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Message started by Douglas_The_Black on May 11th, 2005 at 7:23pm

Title: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 11th, 2005 at 7:23pm
i just got this book and it mentions Archemedies claws. (it might not be Archemedies it might be someone else i dont have the book on me now.) Archemedies made this giant lever that had a hook tied to a rope, and the hook would be droped into the water. This was all mounted on the docks or something. NOW here is where it gets a little odd. when an enemy ship would sail over the hook guys would then pull on this rope picking the ship out of the water shaking it a little then droping it back into sea, usaly the front of the ship going under and taking every thing with it.


i will mostlikely have the book back by tomorrow ill get some pic's and the right name.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Leeds_Lobber on May 11th, 2005 at 8:45pm
Archimedes it was, he reputedly used it against the Romans at the siege of Syracuse. Few years back a BBC TV program had a woman archaologist and a builder trying to recreate it. They did the usual stupid 'only three days to make it in ' thing to try and add some spurious excitement. What they came up with worked - so long as the boat was very small, and the crew were willing to sit still for 20 minutes while they got caught, then sit still for another 10 while they were lifted. Convinced by it I was not. Something more like a counterweight system was suggested but would have taken too long to build I guess!

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by lionheart on May 12th, 2005 at 2:48pm
Archemides made some great devices for the defense of that island, in cluding the 'claw', and a huge mirror which burned ships.  I wonder why that was never used in Crusader seiges; fired at a wooden gate to burn it to cinders, or moved over the top of walls, catching defenders in the heat.  If made with the right mirror shape it could be made to fire at ranges far exceeding any other seige weaponry.
Rik

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 12th, 2005 at 6:02pm
"a huge mirror which burned ships"


they say that is a mith :)


Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by S_ALLEN on May 12th, 2005 at 6:31pm
Because most of greek thought was condemned by the early church and even distroyed almost all we know of it today came from the Muslims.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by snapback on May 12th, 2005 at 8:04pm
yup mith busters busted the mirror trick.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Matthias on May 13th, 2005 at 2:51am
Myth busters (I'm going to get you guys spelling properly yet) is pretty entertaining, but I really wasn't impressed with their "busting" of this one. Sort of like when you give 5 visual arts students a chance to erect an obelisk in 3 days and use the result to prove categorically that the ancients had help from aliens. Those 5 shmucks couldn't build a 747 either, but we do it all the time. Just because it happened 2500 years ago, it doesn't mean that the people involved were untrained simpletons...

Did it happen? Probably not, but I'd be willing to bet that the concept was demonstrated on a reasonable scale. Sort of like ballistic missile defence...

Matthias

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Leeds_Lobber on May 13th, 2005 at 6:39am
Go, Spelling Moderator!

The TV Shows where "Brian, an archaeologist from Basingstoke and a band of alarmed looking locals who don't speak his language will try to recreate a Byzantine Greek Fire Thrower in just three days" always make me very angry indeed.

A really big mirror and the Southern Italian Sun are a powerful combination. I would not be surprised if this could be done. And I agree about the idea that the ancients were worse at things than clever old us  is a bad starting point for these things - they were wonderful at the things they needed to be wonderful at, and nothing concentrates the mind as much as military necessity !

Pat  


Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by hellier on May 15th, 2005 at 12:27am
It may not have been needed or designed to burn ships....imagine if you will being on board a vessel about to lay seige to a port when all of a suden each crewmember on board is suddenly blinded by great big flashes of light coming from the target...it'd be a bit hard to aim effectively after that.... :-/ dont you think...

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by TechStuf on May 15th, 2005 at 2:12am
I agree with Matthias....I've seen myth busters.....someone needs to bust their collective 'arse'.

They employ more crap science than many of those they seek to debunk.

The concept, though a challenge to reduce to practice, is certainly feasible.

8)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by tint on May 15th, 2005 at 3:09am
Hey Darth.....I mean Techstuff!  You are back after a walk on the WILD side.

;)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by TechStuf on May 15th, 2005 at 5:43am
Yeah,  I got over it.

Don't ask me how.

:o

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 15th, 2005 at 8:47am
i like hellier's idea alot better. You could probably equipe many men with mirror shields of polished bronze or something to blinde all of the sailors.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Stenny on May 15th, 2005 at 10:25am
I read that big mirrors were used, but that it's very hard to lit a ship aflame unless it's non-moving, otherwise you are losing the focus point. Blinding of sailors(if the mirrors were big and inward-curved, the blindness probably wasn't temporary) is much more doable.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by lionheart on May 15th, 2005 at 10:36am
I dont think the light would need to be on the ship for that long a time, try with a twig and a magnfying glass.  Also, if the shiops were cloese to shore, they would be moving fairly slowly so there would be little spray, and so the wood high up on the hull would be pretty dry.  Maybe a shot at the sails, or even along the oars; a line of singed oar ends flaling into the sea  ???
Rik

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 15th, 2005 at 12:28pm
you could light the sailors themselfs up. seeing the guy next to you suddenly catch flame would make me turn around.  :)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by britishslinger on May 16th, 2005 at 7:31am
you would start cooking and you skin would drip of your hair would burn and your chest would oven in your armour scary than arrows sticking in people

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 16th, 2005 at 8:49am
yes they would think god was on the enemys side and run. i know i would.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by VoiceInWilderness on May 16th, 2005 at 12:53pm
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mirrors.htm

Note the Spanish photo of the demonstration.


Very plausible......could easily have happened....perhaps inspiring the perceived necessitation of night landings for some time to come!

8)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by TechStuf on May 16th, 2005 at 2:07pm
They were able to start a boat on fire instantly with only 60 mirrors from 160ft. away.....




ffFFFWOOSHH!

8)


Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by MammotHunter on May 16th, 2005 at 2:21pm
They tried this one time on a TV show called Mythbusters, and couldn't get it to work, for whatever reason. They had a huge mirror, too.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by TechStuf on May 16th, 2005 at 3:40pm
Myth 'busters' couldn't bust a water balloon in a needle factory.

Oops.....ok, so maybe that's one myth they could bust.

Which is to say,  I challenge them directly to bust a water balloon in a needle factory.

buddum bum.

Thanks folks.....

I'll be here all week.



(insert collective groan here)



8)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by TechStuf on May 16th, 2005 at 4:00pm
Fun experiment.....buy cheap door mirror.....have a friend stand with his back to you at 20yrds away......hold mirror horizonally reflecting sun's rays at friends back.....now tilt ends of mirror inwards such that a bright 'bar' of light is projected on friend's (well covered) back.  


A small demonstration of what a simple assemblage of mirrors in a line, all aimed at the same target can do.


Having worked with mirrors and lenses for decades,  I have no doubt about the feasability of the Archimedes account.

8)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 16th, 2005 at 4:14pm
i saw that huge magnifying glass that tech had. I dont doubt your knowledge :)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by DuckofDeath on May 16th, 2005 at 4:40pm

wrote on May 16th, 2005 at 2:21pm:
They tried this one time on a TV show called Mythbusters, and couldn't get it to work, for whatever reason. They had a huge mirror, too.


Apparently the Mythbusters tackled the problem from scratch without researching previous attempts.  

I got interested in this subject a long time ago and recall reading a journal article in which a historian of science discounted the notion that Archimedes had pulled it off because those accounts came much later.  The fact that Archimedes might not have done it, however, didn't mean that it couldn't be done--and the historian cited modern attempts that did work.  The historian then pointed out that after some successful modern attempt, people always excitedly (and mistakenly) credited Archimedes with doing the same.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by TechStuf on May 16th, 2005 at 7:29pm
Good point  DoD......although it matters little if Archimedes actually did or not and to what degree if he did, it speaks volumes that the ancients had the knowledge they had.  Showing what truly can be accomplished with simple technologies in harmony with, instead of against, nature.


DtB,  I'll try and get a video up soon of that same lens melting a penny in 10seconds.

Many, many amazing things being done with light these days.......

A little 'pinch' of it goes a long ways.

8)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by lionheart on May 17th, 2005 at 2:49pm
Hmm, didnt seem to get that joke?
As for magnifying glasses, even in sunny Lancashire, in summer you can still easily lifht a fire with a magnifying glass and a bit of newspaper.
Rik

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 17th, 2005 at 6:59pm
a penney in 10 sec! wow i would love to see that.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by TechStuf on May 18th, 2005 at 2:17am
And you shall!

Just as soon as I can get these 'flyboys' in my area to flip me a patch of sunshine.


Peace,

TS

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by me on May 30th, 2005 at 7:29pm
When I was younger I was invited to go hunting at my church youth leader's cabin. One of the things I heard they had there was a large piece of special glass (like a super-powerful version of a magnifying glass) that could burn concrete. This is only what I heard but I respect the man probably more then any man except God, The Lord, and my Dad  ;D and dont doubt the veracity of his statement. TechStuff, I'd like to see this badboy you got melt a penny, are you gonna post a video of it? How big is the M. Glass?

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 30th, 2005 at 8:08pm
im very intrested in this now. i dont think archemedies would have mirrors but what about polished brass or copper? I'm going to give it a shot, any hints you could give me would be helpfull.

Lobo it would be cool to have a light forge :)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Shaun on May 30th, 2005 at 9:24pm
Techstuf, Is that a fresnel lens you are talking about? I love those things 8)  
A quick google search returned this  
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bclee/lens.html
I've got to get one of those

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by me on May 31st, 2005 at 12:39am
Is a light forge where you make light sabers? :)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on May 31st, 2005 at 8:23am
well you could have a real long lightsaber with one of those...hey a light shield or buckler to go with your saber! 8)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by lionheart on May 31st, 2005 at 11:37am
If this mirror trick was used,couldnt it be easily countered by simply reflecting the light back?
Rik

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Jun 1st, 2005 at 5:35pm
i dont know if they would of thought of that. i think that they would of seen that there sails and clothing where catching on fire say "oh shit" and then run. i know i would of.  :)

I a magnafining glass that i use to use to melt those green army men, with. today i broke it out of its storage and was burning other things with it and reflecting it at stuff with a mirror. I burnt my self pretty bad becase i was courious to how quickly it could burn. Trust me when i say it burns quick and hurts bad :)

Now that i acctuly cased harm to myself i want to make a verson of this primitve lazer. Should i have a perfectly round and smooth bowl made of brass, with a smaller brass mirror to take the light from the big mirrors and bounce it to places or should i have smaller brass mirrors angeld so that they reflect and bounce the light off of those into a smaller aiming mirror.  ???

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by me on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 1:34am
Doug atta boy, masochisim in the name of science!
No idea about your question but I was wondering if we actually know what kind of mirror Archimedes had.
He was supposed to be hundreds of years ahead of most scientists of his time so maybe he had something like we have today. Really have no idea, anyone else know?

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by lionheart on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 5:10am
Maybe this topic should be changed to Archimedes Mirror!
Whilst the foot soldiers would have fled from the 'burning light' at first, when the generals and 'brains' got together surely the would have come up with this?  After all, it wasnt the foot oldiers of Syracause who came up with htis idea, it was Archimedes, it is likely that the Syracausians would have been in equal awe of this weapon, just being glad it wasnt pointed at them!
Rik

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Jun 2nd, 2005 at 11:52am
i will have to get a picture of where i burned my arm with the magnafying glass. Its pretty cool, and the reason i was thinking brass is: its realitvely cheap and common, it is shiney, and they would of had it back then. It tarnishes real quick and you would think that they would keep there lazer around for future defense, so that there would be some achealogical remaines but who knows.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Hellfire on Jun 11th, 2005 at 11:37pm
I always figured that me and maybe about 30 of my friends could make flat mirrorlike shields, with a small hole, about the size of a quarter, in the upper part of the mirror, then extend a pipe, weld on a BB, like a shot gun sight, and have them stand in a baseball stand pointing at nearby trees or airplanes. I seriously bet you could burn something. ]
About those frehnel lenses, they are awesome. I saw some pictures of that in a book called Gadgets and Gizmos, challenge your inner geek, and a guy used a frehnel lense to burn holes in steel plate, and pennies

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Matthias on Jun 11th, 2005 at 11:45pm
Ever use a signaling mirror? All you need is the hole...

Matthias

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Jun 12th, 2005 at 10:32am
yes but would a signaling mirror have enough power to burn something. I mean a big signaling mirror.

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas on Jun 12th, 2005 at 1:16pm

wrote on May 11th, 2005 at 8:45pm:
...They did the usual stupid 'only three days to make it in ' thing to try and add some spurious excitement. ...

I'm REALLY tired of that too!

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Matthias on Jun 12th, 2005 at 3:23pm

wrote on Jun 12th, 2005 at 10:32am:
yes but would a signaling mirror have enough power to burn something. I mean a big signaling mirror.


Right if you had enough mirrors. I was talking about Hellfire's idea about making a complicated sighting arrangement...


wrote on Jun 11th, 2005 at 11:37pm:
...make flat mirrorlike shields, with a small hole, about the size of a quarter, in the upper part of the mirror, then extend a pipe, weld on a BB, like a shot gun sight...


It is a piece of cake to hit an ship/airplane with the reflected spot of a mirror using the "hole" method. That is what a signaling mirror is for!

Using flat mirrors, the temperature that you'll be able to hit is basically a function of the number of mirrors you have. Unless you can bend/focus the reflector, the size of the mirror affects the size of the spot.

Matthias

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Hellfire on Jun 12th, 2005 at 5:12pm
I'm right- it was a good idea.

It would basically look like a cross between a riot shield and a shotgun.
so long as all of my 30 friends were pointing at the same thing

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Matthias on Jun 12th, 2005 at 6:38pm
The hole helps you aim.... I don't understand what the pipe and BB for?

The technique for sighting a signaling mirror is pretty simple: look through the hole so that your target is centered. Tilt mirror until the reflection of the spot of light that came through the hole lines up with the hole. Fast and accurate! You only need one hole, and the inside of the mirror somewhat reflective as well.

Matthias

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Jun 12th, 2005 at 10:28pm
oh i thought you where talking to me :)

I have been playing with brass mirrors trying to make a "light lazer" with them. Do i need to angel all the focal ponts so they will all be the same? that is going to be hard. or at the very least time consuming :)

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Hellfire on Jun 12th, 2005 at 10:38pm

wrote on Jun 12th, 2005 at 6:38pm:
The hole helps you aim.... I don't understand what the pipe and BB for?

The technique for sighting a signaling mirror is pretty simple: look through the hole so that your target is centered. Tilt mirror until the reflection of the spot of light that came through the hole lines up with the hole. Fast and accurate! You only need one hole, and the inside of the mirror somewhat reflective as well.

Matthias

an extending pipe is to point the mirror the right way. A soldered-on BB is mostly for aesthetics, but if you point it like a shotgun- you should hit the right spot
If you are confused- look at a shotgun and imagine sawing off the barrel and perpendicularly sticking it out of a mirror and cutting a slit thru the mirror to see through towards the target

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by Matthias on Jun 13th, 2005 at 12:00am
Right, except the way I'm reading your explanation it won't work. The mirror doesn't "beam" the light straight forward like some sort of magic death ray, it just reflects it.

Imagine standing facing your target due south, and the sun is rising in the east. If you aim you mirror via shotgun device at the target, the sun-beam will hit somewhere off to the west. In order to hit the target, you need to aim the mirror at a point midway along the straight line connecting the sun and target. Since this is a "virtual" point, you can't aim the mirror effectively with a fixed sight.

The simple "signal mirror" style aiming method deals with all of this quite nicely. It is deadly accurate, and all you need is a small hole. Give it a try!

Matthias

Title: Re: Archemedies claw
Post by theostravos on Dec 13th, 2018 at 4:19pm

hellier wrote on May 15th, 2005 at 12:27am:
It may not have been needed or designed to burn ships....imagine if you will being on board a vessel about to lay seige to a port when all of a suden each crewmember on board is suddenly blinded by great big flashes of light coming from the target...it'd be a bit hard to aim effectively after that.... :-/ dont you think...



Regarding above... If my stone value mind works well. As far as I know, from the physicks in school, It was not the ships, initially. It was the sails and the covers, or shades that were usually made of straw and cloths. Hollow mirrors, checked for a distance in the see, big enough, could do the job. Problem is that the mirrors, was not of mercury as now. Polished extremely expensive and rather rare metal. So, as far as we know, only one was build.

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