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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> strip sling
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Message started by Zwiebeltuete on Apr 11th, 2006 at 9:22am

Title: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Apr 11th, 2006 at 9:22am
I have read the article

Thomas Völling: Funditores im Römischen Heer. Saalburg-Jahrb. 45, 1990, 24-58.

which gives very interesting information about the sling in roman times, esp. the usage in the roman army. Older sources show thin slings. There are some very nice etruscan pieces showing braided slings with split pouches (the pouch made from three strings). The newer roman sources show at least mostly slings which I would call "strip slings". (Although this name could be confused with future developed slings which can be used to strip people.) The sling consts of a strip of some material which has no real pouch, but is maybe a bit wider in the middle than at the ends.

I know no other sources showing slings like that. Therefore I assume that these slings have lower performance than the thin ones. I tried to make a sling like that from an old bed sheet - one knot for the release, one knot for the finger loop - but the fabric does coil up. So it is not anymore a real strip sling. With that sling is my slinging at the moment as bad as with all my other slings. So that coiled up sling might not be that bad, but I do not know for sure. Leather might be more suitable to make a copy of the ancient slings as it does probably not coil up.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Leeds_Lobber on Apr 11th, 2006 at 10:19am
Images on Trajan's column show slings like this- they look just like strips of material as you say.

The problem with Later Roman art is that the Artists use 'conventions'. A lot of monuments show soldiers wearing all-in one breatplates, and Helms of the Attic Style. Such helmets went out of date hundreds of years before that. But if an artist wanted a picture that said 'Soldier' that's what he would draw.

It's a bit like the pictures of 'Soldier' you get in Kid's books - Toy Soldiers wear red & have bearskin Hats like 19th century English Soldiers. That ain't what MY toy soldiers look like, but when I see the picture I know what the artist means.

I wonder if the same thing happened with slings? All the carving needed to show a braided sling would be tricky - if the artistic convention was to show a sling as 'strip of cloth' it would save a lot of Chisel-time!

Pat

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by english on Apr 11th, 2006 at 11:39am
Zwiebeltuete - "onion bag."  Interesting stuff.  I can tell you that I made a sling this way out of bark.  It, frankly, is not very good.  I can post a pic of it as soon as my camera gets back from Turkey.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Apr 11th, 2006 at 11:56am
@Leeds_Lobber

Older art works show mostly only lines and a stone for a sling, e.g. on coins. (The detail of the etruscan slings is lucky for us.) So the people of past 1 AD had simple prior art to copy, but they invented a new style. Titus Livius names two types of slings, the not so good balearic and the good archaeic. That can be a hint that thin and wide slings existet around that time, but his description is not that good to identify them reliably.

@english

Would be interesting to see how a sling can be made from bark.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by english on Apr 11th, 2006 at 1:51pm
Well, I have a pic in the gallery of a frankly rather rubbish sling I made from bark.  It is braided quite simply, and works ok, but it's not the same style as just a flat piece as you describe.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by slingbadger on Apr 11th, 2006 at 5:54pm
If you can find it, there is a reprint of Bellafortis of Konrad Keyser, from the 1400's. In it,it shows both a sling and fustibal similar to the strap description.
 There are many other things, also. A paddleboat, war tanks and floating bridges. How much of this is theoretical, and how much was made, is unknown at this time.
 However, it does show that they were thinking people.  

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Gaius_Opius_Fugi on Apr 12th, 2006 at 7:01am
What are the differences between the Etruscan, Archaeic, and Balearic slings?  

Cheers,
Adam C.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Apr 12th, 2006 at 7:47am
Livius writes (original translation in German):

Therefore they (the Archaeics) threw the projectile (made from stone) further than the Balearic slingers and had a more secure and harder throw. And their sling was not a simple strap as these of the Balears and other peoples, but a tripple sling leather, which is hardened through multiple seams, so that the sling bullet is not whirled away with a soft strap, but when it gained momentum has a secure grip it is shot like from a sinew. (Liv. 38, 29, 5-6)

That is what the article tells about Archaeic and Balearic slings. That is probably all we can get.

Further there are pictures of slings. Most show no details, e.g. older representations show only thin lines. But where we can see details we can distinguish between two types:

1) A thin braided sling (braiding is shown) like they are made today (http://www.slinging.org/20.html), but with a different pouch. There the pouch is made of three strings. The middle string is thinner than the release and retention cords, maybe halve. The two outer strings are as thick as the release/retention cords. These detailed slings are depicted on Etruscan sources.

2) The strip sling where not much details are shown besides that they are a lot wider - maybe 5cm - than the sling in item #1. These are shown on later Roman sources.

Voelling now assumes that #1 is the Archaeic sling and #2 is the Balearic sling. That could be the case, but I am not really convinced. #2 is probably not as good as #1, but the descriptions of Livius do not fit that well. I think the probability is higher that both people made slings with the appearance of #1 but with different material, e.g. the Balearic simple linnen braided slings and the Archaeic more complex leather braided slings. That would also better fit what Strabo wrote about the material of the Balearic sling. If I remember correctly he wrote also they used hair and making strip slings from hair is probably to much of work.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by bigkahuna on Apr 12th, 2006 at 12:07pm
DAMN, ya got me all excited. I thought we had a new game like strip poker only with a sling :-[

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Taiki on Apr 12th, 2006 at 3:55pm
LOL :D every shot you miss you lose a pice of clothing :DLovely

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Gaius_Opius_Fugi on Apr 12th, 2006 at 4:05pm
Zwiebeltuete,

Thanks for the awesome response!  So the archaeic sling is just like the split pouch, but with an extra strip in the middle? Seems like a lot of sense to me, as it would grab the rock better than just a simple split pouch.  I have to go make one of these now.  

Thanks,
Adam C.

P.S.  Were the Greeks using woven pouch, and leather pouch with other material cord, slings?  Or was everyone just using split pouch styles or strap slings?  Anything about the Acarnanians other than they were supposedly good slingers?  If you know where I can do some reading on all of this, I'd really appreciate getting pointed in the right direction.  

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by siguy on Apr 12th, 2006 at 4:36pm
taiki: that is exactly what i thought. ;D

i must say though, that with the way most of us sling, we would all be lacking clothing very quickly. :-[

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Taiki on Apr 12th, 2006 at 6:04pm
[quote author=siguy link=1144761747/10#11 date=1144874188]taiki: that is exactly what i thought. ;D

i must say though, that with the way most of us sling, we would all be lacking clothing very quickly. :-[/quote]

i fail to see how this is a bad thing when being private ;D

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Gaius_Opius_Fugi on Apr 12th, 2006 at 6:42pm
If I remember correctly, the slinger from catal huyuk wasn't wearing any clothes either  ;D.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Taiki on Apr 12th, 2006 at 6:56pm
maybe he got the idea of strip slinging before we did :D

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by bigkahuna on Apr 13th, 2006 at 10:05am
I think the way they played it, if you hit someone you got to take their clothing. ;D

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Taiki on Apr 13th, 2006 at 10:25am
hmm also a nice idea but you better play with safe ammo then i mean whats fun about seeing a personwith a skullfraction naked :o

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by bigkahuna on Apr 14th, 2006 at 9:37pm
Makes them easier to cook. ::)

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Taiki on Apr 14th, 2006 at 9:41pm
hmmm yummie hand me a bit of that jogger would you ;D

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by bigkahuna on Apr 14th, 2006 at 11:17pm
Would you prefer an end cut? ;D

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Taiki on Apr 16th, 2006 at 8:52pm
naah just a pice of surloin please ;DLOL

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by bigkahuna on Apr 20th, 2006 at 1:53pm
Or HER loin? ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Taiki on Apr 20th, 2006 at 2:18pm
that would be nicer :P

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by lobohunter on May 2nd, 2006 at 7:20pm
talk about being off topic lol ;D
Now let me see if i get this right A strip sling is just a strap say a strap of leather with to slices in the middle where the pocket would be

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Taiki on May 3rd, 2006 at 10:27am
yeah it is..but our way was better :D Lol ;D

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by siguy on May 3rd, 2006 at 4:01pm
yes, lobohunter, like your belt sling from a while ago.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on May 3rd, 2006 at 4:39pm

wrote on May 2nd, 2006 at 7:20pm:
Now let me see if i get this right A strip sling is just a strap say a strap of leather with to slices in the middle where the pocket would be


There can be no slices seen on the ancient depictions. So I asume the material is soft enough.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by lobohunter on May 8th, 2006 at 7:35pm
So no slices? just a flat strap of soft leather? say deer hide?

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on May 8th, 2006 at 8:07pm

wrote on May 8th, 2006 at 7:35pm:
So no slices? just a flat strap of soft leather? say deer hide?


The depictions I saw looked to me like stone.  ;D But otherwise just a flat strap. On some depictions it looks like the strap is a bit wider in the pouch area with a very slow transition to the ends of the retention and release cords. On the depictions where the end of the retention cord is well visible there is no such thing as a finger loop shown, but I do not know how reliable the depictions are really in that point as the finger loop is a very basic and useful feature.

So e.g. just a strap of soft leather, 5cm (2") wide and 80cm (32") long, could be a version of that type of sling.

Somewhere here is also a thread about the Archaic and Balearic sling description. WHere the former is three-threaded and the later single-threaded. When seeing the three-threadedness as beeing only the pouch like the depicted Etruscan slings than the Balearic slings could not have had a split pouch like the above described strap sling. There is e.g. Strabo who writes the Balears used e.g. bast like material. If we combine this information there were woven or braided strap slings. (Strabo mentions more materials which I do not remember at the moment.)

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Gaius_Opius_Fugi on May 9th, 2006 at 6:38am

wrote on May 8th, 2006 at 8:07pm:
Somewhere here is also a thread about the Archaic and Balearic sling description. WHere the former is three-threaded and the later single-threaded.


Zwiebeltuete,

It probably has to do with late nights and exams this week, but I am not getting what you mean by the three-threaded and the single-threaded.  Are you talking about a single thread in the split pouch and three woven together in each "arm" of the pouch?  

Cheers,
Adam

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on May 9th, 2006 at 8:12am
There can be many reasions why you do not understand what I mean, e.g. my bad description.

Basically we understand as much the old texts as you did understand my text.  :D They are talking about one and about three cords or something similar. It is not clear from the text if there are three separate cords/ropes or if a cord is made/braided from three threads. When you look at depictions of slings there is an Etruscan sling which looks very similar to the braided sling shown in Bollinger's guide. The difference is that the pouch is not made from two, but from three strings. (Besides the missing knots the pouch looks similar to Lund's simple string sling.) Another type is seen often esp. on later depictions: a single strap of material without any slits and splits. Here the pouch (and everything else) is one "cord". That would fit the textual description of one/three something.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by lobohunter on May 15th, 2006 at 1:01pm
I just made A very effective strip sling from leather. It is 42 inches long from the center. Half a inch wide except the center wich is three inches wide. On one end I have a 5 inch slit in the center of that end, to use as a wrist loop

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Gaius_Opius_Fugi on May 15th, 2006 at 3:41pm
Aye curamba!

That is confusing....

So the archaic sling is a regular split pouch, Etruscan a split pouch with an extra string in the center, and Balearic a woven pouch or woven strap sling?  Just want to make sure I have these seperated correctly, because I want to make one of each for a display....

Also, do you mind giving me the references to each of the various types so I can look them up myself?  

Thanks,
Adam C.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on May 15th, 2006 at 4:10pm
It is asumed that Archaean == Etruscan (three cord split pouch) and Balearic == "pouchless" strap. All is seen in Voellings article. It is probably not allowed to copy it, but I will make drawings.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on May 24th, 2006 at 11:22am
The drawings are now at http://www.mbsks.franken.de/slinging/slinging.html#EtruscanSling

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by siguy on May 24th, 2006 at 1:41pm
i recently found a kid's bible book with a story about the david and goliath.  in it, there are some pretty detailed drawing of the sling that he is depicted as using.  the sling appears to be a strip sling with a pocket attached, without interupting the strip at all.  i will post pics when the other computer(and its scanner) is up and running again.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on May 25th, 2006 at 7:58pm
Based on Dan's braiding guide I made an Etruscan (possibly Archaean) sling. Main cords are with 12 strings like in Dan's description, but around the pouch I inserted another 18 strings. So the pouch consists of two outer straps with 12 strings each and one middle strap with 6 strings. The detailed description is at http://www.mbsks.franken.de/slinging/slinging.html#EtruscanSling . Photos of the sling will be available around monday.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on May 28th, 2006 at 8:04am
Now a photo of that sling:



More photos at the above mentioned page.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by siguy on May 28th, 2006 at 8:14am
that's a nice sling

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Jun 25th, 2006 at 2:53pm
My tablet woven sling is now done!



More information at:

http://www.mbsks.franken.de/slinging/slinging.html#LaterRomanSling

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Willeke on Jun 25th, 2006 at 2:56pm
That is a nice piece of sling you have there.
So it did work in the end.

Willeke

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Jun 25th, 2006 at 3:12pm
Yes, thanks. I got faster and got it more even at the end. I think the time for 10cm was at the end 20 minutes. But I still think having tablet woven once is enough.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by siguy on Jun 25th, 2006 at 4:48pm
that is a nice sling.   you say it doesn't work well?  that is a shame.  good thing it doubles as a belt.  ;D

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Jun 25th, 2006 at 6:03pm
It might be the weight or air drag, but I just did a quick test, so it could also just be that I am not used to it.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by siguy on Jun 25th, 2006 at 6:25pm
possibly

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Jun 25th, 2006 at 6:49pm
When whirling around the sling a lot of air is moved and I need more force than with my other slings.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Aug 2nd, 2006 at 7:34am
I practiced recently with the Etruscan sling and I think it is really nice. I bought cat toys in the form of small American footballs made from foam for demonstration. They can be slinged very well with that sling.

Btw. I want to show also underarm style because it is historically somehow documented and fits best to people with armour. Is there a good documentation availble which dosn't say "like softball"? I found a MikeG1 movie which is rather good, but more would certainly be better.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by nightweave on Aug 2nd, 2006 at 7:49am
Zwiebeltuete,

I have actually modified that area of the casting styles after you put your request on the discussion page.

Have a read of the new version if you still don't understand I I have Siguy working on my next project which is video's and movement pictures for each of the casting styles. (I am still looking for an artist by the way.)

If the new version isn't good enough please let me know.

nightweave.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Aug 2nd, 2006 at 8:53am
The description is rather short, so it is in my opinion good enough for knowing an underarm style when you see one, i.e. it is a good definition of this style. But it is not good as a guide to do this style because it has little detail. I am thinking about if it would be a good idea to have first a definition and then a guidance. Underarm like many other throws is in principle a whole group of techniques. Some make it so, some so. In the guidance there could be a specific, prooven underarm technique. After my bad Apache style movie I got so many additional information to the already much Apache style information on the guidance page. All that helped me very much. So even for this most simple style there is so much to tell about. So an underarm guidance should really be written by a person (or maybe even two) who is very experianced and good in this style.

Btw. who did the drawings for the figure-8? This a very good! Just the clothes are rather big and do therefore a bit conceal the main body movement.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by slingbadger on Aug 2nd, 2006 at 10:35am
Z-- Is it possible that you can weave in some slits where the projectile rests?? This will probably cut down on the air reistance.
  I found out about this when I made a reproduction of the Hedeby slings with the slits in the pouch. I got better distance.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by Willeke on Aug 2nd, 2006 at 11:43am
Johnny did the drawings for the fig 8 style, here is a link to the first time when they came on the forum: http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=1;action=display;num=1083929730

Willeke

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by nightweave on Aug 5th, 2006 at 4:41am
Zwiebeltuete,

Your suggestion is noted, but I doubt that there enough motivated, experienced slingers here to make each pages viable. (That's a challenge people's prove me wrong.) The aim of the casting styles page is to introduce each slinging style type I am going to eventually start bugging the artists on the forums for help with the page but not right now. My motion picture subject hasn't got back to me yet, so it can wait.

nightweave

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by siguy on Aug 5th, 2006 at 9:50am
nightweave, i may have already volunteered for this, but i will trace some of the videos for the casting styles once they are up.

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by nightweave on Aug 6th, 2006 at 7:40am
Siguy,

Thanks, on both efforts. (Yes you had volenteered for the videos)

By the by, lead glands are sooooooo much more fun than tennisballs.

If you could keep the progression across the wiki page like we have with Johnny's I would also appreciate that.

nightweave

Title: Re: strip sling
Post by siguy on Aug 6th, 2006 at 12:54pm
sure thing.  i am going to try to start working on them today, but i don't know if i can get my brother to help me out

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