a deadly weapon with longer effective range than Goliath´s, and he was an expert at using it! Everybody underestimated David´s sling, while David himself knew exactly what he could do with it. In my opinion, Goliath was in fact dead the moment David stepped out to face him - it just took Goliath (and everyone else) some time to realize it.

So yes, I think the story of David & Goliath is an account of an event that happened for real, but more like when movies are "based on a true...". As for a miracle by God - nope. There is simply no need for a miracle, even if I believed there was a God!

Lasse C

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Jul 10th, 2007 at 9:58am

Lasse C wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 8:34am:
To stay out of Goliath´s effective range, David would have to keep, say 5 meters away from Goliath.

The story says Goliath had a spear, so you would have to stay out of spear throwing range, too. It's a bit harder but for a trained shepherd it should still be possible.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Jul 10th, 2007 at 10:39am

Dravonk wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 9:58am:
The story says Goliath had a spear, so you would have to stay out of spear throwing range, too. It's a bit harder but for a trained shepherd it should still be possible.


Please note that I wrote "effective" range, not "potential" or "maximum" range.
Sure, Goliath could no doubt hurl his spear for a considerable distance, but a hard, long throw is pretty useless on a quick-moving single opponent with his eyes focused on you. I´d say that the distance he could use his spear and expect to actually hit quick-moving little David was limited to stabbing and a short throw that could be made with a surprise movement - which is hard to do with a heavy spear. That effective range might even be less than 5 metres.

Theoretically Goliath could stand with his arm raised and spear held ready to throw, but agile little David could run in circles around him, forcing him to turn for a new aim, and turn and turn... You don´t stand holding a heavy spear in a "throw-ready" position in baking sun very long.

No, I maintain my claim that David was likely to have been at least fairly safe 5 metres from Goliath, while in comfortable range for his own sling.

Lasse C

*PS: OK, for the sake of argument, let´s say 10 meters - but it really doesn´t make any real difference *

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jul 10th, 2007 at 12:36pm

Your Smith & Wesson comparison has merit, I believe.  The sling was both the Smith & Wesson and Sharps of it's day.  When demonstrating that the sling is capable of having accomplished what is recorded, I chose a distance of 10 meters for the reasons cited.  Although I have no doubt that David's 'zone of confidence' was certainly much larger than my own.  David's prospects likely became much more exciting inside 15 meters, as inside this distance there was little time for worthwhile reaction on the part of Goliath.  David would have maintained the option of slightly adjusting the arc of his cast should Goliath have attempted an impromptu gymnastics tryout during the 'gauging' or 'uptake' portion of the cast.  



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Stoner on Aug 11th, 2007 at 3:23am
Yes, it is real.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Stoner on Aug 11th, 2007 at 3:30am

Lasse C wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 8:34am:
First, I have to admit that I have not read this long thread in detail.
Anyway, as to if the account of David & Goliath is real - yes, why not? To have champions fight before the real clash (I have never really believed that the fight of the champions replaced the big battle) seems to have been usual in many times and cultures, so... yes. No problems so far.

Goliath being nine feet tall... Nah, I don´t belive that. 7 feet might be more realistic, though, and the people describing the event probably wanted David´s victory to sound even more impressive so they added a couple of feet for literary effect. (Or maybe the Philistine propaganda stated him to be 9 feet to scare people  ;))

That David killed Goliath with his sling - oh, yes! And it was no miracle, either, it certainly did not require any personal attention from God! To stay out of Goliath´s effective range, David would have to keep, say 5 meters away from Goliath. He was small and quick, Goliath was big and considering his heavy armour and weapons most likely slow. Let the big guy move around in the heat for a while and work up a sweat, and when he stands still and catches his breath, maybe even lifts up his helmet to wipe his forehead to keep the sweat from trickling down into his eyes - WHAM!

An expert slinger at the range of 5 meters would definitely be able to make a clean kill of a large man. If the Bible had stated "David pulled out a Smith & Wesson .38 and shot Goliath in the head" nobody would be the least surprised (well, apart from the anacronism, then...) - but in a way that was exactly what happened!

All statements of Goliath having superior weapons, and David "miraculously" defeating him are simply nonsense, if you ask me. David had a deadly weapon with longer effective range than Goliath´s, and he was an expert at using it! Everybody underestimated David´s sling, while David himself knew exactly what he could do with it. In my opinion, Goliath was in fact dead the moment David stepped out to face him - it just took Goliath (and everyone else) some time to realize it.

So yes, I think the story of David & Goliath is an account of an event that happened for real, but more like when movies are "based on a true...". As for a miracle by God - nope. There is simply no need for a miracle, even if I believed there was a God!

Lasse C




WHO ARE YOU? THE DEVILS ADVOCQATE?  Osama bin laden is 7 feet tall, and I am near 6 and a half feet tall, 9 feet what is that? there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of people in FINLAND who are over 7 feet tall, the tallest man alive is what, ELEVEN (11)!! FEET TALL!! WHAT IS 9 FEET? IT IS NOTHING!!  >:(

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Aug 11th, 2007 at 3:12pm

Stoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2007 at 3:30am:
WHO ARE YOU? THE DEVILS ADVOCQATE?  Osama bin laden is 7 feet tall, and I am near 6 and a half feet tall, 9 feet what is that? there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of people in FINLAND who are over 7 feet tall, the tallest man alive is what, ELEVEN (11)!! FEET TALL!! WHAT IS 9 FEET? IT IS NOTHING!!  >:(

Whoaa, my friend, calm down - OK?
I am... a person fond of facts...  [smiley=engel017.gif]
The tallest man alive is 236 cms tall. That is 7 feet and (barely) 9 inches, my friend - unless there is a special way of measuring feet in Finland which I don´t know of. For all the rest of us 1 foot = 12 inches = 12 x 2,54 cms = 30.48 cms.

7 feet is 213 cms. Not unheard of, but unusual. If there really are that many people in Finland taller than 213 cms Finland must have a most impressive national basket team!!
(World champs many times over, I suppose?  ;))

9 feet is 277 cms. I don´t claim it is impossible for a person to grow that big - but it is:
A) Very, very, very unusual.
B) Highly impractical. The human frame does not really have the construction for those sizes. Extremely tall (+230 cms) people often get problems with knees, hips, feet, etc.

So, a person being 9 feet tall, and mobile and strong enough to become a good warrior? No, I simply don´t believe that. Sorry.

Lasse C
(6 foot 3 inches, BTW)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by DesertPilot on Aug 12th, 2007 at 2:33am
The biblical tale certainly could be based on some actual incident or incidents.  The time period corresponds to one when body armor wasn't very good, shields only seemed to have a single handgrip, and missile weapons had the potential to dominate the battlefield.  Indeed, battlefield remains from around the Mediterranean show so many sling injuries that some archeologists have called it the 'thirty millimeter wound'.

As far as details like heights, weights, and distances go... what units of measurement did those ancient Israelites use?  Is there any chance that these were preserved by oral tradition for several centuries, accurately converted to the entirely different system of units that were in use when the Old Testament was written, and then translated, through a succession of alien languages and cultures, to the units of measurement we use today?  Is there any chance that the numbers themselves -- something scribes were notoriously likely to get wrong -- were copied and recopied without a single error for almost three thousand years?  This seems unlikely.  And if you compare all the many different versions of the bible, ancient and modern, you might find some striking disagreements.

Still a good story though.  That poor Goliath dude.  The odds were against him, and he probably knew it.  But still he went out to fight for his people.  Brave man.  I would have waited 2000 years, until decent close-faced helmets with good internal padding were invented...

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Aug 12th, 2007 at 2:56am

DesertPilot wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 2:33am:
Is there any chance that the numbers themselves -- something scribes were notoriously likely to get wrong -- were copied and recopied without a single error for almost three thousand years?  This seems unlikely.  And if you compare all the many different versions of the bible, ancient and modern, you might find some striking disagreements.


As for units, I think they are not that far off. Most measuring units over history has been based on parts of the human body, the dimensions of which has not really changed dramatically since Cro Magnon came on to the scene.

Numbers, on the other hand...
Yes, scribes are notorious for getting them wrong, or to change - or even "grabbing them out of thin air" - for the literary effect. A good example of this is the statments of how many people were killed by the plague in Medieval times. Modern calculations of how many people who actually must have lived in different areas means that according to the scribes everybody in some places must have died - two or three times each!  ::)

So, numbers passed on over long time are not to be trusted - which is a good reason I doubt Goliath was 9 feet tall. (Especially him not even being from Finland!! ;))

Maybe Goliath knew he did not have a chance. But, what choice did he have? Actually? Refuse to go out there and be considered to "chicken out" in front of a shepherd boy - or to go out and die for his "King & country". Not unheard of in history, after all. Die as he did, he made his name immortal! Many men have chosen death for a chance at that, very few succeeded as well as Goliath.

Lasse C

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Tint on Aug 12th, 2007 at 3:29am
Goliath who?

Oh, that guy from Finland? ;D

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Stoner on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am

Lasse C wrote on Aug 11th, 2007 at 3:12pm:

Stoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2007 at 3:30am:
WHO ARE YOU? THE DEVILS ADVOCQATE?  Osama bin laden is 7 feet tall, and I am near 6 and a half feet tall, 9 feet what is that? there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of people in FINLAND who are over 7 feet tall, the tallest man alive is what, ELEVEN (11)!! FEET TALL!! WHAT IS 9 FEET? IT IS NOTHING!!  >:(

Whoaa, my friend, calm down - OK?
I am... a person fond of facts...  [smiley=engel017.gif]
The tallest man alive is 236 cms tall. That is 7 feet and (barely) 9 inches, my friend - unless there is a special way of measuring feet in Finland which I don´t know of. For all the rest of us 1 foot = 12 inches = 12 x 2,54 cms = 30.48 cms.

7 feet is 213 cms. Not unheard of, but unusual. If there really are that many people in Finland taller than 213 cms Finland must have a most impressive national basket team!!
(World champs many times over, I suppose?  ;))

9 feet is 277 cms. I don´t claim it is impossible for a person to grow that big - but it is:
A) Very, very, very unusual.
B) Highly impractical. The human frame does not really have the construction for those sizes. Extremely tall (+230 cms) people often get problems with knees, hips, feet, etc.

So, a person being 9 feet tall, and mobile and strong enough to become a good warrior? No, I simply don´t believe that. Sorry.

Lasse C
(6 foot 3 inches, BTW)



You're not a fan of due diligence...

the Tallest Man ever, Robert Wadlow, who stood at a staggering 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in).



So Goliath never existed, eh? Because no man could ever be just about 9 feet, right?
Mr. Wadlow was fully functional when he lived.


Oh, and first you said 7 feet was 237 cm, but it's really 213. There are THOUSANDS of people in finland who are 210 cm. NOTHING UNUSUAL! Unless you're a scrawny little teenager from England.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Aug 12th, 2007 at 10:41am
This is also quite interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath#Textual_variations

There seem to be older versions of the story where the height is "just" six feet and six inches (198 cm).


Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
So Goliath never existed, eh? Because no man could ever be just about 9 feet, right?

His existance was not in doubt, only his height.


Quote:
Mr. Wadlow was fully functional when he lived.

"When he lived". He died with 22.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow
It doesn't sound like he was too healthy. But of course there is no report in the bible of how old Goliath was at the time of the battle. Goliath might have been 17 himself so the negative consequences didn't kick in yet. But as older texts report a more realistic height, that is easier for me to believe.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Aug 12th, 2007 at 12:26pm
I have said this before, but it bears saying again.  The height of Goliath is recorded as being "six cubits and a span".  A span is half a cubit; a cubit is the length from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.  The standard of measure was the King.

Given that the cubit was defined in terms of the human body, it might be better to ignore the modern definition of a cubit (eighteen inches) and just say that Goliath stood between half again and twice the height of an normal man.  If men were typically around five feet tall, that's three cubits and not quite a span, which makes Goliath twice as tall; if men were closer to six feet, that's four cubits and Goliath is closer to half again as tall.

I know that it is commonly believed that people are getting larger over time.  This is based on measurements of medieval armor from Europe, which shows that the wearers were barely five feet tall.  However, I believe it is more a matter of nutrition than "evolution" (whatever that is) and so it is quite possible that the men of Israel were taller than the ill-nourished Europeans of a few centuries ago.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Aug 12th, 2007 at 2:14pm

Dale wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 12:26pm:
I have said this before, but it bears saying again.  The height of Goliath is recorded as being "six cubits and a span".  A span is half a cubit; a cubit is the length from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.  The standard of measure was the King.

Well, according to the Wikipedia article I mentioned the height of Goliath was also given as four cubits and a span:

Quote:
There are significant differences between the Masoretic (Hebrew), Septuagint (Greek), and Dead Sea Scrolls versions of 1 Samuel 17.[3] One of the most interesting of these relates to Goliath's height: 4QSam(a), the Dead Sea Scrolls text of Samuel, gives the height of Goliath as "four cubits and a span," (about six feet six inches), and this is what the original Septuagint and the 1st century CE historian Josephus also record. Later Septuagint manuscripts read "six cubits and a span," about nine feet six inches.[4]



Dale wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 12:26pm:
I know that it is commonly believed that people are getting larger over time.  This is based on measurements of medieval armor from Europe, which shows that the wearers were barely five feet tall.  However, I believe it is more a matter of nutrition than "evolution" (whatever that is) and so it is quite possible that the men of Israel were taller than the ill-nourished Europeans of a few centuries ago.

True, I think I have read somewhere that the hunters and gatherers in Europe were taller than the later medieval humans.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by curious_aardvark on Aug 13th, 2007 at 12:47pm

Quote:
This is based on measurements of medieval armor from Europe

And just about any measurement of clothe and dwellings anywhere in the world - also on the fact that surviving primitive cultures are generally shortarses (africans tend to be the exception.)

As for people 9 feet tall - yep there is a bloke who has a pituitary gland malfunction. He was last measured in 2006 (one article I read said he was measured in 2004) at 8 feet 5 inches and has probably grown since then. But he doesn't like being measured and it's not like you're going to make him do something he doesn't want to do easily :-)  
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/09/wtallest109.xml
But it's a good bet that when he dies he'll probbaly be taller than robert walpole.

But given that most ancient societies were considerably shorter than modern western type societies then anything much over six feet or approaching 7 feet would definitely have classed as giant. Particularly if they were proportionally wide as well as tall. Tall skinny people just don't look threatening :-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Aug 17th, 2007 at 3:20pm

Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
the Tallest Man ever, Robert Wadlow, stood at a staggering 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in).  
Yep. But you wrote "tallest man alive", which according to the info I could dig up is something else. Please re-read what you wrote. If anything, I think Robert Wadlow rather proves my point that people nine feet tall are extremely rare. (And according to pictures Robert Wadlow did not look very intimidating...)


Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
So Goliath never existed, eh? Because no man could ever be just about 9 feet, right?
Nope, I never claimed that. I do not question Goliath´s existence - just his height. Again: Please go back and re-read.


Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
Oh, and first you said 7 feet was 237 cm, but it's really 213.
Ahemmm... as far as I can see, I claim 7 ft and 9 inches is 237 cm - which it is. 7 feet is still 213 cm. Please go back and re-read. Again... ;)


Stoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:21am:
There are THOUSANDS of people in finland who are 210 cm. NOTHING UNUSUAL!
And, pray tell me, in what what way is the number of tall people in Finland of today relevant to the discussion about Goliath´s height in Palestine thousands of years ago?  ::) (Even if I did consider it relevant, I would still like to see some statistics to back that up)

I must say you seem to read rather carelessly before you answer. I also think you should consider your attitude. There is really no need to attack in the way you do. (To quote the "Godfather": "What have I ever done to you to make you treat me this disrespectfully?") If this is how you conduct a discussion, you will get no further response from me.

Lasse C

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by bamaham93 on Sep 26th, 2007 at 6:59pm

Loki wrote on Jul 18th, 2006 at 3:47pm:
I almost forgot to say something. The Bible was written by men, just like all holy text, and the bottom line is that men are inherently flawed and fallible.

Loki




bamaham93; written by men inspired by God.  :-X

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Sep 29th, 2007 at 3:03pm

bamaham93 wrote on Sep 26th, 2007 at 6:59pm:
written by men inspired by God.  :-X


Yeah, so they keep telling me...
But for some reason, I feel that some of those guys weren´t always paying all that much attention... And after that the text was translated, and re-translated, and re-translated...  ::)

Lasse C

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:44am
that's why the muslims keep the koran in the original arabic - it was a direct recitation of the words of the archangel gabriel, and thus beyond criticism, or so the muslims claim - whether this is true or not, the koran hasn't lost anything in translation

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by OrangeDuck on Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:57am

sv wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:44am:
that's why the muslims keep the koran in the original arabic - it was a direct recitation of the words of the archangel gabriel, and thus beyond criticism, or so the muslims claim - whether this is true or not, the koran hasn't lost anything in translation

SV


So maybe we can get a slinger who speaks original arabic (or any muslim slingers) to find out what the Qur'an has to say about it.

OrangeDuck

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by DesertPilot on Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:02am
The Muslims had a good idea, but like many traditional religions, they didn't account for the effects of evolution.  No one has any real idea what the Arabic of Mohammed's day means any more.  In the 1500 years since the Prophet wrote his epic poem, words, grammar, societial context, and human nature itself have changed beyond recognition.  For what it's worth, I just flipped through my English translation of the thing, and I couldn't find any reference to Davy and the Big G.  No help there.  Alas...

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by OrangeDuck on Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:08am

DesertPilot wrote on Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:02am:
The Muslims had a good idea, but like many traditional religions, they didn't account for the effects of evolution.  No one has any real idea what the Arabic of Mohammed's day means any more.  In the 1500 years since the Prophet wrote his epic poem, words, grammar, societial context, and human nature itself have changed beyond recognition.  For what it's worth, I just flipped through my English translation of the thing, and I couldn't find any reference to Davy and the Big G.  No help there.  Alas...


Well, for what it's worth, Wikipedia claims the Qur'an mentions David and Goliath in Surah 2 246-248 and Surah 2 249-251. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_between_the_Bible_and_the_Qur%27an

OrangeDuck

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Trebuchet on Oct 1st, 2007 at 5:13am

Loki wrote on Jul 18th, 2006 at 3:47pm:
I almost forgot to say something. The Bible was written by men, just like all holy text, and the bottom line is that men are inherently flawed and fallible.

Loki


Very true.  I suspect it really happened but doubt that Goliath was nine cubits tal (or whatever).  Let us just say he was a big fighting man.  Also, the Phillistines were an Iron Age culture, whereas the Isralis were still stuck in the Bonze Age.  If you read your scripture closely, you'll learn that after the David and Goliath encounter, the Israelites captured the iron makers from the Philistines and became an Iron Age culture.  This let them smite betwen the fourth and fith rib much more effectively.

They smote everything quite well until it came to the Romans, eho were only taken by surprise and usually responded with "peace through superior firepower."   You can take that as a definition of "Pas Romana."  

The Israleites learned a lot from the Philistines.   From metal working to agriculture.

Trebuchet

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Trebuchet on Oct 1st, 2007 at 5:17am
Hey, Loki!

Why did you quit being the Angel of Death?  We haven't had a good one since you quit.

Trebuchet

;D

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by DesertPilot on Oct 1st, 2007 at 11:24am

OrangeDuck wrote on Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:08am:
Well, for what it's worth, Wikipedia claims the Qur'an mentions David and Goliath in Surah 2 246-248 and Surah 2 249-251. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_between_the_Bible_and_the_Qur%27an


Thanks, OrangeDuck.  I never would have spotted that on my own.  It doesn't look too promising though -- in my copy of the J. M. Rodwell translation of the Koran, it looks more like a quick two-sentence summary of the Old Testament story than an independent chronical.  I guess we do need an Arabic scholar here.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Trebuchet on Oct 3rd, 2007 at 8:09pm
Does anybody have access to a copy of the Torah?  Considering the great pains the Jewish people take in making certain every new edition is an exact duplicate of the earliest, some info might be gathered there.

I have several different translations of the Christian Bible and they all agree that David took Goliath in the first round with one punch.  No mention is made of a staff sling or anything other that the implied shepard's sling.  Odd bit is that David wasn't carrying any sling bullets of his own.  Much is made of him picking up "smooth, round river rocks" before cold-cocking Goliath.  


As to the issue of Goliath's heght, as someone else said above, different cultures measured height or length in different ways.  The Romans (Julius Caesar in particular) wrote about the huge Celtic warriors of Brittania and the "giant" people from Germany.  'Course, my Roman ancestors weren't very tall.  Just very disciplined warriors, engineers, and copiers of Greek culture.  The question of Napoleon's height depends on whether it was measured in French or English inches.   ;)

Trebuchet

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 21st, 2007 at 9:44pm

slingbadger wrote on Jul 14th, 2006 at 10:27am:
Well,,, Goliath would have been about 9 feet tall. That is not beyond the realm of possibility.
 Personally, I think its more along the idea of a cautionary tale. It also shows what the simple man ( or kid,David's are really isn't mentioned) can do against a better armed adversary.

9 foot is quite possible. the talest man of this centuary was 2.8 meters. the roman emperor maximus was 8 feet tall. their have been hundreds of ancient records of people called giants who where from 7 to 20 feet tall. (we just dont hear about them :() also their have been dozens of fossiles found that have been an average of 12 feet, (we dont hear about them iether,why? Because it goes against moddern man's "scientific laws of nature. :-X"). :-/

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 21st, 2007 at 9:59pm
the bible also mentions a few other giants in 2 samuel. it refered to them as "sons of the giant" their where five sons of the giant, one of whom had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, (that would be a mutation, or multiplication of genes.) goliath was also one of the five sons of the giant. (for reference look up 2 samuel chapter 21 vs 15  ;) their are dozens oof other giants mentioned in the bible (some are mentioned in joshua.)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wannabeslinger on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 5:38pm
www.projesus.com

many biblical stories have be proven to be true

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by DesertPilot on Oct 24th, 2007 at 2:29am
The whole 'shepherd is/becomes royalty, takes out an enemy hero with a missile weapon, and runs off with another man's wife' story is extremely suspicious.  It was a pretty standard myth in the ancient Middle East, and the Israelites probably nicked it from my Greek ancestors, who had a somewhat older and spicier version, complete with love goddesses, wealthy shipowners, beach parties, and plenty of wine.  Paris... David... Achilles... Goliath... Helen... Bathsheba... same thing, really.  But we came up with the idea first!  Ho ho!  No wonder Saul's army seems like such a dour lot compared with the Trojans and Achaeans.  Second place is never fun...

The bit about slings, however, seems to be unique to the biblical tale.  In most other versions of the myth, the hero uses an arrow ("Take that!"  TWANG!  "Ouch, my head/ankle/heart/naughtybits/whatever!") to dispatch his foe.  The biblical tale also contains enough circumstantial details -- such as a plausible number of slingstones and cutting off the fallen enemy's head to make sure he's dead and not merely stunned -- to suggest that these parts were based on one or more actual incidents.  Was this really some single combat between champions, rather than a random shot in the middle of a pitched battle?  It's quite possible, for such things are not unknown among small agrarian societies at that level of cultural development, so I'll be happy to give Samuel and Chronicles the benefit of the doubt on this.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Oct 24th, 2007 at 7:02am

Quote:
many biblical stories have be proven to be true


which ones?

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 25th, 2007 at 1:16am

sv wrote on Oct 24th, 2007 at 7:02am:

Quote:
many biblical stories have be proven to be true


which ones?

SV


abraham the father of jews was supposed to have had ishmael, this is backed up by muslimism.
creation has smashed the face of evolution many a time ( go to creationministries.org,i dont know how to post a link, also read the bible, the orgional document for christian beliefs, nkjv is probably best)
their is some version of the great flood in most ancient civilizations (africa, israel, persia, thier are more but those are the ones i've heard of.)
christianity is the most scientificly correct religion.
recently a cuniform tablet has been found with strong links to jeremiah (biblical prophet.)
the mount sinai (a place which god met moses) has been found (www.baseinstitute.org)
and even if god, jesus, hold spirit wasn't real (i don't think thats possible) christianity improves ones morral standards so much that if every one followed what the bible taught perfectly we would be living in a world hundreds of times better.

Christianity is benificial wiether or not it's true.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Oct 25th, 2007 at 10:14am

axon50 wrote on Oct 25th, 2007 at 1:16am:
creation has smashed the face of evolution many a time ( go to creationministries.org,i dont know how to post a link, also read the bible, the orgional document for christian beliefs, nkjv is probably best)

I started reading the FAQ of the site you mentioned but all it said was that any "old earth theory" is in conflict with a literal interpretation (6 days) of the bible and must therefor be wrong. I expected more arguments than that.

Even the catholic church accepted evolution. They interpret it as "theistic evolution". (Which is also what I believe).

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 26th, 2007 at 12:30am
oh well, i can see im not going to get anywhere if all i give you is links ive never even read(i just heard they where good.) ;D
In the beggining god made the world. first he made light(clever, he made it in order) then he made the sun, the moon and all the planets (excluding earth) then he made the earth, then he made water, then he made the plants (notice that he made it in order), he then made the animals, then he made  man then woman. he prceded to say the the entire earth was good. then they (the two people) did the only thing god told them not to because a serpent told them to (satan). god cursed the serpent, so that he woyuld eat dust and crawl on his belly for the rest of his days. ( snake has four places in it's skeloton where legs could go, also they eat dust)
After that all the animals where alowed to eat each other (before that they where vegitarians). very soon the earth became a terrible place, god wished he'd never  made it and sent a flood to wipe everyone except noah out.(note: there are millions of  almost perfectly preserved fossils across the entire face of the world, if they took milliions of years to turn into fossiles they would be in terrible condition, and all we would be able to see by looking at them would be a mess.) also evolutionist way of dating things is in acurate by up to billions of years. (real story) someone
(i dont know his name) once cut down a swamp cowry, some of the amber fell into the swamp it was beside about 10 years latter he to it to a dating expert to get it carbon dated (evolutionists way of dating things) the man said it was about 3000 years old (oh, so acurate....)
their are no fossiles for in between evoltuion from something to something else. evolution was based on a groundless theory (i call it fairy) charles darwin admitted he had absolutely no proof for evolution on his death bed
but people still went on with the idea because they probably (this is my personal belief) had gotten used to having no respect for the divine. also evolution is the biggest something from nothing that ever happened, (i am refering to the big bang) it claims that in the beggining their was a single cell with a hell of a lot of information, this cell then exploded and more cells came along, they then condensed (by their own acord) and made planets and stars. the cell that i was talking about, where in the world did that come from?! evolution doesn't work, it works even less whne you try and mix it with creation. the fool that belives we come form apes is a fool indeed  :((that was half an insult to all who think we came from apes).  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by OrangeDuck on Oct 26th, 2007 at 1:19am
Just wanted to get my opinion in there;

I am a christian, and I am at about the age when I need to start deciding what to believe as opposed to being told what to believe. And at this age, I chose to believe what science tells us. I believe in evolution, and the big bang seems to me like the most reasonable scientific solution to the creation of the universe. I'd like to point back to the commonly used phrase coined back in the 1600's during the scientific revolution, refering to nature as clockwork and God as a clockmaker. While this phrase might not specifically apply to what I believe, perhaps it might better illustrate the beleifs of others. Like I said, I am a christian, but I do not interpret the Bible as literally as many. If you do, I seriously have no problem with that, but I will probably not be swayed from my opinion.

And to the Moderators, if this seems unfit for this forum, please do not hesitate to remove it. No hard feelings :)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Oct 26th, 2007 at 4:29am

axon50 wrote on Oct 26th, 2007 at 12:30am:
In the beggining god made the world.

I interpret Genesis as a metaphor that was meant to tell people that earth did not exist forever in the shape as we know it, but was the result of some steps that came before it. If you don't interpret it literally but just see it as some pictures there is no problem with it.

Then there are many ways to create something. There is a hocus-pokus way of a magician who creates a whole structure in an instant (one day as we know it is an instant in a cosmologically sense). Then there is the way of an engineer who choses the most elegant way. And evolution is a method used in modern computer programs already.


Quote:
if they took milliions of years to turn into fossiles they would be in terrible condition

They are usually in a terrible condition. In fact some don't even exist anymore. In this case we only see a different kind of stone at the place where the fossils used to be. Have you seen a picture of an excavation? The bones are lying more or less scattered. And most are completely gone already, that is why fossils are so rare.


Quote:
someone (i dont know his name) once cut down a swamp cowry, some of the amber fell into the swamp it was beside about 10 years latter he to it to a dating expert to get it carbon dated (evolutionists way of dating things) the man said it was about 3000 years old (oh, so acurate....)

Every method has its errors. But because of a single error you say that the whole method is wrong? Oh and by the way, carbon dating only goes back 50000 years, so it is a method applied only to younger fossils.


Quote:
evolution doesn't work

It doesn't work? Strange, I have seen computer programs who simulate evolution in order to create neural networks for solving a given problem that work quite well.


OrangeDuck wrote on Oct 26th, 2007 at 1:19am:
And to the Moderators, if this seems unfit for this forum, please do not hesitate to remove it. No hard feelings :)

Well, this whole thread is bit off-topic... But what do you expect, when you ask whether a single, very old book is correct. ;-)

PS: Axon, please don't take this personal, it is just that it is hard for me to resist to reply when I read something controversial. ;-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Oct 26th, 2007 at 5:55am
so far no-one has answered the question, axon50s response is pitiful.
OrangeDuck and Dravonk as Christians, believe in the Creator but don't take the Bible as a scientific text book, which is not unreasonable.  
having read the Bible, st Paul's account of his voyage would appear to be the only contents which may be historically verifiable.  whether the rest is true or not seems to be a matter of individual preference, based on faith rather than evidence.  
but anyway, so far no-one can point to a Biblical event which is "proven to be true" - if proof is based on scientific verification rather than inward conviction.

SV  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wanderer on Oct 26th, 2007 at 1:55pm
I think a little more than a synopsis of Genesis is needed to 'prove' anything. As should be clear from Dravonk and others, there are many Christians who do not find it necessary to accept the bible as a literal and unalterable statement of truth. Are such believers lesser christians?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 26th, 2007 at 4:32pm
the big bang theory doesnt work, simply because matter does not come from non matter of it's own acord and turn into something better, man has never created anything, it is all just a re assembly of what was already their, so how could algae do something that man has never done.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Oct 26th, 2007 at 6:48pm
exactly - what must a man do to be saved? repent and be baptised, there's nothing about adhering to a scientific theory about species' changes over long periods of time. a Christian needn't even have heard of the Old Testament or genesis, or evolution!  


Quote:
matter does not come from non matter of it's own acord and turn into something better,


maybe not - but the question was "which bible stories have been proven to be true" which is nothing whatsoever to do with the big bang or evolution. people tend to dodge the issue if they are stuck for an answer  

so, keeping to the point, which Bible stories or references have been proven to be true?

sorry if this offends anyone, but the bald assertion that many Bible stories have been proven to be true - needs to be challenged, as does any statement which is uttered with no examples to back it up

SV






Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 26th, 2007 at 7:04pm
christianity is 2,000 years old, the history of christianity is 6,000 years old, we centere time on when christ was four years old. it has strong links to other ancient religions. everything in the bible is possible, miracles have happened through beliefs in the bible, and it is the only completely acurate ancient recording. the bible is scientificly acurate in all it says, in job god says the earth was round, only in the last 600 years have man came to the same conclusion, god showed a vision of alexander the great to daniel, the bible matches on some way with most other eastern religions, muslimsm backs up the belief that abraham was father of the jews, their are a hell of a lot of bible stories with absolute proof.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by OrangeDuck on Oct 26th, 2007 at 7:06pm
Well here is a link outlining the topic, it's an article by Times; http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,133539,00.htm

And yes, many parts of the Bible are true. There is historical evidence in Roman records that Jesus existed, and that the characters around him existed. There have been accounts of things like battles similar to accounts gathered from other sources. We know for a fact that the Jews werre indeed enslaved, and did escape. Now this is the point of contention. Did God really appear to Moses through a burning bush? That can never be proved by theologists, or disproved by scientists, because neither agrees with the other's methods.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:00am

Quote:
the bible is scientificly acurate in all it says


the ancient greeks knew a lot about astronomy, did God tell them, or did they use their intelligence to develop the maths and discover the facts? saying that the earth is "round" is hardly proof of a divine presence. in any case it's a flattened sphere, not round.  "Job" is a book in which God makes a bet with Satan to see if Job will renounce God, and is not a book about science in any shape or form.


Quote:
here is historical evidence in Roman records that Jesus existed


here are NO roman records, or comtemporary records, which mention Jesus himself.
yes, there are Roman records and artifacts which prove that early Christians existed, but the only written record by an actual Christian is that of Paul, who was converted to christianity after the death of jesus. he did not see Jesus, but was converted to the Christian religion. paul knew Christians existed, and he came to believe in their message, but that is no different than anyone who becomes a Chrisitan today. he did not actually see Jesus

this doesn't prove that JC did or did not exist, it just means that there is no corroborating evidence as yet.
 

Quote:
Did God really appear to Moses through a burning bush? That can never be proved by theologists, or disproved by scientists, because neither agrees with the other's methods.


agreed - the spiritual "truths" are not verifiable by science.    


Quote:
the characters around him existed.


Qirinius is mentioned in Luke, but he was not (according to Roman records) contemporaneous with the census, which Luke says was carried out under his authority. but it would be remarkable if there was nothing in the historical background of the Bible which wasn't actual fact, such as the slavery of the hebrews

the point remains that there is no story or account of any individual or event (prior to st Paul) which can be verified by any other source.

SV  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by sv on Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:03am
OrangeDuck, that  link was very interesting, thanks for posting  :)

SV

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 27th, 2007 at 10:53pm

OrangeDuck wrote on Oct 26th, 2007 at 7:06pm:
Well here is a link outlining the topic, it's an article by Times; http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,133539,00.htm

And yes, many parts of the Bible are true. There is historical evidence in Roman records that Jesus existed, and that the characters around him existed. There have been accounts of things like battles similar to accounts gathered from other sources. We know for a fact that the Jews werre indeed enslaved, and did escape. Now this is the point of contention. Did God really appear to Moses through a burning bush? That can never be proved by theologists, or disproved by scientists, because neither agrees with the other's methods.

very interesting, you obviously have some belief that the bible has some historical values, (most people do you know)
look at it this way, because the boy cried wolf three times and their wasn't a wolf any of those times, the workers where quete sure their wasnt one when their was one because he was not trustable, however if their was a wolf all of those times the workers would've come and killed the wolf, because they could trust him. (that's only an exaple, but i think it's a good one.)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Oct 29th, 2007 at 6:41am
All this evolution contra creationist stuff  may be interesting to some - but I do feel it has a somewhat limited relevance to the original question if the story about David & Goliath can be taken as an account of an actual event.

My opinion about David & Goliath stands: It may have happened more or less as described, but -
A) I find it very unlikely that Goliath was 9 feet tall. Not impossible, just unlikely. (Why is just that detail such an issue, anyway? ::))

B) If it was true event, it was most definitely not a miracle. If the important point on the agenda for that day was Goliath´s  demise, God could take an extended lunch and 18 holes at the golf course once David had decided to use his sling... From that moment Goliath was in reality dead - it just took some time for the news to reach him.

C) The similarity to many other myths from that area and period of time does indicate that on the other hand it may be just literary fiction. (It is interesting to compare with medieval accounts of the acts of saints. Provided these stories are to be considered as true as they are claimed to be, a surprising number of saints seem to have performed the very same set of miracles - in the very same way...   )

As for the bible being true or not, I will not involve myself in that discussion to any depth. (I´ve done my share of that  pseudo-debate, thankyouverymuch) Of course there are details in the bible that can be proven to be historically correct - and some of them have been! What of it? Anything else would be most surprising! However, to draw the conclusion that because some details can be proven to be true, all of the bible - every little detail - also must be absolutely true is something entirely different. To me, drawing such a conclusion indicates such a massive lack of critical thinking and logical reasoning that I many years ago decided to avoid going into that debate.


Lasse C


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 30th, 2007 at 1:13am
interesting opinion, i don't expect you to reply to this but........ it never says that david killed goliath with the sling, in fact it indicates that he only knocked him out (did i say "only"), because after knocking him down he proceded to cut of goliaths head (why would he do that if goliath realy was dead?) it might have been a point of honour, cutting of a vanquished enimies head, but personally i think he did it to kill him.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 30th, 2007 at 1:15am
oh and yes, i am finding it very tiring defending this story so it would be nice if none replied, although i will probably answer if someone does reply.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Oct 30th, 2007 at 2:37am

axon50 wrote on Oct 30th, 2007 at 1:15am:
oh and yes, i am finding it very tiring defending this story

Why go on "defending" it? There is nothing to "defend", really!

I´d say everyone on this forum knows very well that David was perfectly able to kill or stun Goliath with a shot from his sling. Piece of cake, really! The story can very well be real. The described event is possible.

In my opinion, the point to be debated is that many Christians make such a great fuss about it, calling it a "miracle" and "Act Of God" - which only shows that they don´t know what a skilled slinger is capable of. If there is a God, and if said God saw it necessary to intervene on David´s behalf, all that was really needed was a little whisper in David´s ear, saying: "Hey, man, use your sling! That´s what you´re good at, you know!"

I´m really quite unable to understand why so many Christians seem to demand that God must make a personal appearence everywhere, everytime and for every little thing! To me it is really not a sign of respect towards their God if they think him so unable to create the world in such a way that things (at least for most of the time) work as intended by themselves. Nope, instead they demand their God to run around all the time, tweaking and twiddling on every little thing in creation, like some not-so-competent mechanic keeping an old run-down machine (more or less) working. In my eyes that means they consider their God to be both clumsy and… well… not that smart. Not to mention that they seem to think their God should come running as soon as they snap their fingers! That sure ain´t respect and reverence, if you ask me!

Lasse

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:29pm
oh flip why doesn't anyone who wants to acuse the bible go and read the entire bible before they say stuff they've indirectly heard of or read! ;) i mean the entire bible. i greatly doubt anyone will take up my challenge, and i believe what christians believe god helped david with, was bravery, (how many fifteen year olds do you know that would fight a 9 foot giant wearing full armor and using a very heavy and powerful weapon, makes sense really.)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by DesertPilot on Nov 1st, 2007 at 1:18am

axon50 wrote on Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:29pm:
oh flip why doesn't anyone who wants to acuse the bible go and read the entire bible before they say stuff they've indirectly heard of or read! ;)

Ah, the naivity of youth :)  What makes you so quick to assume that other people haven't read it?  Cover to cover.  Several times.  Including bits like Leviticus, Kings, and the nasty parts of Timothy I and II that most bible study groups skip.  In the interests of fairness, I also made my way through the Zend Avesta of Zoroaster, the Koran, various Christian apocrypha, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, the Tibetan and Egyptian books of the Dead, the Tao Te Ching, any number of sutras, and some ancient Summerian religious texts.  It was an eye-opening experience, that I can heartily recommend to anyone with an open mind and too much time on their hands.

Like all human creations, these different scriptures each have their strengths and weakness, good bits and bad bits, parts so beautiful that they seem almost divine, and parts so silly that one cannot help but wonder about the deities that inspired them.  Ancient Greek religious tradition had the best beach parties, the Summerians were the most unnerving, and as J. Robert Oppenheimer pointed out in 1945, the Bhagavad Gita has the all-time best quote for use during nuclear weapons tests.   But as far as I know, the Old Testament is the only holy book that mentions slings.  Which are less expensive than nuclear weapons, and considerably more fun!

Getting back to David vs Goliath, the standard overhand throw from a sling is a lot like the standard head shot with a broadsword.  Back when I was in the SCA, the best sword-and-shield fighters seemed to win approximately 10% of their fights with a single blow.  Extrapolating this to slings, and assuming that Goliath knew how to block, this suggests that with any given shot,  David might have had a 10% chance of taking out his opponent and a 90% chance of watching the shot bounce off his opponent's shield.

This means that if David stood his ground while Goliath rushed him, he might have a 90% chance of getting creamed.  (Whoosh!  Thippity.   "Bugger."  "Ho ho!"  JAB!  Die.  Et cetera).  But if he carried five stones, as some posts to this thread suggest, and never allowed Goliath to close within spear thrusting range, the mathematics of probability gives him at least a 41% chance of taking the big guy out -- more if Goliath's shield arm gets tired.  Those aren't great odds, but they aren't that bad either.  If you were a poor shepherd, doomed to a life of poverty, would you wager that life on 40/60 odds if you could claim the kingdom as a reward for victory?  You might.  It's a tough call, isn't it?

Of course, this means that God's advice to David might well have been, "Run, Luke, run!  Oops, sorry, wrong movie."  :)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Nov 1st, 2007 at 2:20am
i didn't read all that..... but i did get you read the bible (most of it anyway, i think you said all of it) and a whole bunch of dogy books like the book of mormon (the person who came up with that idea got killed in a gun fight because he had so many enimies, so much for a blessed man of god.)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Nov 1st, 2007 at 8:07am

axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 2:20am:
i didn't read all that..... but i did get you read the bible (most of it anyway, i think you said all of it) and a whole bunch of dogy books like the book of mormon (the person who came up with that idea got killed in a gun fight because he had so many enimies, so much for a blessed man of god.)

I haven't read the Book of Mormon, but how many enemies did Jesus have? How did he die? "So much for a blessed man of god" to cite you. A blessed person can have a lot of enemies, though not every person who has a lot of enemies is blessed.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Nov 1st, 2007 at 9:05am

axon50 wrote on Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:29pm:
oh flip why doesn't anyone who wants to acuse the bible go and read the entire bible before they say stuff they've indirectly heard of or read! ;) i mean the entire bible.


Ahemm…
I strongly suggest you begin by finding out just how much the person you oppose have read from the bible. Assuming/implying that your opponent has not read "enough" of the bible to be able to discuss properly it is not only a very poor argument rhetorically, it is also an argument that can strike back viciously at yourself if you use it against the wrong person.

I am very likely to have read at least as much of the bible as you – possibly more, I´m a systematic person. Like DesertPilot I have also read apochrypha (which I have to say I doubt you have), and more than a few scriptures from other religions.

However, I find it a little hard to understand what point you are trying to make. To me it sounds as if you claim that if parts of the bible can be proven to be historically/scientifically true, then ALL of the bible has to be true. If so, on what do you base this? The logic in such a conclusion has holes you can fly a 747 through. There are historically/scientifically true parts in the comic books about Superman, too – but that does not make them true or Superman exist.  ::)

Anyway, please do not make the mistake of brushing me off because you believe I have not read “enough” of the bible. I´m what is sometimes called a renegade, an ex-Christian. I´ve read it.  ;)

Lasse C

Oh, just a footnote: I have not read all the “begat-lists”. You know, the “Solomon begat Rehoboam. Rehoboam begat Abijah, Abijah begat Hobnob, Hobnob begat Mumbletypeg, Mumbletypeg begat Rumplestiltskin, Rumplestiltskin begat Gibberish...” and so on. I skipped those.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wanderer on Nov 1st, 2007 at 12:10pm

axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 2:20am:
i didn't read all that..... but i did get you read the bible (most of it anyway, i think you said all of it) and a whole bunch of dogy books like the book of mormon (the person who came up with that idea got killed in a gun fight because he had so many enimies, so much for a blessed man of god.)


Hmm.. no.. not much sign of an open mind there ;). Why do you regard the book of Mormon that way? Because your Sunday School teacher tells you so? You might gain much from reading such as the Bhagavad Gita ( Sanskrit not obligatory ;) ) and many other texts from faiths other than your own. You have been given a brain, why not use it?

The original topic was the matter of whether people believe that Goliath could have been defeated by David. I think the general sense is that purely on grounds of raw mechanics it was possible to deliver a fatal or near-fatal blow, without the intervention of a supreme being to render the sling somehow more potent. This does not deny the existence of such a being. This may be at variance with the version generally taught in Sunday School - yes! I remember! - where perhaps the teacher implies that the sling would not have that power without 'something extra'. This latter view comes from a general ignorance of the lethality of the sling.

What you are left with is the matter of a boy's courage in the face of an intimidating enemy. His faith and belief come in at this point, and the story is no less powerful IMHO for that. I believe that was the intent of scripture when it was written, when people would surely have been far more aware of the potential of the sling.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Woody on Nov 1st, 2007 at 4:15pm
In my opinion all of the stories of the Bible are true. That is what I believe and that is all we are really debating here, what each of us believe, because neither side can be factually proven or disproven. I believe that God controls all things and it was His will for David to be victorious. Some believe it would have been easy for David to slay Goliath without God being involved and others think it to be impossible with or without God. Whether it occured or not is merely a subjective question. A better question may be: Do you believe the story of David and Goliath occured? Why or why not? Because no one can "prove" it is real or it is not.  I do believe it occured and here is why. I believe it occurred because I believe the Bible. I believe the Bible because I am educated in it as well as the alternatives. "Logical" people discredit the Bible because it is "not possible" but many of them either believe in other equally "impossible" teachings or merely theoretical teachings. I have witnessed (and this is not evidence but understanding) the change in people's lives once they devote themselves and I mean truly devote themselves to Christ and it just so happens I am one of those people. I believe that anything true or worthy stands the test of time. I am not talking about thousands of years as the Bible has but I mean within my own life time. No, I am not and do not claim to be a perfect person, everyone has their faults and there was only one true Christian and that was Jesus. The rest of us only try to be Christians.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm
the bible is the oldest record of history ever, it tells us not to lie, it tells us not to be hypocrites, so if they say all that what point would their be to lie? The bible so far has never been proven rong, most other common belief systems have been or are ridiculios any way. why should the bible be rong? the idea of god has always no matter how far back in history you go, all of man's idea's have faded or lost momentum, but the idea of god has always been their. :)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 3:35am

axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm:
the bible is the oldest record of history ever, it tells us not to lie, it tells us not to be hypocrites, so if they say all that what point would their be to lie? The bible so far has never been proven rong, most other common belief systems have been or are ridiculios any way. why should the bible be rong? the idea of god has always no matter how far back in history you go, all of man's idea's have faded or lost momentum, but the idea of god has always been their. :)


Oh, my goodness...
So because the bible tells us not to lie, this means the bible itself by definition has to be true in every little aspect and detail?  
And as a consequence of this most other beliefs are wrong or at least ridiculous?
Do you seriously and honestly mean that?

I remember what made me turn my back on Christianity. It was people thinking and saying things like that...

Oh, man... I´m out of this discussion. (On the other hand, it was against better judgment I got into it in the first place.)


Lasse C

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by DesertPilot on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 12:21pm

axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm:
the bible is the oldest record of history ever...

Not so.  The Israelites were comparative newcomers on the Middle Eastern scene.  Some Sumerian records date back to the 4th century B.C.E., 3000 years before the bible was written and 2000 years before the Jews, Judea, and Jehovah even existed.  Many Egyptian records are almost as old.  Heck, even the Iliad and the Odyssey are older than the bible, and have at least as good a historical basis.  These all make fascinating reading, particularly if you're interested in the evolution of Western religions, cultures, and legal codes.

No slings in any of them, alas.  But the Greeks and Trojans do throw a lot of rocks at each other in the Iliad ("Uf da!"  BONK!  "Ouch!"), so at least their hearts were in the right place :)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Woody on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 4:03pm
[quote author=Lasse C link=1152877286/225#226 date=1193988951
Oh, my goodness...
So because the bible tells us not to lie, this means the bible itself by definition has to be true in every little aspect and detail?  
And as a consequence of this most other beliefs are wrong or at least ridiculous?
Do you seriously and honestly mean that?

I remember what made me turn my back on Christianity. It was people thinking and saying things like that...

Oh, man... I´m out of this discussion. (On the other hand, it was against better judgment I got into it in the first place.)


Lasse C
[/quote]


IMO it may benefit discussion in the future, if in response to a previous post consideration is paid to whom you are responding. This may dictate tone and even make remarks made on your part more meaningful. The poster you are responding to is a young man and quite possibly less experienced than you in debating. DesertPilot's response in my opinion is more relevant and constructive and if a correction is to be made it should be done so more toward this manner. In response to your declaration that people who make such statements are what made you "turn your back on Christianity". I would suggest that all walks of life have people who make less than calculated statements, you may have not run into them yet. This is only a suggestion and not meant to single this comment out I am sure it happens a lot and was just a thought. I know this can be a passionate subject.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 6:50pm

Lasse C wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 3:35am:

axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm:
the bible is the oldest record of history ever, it tells us not to lie, it tells us not to be hypocrites, so if they say all that what point would their be to lie? The bible so far has never been proven rong, most other common belief systems have been or are ridiculios any way. why should the bible be rong? the idea of god has always no matter how far back in history you go, all of man's idea's have faded or lost momentum, but the idea of god has always been their. :)


Oh, my goodness...
So because the bible tells us not to lie, this means the bible itself by definition has to be true in every little aspect and detail?  
And as a consequence of this most other beliefs are wrong or at least ridiculous?
Do you seriously and honestly mean that?

I remember what made me turn my back on Christianity. It was people thinking and saying things like that...
Oh, man... I´m out of this discussion. (On the other hand, it was against better judgment I got into it in the first place.)


Lasse C


Are you saying that 6,000 years of records are rong? every single other belief system was made by a man who thought it was a good idea, the bible and god have always been their, they weren't written by your average corruptable person, men are flickers in history that we make a big deal of, you'll find that every other religion or belief system except the bible is a mere idea, people come up with stuff and they anounce it as if it's real....... believe what you want i guess, we'll all find out what was the correct belief system when we're dead, i personally can't wait that long.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 7:15pm

DesertPilot wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 12:21pm:

axon50 wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 10:04pm:
the bible is the oldest record of history ever...

Not so.  The Israelites were comparative newcomers on the Middle Eastern scene.  Some Sumerian records date back to the 4th century B.C.E., 3000 years before the bible was written and 2000 years before the Jews, Judea, and Jehovah even existed.  Many Egyptian records are almost as old.  Heck, even the Iliad and the Odyssey are older than the bible, and have at least as good a historical basis.  These all make fascinating reading, particularly if you're interested in the evolution of Western religions, cultures, and legal codes.

No slings in any of them, alas.  But the Greeks and Trojans do throw a lot of rocks at each other in the Iliad ("Uf da!"  BONK!  "Ouch!"), so at least their hearts were in the right place :)


the bible was written about four thousand years ago, and covers about 6,000 years ago, the oldest book that was written from experience was probably about four and a half thousand years old (job), although you'll find that many things in the bible are more acurate then other records, such as the flood, their is a version of the flood in most ancient cultures, but all of them are different, but you'll find that (with all the fossiles all around the world), the global flood is most correct. theirs a little town in the middle east that can track it's hostory all the way back to, i think it's james the disciple, as i have said before abraham apears in muslim history, also the bible is a pretty acurate map of the middle east, the the anchors of pauls shipwrecked ship have been found (they would be the only things that would survive on a wooden ship), i watched a documentary by bob cornuke (he's an archeoligist, not how you spell it) and he went looking for the mount arrerat of the bible, and he found it, it was a cool vid to  :), in my opinion, the more truth something tells, the more you can trust that source of information....... a person who tells lies all the time is likely to tell lies, and visa versa.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 8:30pm
some interesting links concerning the bible (www.answersingenesis.org, www.doveministries.com, www.baseinstitute.org, www.biblegateway.com, bible.com, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/jew, www.greatsite.com/timeline-eng, ww.allaboutthejourney.org/hist, www.ldolphin.org/flood.shtml .

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Lasse C on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 6:05am

Woody wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 4:03pm:
This may dictate tone and even make remarks made on your part more meaningful. The poster you are responding to is a young man and quite possibly less experienced than you in debating.


First of all, it´s really nice of you to act as support troops for Axon50. As you note, he apparently is young and rather naïve. Well, if being young and naïve is a flaw, most people grow out of it in time. (But I suppose he and I should postpone any discussion between us until he has... ;))

When I wrote my reply I was just rather upset (and, I have to say, in my eyes rightfully so) by the deep disrespect he showed towards the billions of people whose beliefs he brushed off as "wrong or ridiculous". I certainly did not mean to belittle him or to show contempt, and if offence was taken, I apologize. None intended.

When I wrote that it was thinking and saying things like that which made me turn my back on Christianity I very nearly adressed Axon50 by writing "people like you" - but that would have been wrong and very unfair. The kind of "teachers, preachers and missionaries" who tell young, easily influenced people like Axon50 that kind of one-eyed intolerant rubbish and to accept it without questioning - they made me turn my back in disgust on Christianity.

One of the few really honest and credible Christians I have met was a PhD in theology, had studied on that famous institute in Dallas, and had even learned to read Ancient Greek in order to read the actual oldest preserved texts from the New Testament without anything getting lost in translation. He had also worked as a missionary in India for many years. (Meaning: We are not talking about an ordinary "thirteen-a-dozen" preacher here, OK?) He was very firm in stating: "If you disrespect or ridicule the faith of others, question your own faith! A faith that is disrespectful to other fellow humans is not truly rooted in The Lord. The Lord had nothing but love and respect for any human being! You may disagree with other people´s faith, but never disrespect it!".

Enough said, I think.

Lasse C

If you think without questioning, you don´t really think at all...

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 8:07pm

Lasse C wrote on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 6:05am:

Woody wrote on Nov 2nd, 2007 at 4:03pm:
This may dictate tone and even make remarks made on your part more meaningful. The poster you are responding to is a young man and quite possibly less experienced than you in debating.


First of all, it´s really nice of you to act as support troops for Axon50. As you note, he apparently is young and rather naïve. Well, if being young and naïve is a flaw, most people grow out of it in time. (But I suppose he and I should postpone any discussion between us until he has... ;))

When I wrote my reply I was just rather upset (and, I have to say, in my eyes rightfully so) by the deep disrespect he showed towards the billions of people whose beliefs he brushed off as "wrong or ridiculous". I certainly did not mean to belittle him or to show contempt, and if offence was taken, I apologize. None intended.

When I wrote that it was thinking and saying things like that which made me turn my back on Christianity I very nearly adressed Axon50 by writing "people like you" - but that would have been wrong and very unfair. The kind of "teachers, preachers and missionaries" who tell young, easily influenced people like Axon50 that kind of one-eyed intolerant rubbish and to accept it without questioning - they made me turn my back in disgust on Christianity.

One of the few really honest and credible Christians I have met was a PhD in theology, had studied on that famous institute in Dallas, and had even learned to read Ancient Greek in order to read the actual oldest preserved texts from the New Testament without anything getting lost in translation. He had also worked as a missionary in India for many years. (Meaning: We are not talking about an ordinary "thirteen-a-dozen" preacher here, OK?) He was very firm in stating: "If you disrespect or ridicule the faith of others, question your own faith! A faith that is disrespectful to other fellow humans is not truly rooted in The Lord. The Lord had nothing but love and respect for any human being! You may disagree with other people´s faith, but never disrespect it!".

Enough said, I think.

Lasse C

If you think without questioning, you don´t really think at all...


i read that....... oh well like i said, we'll all know what the correct way of thinking is when we die...... nice thought i guess :). (and what makes you say the new testament is greek?) we don't question christianity because everyone else does it for us and we come up with answers, and we don't have any reason to question it, because nobody's ever proven it rong. you can try but all you did was ask if i can prove it right.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by OrangeDuck on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 10:43pm

axon50 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 8:07pm:
because nobody's ever proven it rong. you can try but all you did was ask if i can prove it right.


Well obviously no christian with a mindset like yours will accept the proposal that christianity is wrong, because if you believe the biblfe word for word it says that you have to believe the bible. Even if definitive evidence was provided on the other side, you would continue to believe what you do. Some call this ignorance, some call it faith, it all depends on what you believe.

However, the Bible has proved hypocritical on many cases. For example, the Bible says that incest is a sin, however the children of Adam and Eve supposedly committed incest, and one could take it to mean all people are related and terefore commit incest. It claims evolution does not exist, but in a world where genes do not exist and change, how do people of different races appear?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by DesertPilot on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 11:53pm

axon50 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2007 at 8:07pm:
...and what makes you say the new testament is greek?

But... but... it IS Greek!  Everybody knows that!  The New Testament in the King James Bible was translated from the original Greek texts.  Don't make fun of my ancestors!  We created most of your religion at the Council of Nicea, back in 325 C.E.!  If it wasn't for us, you might all be worshiping Mithra :)

This raises an important question: why are so many car companies named after gods of the West?  There's Mazda, named after the god of the Zoroastrians and Mithraists, there's Chrysler, named after You-Know-Who, there's even Saturn and Mercury.  Why isn't there a company named Buddhiac?  Or Shivarolet?  Or Brahman Motor Works?  Does this prove the superiority of Western religion over its Eastern competitors?  If so, then what god is Toyota named after?  Judging from their market share, this would seem to be the most powerful god of all...

BTW, no offense is intended to anyone in what I recognize is an important and heartfelt debate.  It's just that after watching 1600 years of religious warfare between different believers in the same god, we Greeks find it very difficult to take these things seriously anymore.  We know, from centuries of experience, that too much devotion can only lead to tears.  I respect your sincerity and I promise not to make any more posts to this particular thread.  Best wishes to you all, I thank the Moderators for their forbearance, and I hope to go slinging with you someday!

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by aussieslinger on Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:22am
Guys, I really think you should all just agree to disagree. Arguments about religion are particularly pointless because they are almost never able to be resolved by reasoned persuasion as interpretations can vary enormously. For example the Bible does not actually say that "evolution does not exist". What it does say is that animals reproduce, "after their own kind". Now some have taken that to mean that absolutely no variation is possible from generation to generation. However, that is their interpretation, which may or may not be correct, based on just four words, which were probably never intended to be submitted to that degree of scrutiny.

Another problem is that the Bible "rules" can vary and be modified from time to time. The example given is that Adam and Eve's children committed "incest" when marrying each other. But the prohibitions against marrying close family were not introduced until Moses' time. Even Abraham, called the father of the faithful, married his half-sister and was in no way criticized for it. Many other incidental rules detailed in the Law of Moses are no longer applicable as is explained in Acts 15 and other places.

Christians need to get to the core issue of Christ's commandments, which is showing the love of Christ to each other and the rest of the world instead of bickering about incidentals and bringing Christianity itself into disrepute. It is a terrible indictment on Christians if people "turn their back on Christianity" because our actions are so contrary to the will of the One whom we allegedly serve.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by OrangeDuck on Nov 4th, 2007 at 1:43am

Aussie wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:22am:
Christians need to get to the core issue of Christ's commandments, which is showing the love of Christ to each other and the rest of the world instead of bickering about incidentals and bringing Christianity itself into disrepute. It is a terrible indictment on Christians if people "turn their back on Christianity" because our actions are so contrary to the will of the One whom we allegedly serve.


I agree with you 100% on that one, Aussie.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Nov 4th, 2007 at 3:23am

Aussie wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 12:22am:
Guys, I really think you should all just agree to disagree. Arguments about religion are particularly pointless because they are almost never able to be resolved by reasoned persuasion as interpretations can vary enormously. For example the Bible does not actually say that "evolution does not exist". What it does say is that animals reproduce, "after their own kind". Now some have taken that to mean that absolutely no variation is possible from generation to generation. However, that is their interpretation, which may or may not be correct, based on just four words, which were probably never intended to be submitted to that degree of scrutiny.

Another problem is that the Bible "rules" can vary and be modified from time to time. The example given is that Adam and Eve's children committed "incest" when marrying each other. But the prohibitions against marrying close family were not introduced until Moses' time. Even Abraham, called the father of the faithful, married his half-sister and was in no way criticized for it. Many other incidental rules detailed in the Law of Moses are no longer applicable as is explained in Acts 15 and other places.

Christians need to get to the core issue of Christ's commandments, which is showing the love of Christ to each other and the rest of the world instead of bickering about incidentals and bringing Christianity itself into disrepute. It is a terrible indictment on Christians if people "turn their back on Christianity" because our actions are so contrary to the will of the One whom we allegedly serve.


very well, i disagree with everyone who thinks that most of the authors of the bible are lyers (i very recently read something like what you said, in a book.) sorry about the arguement but i'm not one to sit back in a biblical argeument or hostorical argeument that i know something about :). But i would like to point this out before i sighn of this arguement (hopefully), if the bible is mostly a lie, then why are their so many sucessfull christian archeoligists, doctors, scientists, ect ect (those are the only scientific carrers that i can think of with something to do with science that more than one person that I know of and is an extrimely sucessfull christian, or follows the bible as a guide.)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dravonk on Nov 4th, 2007 at 7:11am

axon50 wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 3:23am:
very well, i disagree with everyone who thinks that most of the authors of the bible are lyers

Did anyone call them lyers? I don't think so. Just because the stories are not scientifically correct to the last word does not mean that their authors "lied". They just wanted to share their wisdom as far as they knew. But as time goes on, we learn more and more (ok, sometimes we also forget). I don't think most of them even intended to write scientific texts. When you write a rough story, a picture that is meant to simplify a more complex reality, do you lie? I don't think so. But you should not make the mistake to mix the simplification with the reality.

And thanks to AussieSlinger for his words of wisdom!

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by axon50 on Nov 4th, 2007 at 9:21pm

Dravonk wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 7:11am:

axon50 wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 3:23am:
very well, i disagree with everyone who thinks that most of the authors of the bible are lyers

Did anyone call them lyers? I don't think so. Just because the stories are not scientifically correct to the last word does not mean that their authors "lied". They just wanted to share their wisdom as far as they knew. But as time goes on, we learn more and more (ok, sometimes we also forget). I don't think most of them even intended to write scientific texts. When you write a rough story, a picture that is meant to simplify a more complex reality, do you lie? I don't think so. But you should not make the mistake to mix the simplification with the reality.

And thanks to AussieSlinger for his words of wisdom!

nobody called them liers directly, but claiming that they deliberately wrote what they didn't know is just about the same, so i just had to read between the lines. The bible is not fully scientificy correct, i know, but god made the entire world and as science is part of it he obviously made it and has the means to manipulate and controll it, i belive god made science on the first day because he made time and light on that day, some language value may have been lost in translation, or because the ancient peoples had very little idea of science, god simply did not mention it because they would find it complicating.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Nakki on Jan 7th, 2008 at 4:22pm
Maybe they weren't lying. They just told the truth of that time. They didn't know any better so they explained things that they dont understand by god and miracles.

An example: In ancient times it was considered miraclous that some temples attracted lightning bolts. Temples that attracted more lightning were considered more "blessed" or nearer to god. Those temples became popular ofcourse. When temple is popular it gets more donations and so fort. So those people recorded that the temple was divinely blessed because they didn't know about electricity. Studies have shown that those "blessed" temples were located on high ground and they some times had some sort of attractor to lightning. Big metallic pole on top of the temple for example.

When reading the Bible you have to understand how the society worked on that time and how much they knew about their world around them. You really can't put all the things in the Bible on modern society. There's a part in a New Testament that allows you to kill you servant if he doesn't obey you. Is that then absolute right? There are many parts where the New Testament is totally different about some things than the Old Testament. If you're christian you follow the New Testament. If you're jewish you follow the Old Testament. To me Bible gives good guide lines to life in some cases. Most of the Western civilizations laws can be found in some way from the Bible. But the modern day laws have been modificated to our way of thinking and to our societies. Every country (and human too) has it's own way to read the law and adjust it to the situation. Sometimes there are event's where following the law might just be the worst option. Then you just have to adjust to the situation.
Everyone have been granted with brains and I suggest to use them.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Monkeywjcr on Mar 15th, 2008 at 8:14pm
Yes

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wannabeslinger on Jun 24th, 2008 at 10:40pm
I do not doubt at all that It was a real event. when looking at it from a historical standpoint (facts outside the bible) they're was without a doubt an actual king David of Israel. Goliath has only been found a few times outside of the bible such as a piece of pottery with his name on it..which could be see as support for him being a real person.. also their are many conditions ect.. that make it possible to reach 9 feet tall.. the current world's tallest person is 8 feet 5.5 inches.. though many translations of texts have errors.. some say he was 8 feet tall, 9 feet tall, 10 feet tall...anything over 7ft is a giant to them

anyone who is considered a Giant is quite a formidable opponent.. andre the Giant was 7'4 500 lbs... a person who is 5'4ish probably 160 lbs is nothing..its like an adult fighting a 6 year old. He was very impressive..he could down 50 beers and a bottle of jack Daniels and drive all his bodies home.. you have to respect that ability lol..


I really hate debates about the Bible.. "mans thoughts are not gods thoughts" I'm very happy being Christian and know God is with me regardless of what other people want to feel and believe.. go ahead its fine with me..im not going to force anything on another person and would appreciate people not trying to force beliefs on me..and no Christianity is not and never will be a "crutch".. just because you (people who call it a crutch) are unhappy with what your life is doesnt justify your dislike for people who are happy.

I will say this how can humans live by logic when humans are illogical. why are we directed by our emotions to do things that are not in what logic would say is our best interest

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Nakki on Jul 1st, 2008 at 6:13am
Goliath wasn't really a giant. He was a relly tall man at that ages standards. The Dead Sea Scrolls say that he was little over 2 meters tall (that's about 6'7"). Average height of males in those days was about 165cm-170cm (5'5") so man over 180cm (6') was already big man. Dead Sea Scroll were written about 100CE. The size of Goliath must have grown because people grow. Nowadays man who is 6'5" tall ain't a giant but he is a relly tall man.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jul 12th, 2008 at 2:46pm


http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html


http://s8int.com/giants1.html



Quote:
Goliath wasn't really a giant.



Yeah, and there's no such thing as 'hobbits' either......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY


http://www.theage.com.au/news/Science/Skeletons-in-the-cupboard/2005/03/18/1111086008084.html


TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dale on Jul 12th, 2008 at 8:22pm
Nakki,

"Giant" is one of those words that have to be carefully defined.  The word means different things to different people.  My own idea of what a giant is, was formed from reading fairy tales when I was a child.  "Fifty Famous Fairy Tales" was the title of the volume, and the giants mentioned therein were truly colossal: human in form, but thirty feet or more in height, able to pick up and carry a normal man in one hand.  On the other hand, in modern medicine, someone as little as seven feet in height may be regarded as a giant; but then, doctors are looking not just at the height, but at hormonal abnormalities (overproduction of growth hormone, for instance).

What was meant in the Bible is less clear to me.  I have not found, so far, any measure of the usual height of people.  I do know that lengths were measured in cubits, which is an anthropocentric measure, being the distance from one's elbow to the tips of one's outstretched fingers.  It is commonly understood to be about 18 inches these days.  I can reason from current measurements as follows: if a cubit be the modern 18 inches, then the normal range of heights (five feet and some inches to six feet) would be three-and-a-half to four cubits.  If people were shorter a few thousand years ago, then likewise would their cubits (measured by their own arms) be shorter.  So three-and-a-half to four cubits remains a decent educated guess about how tall people were.

Now, it is recorded that Goliath stood six cubits and a span (or six-and-a-half cubits) in height.  So, Goliath would be half again as tall, to almost twice as tall, as most people around him.  By way of comparison, there are professional basketball players today that are half again as tall as some of us.

The weight of his armor and his weapons is also recorded.  It is apparent that Goliath was not just a very tall man, he was BIG.  He had thickness of body, arms, and legs in proportion to his height.  He would have to be quite strong to wield his weapons.

Certainly Goliath was not one of my fairy-tale giants.  But he was much larger than normal men, enough so perhaps to warrant being called a giant and not just a very big man.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by HurlinThom on Jul 13th, 2008 at 12:31am

Nakki wrote on Jul 1st, 2008 at 6:13am:
The Dead Sea Scrolls say that he was little over 2 meters tall (that's about 6'7").  


The Dead Sea scrolls date from much later than the time of David, so they may not be too accurate on Goliath's height. And I doubt that they say "two meters", as the metric system was far into the future. It would be interesting if there was a Judaean or Roman measurement that was precisely one meter. Maybe he was 4 cubits tall, but cubits might vary in size from culture to culture.

How would they get his height, anyhow? Ask the Philistines? Didn't the Philistines recover the body (minus head) for burial?  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by jaxslinger on Jul 13th, 2008 at 10:09am
Search results show the cubit to be between 18" and 22", so I think that Dale is accurate in saying the length of ones forearm is a cubit...Six cubits and a span.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by jaxslinger on Jul 13th, 2008 at 10:11am
Oh,and the bible is a history book.It was compiled by the hand of God.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by oldavid on Jul 14th, 2008 at 9:55am
  I think it's not that unbelievable, disregarding the fact whether the Bible is true or not (I'm a Christian, so I regard it as a History book and God's Word). Aren't there people out there who trained for years as a slinger and can sling pretty well? A forehead won't be a super challenging target for a slinger like David, because if he was a shepherd he would've been slinging since he was a child, probably trained in his art by his father or other shepherd friends. If you don't believe it, then you can just stick a piece of cardboard the size of your forehead, stick it to a 8-9ft tall stick, and try shooting it once a day. If you hit it, this story (not meaning the imagined story-book stories, but history-story) can be possible. Right?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Nakki on Jul 14th, 2008 at 4:06pm
Maybe I jused the word giant in a wrong way, but Goliath is "marketed" many times as a giant (here in Finland anyway). People mix this with their fairy tale giant and all of a suden Goliath is 10 meter's tall. Tried to correct that false understanding in someway. Obviosly got it little wrong  :-/

I just mean that his height was little over 2 meters if it would have been converted in to metric system from the system that Judaeans and Romans used. I didn't mean litterally that it said so in the Scrolls. Sorry for the mishap.  :-[(Metric system was found in Napoleon's time by the way. One of his modernizations in matter of fact.)

The Dead Sea scrolls were written nearer the event than nowadays Bibles so the Scrolls are probaply little more accurate than modern Bibles. Logic, eh?
When you read Bible you always have to realise it was primaly written as religious book, the historical parts are in a "siderole" so to say. Some of it's parts are real historical event's, but religion is always on the background.
The first books that were counted as history books were the one that hadn't any religous or divine in them. This is a fact that most of the historains agree (I have been teached in this way). So Gilgamesh, Coran, Bible, Ilias and Odyesseia aren't really history books (no mean to mock them as books).

I believe that David could have slain Goliath. Not sure did it happen thought. I need some more sources than the Bible by itself. Book that were written primaly as history books.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TechStuf on Jul 14th, 2008 at 4:38pm


Quote:
I believe that David could have slain Goliath.



Many also believe that Yahshua, Jesus Christ, could have died for all man's sins.  


There is a great and powerful difference between knowing what could be and what is, truth.  Ultimately, that difference is the large chasm between finite and forever.  


Forgiven and forgotten.


The prophecies of the Holy Bible are being borne out the world over, and soon, what IS will take a commanding precedence over what could be and what could have been.


http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/booklets/tw-bk.cgi?category=Booklets1&item=1167942458



Blessings from Yahweh in Yahshau, Jesus Christ be upon us,



TS

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by HurlinThom on Jul 14th, 2008 at 5:41pm

Nakki wrote on Jul 14th, 2008 at 4:06pm:
I just mean that his height was little over 2 meters if it would have been converted in to metric system from the system that Judaeans and Romans used. I didn't mean litterally that it said so in the Scrolls. Sorry for the mishap.  :-[(Metric system was found in Napoleon's time by the way. One of his modernizations in matter of fact.)

--I haven't read the Dead Sea Scrolls. No idea what they may have said about Goliath's height. Provided he did exist he would have been a big guy, and was slain by the future king of Israel.

The Dead Sea scrolls were written nearer the event than nowadays Bibles so the Scrolls are probaply little more accurate than modern Bibles. Logic, eh?

--Most likely correct. Less chance for errors in translation.

The first books that were counted as history books were the one that hadn't any religous or divine in them. This is a fact that most of the historains agree (I have been teached in this way). So Gilgamesh, Coran, Bible, Ilias and Odyesseia aren't really history books (no mean to mock them as books).

--Here in the USA there are lots of people who believe in the literal truth of the Bible. As in some other countries lots of people believe the Koran is the literal truth. Obviously they can't both be right.

I believe that David could have slain Goliath. Not sure did it happen thought. I need some more sources than the Bible by itself. Book that were written primaly as history books.

--Don't think there were books written as history in that period. Mostly writings saying our side (or our king) is great and the other guys are a crew of depraved cowards and heretics.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by lobohunter on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 6:59pm
just over 2 meters hey wait a moment
no wonder i feel the need to always carry a sling for self defence lol ;D

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Dr.Q on Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:38pm
the biblical Gath and traditional home of Goliath, has been the subject of extensive excavatios. It was the largest city of philistea. Goliath and his other 4 giant brothers were given birth by Orpha. This is why David took 4 stones to the goliath battle; Goliath was a very preminent subject having won many battles like the one hi lost to David.
The Historiy of King David in history can not be hidden in no way shape or form.
After all the scavations and specially the goliath armor wich was greek style and not phlistine tells us about how known this goliath was.
The history defenitly has to be real.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by peacefuljeffrey on Oct 3rd, 2008 at 1:15am

nightweave wrote on Jul 14th, 2006 at 10:21am:
loh_kah_hoe,

Well now that depends on several things.
Are you christian?
Do you believe the bible is a factual account?
And your relgious out look.

Now being rasied a christian, but now not so much a believer any more. I can say honestly I don't know but it is a great story.


On that note, I find it funny when biblical stories become the focus of an "is it 'true' " discussion.  The fact is, neither side will be able to prove yes or no!  It's a book, but who can prove whether any of it is any more than a fictional account?  Like a novel.  

On the other hand, when someone reads a book about, say, the founding fathers of the United States of America, people can't really look around at each other and say, "So, did that really happen?"  :-?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by peacefuljeffrey on Oct 3rd, 2008 at 1:20am

Yahweh Bless you in Yeshua wrote on Jul 18th, 2006 at 2:41pm:
If you'll read the information at the link above, you'll find that mention of the "House of David" is a matter of archaeological record.  Such writing carries dynastic indices which, when coupled with other finds, shows conclusively that such an account as David & Goliath was well within the realm of possibility.  


One can look at the scenario and determine on its face that it is "within the realm of possibility.

The question, as I understood it, seemed to be asking, "DID it happen?"  Not "COULD it have happened?"

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by peacefuljeffrey on Oct 3rd, 2008 at 1:30am

wannabeslinger wrote on Jun 24th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
I I I will say this how can humans live by logic when humans are illogical. why are we directed by our emotions to do things that are not in what logic would say is our best interest



Lack of training and discipline.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by StaffSlinger on Oct 3rd, 2008 at 10:17am
Did the events related in the Christian Bible actually happen?  We simply do not know.  We have only that one source for the story (as far as I know).  There is no supporting evidence from other sources; no archeological evidence.  No parallel stories.  Nada.  Zip.  Zilch.  Granted it's a great story.  But it is one, unsubstantiated story.  Show me any piece of contemporary evidence that corroborates the story.

Could it have happened?  Certainly.

We need to realize that Slinging.org has an international membership representing every major faith on the planet (and undoubtedly several minor faiths as well).  Trying to promote Christian, Muslim, Mormon, Hindu, Jewish or other beliefs over another is NOT what this forum is about.  Leave the religious dogmatism at home, please.

Added by Edit.  There is only one piece of recent (1993) archeological evidence which seems to indicate that "King David" existed in anything other than some stories.  A piece of a stele was discovered which 'appears' to contain the name David.  There is no proof that the inscription refers to the Biblical person.

"The Tel Dan Stele, found at Tel Dan in Israel in 1993/1994, is a fragment (in three sections) of an Aramaic inscription on basalt, which appears to be from a stele erected for Ben-Hadad of the Aramaean nation, an enemy of the kingdom of Israel. The inscription has been dated between the 7th and 9th centuries BCE.
Very little of the inscription remains, but the excitement it has generated by those interested in Biblical archaeology is concentrated on the letters 'ביתדוד' which is identical to the Hebrew for "House of David." If the reading is correct, it is the first time that the name "David" has been found in any archaeological site.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wanderer on Oct 3rd, 2008 at 11:19am

StaffSlinger wrote on Oct 3rd, 2008 at 10:17am:
We need to realize that Slinging.org has an international membership representing every major faith on the planet (and undoubtedly several minor faiths as well).  Trying to promote Christian, Muslim, Mormon, Hindu, Jewish or other beliefs over another is NOT what this forum is about.  Leave the religious dogmatism at home, please.

That's a  very important point.

It's a difficult balance because there is also a history of considerable tolerance to people posting rather provocative stuff here, and the fact that some quite enlightening discussion has followed is a great plus.

I strongly agree that people should bear in mind the membership's diversity of beliefs (and nationalities) in their posts. This is simply a matter IMHO of respect for others. They might also consider the impression that their posts have on the casual browser, who may take the views as representative of their country of origin.

I can't say that it produces a welcoming atmosphere to read some of the extremely dogmatic pronouncements on religious, and some other, matters. Even those who adhere to these views should surely recognise that others are capable of holding different ones without being fools - or needing to be 'saved'? The trouble is, so many of these discussions become so heated that many of us stay out of the discussion rather than risking getting savaged for arguing against the storm.

It has to be said that in national terms, the only people who forget that this is an international forum are (some) of those in the United States. So, do you want this forum to be another confirmation of the view of substantial numbers of people elsewhere in the world that Americans act as if the rest of the world doesn't matter?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by peacefuljeffrey on Oct 3rd, 2009 at 8:58pm

nightweave wrote on Jul 14th, 2006 at 10:21am:
loh_kah_hoe,

Well now that depends on several things.
Are you christian?
Do you believe the bible is a factual account?
And your relgious out look.

Now being rasied a christian, but now not so much a believer any more. I can say honestly I don't know but it is a great story.

Weather it is true or not, all I can say is all myths and ledgens haves some true too them.

Beyond that I don't have a time machine so I can not confirm.

nightweave


Well said.  (Well, except for the typos... ;))

I started a thread about this last night not knowing that this one exists.  Now I have 18 pages of reading-up to do...

For the record, I am a non-believer (or you could say "a believer in other things, but not religion")--pretty much because I am a disliker of illogic.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TN.Frank on Oct 3rd, 2009 at 10:24pm
I don't see what the big deal is. If you don't belive it then that's fine with me, I have no problem with it but for those of us who do believe it it's simply a point of FAITH for us and I don't see why you'd want to disprove it or prove it.  People have different faiths and it even takes faith to not believe in something.  
I believe the account of David and Goliath is a real, historical account, same as Alexander the Great or Julius Cesar were historical accounts.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Aussie on Oct 3rd, 2009 at 10:30pm
I see that C-A had the good sense to lock the other thread. Lets not go on for another 18 pages on this one and agree to disagree. Logic like beauty is very much in the eye or brain of the beholder.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Fëanor on Oct 8th, 2009 at 10:03am
Beauty is an opinion, logic is not.
But then no human can be logical since it requires one to be objective, which we all know no one is.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by TN.Frank on Oct 8th, 2009 at 10:15am
Actually, an ET shot Goliath in the head with a space gun from the grassy nole just to the right of where David was standing. ;D

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Rat Man on Oct 26th, 2009 at 9:09pm
I do have a time portal.  The story is basically true, but Goliath was 6'5" and every one else was 4'6".  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Hanbaal on Nov 1st, 2009 at 10:01am
Not sure if anyone has mentioned or not within these 18 pages thar David did not kill goliath with a sling?
I think it was his (brothers?) sword.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by timann on Nov 1st, 2009 at 10:29am
I seem to remember it has been mentioned before.  To me it seems a little unimportant,really.  I mean, appearently David uses his sling for what it is worth,  Goliath fall, David is obviously not interested in Goliaths pulse, heart rate, erratic eye movement, skull fracture or whatever.  He simply pulls out Goliaths sword and cut his head off.  Mission accompliched.
timann

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wanderer on Nov 1st, 2009 at 11:18am

Hanbaal wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 10:01am:
Not sure if anyone has mentioned or not within these 18 pages thar David did not kill goliath with a sling?
I think it was his (brothers?) sword.

It has certainly come up either in this thread or one of the other related threads over the past few years.

Seems to depend on whether Goliath was killed by the stone or not, on which it appears the texts are unclear. I thought it was generally understood to be Goliath's sword that was used, but whether this was 'cause of death' is another matter.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Fundibularius on Nov 1st, 2009 at 2:44pm
Why not look at the text? (1 Sam 17, 40 ff):

40 He took his stick in his hand, selected five smooth stones from the river bed and put them in his shepherd's bag, in his pouch; then, sling in hand, he walked towards the Philistine.  
[...]
48 No sooner had the Philistine started forward to confront David than David darted out of the lines and ran to meet the Philistine.  
49 Putting his hand in his bag, he took out a stone, slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead; the stone penetrated his forehead and he fell face downwards on the ground.  
50 Thus David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; he hit the Philistine and killed him, though he had no sword in his hand.  
51 David ran and stood over the Philistine, seized his sword, pulled it from the scabbard, despatched him and cut off his head
. When the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they fled.  

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wanderer on Nov 1st, 2009 at 4:37pm

Fundibularius wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 2:44pm:
Why not look at the text? (1 Sam 17, 40 ff):

Yes. Good idea ;)

However I recall that there was scholarly debate about whether Goliath was even hit in the head rather than the knee (!). This is mentioned in passing in the early pages (at least) of this thread.

In that case the sling-stone would hardly have been the cause of death. The presumption was that translations had rather glossed over the detail of the original text.

I have no idea what the current consensus regarding that is. :(

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by slingbadger on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:09pm
Goliath certainly could have been knocked out by a sling. If he was laying there, no moving, he would seem dead.
 

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Aussie on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:32pm
AFAIK there is no account of this event that doesn't get its origin from the Biblical one, so refer to it.

The passage quoted above is fairly specific. The stone penetrated the skull and Goliath received a mortal wound. David decapitated him with his own sword but even if was technically still alive the decaptation was not required to cause death. Decapitating fallen enemies and displaying their heads was quite common.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by wanderer on Nov 1st, 2009 at 6:13pm

Aussie wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:32pm:
AFAIK there is no account of this event that doesn't get its origin from the Biblical one, so refer to it.

The passage quoted above is fairly specific. The stone penetrated the skull and Goliath received a mortal wound. David decapitated him with his own sword but even if was technically still alive the decaptation was not required to cause death. Decapitating fallen enemies and displaying their heads was quite common.

The discussion I mentioned rested on the argument that Hebrew words for "forehead" and "knee" are closely related, and on, if I understand the paper (not certain!) a change in the inflection of the noun between an earlier text and later ones. Also that in most (though not all) cases the armor of the Philistines is shown as entirely covering the forehead.

The author of the paper remarks that the currently held translation meaning "forehead" was puzzled over by Jewish scholars in Medieval times.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Aussie on Nov 1st, 2009 at 9:49pm
Greetings Wanderer,

Interesting! Do you have the source? I'll go and read the text again with that in mind to see if it "flows". However if it was a deliberate shot it would be a smaller target than his head. Would you fall forward on your face after being hit in the knee? Very painful of course but a tough warrior may not be fully incapacitated by such an injury.

Regards,

Aussie.


PS. Just re-read the text and the knee injury doesn't sound very likely based on the English translation.

It says the stone, "sank in"; consistent with a head injury, cracking the skull and penetrating the soft brain inside, but would you say that about hitting the knee? Broke, smashed or crushed seem more likely.

Verse 50 specifically says David prevailed without a sword in his hand, ie. Goliath was dead or as good as dead, from the sling shot alone. Again the knee injury doesn't seem consistent.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Fundibularius on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 3:53am

Aussie wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:32pm:
The passage quoted above is fairly specific. The stone penetrated the skull and Goliath received a mortal wound. David decapitated him with his own sword but even if was technically still alive the decaptation was not required to cause death. Decapitating fallen enemies and displaying their heads was quite common.


Furthermore, David had promised to do so in the rhetorical duel in the passage I had left out above:

41 The Philistine, preceded by his shield-bearer, came nearer and nearer to David.  
42 When the Philistine looked David up and down, what he saw filled him with scorn, because David was only a lad, with ruddy cheeks and an attractive appearance.  
43 The Philistine said to David, 'Am I a dog for you to come after me with sticks?' And the Philistine cursed David by his gods.  
44 The Philistine said to David, 'Come over here and I will give your flesh to the birds of the air and the wild beasts!'  
45 David retorted to the Philistine, 'You come to me with sword, spear and scimitar, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh Sabaoth, God of the armies of Israel, whom you have challenged.  
46 Today, Yahweh will deliver you into my hand; I shall kill you, I shall cut off your head; today, I shall give your corpse and the corpses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air and the wild beasts, so that the whole world may know that there is a God in Israel,  
47 and this whole assembly know that Yahweh does not give victory by means of sword and spear -- for Yahweh is lord of the battle and he will deliver you into our power.'  

It was surely Goliath´s sword wich was used for the decapitation, as David went into the duel only with his staff and his sling. This is stressed several times: once in verse 40, then in verse 43, and, before the whole description, in these verses:

38 Saul dressed David in his own armour; he put a bronze helmet on his head, dressed him in a breastplate  
39 and buckled his own sword over David's armour. David tried to walk but, not being used to them, said to Saul, 'I cannot walk in these; I am not used to them.' So they took them off again.  


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Fundibularius on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 5:47am
As for the words for "kneecap" and "forehead" in Hebrew, I think Shimshon Hagibor can tell us more.

Though I agree with Aussie that "kneecap" wouldn´t make much sense in the whole context.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Rockman on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 6:06pm
It seems that to the question: Did the battle between David and Goliath really happened?  there´s just no way of knowing.
But to the question: Can a slingshot to the head kill a really big man in armor? All of us who have been slinging for a while, know that the answer is yes.

It´s unlikely we´ll reach consensus to whether the event happened or not. Killing a man with a sling, for sure.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Aussie on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 4:49am

Rockman wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 6:06pm:
It seems that to the question: Did the battle between David and Goliath really happened?  there´s just no way of knowing.
But to the question: Can a slingshot to the head kill a really big man in armor? All of us who have been slinging for a while, know that the answer is yes.

It´s unlikely we´ll reach consensus to whether the event happened or not. Killing a man with a sling, for sure.


I fully agree.

Many people don't believe the story ultimately because they choose not to. Others like myself are biased in favour, and I admit it is a bias. However the story is in itself quite plausible and is not something that can only be explained in terms of a miracle, it definitely could have happened.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Rockman on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 5:14pm
Speaking of which, anyone knows the distance of the opponents at the begibning of a traditional duel like this?
The Baleric slinger demo of D&G was a 15 meter shot. Does anyone know this for a fact? Or is it an educated guess?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by funda_iucunda on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 6:32pm
As David and Goliath shouted at each other immediately before the shot they have been within a distance that allowed to understand what the other said. I estimate this being about 30 m, maximum 50 m.  

funda iucunda

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by timann on Nov 4th, 2009 at 12:01pm
Remember that after the shouting match Goliath begins to approach David, then David runs toward Goliath, and then suddenly use his sling.  
timann

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Fundibularius on Nov 4th, 2009 at 1:23pm
According to the report in 1 Sam 17, they may have started the rhetorical duel from the opposing slopes of a valley, as such was the space between their two armies:

"1 The Philistines mustered their troops for war; they assembled at Socoh in Judah and pitched camp between Socoh and Azekah, in Ephes-Dammim.  
2 Saul and the Israelites also mustered, pitching camp in the Valley of the Terebinth, and drew up their battle-line opposite the Philistines.  
3 The Philistines occupied the high ground on one side and the Israelites occupied the high ground on the other side, with the valley between them.  
4 A champion stepped out from the Philistine ranks; his name was Goliath, from Gath; [...]
8 Taking position in front of the Israelite lines, he shouted: ..."

This would mean that they both had to run downhill in order to meet at the bottom of the valley.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Thearos on Nov 4th, 2009 at 8:09pm
"...and the Stone Sank into His Forehead". A Note on 1 Samuel XVII 49
Ariella Deem
Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 28, Fasc. 3 (Jul., 1978), pp. 349-351

-- argues that the word is "greave" and not forehead
dtc_94_tif.gif (63 KB | )

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by mrboss on Nov 4th, 2009 at 10:14pm
C'mon why wouldnt he just aim for his head? If hes good enough to shoot at his moving legs, then surely he'd be able to aim at his head. I dont know why people cant accept this story as it is. I believe its true. But some people just want to prove the story to be fake. And other people cant handle the fact that a sling projectile will inevitably penetrate into someones head (in the hands of a decent slinger), those people should just drop that thought now and acknowledge that fact. There is SO much proof out there.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Aussie on Nov 5th, 2009 at 12:05am
Holy mackerel! A quote from mrboss that I fully agree with!

However the argument is that helmets like Goliath would have worn covered the entire forehad so it would not have been exposed. Also there is some similarity between the words for forehad and the greaves that protected the lower leg except for the knee. Supposedly if hit in the forehead Goliath should have fallen backwards. It's a possible explanation but doesn't sound all that likely.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Thearos on Nov 5th, 2009 at 4:58am
To be honest, I don't think the argument works at all (greaves are there precisely to protect shin and knee, and they fit onto the kneecap. But someone earlier raised the point, so I thought I'd give the reference.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by timann on Nov 5th, 2009 at 3:25pm
A little hint, as must of us use the Bible for our scientific D&G study, I have found that the details is somewhat different in each translation.  I got 4 Norwegian Bibles available, the oldest from 1860, and will say that if you read ONE bible and declare you got the one and only truth, you may be a little mistaken.

A little tidbit, I understand that David`s father, Isai, had got the name Jesse in the English translations.  The English translators probably thought the names should be more familiar than some others.  
timann

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Fundibularius on Nov 5th, 2009 at 4:54pm
I used the New Jerusalem Bible translation from 1985.


Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by David Morningstar on Nov 5th, 2009 at 6:53pm

I'm guessing Shimshon is our expert here, not needing it translated or anything ;)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Fundibularius on Nov 6th, 2009 at 4:27am

Fundibularius wrote on Nov 5th, 2009 at 4:54pm:
I used the New Jerusalem Bible translation from 1985.


Oops, sorry: http://www.catholic.org/bible/

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by timann on Nov 6th, 2009 at 11:22am
I did a little check of my bibles.  They are from 1840, 1922, and two different translations from 1985.
It is interesting to follow the small differences in the details.

This is not odd, because;

There is always translation discussions around here, as: should the new one be a smell like burning sulfur-kind of book, or should it be a; feel-good, where all the #shall not# stuff and hell are gone, and everyone is included, no questions asked-kind of book.

timann

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Aussie on Nov 6th, 2009 at 10:59pm
Guys,

I just rechecked the Biblical account and the details of the helmet are not given. I would like to ask the historians amongst us, the pictures that show Philistine and other warriors with helmets that cover the forehead and bridge of the nose, when are they dated from? Could it be that helmets were modified to cover the forehead specifically as a result of the DvG encounter once word got around about how accurate these Israelite slingers were?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Thearos on Nov 6th, 2009 at 11:14pm
Not sure what the article referred to. Two possible sources: the representations of "Sea People" in Egyptian reliefs, the Assyrian helmets in Neo-Assyrian art. To be honest, none of the helmets on these actually protect the forehead, let alone the bridge of the nose.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Thearos on Nov 6th, 2009 at 11:18pm
Here are the references from Deem's article. Yep, the Egyptian reliefs there. OK, here's an image of the feather topped "Sea People" helmet:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199503/who.were.the.sea.people..htm

Does it cover the forehead ?
dtc_95_tif.gif (50 KB | )

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by RS on Jan 28th, 2018 at 4:34pm
uh yeah yall  ....it is true and even more so tells us a secret for warfare.  but you have to read the apocrypha to catch it.   it has something to do with the parched corn david had and how he prepared it with the stones he took from the river and goliath's helmet...you can search it out, it is not hard to find.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by balearic-sling on Jun 1st, 2019 at 3:34am
Instagram : tiroconhonda real good staff

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by cram on Jun 4th, 2019 at 10:30am
LOL I'm a bit late I'm not gonna put anything new on the table just here to share my opinion. I do believe in the story, but I think Goliath's height is a bit exaggerated. He probably was a tall guy but not that tall.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by slingbadger on Jun 5th, 2019 at 6:36am
According to the Latin Vulgate, he was 6 cubits and a span. A cubit is the length from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow. It would be a little different for each person.
  It also says that Goliath was hit in the forehead, then fell forward. It mentions nothing about the stone sinking into the forehead, like the KJV says.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Curious Aardvark on Jun 5th, 2019 at 10:18am
and david cut his head off - just to make sure :-)

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Kindor on Jun 6th, 2019 at 12:46am
There are many pictures of the valley of elah, where this battle took place, just do a search on yahoo. It is my belief that Goliath having a helmet of any kind, is not a valid argument for him to not be hit in the forehead, As he likely would have pushed his helmet up to see better, not taking David as a serious threat, and as for Goliath falling face down after being hit with a slingstone, as an army medic I can tell you that a bullit will not knock a forward moving soldier on his back, how much less a stone, smaller than an egg, would knock backward someone of goliaths stature.  His head would have rocked back, but not his body, it would have fallen forward. I believe it happened exsactly like it is described in the KJV Bible. He was done for, even before David lopped his head off with his own sword.  By the way, in " the complete works of Josephus" a famous historian, there is also an account of this story. That agrees with the Bible

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by slingbadger on Jun 6th, 2019 at 6:33am
Many "True Christians" here in America believe that the KJV is the one true Bible. According to them, it was written by Jesus himself, in English.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Kick on Jun 6th, 2019 at 6:46am
Wait... KJV stands for King James Version right? Do they... not know when King James ruled?

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by slingbadger on Jun 7th, 2019 at 6:29am
NO. They are very ignorant of history. It doesn't fit their view of the world.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by cram on Jun 7th, 2019 at 9:13am
LOL, what I meant was that they added a few more cubits to Goliath's height.

Title: Re: Is it real? David and Goliath
Post by Slingky on Aug 5th, 2019 at 11:42pm
Here's an interesting and somewhat measured article that reflects on 3 extra-biblical discoveries related to King David: https://theophilogue.com/2009/04/24/extrabiblical-evidence-for-king-david/

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